Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Castaway
1 appearance
Chief fire officer and psychologist known for pioneering research on firefighter decision-making that shaped national policy.
On the island
Eight records
My first track is Girl on Fire by Alicia Keys. And this song is quite special to me because I've got a little girl, Gabriella, who's nine now. Going on 19 though, I have to say. And she really loves this track. She will blare it out on her iPad, bellowing it out at the top of her lungs, and it fills me with a really warm sense of pride because the song for me is about not stopping at what you think your limits are. It's about pushing past it.
So this song is Miente by Jay Balvin and Willie Williams. And the reason I chose this song is I did a bit of work in South America and there were a couple of fire services over there that were really interested in the research. So I'd gone over and presented and did some work with them out there. And I discovered Reggaton, which is just amazing. And this song was on consistently and I kind of remember getting really into it.
Bank RobberFavourite
So, this song is Bank Robber by The Clash. And I think it's one of my favourite all-time songs. And the reason I chose this track is it really reminds me of my father. Not because he was a bank robber. But there is a particular line in it where they say, Daddy was a bank robber, he never hurt nobody, he just wants to steal your money. He never stole money and I've got to make that really clear. He never hurt anyone, but he would always find a way around the rules. He'd never break one, but he'd always find his way around them. And so that's why I chose this one. It reminds me of my father.
Well, I love this track and it's called Samaritans by a band called The Idols. And I appreciate that there might be some listeners that aren't necessarily into this genre of music. And I would encourage you, please don't turn the volume down, listen to the lyrics, because they're very poignant. And the reason that I've chosen this track, it's about the toxicity of macho masculinity and the impact that that can have on people's mental health and how damaging it can be for people.
Oh, so this is Sex Pistols Anarchy in the UK. And not only do I really love this whole genre of music anyway, there was a guy called Ian that used to sleep rough at the same time that I was. There were a number of people, including him, who really looked out for me and I think really helped me to survive in that kind of environment. And sadly, he's no longer with us. He died whilst he was experiencing homelessness. But he was a special guy with a really good heart. And this song kind of reminds me of him.
So this song is Don't Look Back in Anger by Oasis. And the reason I chose this song is it reminds me of my darling, long-suffering husband, Mike. I had been really clear that I wasn't going to date a firefighter because, you know, you become mess table gossip. I can remember thinking, don't fall for him, just don't fall for him, because it's going to end in tears. And then, lo and behold, I ended up falling for the guy. And the night that we got together and decided that, you know, we wanted to have a relationship, this song was playing and it was the first song that we danced to.
This song is Stereophonics Local Boy in the Photograph and I had to have something that nodded to my Welsh roots being born and raised in Wales and Stereophonics. Well, you don't get much Welsher than the phonics unless you glass Welsh cakes on. Or Welsh rare bit. So it is a nod to my roots, but also [the point about this song is] it's talking about a group of friends who discover that their friend has been killed by a train. And the point about it is you always think it's going to happen to somebody else. This tragedy, it never happened to you. And certainly what my career has shown me in a multitude of ways is that actually it can happen to you.
My final disc is Toots and the Maytals. 5446 was my number. I love this song firstly. I just love that proper old school Jamaican ska music. But I love the power of perspective in this song. And certainly when I was experiencing homelessness. That perspective of people that were looking at the people that were my community and judging and fearing and crossing the street to avoid, and they were the people who were my friends and who I shared some really warm moments with and and it's often the case that people with the least share the most and that was certainly our perspective. We kept each other safe. So it is that song about perspective and challenging what you think is the perspective and walking a mile in someone's shoes before you judge them.
In conversation
Presenter asks
2:24So almost 20 years in the fire service. What is it that you love about your job?
Everything. Probably for me, the privilege of being trusted by people to know what to do when they're quite literally having the worst day that they've ever experienced. Whether they're hurt or injured or in pain, afraid they might not make it through, they might have just seen a loved one lost. It's us that they trust to come in and help to make it better or at the very least stop it getting any worse.
Presenter asks
5:34It was working as a firefighter that first sparked your interest in psychology. How did it happen?
I had a really harrowing incident actually that completely changed the direction of everything for me. My husband and I were both firefighters on neighbouring stations and one day I was called to an incident where a firefighter had been severely burned and there was a one in four chance that it was him. And I can remember the bells going down and going into the appliance bay and a couple of the guys were already at the teleprinter and you know when you can just tell by the look on someone's face that something's wrong. Anyway they told me what it was as I was kind of pulling on my my jacket and pulling my arm through the sleeves and I can remember thinking, oh my god, I might actually be one of those people that we see every single day who wake up to their cornflakes and a normal morning only for their whole world to be ripped apart and it was horrendous and I got in the truck and we drove there and for the entire journey it was all I could think about and the funny thing is I was torn between the role of a loved one and the role of a responder because I also had to function when I got the other side. Anyway we we got there and I jumped off the truck and I could see this pair of legs with these boots sticking out with a huddle of firefighters around them and I couldn't tell who it was. I couldn't see anyone's face at that point and I can remember grabbing the oxygen cylinder to run over and I bit down on my lips so hard to stop myself crying that I've still got a scar inside there to this very day and then I saw Mike stand up and I felt this overwhelming sense of relief that it wasn't him but as soon as I had that sense of relief I was flooded with this sense of guilt because the guy that was injured he wasn't just a colleague he was our friend and I felt like not wanting it to be Mike I felt like I'd wished it on him and I found that really difficult to cope with and but to try and cope with it then I started to look at what we could do to stop it happening to anyone else and naïvely I thought well maybe I can kind of find a better burns pack and we'd be better prepared. But when I started looking, what I found was incredible that 80% of injuries across all industries, not limited to just fire, happened from human error. That's not a problem with a piece of equipment or a faulty policy or a flawed procedure, but a human mistake. And in my world, that meant people were getting hurt. And that's when I started to look at what we could do to help reduce that. But, you know, I left home at 15, left school at 16, and further education wasn't a luxury I could afford. So I had to start again at the bottom and did a degree all the way up to a PhD to try to understand this area more. And after my PhD, that's when we started to do the research nationally and really kind of understand what was going on in people's heads when they were making these kind of decisions.
The keepsakes
The book
Ernest Hemingway
The reason for this book is I think it's such a powerful story of hope and resilience and mental toughness that it's something that really resonates with me … every time I read it I take something else from it on a different level. So I think I could probably repeatedly read it and never get bored.
The luxury
my luxury item is going to be my family photo album. Because I thought originally, well, maybe I could bring Gabby and Mike with me. And then I thought, well, that would be a really selfish thing to do, because then they'd be stuck in isolation.
Presenter asks
11:53You grew up in Cardiff, but your parents had met in London. That's wow. Where did [your dad] come from?
He came from Israel. His parents are from Morocco and he was the first in the family to be born in Israel. And he then came over here. And he was so clever. He was like a math genius and he had a photographic memory and he was just the most charismatic person. And when he first came over, he didn't even have anywhere to stay. You know, he slept on the tube a couple of times until he got settled. But he was incredibly good, not just at reading cards, but reading people. And he discovered he had a real affinity with playing poker and blackjack. You know, I certainly can't say how or why he became so good at it, but he had a very good memory and he was very good at math, so I'll let people come to their own conclusions on that one.
Presenter asks
15:40So your childhood, which had been very happy, was derailed when you were just three. Your dad found out that he had a brain tumor. Obviously, you were tiny when it happened. What do you know about his diagnosis now?
It was so hard because we were so young and they were so happy and they completely idolized each other and [m]y mum had often kind of reflected back and said, you know, they used to say that they were so lucky and they couldn't believe how lucky they were and then all of a sudden this this thing happened and because of the location of the brain tumour, it was in his prefrontal cortex, it affected his behaviours and it affected the risks that he took, it affected the decisions that he made and it affected his personality a bit as well. So not only did you see the kind of physical deterioration of somebody with cancer throughout the years as he got iller and iller and it spread, you also saw that kind of cognitive degeneration and the impact on his personality and I think in a way it's like it took away part of his soul. I've never had a conversation with my dad as an adult, so I don't know, you know, the reality of who he is. I get that from other people who knew him and the stories that are passed down. And I look back at Gabby, because I was nine when he died, and she's nine now. And I kind of look at Mike and I think, by me, you're a couple of years older than my dad was when my dad died. And you kind of replace yourself into adulthood and think, you know, and I started, um, I started doing this thing actually where I set up an email account for her and every so often I'll email her just with thoughts and musings or something that's happened. And I've got her password stashed away safely. And I think, you know, when she hits a certain point in her life, maybe when she has kids herself, then I'll send it to her so she'll have access to all this. But mainly that if anything happened to me, if anything happened, if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, then she'd have some conversations with me as an adult. And I think that's the one thing that I took from it, is the finality of death and the reality of our own mortality.
Presenter asks
21:31As you said, by your mid-teens it had become impossible for you to stay at home. You found yourself selling the big issue and homeless. At what age had that happened?
It wasn't long before my 16th birthday and there were some really, really dark, difficult times. And in fact, one of my teachers saw me selling the big issue, kind of made eye contact, then put his head down and crossed the road to avoid me. And I kind of knew at that point nobody, actually nobody cared.
Presenter asks
30:37What was it about the fire service in particular that appealed to you? Because you applied to 31 different fire services. Yeah. You know, you were really determined to get in.
I wanted to rescue others in a way I felt like no one had been able to rescue me. And, you know, there could have been a number of fields where you could argue you do that. I think social workers do an amazing job every single day and do that. But I'd grown up in an environment where I was told not to trust a social worker. Definitely not the case now. The police? That was never really going to happen. When you experience homelessness, then you can experience some other challenges as well. And the idea when you're kind of sat there and you are completely desperate and you've got a police officer that moves you on. I think the world of the police now, I really do, but I didn't always have a brilliant experience at that point in my life.
“My best advice to anybody facing adversity is be brave. Being brave doesn't mean not being afraid of something. Being brave means doing something even though you're afraid.”
“It was so hard because we were so young and they were so happy and they completely idolized each other and [m]y mum had often kind of reflected back and said, you know, they used to say that they were so lucky and they couldn't believe how lucky they were and then all of a sudden this this thing happened and because of the location of the brain tumour, it was in his prefrontal cortex, it affected his behaviours and it affected the risks that he took, it affected the decisions that he made and it affected his personality a bit as well. So not only did you see the kind of physical deterioration of somebody with cancer throughout the years as he got iller and iller and it spread, you also saw that kind of cognitive degeneration and the impact on his personality and I think in a way it's like it took away part of his soul.”
“I think it's fair to say that when somebody goes to war with their demons everyone around them gets hit by shrapnel and that was certainly the case with our family. And when I was 15 I found myself sleeping rough because it was a better alternative to the one that I was experiencing and I don't blame my mother in any way shape or form because she was ill.”
“I can remember just waiting by the bin and waiting for someone to chuck one in and then just quickly darting in and grabbing it. And I can remember people looking at me with disgust, like, how can you eat out of a bin? And I can remember firing back a look, thinking, how can you let your fellow human be so hungry that you'll stand by and look on in disgust when they're eating out of a bin? And it was just such a dehumanising experience because people would walk past you like you're not there, like you're some kind of ghost, like you don't matter.”
“But make eye contact, say hello. Don't just see the figure in front of you. See the human being. That's someone's son or daughter there. Very possibly someone's mother or father. You know, they're a person.”
“I wanted to rescue others in a way I felt like no one had been able to rescue me.”