Mina Smallman

Speaker 40:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:05

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were castaway to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the activist Mina Smallman. She was a teacher for twenty years, before following her faith and training for the priesthood. In twenty thirteen she became the Church of England's first woman of colour to be appointed an archdeacon, serving South End in the Diocese of Chelmsford.

Presenter1:03

But it's as a mother that she became a campaigner.

Presenter1:06

In twenty twenty, her daughters Biba and Nicole were murdered in a senseless attack after a birthday picnic in a local park.

Presenter1:14

The horror of her daughter's death at the hands of a complete stranger was compounded by the news that two policemen who were guarding the crime scene posed for and posted selfies with Biba and Nicole's bodies in the background. They were later jailed for misconduct.

Presenter1:30

When Friends first reported her daughters missing, the police didn't launch an official search for them, and it was their loved ones who eventually found them.

Presenter1:38

On hearing the news of her daughter's death, she says she simply screamed.

Presenter1:43

Four years on, that scream has turned into a demand for change, an end to violence against women and girls, and for reform of the police. She says, I'm here to speak out, to fight for a better tomorrow, and make sure that Bieber and Nicole have not died in vain. And I believe that if my girls could see me now, they would be saying, Yeah, go for it, Mum. Meena Smallman, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me. You're most welcome. So, Mina, campaigning wasn't a path that you'd envisaged for yourself and you describe yourself, I think, as a reluctant activist. How have you managed to turn yourself into such an effective one?

Mina Smallman2:21

Every time I hear that a woman

Mina Smallman2:24

has been murdered at the hands of a man, a woman, or a girl.

Mina Smallman2:31

I go into at least two days of mourning because I go back to that moment in time.

Mina Smallman2:39

And then I come out, right, okay, can I help these people?

Mina Smallman2:46

This isn't for everyone, you know, when you are in this tragedy.

Mina Smallman2:50

I know I'm unusual that I'm doing this.

Mina Smallman2:54

But it's only because I've been equipped to do it.

Mina Smallman2:57

I you know, my training as a drama teacher, as a priest.

Presenter3:01

Dear.

Mina Smallman3:01

I find it easy.

Presenter3:02

Yeah.

Mina Smallman3:05

I've always challenged authority. Don't tell me what I can and I can't do.

Mina Smallman3:12

Don't tell them what they can and they can't do.

Mina Smallman3:16

But it was the reaction from meeting women who have lost their daughters.

Mina Smallman3:23

They are not in a position to do what I do, but the love and support I receive from them is they are saying, you speak for me, I can't do what you do, but thank you for doing it.

Presenter3:34

But You will talk to people about your story, even if it's just an audience of one. There's one car journey that I heard about. So you and your husband Chris were being driven back to Ramsgate after a T V interview, and you got the sense that the the driver he thought you were a bit of a police basher, I think.

Speaker 13:42

Okay.

Speaker 13:46

Yeah.

Mina Smallman3:46

Yeah.

Mina Smallman3:51

It was really funny. By chance, we were given a luxury car, T V screens, you have everything you've got. And I thought, all I want to do is watch a film. I was absolutely exhausted. It's about a two and a half hour drive. I sat down and he said, Oh, so what have you been doing today? And I said, Well, I've been doing an interview about and

Mina Smallman4:15

He said, I don't go for this police bashing. And that was it.

Presenter4:19

You were off.

Mina Smallman4:20

I was off and Chris fell asleep.

Mina Smallman4:23

And when we were like 20 minutes away, I was still talking this drive of me and him were having this exchange.

Mina Smallman4:30

And how did it

Presenter4:30

And how did it go? Did you talk him round?

Mina Smallman4:32

Yeah, if it takes one man at a time, because that man

Mina Smallman4:37

He may know twenty other men.

Mina Smallman4:40

who all know twenty other men, and he will now know the story and know that I am not bashing the police.

Mina Smallman4:48

But we all have a part to play.

Mina Smallman4:52

Yeah, he he did turn around. He did. We ended up good friends at the end of the journey. Oh, I love that. It's time for your first disc, Mina. What have you chosen? It's uh Janet Kaye's Silly Games.

Mina Smallman5:04

As a a young teenager, we were all listening to Lovers Rock.

Mina Smallman5:09

My first husband was from Jamaica. His parents became my chosen parents. And Biba's favourite song was Hey Fatty Boom Boom. So the genre of reggae music for me is key. It holds a very special place in my heart.

Mina Smallman5:30

What do you

Mina Smallman5:33

For so long it's a shame.

Mina Smallman5:39

Four babies.

Mina Smallman5:42

Every time I hear your name.

Mina Smallman5:49

Co the pain

Mina Smallman5:52

Boy, how it hurts me.

Presenter5:57

Janet Kaye and Silly Games. Mina Smallman, you were born in London in nineteen fifty six. Your father, Hector, who was known as Billy, was Nigerian. Your mother, Catherine, was Scottish. How did the two of them meet?

Mina Smallman6:08

Uh

Presenter6:09

Yeah.

Mina Smallman6:09

They met in Manchester because they were in the same jazz band. My father was in the jazz band for recreation. He played the drums.

Mina Smallman6:18

And my mum was an amazing singer, so she was the lead singer. Complete opposites. My mum a real firecracker. My dad very conservative, quiet. But they were both very attractive people and had that in common and just fell for each other. What were they doing in Manchester?

Mina Smallman6:37

Well, my mum had moved down from Scotland. She already had um my sister Anne. Her father had remarried. Um her mother had died when she was uh fourteen. She then moved to Manchester to be with her dad.

Mina Smallman6:53

But it didn't work out really. And so but my father was studying medicine.

Presenter6:59

You've described your dad as quiet and academic, and he taught you to be proud of your heritage and your identity from quite an early age while you were still at infant school, I think. What did he tell you?

Mina Smallman7:09

I didn't know I was black. I was brought up by a white.

Mina Smallman7:12

Foster family, and you know, you see yourself as the people around you. It was never brought to my attention. So, this is from when you were nine months old or so to when you were about five.

Presenter7:18

So this is

Presenter7:22

Hmm.

Mina Smallman7:23

And so when I went to school, they read a book. It was Storytime and it was Little Black Sambo. The pictures in that book are so

Mina Smallman7:33

cartoon like of caricatures of of black people, you know, huge lips, huge nose, with a bone through it as well. So the kids were chastising me in the playground, calling me little Black Sambo.

Mina Smallman7:48

And I found it upsetting, and I went home and I said, Dad, guess what they're calling me?

Mina Smallman7:53

And so he said to me,

Mina Smallman7:56

You don't look like that. You look like Queen Cleopatra, and she was the most beautiful woman in the world.

Mina Smallman8:03

I had no idea who Queen Cleopatra was, but I knew what a Queen was. So when I went round the playground I was saying to everybody, I'm Cleopatra.

Presenter8:07

Yeah.

Presenter8:14

Quite right too. So, your parents were chalk and cheese. We've got a bit of a sense of your father. Tell me about your mother, Catherine. What was she like?

Mina Smallman8:22

She was amazing really, but she had mental health issues.

Mina Smallman8:27

She had a lot of internal anger about her situation. She had a difficult upbringing, so she was a late baby and she was rejected by her mum. My grandfather was a miner and he was the one who really reared her. Brothers and sisters were a lot older.

Mina Smallman8:45

And she actually found

Mina Smallman8:47

Her mother, who had gassed herself, she came home and found her on the kitchen floor.

Speaker 18:53

Hmm.

Mina Smallman8:55

And she ended up, I'm sure, looking for love.

Mina Smallman8:58

Having an illegitimate baby. She was jilted. Yeah. She was jilted.

Speaker 19:01

This is actually a big system.

Mina Smallman9:04

by Anne's father. And so she had a lot of

Mina Smallman9:08

Anger issues.

Presenter9:10

You describe her as amazing, and it's so nice to hear you use that word, but having that kind of volatile, complicated parent.

Mina Smallman9:16

Complicated pet

Presenter9:17

They can be someone that when you're old enough to understand it, you can admire and you can feel positive about, but difficult for a child who's looking for stability from that person.

Mina Smallman9:26

Yeah. Eventually my parents separated, but the issue was I was well behaved, never got into trouble, so I often got forgotten.

Mina Smallman9:37

Anne was very difficult. She had a difficult childhood.

Mina Smallman9:41

And so I would get the lash back.

Mina Smallman9:45

from my mum for the frustration that Anne was giving her.

Mina Smallman9:51

And Andrew, my brother, where he came along seven years later and he was the boy that she'd always wanted. So so what you so you got the brunt, you know, you say the lash back. Was that physical then? Yeah, it was physical and emotional. She could be incredibly cruel.

Presenter10:02

Yeah.

Presenter10:06

How did you process that? How did you cope with that as a little girl?

Mina Smallman10:09

I found alternatives and I met my first husband when I was quite young, uh, thirteen, and his mum oh my goodness.

Mina Smallman10:19

Her Jamaican name was Precious, and it couldn't have been more perfect for her, because she really was precious, and she took care of me like her own, and I loved her, and always will.

Presenter10:33

Mina, let's take a minute for some more music. It's time for your second disc. Tell us what we're going to hear next and why you're taking it with you to the island.

Mina Smallman10:40

Handel's Messiah was introduced to me by my sister Anne, who came out as gay in the sixties.

Mina Smallman10:48

and got into drugs and had to go into an institution. And one of the things that they did there was music therapy.

Mina Smallman10:59

And so when she came out So this is like a rehab, is it? Yes. And so she got this little portable record player.

Mina Smallman11:07

And one day

Mina Smallman11:09

Once she was home, she said, Mina, come and have a listen to this.

Mina Smallman11:14

And this music gave me a window into

Mina Smallman11:20

Paradise. It was a moment of sheer bliss and shared peace that me and my sister shared together.

Presenter12:25

I Know That My Redeemer liveth from Handel's Messiah, performed by Dame Joan Sutherland with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt.

Presenter12:34

Mina Smallman, as you mentioned, your parents placed you in foster care in Essex when you were nine months old. At that time it wasn't uncommon for West African kids to be privately fostered while their parents established themselves in this country. Your foster parents were Bill and Rose Peaty, and you lived with them until you were five. What do you remember about being part of their family?

Mina Smallman12:54

I'm one of the fortunate ones. I mean, I know that many children of colour who were put under the same situation had horrendous times, but I had an idyllic childhood. Bill worked at the Fords factory, as did his two sons, and Rose was a stay-at-home mum. Everything had a routine. Wash day was Monday.

Mina Smallman13:21

I remember shelling peas. I used to eat more than I shelled, I think. Sweet peas that would be cut and brought in. I still love that smell. And apparently, my family would take me home for weekends and

Mina Smallman13:35

I had no recollection of that, and Anne said to me, Don't you remember? As soon as you'd arrive this is in Cricklewood you would walk straight into the sitting room, you would open the sideboard, you'd put your hand in, take your dummy out, put it in your mouth.

Mina Smallman13:54

I never had a dummy when I was with the Peaties.

Mina Smallman13:57

So I obviously

Presenter13:59

My office felt I needed soothing.

Mina Smallman14:02

I needed soothing.

Presenter14:02

And what was life like in that house in Cricklewood? How would you describe your home life?

Presenter14:09

Chaotic.

Mina Smallman14:10

Uh

Presenter14:10

Yeah.

Mina Smallman14:10

The Day to Day Living

Mina Smallman14:12

was very

Presenter14:14

Yeah.

Mina Smallman14:14

fraught, very lonely. Yeah.

Presenter14:16

Yeah.

Mina Smallman14:16

Uh

Presenter14:16

What was happening because you you they'd met when your dad was at medical school. That's right. But but that must have not worked out because he did didn't pursue that career.

Mina Smallman14:23

No, as I was told, he was the youngest son and his father died while

Mina Smallman14:30

He was studying.

Mina Smallman14:32

But he didn't inherit all of what he could have done, and so he had to switch from medicine to electrical engineering.

Mina Smallman14:42

And I don't think he ever really got over it.

Presenter14:45

Electrical engineering must have been a good, steady job, but money was still really tight at home. Why was that?

Mina Smallman14:51

We found out later that he had two wives in Nigeria.

Mina Smallman14:57

He had a son to one and a daughter to another.

Presenter15:01

Okay.

Mina Smallman15:01

So you send it.

Presenter15:01

So he was sending money back.

Mina Smallman15:02

He had to. Being uh a Nigerian person of middle class, you would bring shame on your family if you didn't provide.

Presenter15:13

Your life at Crookerwood, the ramifications of that were this kind of instability and volatility. Your parents split up eventually.

Mina Smallman15:21

Hmm.

Presenter15:21

How did your mum make ends meet? How did you support the three of you?

Mina Smallman15:25

Well, you have to give her credit where credit's due. She was a a worker. So she used to do factory work.

Mina Smallman15:33

And I found out later, to subsidize our income, she was was a sex worker.

Presenter15:40

Right.

Mina Smallman15:40

I was able to put the dots together and she could have been anything highly educated and she put herself through doing the test for the GPO and then finally she was one of the first to operate computers. So she was a computer programmer. So she made good in the end. So she made good. I wonder about your perspective on your relationship with her.

Presenter16:00

Yeah.

Mina Smallman16:08

It's so complex when you've grown up in an abusive relationship. An abuser generally isn't abusive all the time.

Mina Smallman16:17

unconsciously as a victim of that, you're blaming yourself. I must have done something wrong. I must have caused this. Why doesn't this person love me? And so you're constantly trying

Mina Smallman16:31

to get their attention, to love you.

Mina Smallman16:35

It's time for disc number three, Mina. What have you chosen? Well, I became a Mormon.

Mina Smallman16:41

I found comfort, and this is another one of these chosen families.

Mina Smallman16:45

In the Mormons, and the music coordinator she loved theatre and she said, I've got a ticket for Blood Brothers. It's one of my favourite plays. Would you like to come with me? For people who don't know, it's about twin boys that are separated at birth. You've got the one twin that stays with the Liverpudlian mum in poverty, and you've got Edward, who's given to the middle-class family adopted. And it's the struggle that the working-class mum has. This song that we're going to listen to in a minute, it's called Easy Terms. And every time I hear it, I well up with tears because it's about someone who is.

Mina Smallman17:33

Using not appropriate debtors, you know, people who give you money.

Presenter17:38

Mm-hmm.

Mina Smallman17:39

I remember living through this myself. My mum would have borrowed money and he'd be he'd come round for the money and my mum would say, Go downstairs and say I'm not in.

Mina Smallman17:50

and it just reminded me of how hard it must have been for my mum not to be able to provide what she would have loved to provide, and the sleepless nights she must have had about how she was going to keep everything together.

Presenter18:08

Only mine until

Presenter18:12

The time comes round to pay the bill.

Presenter18:18

Then I'm a f Uh

Speaker 118:19

Ah

Presenter18:21

Yeah.

Speaker 118:21

What can be paid must be returned.

Speaker 118:27

You never ever learn that nothing's yours on easy terms.

Presenter18:39

Easy Terms from Willie Russell's Blood Brothers performed by Barbara Dixon.

Presenter18:44

Minus Mollwin, given that life at home was difficult and often pretty stressful, I wonder whether school was a bit of a refuge for you.

Mina Smallman18:52

Did you enjoy it? Oh, I loved it. Because it was normal. It was predictable. I threw myself into school. I joined every single club.

Mina Smallman19:02

that you could possibly I was in the netball team, the Rounders team, country dancing. Y I did everything, athletics, the acting, the I used to put on my own improvised plays.

Presenter19:11

I used to

Presenter19:14

But you left school, Mina, when you were sixteen. By then you were going out with an older boy called Herman Henry. You had two daughters, Biba and Monique, before you were twenty, but you were determined to get back into education, and you took your O and A levels at college. What was driving you?

Mina Smallman19:29

I just thought, I need more. I need more stimulation. So I went back to school, basically, because I was going to follow the model of my mother-in-law, Precious, who was a nurse. And of course, I was in a college with all these naughty teenagers who were doing retakes, who had mucked about in class. And they were disrupting the lessons. And these lecturers weren't equipped to you know, they were used to teaching people who wanted to learn. So I would

Mina Smallman20:09

stand up and say, right, I want to listen to this. If you don't want to listen, you leave now. I'm paying for this and you're spoiling it. And so be quiet. And little did I know, all the lecturers had got together and said,

Mina Smallman20:23

You know she wants to be a nurse. She's a born teacher, isn't she? And so they conspired to get me to do their access course, which led to s teaching. But

Presenter20:36

You taught at so many schools. You had a 20-year career. What kind of teacher were you?

Mina Smallman20:41

I was the scary one. You know, if I sent for you, kids would all go, What have you done? If I walked down the corridor, the kids would say, Mrs. Come out

Mina Smallman20:51

I was the go-to for the dyslexics, the ADHD, fair and firm.

Presenter20:58

You'd study for your English and Drama degree at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. Who were you hanging out with back then?

Mina Smallman21:04

Good friends of mine were Jason Isaacs,

Mina Smallman21:09

James Purefoy

Mina Smallman21:11

I could I could just go on.

Presenter21:13

Yeah.

Mina Smallman21:13

A lot of people apply for the

Mina Smallman21:17

teaching course hoping that they may get some kind of acting experience.

Mina Smallman21:23

But I just wanted to be a teacher. That's what I wanted. And so this particular year, organised by Jason Isaacs, he put together a play called Barm and Gilead. It was going to be the premiere of it at the Edinburgh Festival. So three of us decided we would apply to be the singers in this particular play, and we got in.

Mina Smallman21:52

And we ended up going to the Edinburgh Festival.

Mina Smallman21:55

The fringe, and we were an a cappella group, and we taught the whole cast, which was huge.

Mina Smallman22:03

These songs, Barman Gilead and Amazing Grace. And we'd been doing street theatre and singing. And we were coming back and we were going over this bridge in Edinburgh. I looked down and there was a Scottish pipe and drum just putting their stuff back on the van. And so I shouted down to them, play us a tune. And they said, no, we're going home now. We're going home now. Oh, Gawn, play us a tune. We sing Amazing Grace. Could you... No, no, no, no. So they shouted back, you sing it. So we sang down to them.

Mina Smallman22:44

And as in it was a soul version of it, and as we're singing it down to them, gradually they start taking the instruments off the van and start playing. And so we're still looking down at them, and they're playing, and we're singing. And when we finished, there was this roar of applause. And when we turned around, we just the whole bridge was covered in people who'd been listening to this.

Mina Smallman23:16

And it was the most amazing thing, I think. I will remember it always.

Presenter23:22

Well, I think you'd better, on that note, Meana, introduce your next disc for us. Are we going to hear it?

Mina Smallman23:27

Yes. So as a a good Scottish girl, I love the bagpipes and the drums, and so we're going to listen to Amazing Grace from the military band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.

Presenter24:13

The military band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards with amazing grace.

Presenter24:19

Mina Smallman, your first marriage was volatile and that ended in nineteen eighty nine. You became head of drama at an all-boys school around that time, and I think that is where you first encountered an English teacher called Chris Smallman. Did sparks fly between the two of you straight away? No.

Mina Smallman24:39

In actual fact, the head took me to the staff room and Chris was in there. The head then, mister Connop, said, Oh, I'd like to introduce you. This is William who's come for an interview to be our drama teacher. And so Chris said, What happened to the other one?

Mina Smallman25:00

And I could see the head's face like

Mina Smallman25:02

Wha what don't say that.

Speaker 125:04

Say that

Mina Smallman25:05

And um so he then hurriedly said, Oh, because Chris actually teaches a few periods in the drama, so you'd be working together.

Mina Smallman25:15

So when I left, the school that I was currently at said, oh, how was it? I said they were lovely, but I met this weird guy.

Mina Smallman25:23

Who apparently teaches some of my drama? I said, he's a bit of a twit, actually.

Speaker 125:24

You apparently

Presenter25:31

Well, something worked because you got married in nineteen ninety two and you had your daughter, Nicole Nicky, later that year. Your relationship with your own mum had been very fraught at times. Who did you model your mothering on?

Mina Smallman25:46

Oh, it was Mummy Petey. You know, my mothering skills and my

Presenter25:50

And so you're fostering.

Mina Smallman25:50

Yeah.

Mina Smallman25:52

Everything about the way I am as a mum.

Mina Smallman25:55

Comes from that and also Herman's mum, Precious. And Biba and Monique, well, Monique was an accident, she's my little gift, as was Nikki. But Bieber was planned. I actually wanted to create a family. I was desperate to have someone to love, and I always believed that if I loved my daughter and my children, they would love me back forever. That's the security I wanted.

Presenter26:22

Yeah.

Mina Smallman26:22

Uh

Presenter26:22

And your faith had always been, you know, in the background of your life. I know you went to Sunday school when you were a little girl. That was another you know, the school clubs all all week and then Sunday school on Sunday was a big thing. You started theological training while you were still teaching. Why was it important to you to follow that spiritual path at that point?

Speaker 126:28

Yeah.

Speaker 126:29

And then Sunday school and so

Speaker 126:34

Yeah.

Mina Smallman26:35

But

Mina Smallman26:39

Point.

Mina Smallman26:40

M

Mina Smallman26:41

It spoke to me. You know, I've met Christians and know Christians who've never had the still small voice. I felt that.

Mina Smallman26:50

And I know that it's true.

Mina Smallman26:52

Everything I am now.

Mina Smallman26:55

I owe to this this force beyond our comprehension that has held me during my darkest times.

Mina Smallman27:07

And you were ordained as a priest in 2006. Where was your first parish? Embarking, so Thamesview Estate. I knew instantly, like I knew the kinds of kids that I wanted to teach, that I didn't want to be in a posh parish. I wanted to be with people who didn't have it all, but could have it all if just someone believed in them.

Mina Smallman27:30

and we went to get fish and chips the day we moved in. And I went up to the local precinct and I said, I'm the new vicar. And they said, We've got a church here.

Mina Smallman27:44

I said yeah.

Mina Smallman27:46

And it actually ran a nursery, so it was like a hall church, nothing posh about it at all, but it became a hub for the community.

Mina Smallman27:55

And I loved it.

Presenter27:58

Mina, it's time for some more music. This is your fifth choice today. What have you gone for and why?

Mina Smallman28:03

We are the world. The artists who sang on this were my music story with my sister and she would sing the main and I would be the backup singer and I would play the bunk beds so I would be the percussion and you know I'd do the do-ups and and I just couldn't choose an artist. I couldn't choose so I thought why not have them all?

Presenter28:30

Everyone's in here.

Mina Smallman28:31

Oh yeah. Yeah. Why not have them all?

Mina Smallman28:33

And I love that idea of I think there was a note on the door, leave your ego at the door. It is people who have a lot of power

Mina Smallman28:44

Taking time out of their lives to do something good.

Mina Smallman28:49

for the world. When people do that, you know the recent riots and when the people came forward and said this is not who we are.

Mina Smallman28:59

That's my message of hope.

Mina Smallman29:02

There are so many more good people than there are bad. It's just the bad people can be so scary sometimes, but we don't let them win.

Mina Smallman29:11

We can't let them win.

Mina Smallman29:13

And

Mina Smallman29:14

Leave your ego at the door, I think that's always important.

Speaker 129:22

We are Richard

Speaker 129:26

We are the ones

Speaker 129:27

My love and day, so let's go to heaven.

Speaker 129:33

There's a choice we're making.

Speaker 129:36

Uh

Presenter29:36

We're saving our own lives. It's true, we make a better day, just you and me.

Presenter29:47

USA for Africa and We Are the World.

Presenter29:51

Mina Smallman, your daughters Biba and Nikki were quite far apart in age, but they were very, very close as sisters. Tell us a bit about them as individuals. What were they like?

Mina Smallman30:01

All of my girls, they're so different. I mean, Biba was the pocket rocket. She was tiny but feisty and as teaching was for me, social work was for her. She found her thing. It was her thing.

Presenter30:14

Yeah.

Mina Smallman30:15

And Nikki was like a flower girl from the sixties. You know, I always think of her, you know Alice in Wonderland, do you know the Dormouse or whatever the one that's always like asleep? Like oh yeah. She was like very kind of laid back, you know.

Speaker 130:26

Come on.

Presenter30:27

Uh

Mina Smallman30:30

But if she wasn't there, she'd be missed. Uh

Presenter30:33

Yeah.

Mina Smallman30:33

Yeah.

Presenter30:35

On Friday, june fifth, twenty twenty, Bieber and Nikki met some friends in Fryant Country Park in Brent for a birthday picnic for Bieber.

Presenter30:44

This was during the first lockdown, which is why they were celebrating outside. When did you first get an inkling that something wasn't right? Yeah.

Mina Smallman30:51

Adam phoned.

Presenter30:52

So this is Nikki's boyfriend.

Mina Smallman30:54

Yeah, about seven PM the following day and said, Have you heard from Nikki? I said, No, I haven't. What's the matter? He said, Well, she's not been home.

Mina Smallman31:06

My thought.

Mina Smallman31:07

Well, that is unusual. And he said, I've phoned the police, we've checked the hospitals, they're not anywhere to be found.

Mina Smallman31:15

And I thought this is strange. So I said, Let me phone the police. I just thought maybe, you know, the mum of spoke to this woman Handler. She said, Okay, leave it with me. Never got back to me.

Presenter31:29

By Sunday morning there was still no sign of Bieber and Nikki and no official police search had been launched, so family and friends started looking for them themselves.

Presenter31:38

Can you begin to describe your state of mind at that point?

Mina Smallman31:42

By this time we were frantic.

Presenter31:45

So you were at home, manning the phones, and then Chris went out to to look in the park.

Mina Smallman31:50

Yeah.

Presenter31:51

And it was Adam who found your daughter's bodies.

Mina Smallman31:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Mina Smallman31:57

And he just said, Mina Mina, that I need you to sit down.

Mina Smallman32:01

And he said they come.

Mina Smallman32:04

I let out this primal scream.

Mina Smallman32:08

It comes from the core of your soul, really. And once I'd got over that, I thought to myself, Oh good God, I've got to phone Chris Chris's on his way. He was going to join the search. Yeah.

Mina Smallman32:20

He was still on the road.

Mina Smallman32:22

And I said, Oh, can you pull over? He said, Oh, I'm nearly there, I'm nearly there. I said, Can you just pull over? I need to pull over. And he said, Have they found them then? Have they I said, Just pull over.

Mina Smallman32:33

And he did, and I told him. And I think

Mina Smallman32:37

I was on my own. He was on his own.

Mina Smallman32:40

And it's like

Mina Smallman32:42

I've never in my entire life ever experienced a sense of there is no hope. That feeling of

Mina Smallman32:53

Disconnection

Mina Smallman32:55

From the World.

Presenter32:57

The days that followed must have been just a blur. And it was then just a few days later that the police told you that two constables who'd been ordered to guard the crime scene had taken photographs of your daughters and shared them with colleagues in WhatsApp messages. How did you begin to process that news on top of what you were already dealing with?

Mina Smallman33:22

You've got nothing in the tank. You have nothing.

Mina Smallman33:26

to give. We'd gone to London to start preparing for the funeral.

Mina Smallman33:32

And even Graham, he was the person, the lead person on from the IOPC.

Mina Smallman33:39

When he was telling me his chin was trembling.

Mina Smallman33:42

He said, I don't actually know how to tell you this because I have two daughters myself.

Mina Smallman33:48

I was thinking, My God, what is he going to tell us?

Mina Smallman33:51

And when he told us, I completely lost it.

Mina Smallman33:56

My language was so blue. When they left, they must have said, Did you say she was a priest? You know, they must have said,

Presenter34:01

That must have said

Mina Smallman34:03

and everything about

Presenter34:06

Uh

Mina Smallman34:06

You're shaking, Reina. Oh yeah.

Presenter34:07

But yeah.

Mina Smallman34:08

Everything about

Mina Smallman34:10

Women who have been let down. You know the Carricks, the Cousins.

Mina Smallman34:17

The police whose job it is to protect the vulnerable.

Mina Smallman34:23

The oath that they take, do not do this job to lord it over people.

Mina Smallman34:30

Do the job because you want to be part of good.

Mina Smallman34:34

So many more of our police.

Mina Smallman34:37

Ah, that's who they are. They stand in the gap for us.

Mina Smallman34:42

And we've seen the worst and the best, and you'll never hear me bash.

Mina Smallman34:49

The police, I bash the ones who have managed to squeeze in.

Mina Smallman34:55

Through poor lack of vetting, lack of funding.

Mina Smallman35:00

hidden pockets of

Mina Smallman35:03

Filth.

Mina Smallman35:04

that's been allowed to blossom.

Mina Smallman35:08

I have no words for them, and I I will take them down and I was celebrating when those two

Mina Smallman35:17

were sent to prison.

Presenter35:21

Mina, let's take a break for some music. What have you chosen for us next?

Mina Smallman35:25

Well, one of the things our family always did, we were a party family. One of the one of the performers I really enjoyed is Neo, and I got tickets. Neo came to the O Two a few years back, and I bought tickets for myself, Beber and Nicole.

Mina Smallman35:47

I don't know when why anyone buys a seat, because as soon as the first song happened we were up and dancing.

Speaker 135:51

Dance

Mina Smallman35:52

And one of the songs I love is Miss Independent because it sums up how.

Mina Smallman36:01

My Girls Are How I Brought My Girls Up To Be

Mina Smallman36:05

To be women who know their femininity, happy to be who they are.

Mina Smallman36:12

They know themselves. They don't have to prove themselves to anybody. And when they enter a room, you think, oh yeah, they look good and they look confident.

Mina Smallman36:24

She got her wrong thing. That's why I love her. Missing it bending. Won't you come and spend a little time? She got her wrong thing.

Mina Smallman36:38

That's why I love her, missing it in me. Who wake me shine, missing me?

Presenter36:50

Misindependent, Neo.

Presenter36:52

Mina Smallman, in October 2021, the Independent Office for Police Conduct the IOPC published its report into the deaths of Bieber and Nikki.

Presenter37:02

That report highlighted the failings of the Metropolitan Police in the way that it responded when they were reported missing. The then Met Commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, issued a public apology. What was your response to the apology?

Mina Smallman37:15

Oh, it felt like a slap in the face, really. Sorry is like you say sorry when you bump into someone at the supermarket.

Mina Smallman37:24

This is

Mina Smallman37:26

Another issue with huge institutions. Is the arrogance

Presenter37:32

The same report also said that there was no suggestion of racial bias playing any part in how the missing person's report was dealt with.

Presenter37:39

How did you feel about that conclusion? How do you feel about that?

Mina Smallman37:42

Sometimes racism doesn't have language. It's not verbalized. It's what you fail to do and what you communicate within the structures.

Presenter37:54

So you're saying that in in your view, the fact that they didn't mount a search was because of the ethnicity of your daughters?

Mina Smallman38:02

Uh

Mina Smallman38:03

Because

Mina Smallman38:04

The first phone call they received from Nicky's friends.

Mina Smallman38:10

They asked for a description of both Nikki and Bieber. So they knew.

Mina Smallman38:16

right from the start that they were looking for two women of colour.

Mina Smallman38:21

And so

Mina Smallman38:23

Give me the explanation why they didn't look for them.

Mina Smallman38:28

Bieber's a social worker.

Mina Smallman38:31

Nikki's twenty-seven, got a job, never done this before, what are the reasons?

Mina Smallman38:37

It turned out that the woman I spoke to, the call handler, had then got in touch with my granddaughter and asked me.

Presenter38:47

Also Weber's daughter.

Mina Smallman38:49

This is Bieber's daughter, Monet.

Mina Smallman38:51

And asked her whether I was a bit of a nervous worrier. Now, I know what my granddaughter would do, said no.

Mina Smallman39:00

After speaking to her, they phoned the patrol craft that were on their way to Nicky's and cancelled.

Mina Smallman39:07

The search

Mina Smallman39:10

My only hope is that

Mina Smallman39:13

I've made my point.

Mina Smallman39:15

and they will do better.

Presenter39:18

In march twenty twenty three, Baroness Louise Casey's review of the Met in the wake of the murder of Sarah Everard by a serving officer condemned the force as institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic. I wonder what your reaction was to the review.

Mina Smallman39:34

I thought it was well written, unbiased. The term institutional racism.

Mina Smallman39:41

Doesn't describe the individuals between that institution. It means that the systems.

Mina Smallman39:49

That

Mina Smallman39:50

Prevail.

Mina Smallman39:51

Enable

Mina Smallman39:53

and have enabled.

Presenter39:55

Sir Mark Rowley, the current Met Commissioner, has accepted the findings of the review, but he has rejected the language, so he rejects the term institutional racism.

Mina Smallman40:04

Yes. And I my response to that, and I've said this to him and we've we have lively debates, I I've said to him, that is just semantics. Acceptance of institutional racism isn't about a white person's perception of institutional racism.

Mina Smallman40:25

It is.

Mina Smallman40:27

The institution saying, I see you, I get it now.

Presenter40:31

It's time for your penultimate disc, if you wouldn't mind. It's time for some more music. Disc number seven. What are we going to hear next and why are you taking it with you to the desert island today?

Mina Smallman40:41

Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick by Ian Dury and the Blockheads.

Mina Smallman40:46

This

Mina Smallman40:48

is for my monique my middle daughter.

Mina Smallman40:52

Lots of people ask lots of questions about Biba and Nicole, but I have three daughters. And recently, I've made a point of saying something about her.

Mina Smallman41:07

Because it's really hard to be the last one left behind. And I want her to know that she doesn't have to fill that gap.

Mina Smallman41:19

and that she's entitled to have a life.

Mina Smallman41:22

And Monique was not gifted with any sense of coordination. We would do party games like music statues, musical statues, and we'd give the kids, you know, they'd win a coin of some sort. Monique had no rhythm whatsoever. And she did it under duress. But one day I had the radio on while I was doing some housework, and this song came on.

Mina Smallman41:50

And it was like someone had given her a blue ice pop. She was running around and this music, she was banging her head. And when it got to the chorus, hit me, hit me, hit me, she would go absolutely insane and run up and down. And it was just so lovely to see her so freed.

Mina Smallman42:11

Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me.

Speaker 142:14

Uh

Mina Smallman42:15

Hit me!

Mina Smallman42:16

Shit, Ich Libadik, hit me, hit me, hit me. Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me slowly, hit me quick, hit me.

Presenter42:36

Iain Dury and the Blockheads, hit me with your rhythm stick. Mina Smallman, in july twenty twenty one, Daniel Hussain was found guilty of killing Bieber and Nikki in a random attack as part of what he saw as a satanic sacrifice. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

Presenter42:53

Remarkably, you have been able to forgive him. How did you manage to reach this point?

Mina Smallman43:01

Actually it was a gift. You know, we call it the grace of God.

Mina Smallman43:04

I don't even think about him, and when I'm talking to you now,

Mina Smallman43:08

I have no emotional connection. It's as though he doesn't exist. And that is a gift because I am a typical mother bear.

Mina Smallman43:22

Everything in me would want to do him a damage.

Mina Smallman43:26

And I don't need that in my headspace. That would be too much.

Presenter43:30

And what about the policeman who took the photographs? Can you forgive that?

Mina Smallman43:33

Um nope.

Mina Smallman43:34

No, that hasn't happened. And I think the issue is it's to keep the fire alive.

Mina Smallman43:41

That

Mina Smallman43:42

makes me want to continue to

Mina Smallman43:45

Challenge institutions to do better.

Mina Smallman43:51

Greek.

Presenter43:51

Grief can put such a huge strain on a relationship, but the kinds of experiences that you and Chris have been through together are unimaginable. How have you been able to pull each other closer instead of being torn apart by everything that's happened?

Mina Smallman44:07

And we've never judged each other on how we grieve. Chris has never given me a hard time and said, Oh, come on, don't sit on your own or

Mina Smallman44:17

He doesn't judge me and he does walk in football, plays tennis. And I've never said to him, How can you go and play football at a time like this? How could you We have allowed each other the space that we need and we laugh together every opportunity we can. It's what keeps us going to find the joy in things where we can.

Presenter44:43

Yes, and on that note, you and Chris planted a cherry tree in the gardens of Canterbury Cathedral. What was the significance of that moment for you?

Mina Smallman44:52

Chris and I, we were fortunate enough to do a trip to Japan. We I wanted to see the cherry blossom. And in Japan it kind of is the whole spectrum of life, you know, from the buds to when it blooms. And there are times when it's dormant, doesn't look like much.

Mina Smallman45:11

But then suddenly life springs forth.

Mina Smallman45:16

And I think that is the truth of life in general. You know, we hit rocks and bumps, and there are times when we think.

Mina Smallman45:24

Will it ever will we ever laugh again? Will we ever think of beautiful things again? And then the cherry blossom blooms and you think.

Mina Smallman45:33

Yeah, that's where we are now, when we think of the girls. I think of them in full life, in full blossom.

Mina Smallman45:41

And uh that's the significance of the cherry.

Presenter45:46

Meanup.

Presenter45:47

It's time for us to send you away to the island in just a moment. I wonder how you're feeling about the prospect of life there and how you'd like to spend your time.

Mina Smallman45:57

Yeah, I always thought I was an extrovert and then I worked out I'd been masquerading all the time. So actually I'm an introvert.

Presenter46:05

So you're looking forward to it? Yeah.

Mina Smallman46:06

Yeah, I do. I like a bit of peace and quiet. I shall just ponder on all the wonderful journeys I've been on in life.

Mina Smallman46:16

take time to savour the rich experiences that I've had. And it was through becoming a priest that I accepted I cannot control my environment, so I'm choosing to live hopefully rather than defensively.

Presenter46:36

Well, we'd love to hear one more track from you before you go. Your final choice today, Minus Moleman, what's it gonna be?

Mina Smallman46:41

I look to you and it's Whitney Houston. When the girls had their funeral, it was during COVID. You could only have, you know, no more than 30. Bearing in mind, we had two coffins there, and so we had people standing outside in the churchyard. And we did CDs rather than because we couldn't have the music. And this song reminds me of the funeral. On that day, there were so many people there to support us. People from High Wickham, where Bieber was a social worker from the pub that Nikki had worked in, ex-students of ours, colleagues, friends, school friends, and they were all there holding us. Yeah, this is important to me.

Speaker 147:36

As I lay me down

Speaker 147:41

Heaven hear me now

Speaker 147:46

I'm lost without a call.

Mina Smallman47:50

After giving it

Speaker 147:51

Yeah.

Mina Smallman47:55

Yeah.

Speaker 147:55

Winter See.

Speaker 147:56

Have come and darkened my side.

Presenter48:04

Whitney Houston and I look to you.

Presenter48:07

Mina Smallman, I'm sending you away to the island now. I'm going to give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and of course another book of your choosing. What have you gone for?

Mina Smallman48:16

Yeah.

Mina Smallman48:16

The Woman in White Wilkie Collins.

Mina Smallman48:20

When I went back to college, it was the English literature text, and it was the first time I'd read anything like that. And I loved it. I just thought it was so gripping. And interestingly, it had so many kind of resonated with me on so many different levels, you know, dysfunctional relationships and everything. And when we got to Ramsgate, there's a plaque just 200 yards away from us. Wilkie Collins lived here. And so often things come full circle for me.

Mina Smallman48:55

You can also have a luxury item, what would you like?

Mina Smallman48:58

I think I'd go for hair moisturizer, a big tub of hair moisturizer, just to keep it.

Presenter49:02

But

Mina Smallman49:05

A bit moist in the ton.

Presenter49:05

A bit moist in the ton.

Presenter49:07

And finally, which track of the eight that you shared with us today would you save from the waves if you needed to choose just one?

Presenter49:15

It would be Whitney Houston, I look to you.

Presenter49:18

Mina Smallman, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thanks for having me.

Presenter49:46

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mina, who sounds like she will relish the peace and quiet of island life. We've cast many activists away, including Malala Yousafzai, Sinead Burke, and the actor and campaigner Liz Carr. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the production coordinator was Susie Roylands and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the designer, Sir Johnny Ive. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 450:26

I'm Nicola Cochlan, and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Youngest Heroes: Rebellion.

Speaker 450:33

risk and the radical power of youth.

Speaker 150:35

She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself.

Speaker 450:40

12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them, that resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now.

Speaker 450:50

Subscribe to History's Youngest Heroes on BBC Sounds.