Ebony Rainford-Brent

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is the broadcaster and former cricketer Ebony Rainford Brent. She's a boundary breaker, the first black woman to play for England and one of the first women to summarise on men's international matches alongside her former playing colleague Isha Guerr. Her sporting career was illustrious. She was part of the England team that won the 2009 Women's Cricket World Cup in Australia. They consolidated their dominance of the women's game three months later by clinching the Women's World 2020, the NatWest One Day Series, and retaining the women's ashes. In 2020, she gave an impassioned speech about her experiences of racism for a film that was broadcast in the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement. That same year, she founded the African Caribbean engagement charity, Ace, with her club Surrey County. Ace is dedicated to improving diversity in the sport that changed her life. She was born in South London, and her childhood was touched by tragedy. She lost her eldest brother when she was just five. But it was also shaped by the dedication of a mother who was determined that her daughter would achieve her dreams and who taught her to believe in herself.

Presenter1:52

She says when you're feeling hesitant, flex that muscle to say, Okay, I'm not feeling confident right now, but I'm going to put myself forward or give that a try anyway. You'll be amazed by what you can achieve.

Presenter2:04

Ebony Rainford Brent, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Ebony Rainford-Brent2:07

Hello Thank you. Intro, thank you. I really appreciate that.

Presenter2:10

Well, it's all stuff that you did. You're so welcome. So let's start with that idea of flexing that muscle, Ebony. How do you actually do it?

Ebony Rainford-Brent2:18

Outwardly, many people think I'm quite confident because I'm an extrovert, there's no doubt about that. But actually, internally, for many years, there's been doubts, fears consistently. Even doing a show like this, you get tricky and nervous. And, you know, I've invested in coaches and mentors and so many people around. And I did spend time wanting to be perfect, like wanting to be that human that I could delete those emotions. And I maybe wanted to be a robot, actually. And actually, being in sports, sometimes you think the way to do it is be a robot. And actually, the best athletes, I think, embrace all of that and put it in and channel it. I don't think you can ever change being human. So it's kind of been an evolving process. Definitely at peace a lot more with who I am. And that's what sport is about. It's kind of like humans chasing dreams, dealing with the tragedy and the challenges. I'm trying to overcome it to be the best. And it's pretty special.

Presenter3:09

And you've made the switch from player to commentator. I mean, what was that like? Is there part of you that wants to get on the pitch and play yourself? Or are you happy to sit back and watch?

Ebony Rainford-Brent3:17

Are you happy to sit back and watch? Yeah, mixture. So I think it is so much easier sat in the commentary box because anyone who follows Test Match Special, you get cakes, people bring in cakes and you've got tea all day, and you're sat there telling everyone what the players should be doing. It's brilliant. Eating cake and saying what you were doing. Eating cake saying they should be doing this, forgetting how hard it is. I do sometimes, you know, big moments, like a big World Cup final. I remember being at Lord's when the women won in 2017 and I burst into tears because a lot of your teammates were on there and I was proud of them.

Presenter3:31

There's pretty

Presenter3:32

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent3:46

You kind of want to be on the field rather than talking about it. But, um.

Ebony Rainford-Brent3:50

You know, moving into commentary I think has given me that best next step of still being involved, still keeping the connections. And then, you know, people like Jonathan Agnew, who I wind up all the time. He's, you know, the legend, the main voice. And we have so much banter. It does feel like another family, actually. So, and also, I think the thing that's become most special that you realise with the show is how much it means to the listeners. You go around and you'll meet someone who bumps in, they say, I've had it on all day for five days. The mum, the dad, the uncle, the grandma, the grandchildren have all been listening and like fully absorbed. And it means a lot to the people. So it's a special connection.

Presenter4:26

And when you want to get into a completely different headspace, I know that music is a big part of your life because you play the drums. I love the drums.

Ebony Rainford-Brent4:29

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent4:32

I love it. How long have you been drumming? I've been drumming. Oh my god, it's my like favorite, favorite thing in the world. So it was kind of like a cheeky story. I'd always like love, mum, you know, was into music and used to have the vinyls at home and play rangers from all sorts. So I was always like tapping on things. And then I remember there was like one of my older brothers had like a little, just a drum pad. There was no music, it was just you just hit it with sticks. And I was always doing that. So I broke into the drum room when I was maybe about 14, 15 at school. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I was just giving it some. And I remember there was a knock on the door and it was the drum teacher. And the first thing he said is, I thought he was going to tell me off. He was like, your hands are around the wrong way. So I was playing like a left-handed drummer with my left hand on the hi-hat. So I switched it. And then he was like, try this, try that. And then the next thing you know, the school gave me some free lessons because we didn't have a huge amount to sort of pay. And then from then, I was hooked, you know, grade two, grade seven, quite quickly. So I played in bands and stuff like that, performed the other day with some friends, which was incredible. But it's more like a home kind of de-stress, forget about the world, put the headphones on and go for it. It's amazing. Oh, f.

Presenter5:36

Fantastic. And I'm hoping that we've got some good drummers in your list of music today as well.

Ebony Rainford-Brent5:39

Let's get started.

Presenter5:42

Uh

Ebony Rainford-Brent5:42

Uh

Presenter5:42

Started then. Tell us about your first disc.

Ebony Rainford-Brent5:42

Then

Ebony Rainford-Brent5:44

Yeah, so my first song is going to be Cold Sweat by James Brown. This is the first song. Funk is my thing. When I listen to this song, I'm just always like, I want to just run to the drum kit and play straight away.

Speaker 46:02

I don't care.

Speaker 46:06

How about your pass?

Speaker 46:10

I just won't.

Speaker 46:14

Ow! I love the last.

Speaker 46:19

I don't care, darling.

Speaker 46:23

About your thought

Presenter6:25

COLD SWEAT JAMES BROWN AND THE FAMOUNS FLAMES WITH CLYDE StUBLEFIELD ON DRUMS. EBONY RAINFORD BRENT, YOU ARE BOOM ON NEW YEARS EVE in 1983, Hearne Hill, South London. You have a longer full name. Very beautiful. What is

Ebony Rainford-Brent6:39

Is it talking through

Presenter6:39

Weather.

Ebony Rainford-Brent6:39

Where the names come from? Mum's a treat. I was having a wind-up with her today because every time I call the bank or something, it's a nightmare. But she loves it, and I, you know, I adore her for it. My full name is Ebony, Jewel, Coralie, Camellia, Rosamond, Rainford, Brent. And basically, my mum had always wanted a girl, but ended up with three boys first, and then finally, so she kept going, going, going. So she was saving up. The list getting longer. There's actually more that she had, and apparently she had Dion Randall something she wanted to add. And they said, look, can you just calm down on the birth certificate? So, you know, it's finished with that. And yeah, the names are a mixture, really. Ebony, black, and black Jewel. And I think my brother, one of my brothers, was quite instrumental in that. One of my grandmas is Rosamond. Another one is Coralie. And then Camellia, mum's favourite flower. And, you know, she was going on. So I guess because she'd waited so long for a girl, she was like, Right, I'm just going to dump it all in because this is my last child. A lot of people think it's posh, actually. Mum and dad weren't married. So Rainford is mum's side, Brent is dad's side, and they just like pinged them together.

Presenter6:59

The light.

Presenter7:00

The list is

Presenter7:24

You know, she was going

Presenter7:36

So your mum, Janet, she was born in Jamaica, came to the UK when she was thirteen, I think. Your dad is an African American. It was quite a difficult relationship for your mum, I think, with your dad. What are your memories of him and of that?

Ebony Rainford-Brent7:37

Januj

Ebony Rainford-Brent7:47

Of him and of that. And I don't have a huge amount of memories, and it's one of those. I've asked mum sort of the history because I didn't grow up with him and I didn't really have him around in any sort of shape. But mum had gone on holiday to Jamaica from England and bumped into this American guy. He was in the military and he did, you know, photography. And I think they had a little bit of a romance. So come back to the UK. When you, if you ever come over, come and see me. Well, he thought, why not? Let me go and see this lovely lady. Came back to the UK. And you know, I think they had a lovely romance for a little while. I was apparently quite quickly brought to the world. But, you know, from my understanding, you know, when I speak to mum and my brothers, the behavior changed, you know, I think violence and a bit of those, some of those issues. So I have no actual memory of him growing up in my household as a kid because I was ended up made ward of court because of what was going on in the household. Okay. Mum ended up having to sort of, you know, fully single mum, and it's been a weird one. He's now passed away. I spoke to someone got in touch through Instagram, which ended up being a cousin. And I actually spoke to him on his deathbed. And I remember just saying, look, I know clearly a lot went on, but I have no animosity towards you. But it's a weird one. You're conscious as a kid, I didn't have a dad, but I also didn't have bad memories personally because he wasn't in my space. But maybe it's denial. You kind of just go, Do you know what? There's this weird situation. Don't want to deal with it. Park it. And I had so much love around, I just didn't really explore. So mum had to do the heavy lifting, really.

Presenter8:36

Okay.

Presenter8:58

Because

Presenter9:11

And were you conscious of that growing up? Could you see how much she was carrying?

Ebony Rainford-Brent9:14

Could you see?

Ebony Rainford-Brent9:16

Yeah, mum carried a lot and was like working two or three jobs for many years. Actually, many people don't know as well. When I was started to get into cricket further, mum ended up actually moving her job to working nights and then she would come back from work at say 6-7 a.m., pick me up and take me to places because she couldn't do it the other way around working a 9 to 5 to be able to get. So she worked most of her career in the NHS and then when this sort of phase between sort of I would say 13 to 17 before I could drive and it was just getting difficult to like get places, we didn't have a huge, so mum would have to travel with me.

Presenter9:36

So she

Presenter9:39

Mm-hmm.

Presenter9:51

So she took on night shifts so that she could take you to the game.

Ebony Rainford-Brent9:52

She can

Ebony Rainford-Brent9:54

And people used to laugh because they would see her sometimes at the games, like with a blanket falling asleep. But we didn't tell anyone like mum was working nights and stuff. And it taught me the value of work. I could see the stress sometimes when the bills came in. But she was a Trojan because she was. And I remember she would just always say, Do you want to do what you're doing? Like, do you want to be chasing these dreams? If you do, I'll back you. If you don't, you could almost see it would have been like, actually, maybe a bit of relief here. But she did. And so to sacrifice so much, and I know how much she had to put in to make it all work. Pretty proud of her.

Presenter10:25

Education was very important to your mum, and when it came to your secondary school, she was absolutely determined to send you to an all girls' comprehensive school that had a very good reputation. The school was in Westminster, so it wasn't local to where you lived. How did she manage to get you in?

Ebony Rainford-Brent10:40

I remember when you do all the meet, did some tests, and everything had gone okay. And you get there, we'll let you know shortly. And mum was like, I'm not leaving this to chance. And I remember there was a teacher called Mr. Cooper, he was the maths teacher. And mum would just like call the school, you need to take my daughter, let her do her times tables, and she would get me to like recite all the times tables or recite.

Presenter10:59

So she'll get you on the phone, times tables at the stage.

Ebony Rainford-Brent11:01

Yeah, get rid of the phone.

Ebony Rainford-Brent11:03

Yeah, we went up to the school and like mum's outside going, you need to give my daughter a go. And I remember this, Mr. Cooper saying something like, If your mum's that determined and clearly you've got enough smarts, maybe we give you a shot here. And I have to say that school is transformational. It's so ambitious. You know, not many people in our family had gone to university historically. So that was an expectation from day one that you will go. So school for me was everything. And I got so many opportunities. So yeah.

Presenter11:31

But yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent11:32

Grateful for my mums for making sure that happened.

Presenter11:33

Well, I'm glad you'd learned those time-stables.

Ebony Rainford-Brent11:36

Yeah, it did, it did. I would have cited it very well. I can't now.

Presenter11:39

All right, Ebony, let's get back to the music. What's your second disc going to be today?

Ebony Rainford-Brent11:42

Yeah, so this is mum's go-to. Whenever I think of mum dancing around the household and and in her zone, this song, Sophia George, Girly Girly, Reggie Music was kind of what mum at her peak and life at home was like. So, yeah, my mum still would mostly outdance me at a family event now. I had my birthday party the other day and she was there till the bitter end.

Speaker 412:00

Young man, you too girly girly You just have flash with Johnny Worley Young man you too girly girly

Speaker 412:09

You just have to shoot on the world Imab one up here, one down there, one in an over, one down of one she's a lawyer, one she's a doctor, one way they work with a little contractor, one on my east, one long a west, imav one up north and two down south.

Presenter12:31

Girly Girly by Sophia George for your mum Janet Ebony Rainfoot Brent

Presenter12:36

So Ebony, as a little girl, as you mentioned, you had three older brothers. How did all of you get on?

Ebony Rainford-Brent12:42

We had a very competitive household. I'll say that Liverpool were ruling in the 80s in terms of football, and my brothers were football obsessed. Like, they all wore red, and I was just always running around with them playing football. But being the only girl, I wasn't giving the strike a role. I was putting goal. So

Presenter12:57

Um

Ebony Rainford-Brent12:58

Corny, I used to like put the stickers across my nose of like Robbie Fowler used to put these nose stickers across, like to help him breathe. So I'd be like putting masking tape on. Everyone was, you know, things get broken when you you kick the football and it's broken mum's favorite vase, you know, that sort of experience. So yeah, we're all quite different in characters, but also like early memories of just so much fun.

Presenter13:17

The the family went through, as we mentioned in the introduction, a terrible tragedy. You were five and your eldest brother, Jay, was sixteen. He was killed. What what do you remember about it happening? Because you were so little.

Ebony Rainford-Brent13:32

I still remember like the day like basically the police came to the household to say my brother was in intensive care and you know he had been stabbed multiple times and he was on life with a support machine and it was just kind of like it felt like time just froze for a moment like just a sort of confusion and then I remember us going down to King's College Hospital so my mum was actually working at the hospital at the time she was working

Presenter13:54

She was working out at the hospital and that's so

Ebony Rainford-Brent13:55

You know, at the hospital. Yes, that same hospital where she works. So we all went down there, and I can still see him now.

Ebony Rainford-Brent14:02

On life support, and I just remember just holding his hand. And people were some people like family members were coming in, like cousins and like people were piling in, going you know, and I remember just holding his hand while it felt like manicness was going on around. And um

Presenter14:13

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent14:18

Uh yeah, I think it was like 18th of September he went in, 21st it was turned off, and um yeah, it was a real tough one. Um

Ebony Rainford-Brent14:29

What had happened? How would it happen? Yeah, so the background story is: you know, a knife crime wasn't common those days. You know, it much more is now.

Presenter14:31

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent14:37

But then it was quite a shock for the community that you know, making papers. Basically, there was a young boy that my brother had grown up in and around. They used to just fight. You know, sometimes kids fight and they scuffle, scuffle, scuffle, and it kept happening. And then he was in Summerleton Road, which is in Brixton, just down the road from where we grew up. And he was at his girlfriend's house teaching her little brother to ride a bike. So he's out on the road. And the guy came over, started a fight. And my understanding from everybody is that he's like, Look, not today. Can we just leave it? But continued and then pulled out the knife and then stabbed him several times. So, you know, it's not even like you look at it and you think it it it wasn't even worth losing a life. Like it was over nothing, it was over a consistent feud, two kids. It's one of the toughest experiences. a family can have. Everything changed after that, you know. Everything changed, you know. I that's I you know, I have no doubt. I I don't think I would have gone on to a sporting career like I have if it wasn't for that because I just threw myself into sport. I just wanted to kind of get away from home.

Presenter15:27

Everything chat.

Ebony Rainford-Brent15:40

It's like energy. It was like running out the emotions that you couldn't speak about. You just needed the break. I needed the yeah, and I just remember being at any play center, any group. I would be at school, preschool and I just wanted to do all the clubs, every single club. And just I just didn't want to be at home because, you know, tears, pain.

Presenter15:47

I just remember being a

Presenter15:51

Every single club.

Presenter15:56

Because

Ebony Rainford-Brent15:59

The confusion, it was horrific.

Presenter16:01

Were you able to talk as a family? How did you what was your way of dealing with it?

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:05

That's a really good question. Did we deal with it?

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:08

I don't know if we have.

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:10

It's kind of like this thing, but no one really ever goes too deep into the conversations. One of the shining lights, which my brother's girl that he was seeing, actually was pregnant, and we didn't know this at the time. Did he know? He didn't know. So he didn't know. And

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:27

He's come out, he's a spitting image of my brother. Your nephew. Yeah, my nephew. And like, in a weird way, it was like we lost Jay. Then within sort of six months later, he's literally the spitting image. He's almost like him in in carbon copy. And so I don't know, it's you know, you can't ever take away from the pain, but I think that helped the family a little bit focus on

Presenter16:29

Your nephew.

Speaker 416:46

Uh

Presenter16:46

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:50

his memory and his legacy staying alive.

Presenter16:52

And how does that part of your story for you now sit alongside all of these other things that you've done and achieved? Are you able to accept it as part of who you are?

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:56

All of these other

Ebony Rainford-Brent16:58

Doninichi

Ebony Rainford-Brent17:04

Just um one of my brothers, Dominic, always kind of

Ebony Rainford-Brent17:08

Has a go at me for like denying, even sometimes wanting to talk or go there. This would be mostly the most I've ever explored it. And he's always like, it's part of your story, it's part of who you are, it's part of why you do a lot of what you do. And you know, he works a lot in space around social justice and stuff like that. And it's mostly driven both of us to like want to help communities and challenging backgrounds. And so I'm getting there. I think I'm just about dealt with the pain to an extent and I'm kind of accepting it.

Ebony Rainford-Brent17:40

And it's crazy to think that it's so long ago, but yet still feels so real.

Presenter17:44

Yeah.

Presenter17:46

Ebony, let's have some more music. It's your third disc today. What have you chosen next and why?

Ebony Rainford-Brent17:48

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent17:51

Yeah, Pass Me Over by Anthony Hamilton, American Soul Singer. And whenever me and my brother hear it, we just, you know, the emotions flow because it's sort of a spiritual song about passing and it just triggers those sort of feelings of just thinking about my brother. So, yeah, it's a very special song to me and him. Does it give you comfort?

Presenter18:07

Oh yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent18:12

It allows you to cry. So I wouldn't say comfort. It's more like if yeah, it's more like a release. Like it's just you can just play it and then the tears will flow.

Presenter18:14

Uh

Speaker 418:14

There's more.

Presenter18:15

Uh

Speaker 418:20

Another day, chance to make another chance A fried place, running on empty

Speaker 418:32

A smile so faint, barely even break the space The world is on shoulders now

Speaker 418:44

Don't be afraid, he who never make away.

Presenter18:50

Anthony Hamilton and pass me over. So, Ebony Rainford Brent, you loved sports as a kid, as we've heard, but initially it was football. Cricket didn't appeal to you back then. Why not?

Ebony Rainford-Brent19:02

I only saw cricket on BBC and it was like obviously five-day tests. And there were guys who looked nothing like me in dressed in like these woolly white clothes, stood there for days, like they'd stop for tea. I was just like, what is this? Like, I just didn't understand what it was. When I was 10, though, a guy came into our school, his name was Tony Moody, and he was doing a lot of community stuff, and he was trying to get state schools.

Presenter19:17

Like I just

Ebony Rainford-Brent19:28

back into cricket. And I remember a teacher saying, Do you want to try cricket? And I was like, No, like I'm Robbie Fowler right now. I'm John Barnes. I'm Stephen McMahon. Have you seen the pastor and my nose? And we had this cage. So my primary school's right opposite where we grew up. So you could almost see my house from the cage. And I remember us being in there.

Speaker 419:34

Things like that.

Presenter19:34

Have you seen?

Presenter19:36

My name is

Ebony Rainford-Brent19:44

And they had these orange, like quick cricket balls and a blue bat. And I remember the coach just went to me, just hit it as hard as you can. I remember like smacking it. And that sort of thing, there was a sound. There's like a, I still can hear it now, the sort of plastic hitting together. And it flew out the cage through the park towards where I lived. I remember just being like, oh my god, I can like hit things like this hard. You can't do that, like generally, like everything's always organized when you're a young child. You do this this way. But to be able to just hit it as hard as you can, throw yourself, dive, you know, diving around. I loved fielding. You could throw yourself and slide across the floor to stop a ball. It was amazing. So I was hooked once I understood the game and then the rules. And then.

Ebony Rainford-Brent20:25

You know, I was so fortunate to have an incredible lady called Jenny Washdrack.

Presenter20:28

So she's a former cricketer and she talent spotted you and very influential on your life. What did she do for you?

Ebony Rainford-Brent20:31

You and Energy

Ebony Rainford-Brent20:35

She's if it wasn't for her, there's no way I would have made it into sort of the more professional side of the sport because she's an am uh the first West Indian black captain called Frank Worrell, she was actually uh his niece or something like that. So I think she also maybe had a bit of a

Ebony Rainford-Brent20:53

Affiliation because there weren't any young kids of colour, but she used to help us and get me scholarships, apply through Surrey. She got me into trials for Surrey. She'd take me to England trials, like she'd drive us around sometimes and stuff like that. She'd

Presenter21:05

So she knew how the infrastructure

Ebony Rainford-Brent21:06

You know, where other kids were getting one-to-ones from eight years old. You know, I didn't my first cricket bat we bought in Brixton for five pounds. I think it's from like the fifties or something when you look at it. When it's from, so someone had just got rid of it in a garden sale. And I used that through to playing Junior England. So yeah, it's it's a meaningful bat.

Presenter21:08

Right.

Presenter21:12

Mm.

Presenter21:18

Were you looking

Presenter21:26

So you had Jenny on your team and she kind of knew where you needed to go. But your mum was very supportive too. And physically she would help you practise, I think.

Ebony Rainford-Brent21:30

Where you needed to go.

Ebony Rainford-Brent21:35

I think. So mum was a legend, so she would get up early and she would like throw me balls. Mum's ambidextrous as well, so she'd like throw me some from the left and throw me some from the right. Mum's influential in helping my front foot drive develop. Mum didn't even know anything about cricket, but she learnt the drill and would feed me balls after balls after balls. And then the other thing she did is you could put a ball on a string. We had a garden and so she put it up on the washing line and you'd just like put a cricket ball in there and just hit and hit and hit. So yeah, I owe her a lot. She she was a mean left-hander.

Presenter22:03

Bye-bye.

Ebony Rainford-Brent22:09

And you started Uh

Presenter22:10

As a As a bowler

Ebony Rainford-Brent22:11

Why was that? So I loved again the competitive edge. I quite liked trying to pert people. I think it's a fast bowler thing. Like, you kind of want to bowl as fast as you can or scare people and intimidate people. And it worked for a while until my back gave up. So, yeah, fast bowling was everything.

Presenter22:29

Let's have some more music. Tell me about this one. When when did it come into your life?

Ebony Rainford-Brent22:33

Yeah, long walk. So Jill Scott, um I think it was her 25th anniversary the other day. So this is around this age when I was 15 and I was really getting into like music and who I was and I saw myself as like maybe I could play for England and this kind of really sums up that era for me.

Speaker 422:48

You're here, I'm pleased, I really dig your company Your style, your smile, your peace mentality

Speaker 423:00

Lord have mercy on me I was blind now I can see What I came supposed to be

Speaker 423:09

Baby, I feel free, come on and go with me. Let's take a long walk around the park after

Presenter23:18

Jill Scott, A Long Walk. Ebony Rainford Brent, when you were twelve you were scouted by Surrey County Cricket Club and chosen to represent the London Schools Cricket Association. This was a new world for you. How did you find it and how did you fit in?

Ebony Rainford-Brent23:33

I definitely didn't feel like I fitted in. I was excited by the sort of, you could see there was a path of something exciting ahead, you know, representing your county and your family was starting to get excited and the school were excited. But I definitely found the experience quite challenging. So I guess, you know, if you take the traditional cricket world I went into there, it was a bit more middle class and upper class. A lot of the kids were either private schools or, you know, full families, maybe some coming in there, late Range Rovers, and there's us sort of either on buses, mums maybe, you know, it was a very different world and there wasn't diversity really. And so it was just maybe just kids who didn't really know what it was like to be around someone differently. So at first it would be sort of just comments about hair and, you know, mum would always cook up Jamaican smelling food and you'd open it up and people like, oh, that, you know, they weren't used to it. So I think there was a lot of stage where I realized quite quickly when I moved into cricket, I was quite different to the girls that I was playing with. I remember a couple of times I remember sat sort of by our table at home, like just crying. That's the worst bit I don't like when I look back at my journey is I started to sort of question myself a bit through that rather than it being the other way around. I didn't, I suppose because you're so often the only person, I started to sort of question myself a little bit.

Presenter24:47

So you're like, I'm the one.

Ebony Rainford-Brent24:48

I think it shaped my personality a little bit. I um I tried to like become the joker or try and like deflect a bit and so it it it definitely um chipped away and it got worse as I got older actually rather than better. So I would say early days was just sort of ignorance and or misunderstanding. And then you know I had to deal with some environments where there was some more explicit stuff around things that affected training.

Presenter24:48

And who doesn't fit in m maybe there's something wrong with me.

Ebony Rainford-Brent25:16

People in the environment and stuff like that who had positions of power, influence, and like I know, spoke to no one in cricket about it, and I just wanted to be known as the girl who's good at sport or the girl who was doing okay at school, but I just didn't really want to talk about it, I didn't want to go there. The hardest bit is then feeling if I challenge this, I'm going to lose my spot or my place.

Presenter25:38

When you're still vulnerable and you're still making your way, there's a big kind of imperative not to speak out, isn't there? You can only do it when you've won the World Cup.

Ebony Rainford-Brent25:42

You can always

Ebony Rainford-Brent25:46

Exactly. And I look back now and honestly, I think if I would have challenged things, I don't I don't think it would have worked out well. In some ways I wish if I was more vocal and took on the system, but I didn't. But then I don't know if I would have been able to stay in that world sometimes and environment. So, you know, where we are, where we are.

Presenter26:07

Ebony, in 2001, when you were eighteen, you made your one day international debut as part of an England women's development team. Things were going really well, but two years later, you had a terrible back injury. You couldn't walk properly for almost a year. What comes back to you when you think about that time?

Ebony Rainford-Brent26:25

I would be able to like hobble around a bit, but I'm like, that would be for like max. I'd stand up in an hour in a day. I couldn't physically stay up. I struggled to get up and walk properly. And I ended up spending nearly three years out of not only playing, but through that stage, I had university. And there were times I couldn't do exams, so I had to take a year out. I remember the doctor said, my mum was with me, and they said, I'm not sure you're going to be able to play sport again because you've got two prolaps diss, you've got PARS defect. They were going through all the issues in the back, and I was thinking, how is this possible? The shock was just because also it was like you're taking everything away from me. I went into quite a dark place for that year. I'd say it's mentally, it was my toughest because all I did was pretty much lie in bed. I was in a dark room. You know, I was putting on a lot of weight because I just thought it was over. I just, I had nothing. I was like, not at university. I had to take a year out. It was a pretty dark place.

Presenter27:17

I want to find out what happened next, but first we're going to take a minute for some music. Disc number five piece I want to say.

Ebony Rainford-Brent27:22

So Aretha Franklin has always been like my mum's go-to and my go-to. And I think, you know, when you feel like, okay, I've got a good feeling on who I am, I'm rock steady and that sort of vibe. So I think this song is just when I think of getting through all that, and I play it when I'm in a good place.

Speaker 427:39

Betty, baby.

Speaker 427:40

That's what I feel now.

Speaker 427:44

That's all the sound ain't like you're worried.

Speaker 427:48

Got to move your hips when I feel it from side to side

Speaker 427:53

Put yourself down in your car and take a ride.

Speaker 427:56

Why you moving last day?

Speaker 427:59

Right, steady baby

Speaker 428:02

Let's call this song exactly what it is. What it is, what it is, what it is. It's a fucking lone I feel it.

Presenter28:09

Aretha Franklin and Rock Steady.

Presenter28:13

Ebony Rainford-Brent, you've described your recovery from your back injury as a long journey back. How did you actually manage it?

Ebony Rainford-Brent28:22

I owe a lot to my brother Dominic who I remember him having quite a stern word with me actually saying, You need to pull yourself out of this dark place and then he paid for actually like chiropractors and physios and stuff like that till I found someone amazing and then my mum gave me these like box of like psychology C D's.

Presenter28:32

There's a

Presenter28:39

So like motivational stuff.

Ebony Rainford-Brent28:39

Yeah, motivational stuff. I locked Tony Robbins in, she was like, please. And I remember the one thing that was in there, I remember they said set a goal so big if you could come back. And so I actually wrote on a note and stuck it on the wall saying be part of the World Cup in 2009. And I just look at it for the year. The first year nothing was happening. But then eventually once I think started to pick up again, I kind of locked in on that dream.

Presenter28:41

A lot of the

Presenter29:00

So the England and Wales Cricket Board, the ECB, they stepped in and got you on a scholarship scheme and that paid for your ongoing treatment. And you trained with the England team while they were on tour in Australia. Now and this is no main feat. You then swapped bowling for batting because that was easier on your back.

Presenter29:17

Talk me through that transition. How difficult is that? Especially at that level, I mean, elite level.

Ebony Rainford-Brent29:22

It wasn't like an overnight transition. I think it took like 18 months, two years before I started proving because I had to start scoring runs in the English season, then I'd go away in the winter. So it was like, I think this is when people backing you and you have to kind of back yourself happens. It's like my coach at the time, Jeremy Surrey funded to allow me to be able to keep trying to convert. It's changed your mindset as well. Like batting is a very different skill. And, you know.

Presenter29:46

So, in what way? What's the so you describe that going out and bowling and just smashing the ball out there? Yeah, 100% cricket.

Ebony Rainford-Brent29:47

So he can

Ebony Rainford-Brent29:51

Actually the ball there it is.

Ebony Rainford-Brent29:53

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent29:54

Yeah, batting and opening the batting, especially like 50-over-cricket, where you have more time and you have to be a bit more strategic. And I had to spend more time with psychologists of like how to reset, refocus, bat for long periods because one moment of loss of concentration and you're out. Whereas, at least with the bowling, if you have one ball, you can come back again the next ball. So you had to be so much more clinical, clear on your game plans. So I had to like think a lot more about the game. You know, off-spin bowlers. I went to India and training camps to learn how to face different types of spin. And then you start to really get into sort of the mindset, the strategy. And so, yeah, that was a real turning point. And actually, it's something that gives me confidence looking back at going, you know, what you backed yourself.

Presenter30:13

Also

Ebony Rainford-Brent30:35

And it paid off.

Presenter30:36

And you'd written that goal on the wall to play for England and then also to complete your chemistry degree.

Ebony Rainford-Brent30:42

Did you? Yeah, I did. And I went on and did the Masters as well. I mean, I look back at the chemistry, because if cricket didn't pan out, I was going to most really go down the science route. I was doing my, I remember doing my Masters, and then we were getting into the run-up to the World Cup. So it's sort of an 18-month period. And I would, again, the training came in. I'd get up sometimes super early, go in, set up all my experience within the lab, head down to Bishop Abbey, drive down the motorway to do training session, drive back for nine o'clock lectures, do lectures nine till six, and then go down to the Oval for nine. And you'd do that like day on day. It was quite a lot to manage, but it was also it's quite an empowering feeling actually as well. Being on top.

Presenter31:21

Being on top of that, I'm doing it. Having been flat on your back just a few years before.

Ebony Rainford-Brent31:22

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent31:24

Okay, having

Ebony Rainford-Brent31:25

Just a few years before. And having that chance to actually come back and like get to chase your dream. And actually, we were building up to a World Cup.

Presenter31:33

Well, and you did pretty well. So let's talk about the the debut for England, a huge moment in the One Day International against New Zealand two thousand seven. And as we mentioned earlier, the first black woman to play for England. Did it feel momentous on the day?

Ebony Rainford-Brent31:49

I remember I can still see uh there's a picture of me getting my cap from Charlotte Edwards, the captain, and my eyes are like so gooey, like it's just the excitement. I remember being in the Metro paper and mum like went down you know the the guys who will hand them out, like took the whole thing off them and was like throwing it around.

Presenter32:04

And was like

Presenter32:05

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:06

If

Presenter32:07

Uh

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:07

Yeah.

Presenter32:07

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:07

Yeah.

Presenter32:07

Hand out on the tube in London, or they did do back in the day. She got the whole thing out.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:09

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:11

She got the whole stack and was like, everyone who wanted to have a copy, have a copy, have a copy, have a copy.

Presenter32:16

New Zealand won that particular match. However, two years later, things were rather different. The team won the Cricket World Cup, the final of the Women's World 2020, the NatWest One Day Series, and retained the women's ashes. I mean, what an extraordinary run of victories. What do you put that change down to? You really turn the fortunes around.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:35

Unfortunately.

Ebony Rainford-Brent32:37

Yeah, it was a real significant moment for me. It was that tournament, so the tournament I made my sort of proper debut in, and we got hammered. And at the time, Charlotte Edwards, I remember her in the changing room saying to us, Girls, we need to remember why we're doing this. Like, it looks like we've lost our pride and we're not focused, we're not clear. And we need to, like, never forget where we're coming from, why we're doing this, who we're doing it for. And the new coaches came in, and they really wanted to create this culture of everybody supporting each other, everyone knowing what their roles were. So that could be your role from running drinks through to if you're open to the batting or bowling and how we support each other. The next song we started singing over and over again. And basically, over 18 months, we said, Every time we win, we will sing this song as a collective and play it on the team buster in the changing room. And we started getting more excited, not about winning, but about getting in the changing room to start screaming this song out. What does that feel like? It's almost tribal, actually. It's like, you know, we'd be in the change room, like everyone's banging on the walls, singing this song and like screaming it from your lungs. And it was so special to be like unified with a group of people with a common goal, supporting each other. And this vision for like something which is so special that you know is so rare to be able to achieve. And this song the next song kind of really sums it up for me, is just what it means to have a special team around you going for a major goal.

Presenter33:54

I think you better introduce it for her.

Ebony Rainford-Brent33:55

Yeah, the song Take That, Never Forget. And we sang this consistently and it got us to the peak of our career.

Presenter33:55

The

Speaker 434:05

Finding paradise wasn't easy but still.

Speaker 434:10

There's a rock going down the other side of this feeling

Speaker 434:16

Forget where you're coming from. Faith. Pretend that it's all real. So

Speaker 434:28

Soon it's blow up with someone else's dream.

Speaker 434:33

This will be someone else's dream

Presenter34:36

Take that and never forget. Ebony Rainford Brent, in the summer of 2020, you shared your experiences of racism alongside fellow cricketer Michael Holding in a very powerful film. It was for Sky Sports. The film was in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and you just started working for Sky as a commentator and this film was very personal, very emotional. Why did you decide to speak so openly about your experiences?

Ebony Rainford-Brent35:02

Black Lives Matter is happening, and it's stirring up all these emotions that have completely repressed, or not talked about, or never really gone public with.

Ebony Rainford-Brent35:11

I thought I was potentially going to lose my career. And I remember calling my mum and brother going, if this goes wrong, because I didn't know if it was going to hit people and they go, stop talking about this. So I just had this moment of going, and Mikey said to me, he was like, if we're going to speak and we're going to have an impact, it's got to be now. And this is where you kind of put, you have to go by your values, not about sort of a moment in your career, like values. And.

Presenter35:35

Things that

Ebony Rainford-Brent35:37

It's mostly the one of the biggest turning points in my life internally as well.

Presenter35:41

And you said, you know, that time had brought up so much that you'd repressed.

Presenter35:46

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I mean, what were you sharing and what did you take because this was you're saying all this like you say on camera for the first time and in tears at that point.

Ebony Rainford-Brent35:55

But how

Ebony Rainford-Brent35:56

Yeah, but basically we were in a dark room, just stripped away, sat there. And I was just talking about my experiences from being made to feel isolated for being different. You know, I get hate. I've had hate mail just for being, just being, telling you to go back to where you came from. And I'm like, well, born in South London. You know, when you get things like that, you get social media abuse. You get people saying stuff to you. You get hate letter sent to you. And I remember even when that came, I remember being at the Oval thinking, walking out the gates, worried, well, I don't know, you know, people are sending hate letters in just for me existing. You're walking out thinking, I don't know who this, but like this person could be out here right now. Yeah, right there by the gates. And so.

Presenter36:36

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent36:39

You know, sometimes I don't think people realize like what that experience can be like for people. And there's many who've had worse than I have actually, you know. Me and Mikey dovetailed together and it was almost like a what it could look like if we do work together as well. And I think that resonated because it wasn't maybe solely about just my journey and pain. It was also like this is what it feels like for someone to be through this. And then also what if we come together? We could like change our sport, we could change environment, we could change so that we don't have to deal with some of these issues. And so

Presenter36:43

And there's m

Presenter36:45

Make sure you know

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:08

It was incredible. I mean, I remember turning off social media actually because I was so scared. But it connected so well. And I think I owe Mikey a lot for encouraging me to sort of use the platform, be brave as a major moment.

Presenter37:18

Use places.

Presenter37:20

Yeah, it's a matter.

Presenter37:21

Issues of racism continue in cricket.

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:23

You encrypt.

Presenter37:24

In twenty twenty, the former bowler Azeem Rafiqi played for Yorkshire County Cricket Club. He accused the club of racist bullying behaviour and his allegations against five former players were proven. How hopeful are you that attitudes are changing in the sport in general for the better?

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:32

Um

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:40

In the spot.

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:43

I feel like we're still a long way away from actually ever solving these problems. But I think we're starting to put systems in place, accountability in place. I think that's what Zeem's.

Ebony Rainford-Brent37:54

Case and Dealies has done is like force the sport to be accountable for creating healthy environments. And I remember saying to him, like, he's done what I don't think I could have ever done, which is like really ripped the bandage off. And I was so proud of him for, you know, because I knew the impact wasn't going to be pretty. But also, I knew what he was doing for the bigger picture. So yeah, we still speak now. And I think we owe him, even though it's, you know, been a tough journey, we owe him a lot. I owe him a lot. And it's paid its price at times. But, you know, I respect what he's done.

Ebony Rainford-Brent38:32

Now we've got some good plans in place. I think the reality is things take time, but we're seeing some growth. So I'm hopeful. I still don't want to like pretend that we're there. And I feel like we need to keep the foot on the gas for like twenty years before we even see

Ebony Rainford-Brent38:46

That's deep-rooted cultural change.

Presenter38:48

And you've got your foot on the gas, William, because you literally set up the African Caribbean Engagement Programme, ACE, to encourage young people of African and Caribbean heritage to participate in cricket, both on and off the pitch.

Ebony Rainford-Brent38:52

The

Ebony Rainford-Brent38:58

Sage 2

Ebony Rainford-Brent39:01

It's

Ebony Rainford-Brent39:03

Yeah. Ta-da! I feel like watching all these kids play.

Presenter39:04

Uh

Ebony Rainford-Brent39:05

It's unreal. You know, I haven't got any little ones. I'm not sure I will, but I almost feel like if I don't, this is my kind of being able to see so many young people fulfill and chase their dreams, but also in a supportive environment has been really special.

Presenter39:18

And if I had to ask you to name a proudest moment with Ace, what would that be?

Ebony Rainford-Brent39:22

Gloucestershire Cricket Club, so they're based in Bristol'cause there's a big black community down there. And I remember like last year nine got picked up into their academy, but there was one kid who hadn't played cricket before. Maybe it's only'cause it resonates with my story. And I remember the head coach there called me and said he'd chased this kid down and their mum had sold cricket to them, saying, Look, you look quite sporty. Have you tried cricket? And to find out that that kid not only, like, twelve months later, was playing in that community hub, then kicked on to being part of the county programme, maybe it's like a little bit selfish, but it replicates my story of like someone who didn't think this sport was for them and now is like flourishing and loves it.

Presenter40:02

Ebenee, I'm desperate to hear your seventh disc to day. What have you got for us next?

Ebony Rainford-Brent40:06

Yeah, this song is uh called Superheroes. I think that's what I think of when I think of all the young people coming through. It's also by Stormzy. This is a bit about sort of black British excellence, but also the multiculturalism. He relates to, I think, the young audience at the moment of all sorts of different backgrounds. So it kind of makes me think of Ace, the young kids coming through and the current society that we're living in.

Speaker 340:31

Don't die on me

Speaker 340:34

He said

Speaker 340:35

Young black king, don't die on me.

Speaker 340:39

You my brother, you my keeper, I need you to keep an eye on me.

Speaker 340:43

The normal fighter on the streets walking round with all this pride on me

Speaker 340:48

Tough for us already, know that you can still rely on me

Speaker 340:51

Please, just stay alive for me And my young black queens won't quit now

Speaker 340:56

Yeah.

Presenter40:58

Stormzy and superheroes. So Ebony, you talked about what winning felt like personally and being part of that team with that incredible run of success. But I wonder how your victories affected the standing of the women's game in the long term?

Ebony Rainford-Brent41:14

I think it was a major turning point for us and success catapulted us into all of a sudden we were on the front page for the first time in ever. And now where I see we are where you know I've just been at 100 games and women's games are packed or the World Cup in 2017, Lord's being packed and people trying to get tickets. I've been in Australia with 80,000 crowd for the women. Being part of that is really impressive actually as a person to see the before and after because you kind of get a real sense of gratitude actually for the journey and what it means for the women's game now and like now when you see young girls who say they want to play for their country and you know like genuinely you can you can have a career.

Ebony Rainford-Brent41:55

Media playing behind the scenes in administration, it's possible now. It's like it's exciting to see what's happened over the time that I've been involved in the sport.

Presenter42:03

You retired from international cricket in 2012. Why was that the right time for you to step back and stop playing after all you'd been through?

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:09

Stuff.

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:11

Yeah, I think there was a mixture of things going on. One was the practical one of I was thinking, I'm not sure if we're going to make any money in this career. And I remember just looking at my bank balance being like,

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:22

Alright, maybe I need to like. You used to get annoyed about that. Yeah, no, not annoyed, not annoyed, because I also knew I was privileged, like, chasing my dream. And interestingly, if I'd have stayed a few more years, I would have got into this new.

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:33

Era where they are making money, but

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:36

At the time I was just thinking, I don't know, I've got to make a change here, I've got to look for something different. Always battling with the body, and I was thinking, God, do I want to chip away with this?

Ebony Rainford-Brent42:45

And then there was also the sort of history of some amazing memories but also tough ones. I remember just kind of weighing all up and I started to see therapists and I was like, you know what, I think it's time to like find a different me, like find a new identity. I didn't think I don't think I had one other than like an athlete.

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:00

So it felt like quite a big mental transformation and searching.

Presenter43:04

And absolutely a gear change from that single minded, almost obsessive focus that you need to be a top level sports person. How did how did that change? And what changed it? When did that start to kind of unlock?

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:19

Yeah. I think um

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:21

I become a bit more worldly, I guess, rather than and everything wasn't being done. And people aren't telling you what to do. I spent most of my career being told: right, this is your diet, this is your training program, this is where we're going.

Presenter43:22

I guess rather than

Presenter43:24

Inside the bubble.

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:32

Loosely, this is the time we're going to wake up and go to, but like everything was kind of prescribed, and now I'm like, I don't know.

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:38

What am I doing? Like, what am I doing? What does this all look like? Where am I going? I almost have developed a new relationship, like an actual genuine love, which is like love for the sport in a different sort of way.

Ebony Rainford-Brent43:49

And also an appreciation of what it actually did for me. So yeah, I'm done now. I'm definitely, you know, I have a glass of Vino now, which I didn't have before. So I enjoy the retired life. But, you know, moving into commentary, I think, has given me that best next step of still being involved, still keeping the connections, but now being able to enjoy it with a little bit more freedom. You know, I think what is amazing about sport for me is how much it connects people and the power it has for like community and friendship. So I think I now look at it in such a like more holistic way of what it means as a part of my life. Like a massive family.

Presenter44:28

The next challenge that awaits you is, of course, the desert island. We're about to send you off. How do you feel about the prospect of being cast away?

Ebony Rainford-Brent44:32

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent44:35

Not very good about it, to be honest. I'm so social and I struggle without people. So I think the first week or two would be all right. Like you just have a little chill and then I'd be like, We're my mates or organ, I'll be befriending the fish, the birds. But I'd I think I'd back myself to

Ebony Rainford-Brent44:53

To like, I like learning new things. So I just see it as like, okay, let's get stuck in. And how do I farm? How do I fish if I have to? Whatever it's got to be.

Presenter45:01

And what's it like looking back on your own story as we have been today? I mean, do you feel proud?

Ebony Rainford-Brent45:05

Yeah.

Ebony Rainford-Brent45:08

I do. I think more. Do you know the one thing I think I feel most proud of is like resilience actually. I wouldn't even say like happiness, because I think happiness can be there and it cannot be there. I think confidence can be there, cannot be there, those sort of things. But I think if you can bounce back and keep bouncing back despite whatever hits us, that is the thing. So I think that's when I look back at a lot of the things I've gone through and, you know, we touched on today and to go through it and still be here and still smiling actually is the thing I'm most proud of.

Presenter45:38

And your mum must be very proud of it.

Ebony Rainford-Brent45:39

Yeah, she loves it. Yeah, it's nice to make her feel proud as well for everything she's done. So she's she's the ultimate resilience sort of teacher and I think I've taken a bit of her spirit.

Presenter45:49

This island actually.

Ebony Rainford-Brent45:49

I think we got it? Okay, just find me some mates and I'll be alright.

Presenter45:50

Okay, yeah.

Presenter45:52

You're right.

Presenter45:53

You'll have to befriend the fish. All right, one more disc before you go, though. What's your final choice today? Tell us.

Ebony Rainford-Brent45:58

Tell us. Final one is I suppose there's always work to do. Isley Brothers is again one of the sort of classic in that era growing up. Even though song's got a bit of romance, but every time I think I've got work to do, I play this song.

Speaker 446:12

I'm taking care of business, woman can't you see?

Speaker 446:18

I gotta make it for you, and I gotta make it for me. Well, sometimes it seems that I'm neglecting you. Well, I love to spend more time, I got so many things to do.

Speaker 446:35

I got work to do.

Speaker 446:39

I got work for you.

Presenter46:42

The Isley Brothers and work to do. So, Ebony Rainford Bren, I'm going to send you off to the island. I'm going to give you the books to take with you: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take another book of your choice. What do you fancy? I'm taking The Alchemist by Paolo Coelho. Oh, okay. Have you read it?

Ebony Rainford-Brent46:57

Oh, okay.

Presenter46:58

Ah Uh

Ebony Rainford-Brent46:59

Uh

Presenter46:59

Haven't read it, no, should I?

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:00

Should I? Yeah, you should. It's like bit of personal development, bit of chasing your dreams. But every time I read it, it's like has a different meaning. So I feel like if you're trapped on the island and you need a bit of something.

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:11

Every time you read it, you're going to get.

Presenter47:14

Yeah.

Presenter47:15

You could also have a luxury item. What will that be?

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:17

Simply, I'm going with my drum kit. And I also don't I'm not very good at like practicing. I spend a lot of time just jamming to songs. So the good news is for once I'd actually just focus on practicing, like try and get good. And are we talking like full live? Live drum kit. Yeah, for live drum kit. I want all the cymbals. Actually, to be honest, I'd have a quite a tight kit and maybe just have.

Presenter47:25

Yeah.

Presenter47:30

And that we

Presenter47:31

Live drum care

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:38

Uh one floor, um one main tom and then

Presenter47:40

Um

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:42

My symbol one crash and

Presenter47:42

Right symbol, one crash and then job done. And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves, Ebony?

Ebony Rainford-Brent47:51

Oh, I think it would be a long walk, Jill Scott, just that chill music. You'd feel like you're almost on holiday then, wouldn't you? Just.

Presenter47:59

That would set

Ebony Rainford-Brent48:00

That'll set the scene.

Presenter48:00

The seams.

Presenter48:02

Ebony Rainford Brent, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. And thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Ebony Rainford-Brent48:08

Yeah.

Presenter48:30

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ebony. She'll be able to practice drumming to her heart's content on the island. We've cast away many cricketers, including Freddie Flintoff, Rachel Hayho Flint, and Ebony's friend Michael Holding. You can find their episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and on BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Giles Aspen, the assistant producer was Tim Banno, the production coordinator was Susie Roylence, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be Cher. I do hope you'll join us.

Presenter49:23

The Wreath Lectures 2024, hosted by me, Anita Arnand. The series is about the complexity of human violence. All violence is not the same, and all violence perpetrators are not the same. Four questions about violence, explored by the forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Gwen Adshead. By listening to perpetrators, we can learn more about the genesis of violence, and perhaps particularly where we might be able to intervene to reduce the risk of violence happening in the future. The Wreath Lectures from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds.