Frances O'Grady

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is Frances O'Grady, the General Secretary of the British Trades Union Congress, better known as the TUC. She was the first woman to hold the position, taking up the role in 2013. She recently announced that she'd be stepping down after a lifetime spent campaigning on behalf of workers seeking fairer treatment and pay. Her family history is rooted in the union movement. Her grandfather and his father before him were founder members of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union. She learned to negotiate early as one of five siblings and developed a keen interest in history and politics. Growing up in Oxford, she was well aware of the social divide between town and gown, as for her own university years, she was the first member of her family to go, studying politics and modern history in Manchester.

Presenter1:34

Already a trades union member and campaigner, her passion became her career at the Transport and General Workers' Union, where she campaigned for a national minimum wage and equal pay for women. She moved over to the TUC as campaign secretary in 1994, founding the TUC Organising Academy, a scheme aimed at making the labour movement younger and more representative. She says, You instil in people the hope and the confidence that if we act collectively, we can change things for the better. This is the trick we have to pull. Frances O'Grady welcome to Dazza Island Discs. Thank you very much indeed. What a treat. Francis, in the last couple of years, we've seen so much disruption in the workplace as staff and businesses have tried to keep going through the pandemic. Now, you were a key figure in discussions ahead of the first lockdown with the Chancellor Rishi Sunak as he worked to put together a furlough scheme. What were your key concerns back then? It was really intense and really fast-moving because we were all too aware in the trade union movement that some big companies were on the brink and about to go under and that meant job losses and misery for families concerned. So our

Speaker 12:37

And that makes s

Presenter2:44

Big goal was to avoid mass unemployment. We published a report, got it over to the Chancellor's office setting out what we thought would be a fair furlough scheme, a job retention scheme, so that you would put support for business through wage packets as the best way to defend not only companies but jobs and make sure it was fair. We got mainly what we wanted. I mean, I had long conversations with him and then he called us in along with business leaders and made the announcement the following day that we would get 80% of pay with a cap, so it was weighted towards the lower paid and middle-income workers. We didn't get everything we wanted. We wanted some conditionality on employers in terms of skills training so that workers would be able to use that downtime to sharpen their skills, keep practising their skills. We didn't get everything we wanted, but nevertheless, at its peak, it saved 12 million livelihoods. So that was a real achievement for the whole trade union movement.

Speaker 13:16

So

Speaker 13:27

Snap.

Speaker 13:30

What was Jitsay?

Speaker 13:47

The vaccine.

Presenter3:51

And we've gone from one very intense time to, you know, another, of course. There's so much concern out there at the moment about this cost of living crisis. And one of the drivers is the fact that wages have largely stagnated for the last decade now. Do you think trade unions have lost their bargaining power to change that, or some of their bargaining power to change that? The evidence is clear that where people are union members, they're still doing better on pay than the average worker. So there's still that union premium if you do join up. But without doubt, you know, we've had over 10 years of austerity, wage freezes, real wage cuts. And now, of course, we've got inflation and energy bills in particular going through the roof and a lot of families really struggling. So we need the government to step up. We've been calling for an emergency budget. It's really tough. And I'm not sure every politician in government understands just how tough it is for people who don't necessarily have a lot of savings in the bank and are living week to week. And when those prices go up, it hurts. So today, Francis, it's all about your life, your work, but also, of course, your music. Let's start with your first. What are we going to hear? It's Not Unusual by Tom Jones. And this was the first, ever and only live music event I went to with my mum when I was about nine in Bournemouth Winter Gardens and we were up in the heavens watching this tiny Tom Jones with a big voice perform. It's not unusual so it's it's my tribute to my mum really. When would this have been? 1968. Oh 68. Good time to get Tom. Were any knickers thrown? I don't remember that. I do remember having these little binoculars. It was full of middle-aged women.

Speaker 15:31

Yeah.

Presenter5:38

Really enjoying the fact that that was a good lesson, I thought, in life.

Speaker 15:39

That was a good

Presenter5:42

But this woman passed me these little um I suppose their opera glasses, are they, so that I could see better. To see so many women having a great time, that was a good inspiration.

Frances O'Grady5:54

It's not unused you want to be loved by anyone.

Frances O'Grady5:59

It's not unusual to have fun with anyone.

Frances O'Grady6:04

But when I see you hanging about with anyone

Frances O'Grady6:10

It's not unusual to see me cry on a die.

Frances O'Grady6:17

It's not unusual to go out at any time.

Presenter6:23

Tom Jones and it's not unusual. So Frances O'Grady, we've almost had a night out with your mum there, so I think we should find out a bit more about her. Rita, she was born in Dublin, wasn't she? She's a Dubliner, Cabra born. What brought her to the UK?

Speaker 16:33

Is it

Speaker 16:35

What brought us?

Presenter6:36

My dad was born here and he went over there. He's obviously of Irish heritage too. But he went over there to Dublin, met and married my mum over there and then they both came back over here for work. You're the youngest of five, but she it sounds like she worked outside the home as well.

Speaker 16:50

Yeah.

Presenter6:53

What did she do? She worked in Jacob's Biscuit Factory in Dublin first off, but then shop work over here. But she ended her working life as a ward clerk for the local hospital and she loved the NHS. Friday nights out with the girls, she really loved it. So it was that kind of sense of work and community interconnecting?

Frances O'Grady6:54

Uh

Speaker 17:04

Yeah.

Presenter7:14

Yeah, and having a good time.

Presenter7:16

And what kind of household was yours if we'd kind of eavesdropped on a a typical night in with the five of you and your mum and dad? What was it like? Busy, crowded, four girls, one boy. Who got the bedrooms? How did that shake down? My mum and dad in one room, four of us girls in the other. Wow.

Frances O'Grady7:33

What?

Speaker 17:33

L.

Presenter7:34

And my brother had a little box room that literally had the bed in. It was crowded. But lively. We heard about the family history a little bit in in the introduction there. Were there lots of debates around the dinner table? I would say that my sisters are all strong women.

Speaker 17:47

Bye.

Presenter7:51

And we're all opinionated. And when we did the pandemic, for some reason we're on this platform called House Party. Oh, yes, a sort of group chat, I guess. Yes. And I did realize, and that this happens in real life as well as on screen, but somehow seeing it on screen was that we all talk a lot and we all talk simultaneously. So

Speaker 17:54

Yeah.

Speaker 17:56

Well

Speaker 18:03

Oh yes, a sort of group chat type thing.

Presenter8:17

You know, it's lively, but great siblings. And that must have been good training for being part of the union movement, having to make your voice heard.

Speaker 18:20

THAT

Speaker 18:23

And having to make your voice heard.

Presenter8:25

And maybe learning listening skills as well. Let's hear some more music, Frances. This is your second choice. What have you gone for? Dex's Midnight Runners, Burn It Down. And I think this is a good second generation Irish song. At the time, people sometimes forget there was a lot of anti-Irish prejudice. There was the civil rights movement in the north of Ireland in the 70s, and then that spilling into violence and conflict. It was commonplace to hear on the telly comedians telling anti-Irish jokes. You got it in the street, you know, anybody with an Irish name. So, this to me is all about being really proud of your heritage.

Frances O'Grady9:20

Right.

Frances O'Grady9:22

Don't

Frances O'Grady9:23

Scott!

Frances O'Grady9:25

No.

Frances O'Grady9:27

A fight start with a flurry Shut your mouth to rubber

Speaker 19:31

Yeah.

Presenter9:39

Dexie's Midnight Runners and Burn It Down. So, Frances, let's talk a bit more about your family. Your vocation is deeply intertwined with the roots of your family. Trade unionism goes way back for you. Your grandfather and great-grandfather, founder members both of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union. How aware were you of that family story when you were growing up, when you were little?

Presenter10:03

I was with my granddad, my Dublin granddad. He was just a very kind and lovely man, you know, a decent man. And I think there are lots of those out there, you know, who just want to stand up for fellow workers. He gave me pamphlets and books and stuff as well. He was a great reader. He would take out five books every week from the library and, you know, one of those classic, I suppose, self-educated men. And what about your dad? He was born over here and he worked on the production line at British Leyland. Yes, Cowley. So he was a shop steward there. Yes, he was. I know people talk about British Leyland as being a basket case in the 70s. You know, workers are often demonised when they stand up and demand better. And people sometimes forget just how tough it was because you go into a modern car plant now and you could eat your dinner off the floor. But then they were not great places to work. They were hot and they were dangerous. Lots of accidents at work. My dad had a couple of big accidents off work for long periods of time. What happened to him? Machinery fall in on him. People getting together and demanding better seems to me the right thing to do. And it was clearly there was a lot of industrial conflict, but it takes two to tango. And sometimes when the boss won't listen or won't compromise, workers are left with no alternative. But the only thing you can do is withdraw your labour.

Speaker 110:23

Yeah.

Speaker 110:32

Yes, Cowley.

Speaker 111:07

What happened to the

Presenter11:29

What happened to the family when there was an i industrial action happening?

Presenter11:33

Well, there wouldn't be much money. And how old would you have been back then? Did you have to kind of step up and help out? Or was it just a question of not being able to? All of my sisters and my brother and me, we all had jobs from an early age. My favourite one was working in a news agent where I had a lovely boss woman and I read all the papers and all the magazines and had the radio on all day, you know, so that was great. But I worked in the Oxford colleges, in the kitchens. We all had jobs.

Speaker 111:39

Or is it just a question of not being able to

Presenter12:02

Alright Francis, let's have some more music. This is number three. What are we going to hear and why are you taking it with you? Number three is double barrel Dave and Ansell Collins. This is the first ever club I went to in Oxford. It's a reggae and scar club. And I had bought myself a new tank top, which I was so proud of. I had self-administered a feather cut.

Presenter12:28

and thought I looked the bee's knees. I was an aspiring rude girl and this came on and everybody went into a long line to dance together with the same moves and I just will always remember it. It was fantastic.

Frances O'Grady12:43

And the magnificent.

Frances O'Grady12:45

And I'm back with the shatter of sword balls with the most thundering, stormy, sales hole.

Frances O'Grady12:54

I am W O O O O

Frances O'Grady12:57

And I'm still here again.

Frances O'Grady13:00

Rock and sock and hole jock

Presenter13:15

Dave and Ansel Collins and Double Barrel. So Francis O'Grady, we heard a little bit about your fashion sense as a teenager there. Love the feathercut and the tank top combination. What sort of teenager were you in terms of character at school? Quite studious? You loved reading all those newspapers at the news agent? I did love reading and I still love reading. But I think I went through a bit of a stage at 15 where I probably found school more difficult, I think. Why was that? I think I was desperate to get on with life and to be independent and have adventures and it felt quite constraining. There was a kind of period where I was perhaps not as attending as often as I should. In terms of then moving into A-levels and things, I did have an absolutely wonderful teacher called Mrs. Stone, Scottish woman, who sort of got me by the scruff of the neck, really. And she was the one who got me to apply for university. She invited me round to her and her husband's house and did a mock interview for me. I was grateful to her. That's something I know that teachers do all the time. You know, they are constantly making a difference, aren't they? Did you ever get the chance to thank her? No, so thank you, Mrs. Stone. And I don't know whether she realises that, but it was absolutely a turning point for me. And so it was you made it to university, you went to Manchester and you studied modern history and politics. And what did your family make of you going to uni? Because you were the youngest of five and the first one. Yeah, I'm not sure my mum and dad really understood what it was I was doing. I think it was the university bit rather than the course, if you like, that they got. And I think in many ways that showed when I left because, again, I didn't have a clue what then was supposed to happen. I sort of suddenly noticed loads of other people had got jobs lined up or were no, exactly. And I think probably quite a lot of people from my sort of background are in the same

Speaker 115:16

Oh no map to to hand you.

Presenter15:23

Position that you have this amazing time where you think you're all equal, and then you discover you're not because you don't have contacts.

Presenter15:32

We'll find out what happened next in a minute first, though. It's time for your next disc, Francis. What's it going to be? Well, it has to be Joy Division, and I've chosen Atmosphere. I remember going to see them at the Factory Club, and at first, it was like, what is this? It felt like a dirge, you know, after all that high-energy music. And then becoming absolutely mesmerised by them, and Ian Curtis in particular, who was just an incredible performer. So, atmosphere.

Frances O'Grady16:16

In Sylvan.

Frances O'Grady16:24

Inside one

Frances O'Grady16:28

Your confusions

Frances O'Grady16:32

My illusion

Presenter16:34

Joy division and atmosphere. So, Francis O'Grady, let's find out where you went next. Without a map, after university, you came down to London. What was the plan at that stage? I didn't have a clue what to do, so I go back to working in hospitality, working in shops. But my goal was to live in London because I thought after Manchester, there was nowhere else to go other than London. And I did manage to move to London. Where were you? In Hackney, sharing a room which was very orange, orange bedspread, orange walls, orange carpets, but only a tenor a week. But it was quite tough, actually. It was quite tough. It's always been an expensive city. Whereas Manchester, it was so friendly. Did you feel lonely? It was a bit lonely. My brother shared these letters I wrote to him at the time where I can now tell I was putting a brave face on it because it wasn't a great success at the start. You know, at least I'd found somewhere, but I wasn't having a great time. Did you feel a bit lost? Having gone to university, loved it. There must have been a sense that you were going to be the one from the family who went off and did things and had these adventures that you'd always wanted.

Speaker 117:47

That you feel this one.

Presenter17:48

I think I probably did feel a bit lost. I hadn't found what it was that I loved doing yet until.

Presenter17:55

I started getting involved in the union. And how did that happen? So tell me a little bit first about the jobs that you were doing. So shop work, bars? Shop work, hospitality and the voluntary sector. And I suppose I just started getting more and more involved in the union. I joined the Transport in General at one place. I became a rep. I realised I enjoyed representing people. I became more confident about doing that as a role. What was it that you enjoyed about it?

Speaker 117:58

And

Speaker 118:02

Short work.

Presenter18:24

I enjoyed the whole thing really, that you've got a group of people who deserve better, that you're figuring out how to present a case, you're taking up injustices, you're trying to get the most you can out of the boss. I kind of found myself and I went on a trade union education course which was really important to me, meeting other reps from different walks of life, the airlines, all sorts. So you begin to feel part of something bigger. And then eventually I did apply for a job at the Transport and General Workers Union with Ron Todd. That would be 1989. Yeah, we got his general secretary and I got it. And I was just delighted, you know, that I'd found what I wanted to do. So you knew it was a visit. Yeah.

Speaker 119:02

Weapons Todd. That would be in 1989.

Speaker 119:14

This was it.

Presenter19:16

Yeah. Let's have some more music, Frances. This is number five. What have you got for us, and why are you taking it to the island today?

Presenter19:22

This is Tom Brown and Toni Smith, who should be credited because she co-wrote this, Funkin' for Jamaica. And I guess I've chosen this because it reminds me of the amount of dancing we do in our kitchen, have always done, and it's important to have some good dance music.

Frances O'Grady19:44

Yeah.

Frances O'Grady19:52

Coming for Jamaica

Presenter20:11

Tom Brown, and as you rightly point out, Francis O'Grady, Tony Smith, funking for Jamaica. So you moved to the TUC in 1994, and I want to ask a little bit about the culture of trade unions as it was back then. I mean, the stereotype was that it's very macho, you know, the rooms were smoky, the men were blokey, there's lots of shouting. Was it like that when you were first joined and when you were coming up?

Presenter20:36

I'd say there is definitely an element of that. I think it is one of the things that is changing but has to change faster because I don't think it is right to treat the trade union movement as some kind of blokes club. This is a movement that's made up of majority women. Our two biggest unions, one in the public sector, one in the private sector, are now both led by women. So it is changing from the top to the bottom. But I think some of those cultures still have further to go. It's important that the union movement looks and feels like the workforce we aim to represent. And it's as simple as that. And also I think women do bring different life experiences. You know, I remember even when I was deputy at the TUC, you know, when the washing machine broke down and I was spending Saturday nights in the laundrette and I was thinking how many blokes have ever done this, ever had to do it?

Speaker 121:04

Uh

Presenter21:35

To do a kind of demanding job and to run a home. And on that subject of balancing work and life while also getting on, you've built this career while also being a lone parent to two children. I know that you've talked about your struggles with the Golden Triangle, particularly when your kids were little. What was that?

Speaker 121:51

Bang.

Presenter21:54

Just that whole thing that millions and millions of women, mainly women, but also men go through. Where before you even get to work, you've been up at the cracker dawn, you've got them up, you've got them washed, you've got them dressed, you drop one off at the nursery, then you have to get on the bus to drop the other one off at school, and then you have to get into work. And I'll be honest, there were times I'd get into work and I think they ought to be grateful I'm even here because I'm knackered before 8:55 a.m. So it is one of the reasons why I think.

Frances O'Grady22:21

Already on the nightmare.

Frances O'Grady22:23

8.55 a.m.

Presenter22:27

how we organize work, the hours that we work, the intensity of them, that all matters alongside money because for lots of women in particular, especially if you're a single parent,

Presenter22:41

The idea of even getting a job is a massive hurdle unless you've got support in place. You became the general secretary of the TUC in 2013, Francis, and as we've said, you know, you're the first woman in that role. Do those kinds of firsts matter to you, and if so, why? Well, only in so much as you think, why did it take so bloody long? You know, and it shouldn't do. And when I first got elected, I got amazing feedback and support from activists in the trade union movement who were just so pleased in a way that I suppose I hadn't really understood that it was just important. The same way I feel it in other walks of life when I do see women doing well, it gives me a lift. Symbolically, it was important, emotionally, it was important for a lot of people. I still have that thing that women, very often, we still feel we have to prove ourselves. So, that thing of working twice as hard, and that's still a problem, I think, because that shouldn't have to be that way. We all should just be able to do our best and be proud of what we do.

Presenter23:50

It's time for some more music right now. Frances, your next disc. What's it going to be?

Presenter23:55

Oh, so this is Barbara Lewis' Hello Stranger, and this was one my children suggested. I really loved the fact that they've chosen a track that's further back than me, even. But every time I listen to it, I kind of imagine myself in a long evening dress with a long drink. It just feels so glamorous. I love it.

Frances O'Grady24:20

Hello, stranger.

Frances O'Grady24:29

It seems so good to see you back again. How long has it been?

Frances O'Grady24:38

It seemed like a married long time, my baby woo.

Frances O'Grady24:47

It seems like a mighty long time

Presenter24:52

Barbara Lewis and Hello Stranger. So Frances O'Grady, recent figures suggest that union membership climbed slightly recently, 6.6 million people in the UK now members of a union, up from a low of 6.2 million in 2017. So it's growing slowly, but taking a longer view, 1979, 13 million trade union members, so we're at half that number now. Have people turned their backs on the trade union movement? What's going on there? Well, I think as you say, it's now modestly growing, but I'm not complacent at all. And I think it's a pattern that we've seen in lots of countries, but where I think we could be turning a corner. You know, you can see in the United States with Amazon, New York.

Presenter25:39

Fighting a really tough battle against union busting, but managing to win union recognition there. We've had big breakthroughs in companies like Uber and Ryanair, you know, some platform companies that we were told we were never going to organise. Well, we are. But it's tough and there are a number of reasons. Partly the loss of a lot of manufacturing industries, the growth of smaller workplaces that are harder to organise. So the infrastructure's changing. Also, because the framework of law has just not kept pace with the balance of power in the workplace. So I think most people agree that the balance of power has gone too far in favour of bad bosses and that too many millions of workers are on insecure contracts and low pay. But we still have lots of anti-union laws that make it really hard for unions to take strike action without being dragged through the courts. But like I say, we're a resilient movement. I kind of feel there is a mood change. You know, we've seen so many cases of disgraceful treatment of workers, fire and rehire, zero hours. You know, people feel that this is wrong, especially after the pandemic when we had so many workers putting their health on the line for the rest of us, that we're going to have to organise if we want fair treatment for them too.

Speaker 126:11

Dumb j

Presenter27:07

One of the most high profile cases recently was PO Ferries. They recently broke the law and sacked 800 workers without notice in March, despite having many union members in their workforce. What's your response to that, Stephen? It's shameful. It's so shameful that a company like PO, which is owned by multinational conglomerate DP World, that makes billions of pounds in profit, said that in order to save a few Bob, it was going to sack nearly 800 workers over Zoom.

Speaker 127:32

Okay.

Presenter27:42

Replace them with agency labour on less than half the national statutory minimum wage in this country. And I think lots of people feel really shocked that they have effectively priced it in and got away with it. That just shows you how weak our legal rights are for workers in the UK, because they couldn't get away with that in other countries. You think they have got away with it, or you don't have to do that? Well, we're still determined that they're not going to. But the government could have taken.

Speaker 128:09

I think we're still determined.

Presenter28:16

Strong action from the start. If the government had said very clearly that we're taking away all your contracts and if you don't reinstate those workers, then we will take over this company as an operator of last resort, make the government do that, just as they've done in the rail industry when we've had train operating companies fail. They could have done that. They could have done that. And that would have sent a strong message, not just to PO, but to every bad employer out there, that the government is not going to stand by and let this happen.

Speaker 128:39

Thank you.

Presenter28:51

It's time for your next piece of music, Francis. What's it gonna be? I've chosen Gil Scott Heron, Pieces of a Man.

Presenter29:00

And I think he writes poetically about the daily indignities, injustices that people face, the hurt and harm that's caused from unemployment, losing your job, redundancy.

Presenter29:14

It's important to me because winning that job retention scheme that did save the livelihoods of twelve million workers, which was a trade union achievement, I think it explains why this is so important in a really personal, beautiful way.

Frances O'Grady29:33

Jagged jigsaw pennies

Frances O'Grady29:40

Tossed about the room

Frances O'Grady29:47

I saw my grandma sweeping

Frances O'Grady29:54

With her old straw broom

Frances O'Grady30:01

But she didn't know what she was doing.

Frances O'Grady30:08

She could hardly understand

Frances O'Grady30:19

That she wasn't really sleeping up

Frances O'Grady30:27

Peace is love for man.

Presenter30:33

Gil Scott Heron and Pieces of a Man. So Francis O'Grady, you recently announced that you're going to be standing down after almost 10 years of being in the top job at the TUC. What are you looking forward to, I wonder, about doing that first day after you leave, the phone goes off, you've turned it off. I am not getting out of bed until after midday. A lion. Definitely a lion. These jobs are intense and they are demanding. That's why it's good to have new blood, new energy, new ideas coming in. So I'm looking forward to a really good rest. Well, going from being a person who gets things done to a person who has absolutely nothing to do, I'm going to cast you away.

Speaker 130:55

Yeah.

Presenter31:16

How do you feel about the the concept of complete solitude and isolation and bone idleness? Oh, I'd love it for a bit. And then I would get

Presenter31:26

You know, angsty. I'd be missing family, friends, wanting to get out back out there. I'd be trying to use my DIY skills to. Oh, how are they?

Speaker 131:34

How are they?

Presenter31:35

I think I can safely say that what I lack in skill I make up for in enthusiasm. I am Muzbotch Job. So again, it wouldn't necessarily be a very safe vessel, would it? But I'd have a go.

Speaker 131:41

I am

Presenter31:48

But I would enjoy having time alone to think and relax. So you'd build a vessel, you'd try and escape, you think? Oh, I reckon at some point whether I was brave enough to get into whatever I'd created. Give it a week or two. Gotcha.

Speaker 131:53

Yeah.

Speaker 131:56

At some point whether I was brave enough.

Speaker 132:00

Give it a week.

Speaker 132:01

Got it.

Presenter32:02

Well, one more tune before you go. What are we going to hear? A change is going to come. Sam Cook, because I think this is the anthem for the whole movement, really.

Frances O'Grady32:13

I was born.

Frances O'Grady32:15

By the river

Frances O'Grady32:19

In a little tent.

Frances O'Grady32:21

Oh, and just like the river I've been running.

Speaker 132:24

But I've been running

Frances O'Grady32:27

Ever since it's been a long

Frances O'Grady32:34

Long time coming, but I know

Frances O'Grady32:38

Change gon' come.

Frances O'Grady32:42

Oh yes it

Presenter32:43

Sam Cooke, a change is gonna come. So, Francis O'Grady, it's time for me to send you away to the island. Naturally, I'm giving you the books to take with you, the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. You can take one other book. What will that be? Of course, if I didn't have the Bible, I'd have Seamus Heaney's complete works. But the book I'm going to choose is Elsa Marante History.

Presenter33:06

It's a big book. It'll keep me busy. Tell us a little bit about it and I just remember reading it as a teenager and it was about the aftermath of the Second World War and these huge upheavals of people and what it all meant for one particular woman and her children. Incredible book.

Presenter33:24

It's yours. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Presenter33:28

I thought

Presenter33:29

I would go for some oil paints and brushes and an easel. This would be my time. I'd have loads of time to completely lose myself in painting, which I like doing, but never have enough time to do. And then in the easel that I'd have this infinite supply of jelly babies as well.

Presenter33:48

Unfortunately for you, I'm not feeling super generous today, but what if we were able to give you your easel, your painting set, but the paints were edible? Because edible paints are a thing. I think that's perfect.

Presenter34:02

Wonderful. That's your luxury item. And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you rush to save from the waves if you had to? I think I'll go for double barrel. For the dancing.

Presenter34:14

Francis O'Gready, thank you very much for letting us see your desert island discs. Thank you so much. It's been absolutely wonderful. Thank you.

Presenter34:42

Hello, I hope that Francis is happy on our island, painting away and having a well-earned rest. We've cast other trade union leaders away to our island over the years. They include Ron Todd, Jimmy Knapp, Arthur Scargill and Lord Bill Morris. You can hear the programmes if you search through our Desert Island Discs programme archive or on BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Next time my guest will be the actor Rita Tushingham. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 435:39

Uncanny is back.

Speaker 435:41

The Hit Paranormal Podcast returns with a summer special that will chill you to the bone.

Speaker 435:47

It was a real dream holiday, really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell.

Speaker 135:55

Whatever was in that room wanted to do us harm, they wanted to frighten us.

Speaker 435:59

The uncanny summer special.

Speaker 436:02

Out now.

Speaker 436:03

What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds.