Gary Barlow

Speaker 40:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:04

I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:45

My castaway this week is one of Britain's best-loved entertainers. That might sound like quite an old school term, but I think it's one he will identify with. As he once put it, cut me and I bleed sparkly shirts and piano solos. Entertainment has always been at the heart of his work, and Gary Barlow cut his teeth the hard way. As a teenager, he played gigs at working men's clubs every night, and by the age of 21, he had made it as part of the hottest boy band in Britain, a group initially built around his songwriting talent. Pray, everything changes, back for good, take that scored hit after hit, and after their 2005 reboot, reached even greater heights. Life hasn't all been spotlights and encores, though. His wilderness years after the band split up were painful, featuring writer's block, a public feud with Robbie Williams, and a battle with disordered eating. He found his way back to the piano eventually, and these days, if you're looking to put on a show, whether it's a musical theatre production, a gig to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, or a prime time TV talent show, Gary Barlow is the person you call. He says, I like to play down what I do, say I don't take it too seriously, but that's a solid lie. I take it really seriously. There's nothing more exciting, nothing, than the feeling when a song starts to reveal itself. Gary Barlow, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Gary Barlow2:11

Well, there's nothing to say. You've said it all so brilliantly.

Presenter2:15

Well, don't worry, we've got quite a lot to cover still. So with over a dozen number one hits and six Ivanovello Awards so far, you know enough about writing hits to state that anybody who tells you they know how to do it is lying. So with that in mind, how do you do it?

Gary Barlow2:31

Do you know what? I constantly wake with the fear that that little bit of luck that seems to have followed me around for 30 years has now vanished because I never actually feel like I really know. I just sit, I play, and sometimes I get something good, and sometimes I sit all day and get nothing. So, there is no secret. I love the process of it. I mean, the challenge of sitting and coming up with something brand new that no one's ever come up with before, it's terrifically exciting. And then imagining thousands of people singing it back to you, it's incredible. But ask me how I do it, I have no idea.

Presenter3:07

And that moment when a song starts to reveal itself, as you put it, what's that like? How does that feel?

Gary Barlow3:13

I think that's almost the most exciting part actually, because it's like you're given a little piece of gold dust. And once you've been given that little bit, then I believe you add your skill to it. Then it's the solving of the puzzle, the making the pieces fit, then you know how you want to perform it, how you want to speak what this music and these lyrics are to the audience. It's an amazing process. It still amazes me now that you go through these levels of studying this, you know, should we take a second off here? And all of a sudden it's out into the world and then becomes part of your life and bizarrely a part of a lot of other people's lives as well.

Presenter3:55

Your appeal is very broad and you're clear about not just wanting to write songs, but to write hits. I wonder what the difference is for you.

Presenter4:03

Um

Gary Barlow4:04

Funny, I don't ever think about it so crudely if I'm honest, but you know, when I listen to the radio and I hear something that catches my ear and I sing it all day, I just think it's clever. I think it's clever that you can get into someone's head. And I love it when people say, That new song of yours, I hate it, I can't stop singing it. It's like, yes, we did it.

Presenter4:27

And when and where do song ideas come to you most easily? I think you've described it as a discipline rather than a kind of emotional experience for you.

Gary Barlow4:35

I think the the initial arrival of a song is an emotional thing because I can get it when I'm in the car, I can get it when I'm s by myself in a restaurant. It can come to me at a ridiculous time, but then the discipline is sitting and working out the the sort of science of it, I guess. That's almost the easy bit, but the bit of catching the butterfly, that's the chase always. And like I say, whenever something unique and special comes to me, it always feels like a blessing and never something which I just expect to happen.

Presenter5:10

And of course you've had success as a solo artist and with Take That 2. Does performing in each capacity have a different feel?

Gary Barlow5:18

It actually has a completely different feel, especially the live performance. When I'm with, I always call them my brothers, but when we're together, I don't know, there's less pressure I always feel. I'm a spoke in a wheel. And when you're by yourself, the sort of two hours of everyone just looking at you feels very different. It's a harder show, I think, by myself, but always as enjoyable. I love performing live. My first live performance was when I was 11, so I've spent years and years on a stage and love it.

Presenter5:52

And is there a place for music in your life that isn't directly connected to your work? Do you listen for pleasure?

Gary Barlow5:59

I think when you're in music, the the pleasurable listening experience becomes a challenge because you can't ever just let the acceptance of what you're hearing wash over you. You've always got to go, Oh, what was that in the right hand speaker? You can't help but start to dissect it and think, That's clever. How did they do that? But there are definitely times, I think we're going to do it today, where I can sit and just appreciate the beauty and the artistry of the people who've made these songs.

Presenter6:32

Let's hear some music then, Gary Barlow. Tell me about your first disc today. Why have you chosen this?

Gary Barlow6:37

My first disc today came into my life when on my fourth Christmas I'd asked for a record from Father Christmas and in my stocking came a song that I loved. I must have been hearing it on the radio because it just had caught my ear and it was in my stocking and of course for the next three or four months it was all I played and whenever I hear it it takes me back to that Christmas in my hometown of Frogchum in our little house and that Christmassy feeling and I love it.

Gary Barlow7:10

Like a rhinestone cow Oh.

Speaker 37:16

Riding out on a horse and a star spangling rodeo

Speaker 37:23

Michael Rhyme Storm Cowboy.

Speaker 37:28

Getting cards and letters from people I don't even know.

Speaker 37:35

And Awful's coming over the phone

Presenter7:41

Glen Campbell and Rhinestone Cowboy.

Presenter7:44

Gary Bollow, you what's known in music circles as a gearhound. That is a collector of music and production equipment. So basically a nerd, right? I mean, what level?

Gary Barlow7:53

What level of

Presenter7:54

What level of nerdery are we talking here? I need to know how big this collection is.

Gary Barlow7:58

Well, most of my studio is a lifetime of collecting equipment, actually. So I've got things from when the wall came down in Germany. I've bought a lot of microphones and things that weren't available to the outside world. I've got old Russian compressors and I've got all of my old synths from the 80s when all I did was go to work to earn money to buy synths, DX7, Juno 106, Jupiter. I mean, I've got all those still. And I'm going to try and defend myself here now because I can already feel people judging me. I really believe that to do what I do to the extent I want to do it, you've got to love it. You've got to be obsessed by it. You've got to be passionate to the degree that people will go, really? You go that far? Because I want it to be great. I want people to listen to it and go, wow, someone's really thought about this.

Presenter8:52

And it is a tendency that's shared among many of the greats. I mean, I know that you chatted mics with Prince.

Gary Barlow8:58

Do you know what? I chatted more than Mike's. I swear, when I met Prince, I mean, I was fascinated that it was Prince, but I don't know why I threw like a gear question at him. And honest to God, I couldn't get rid of him. I honestly couldn't. And there were people trying to get in on the conversation that very quickly just turned their backs and walked off. I couldn't shut him up. He was taking it to a whole new level that even I was disgusted. It was fantastic. It was like two guys throwing mud at each other. It was brilliant.

Presenter9:34

Now I know that recently you've been uh lending your considerable focus to what you call chilling the beep out.

Presenter9:41

Other than music, what do you enjoy doing?

Gary Barlow9:45

Um, I love being at home. I just love being at home. I race back there daily and I love spending time with the kids. I love being with my wife. We're sort of on our second version of who we are because, you know, our kids are growing up. We're starting to get our own selves back now and we're enjoying our sort of second marriage. It's lovely. That's what I've spend my time fighting to get at because I'm away from home a lot. So whenever I can get back there, that's how I chill and how I find my feet and my centre again.

Presenter10:18

Quite a bit of yogurt as well, I think.

Gary Barlow10:20

I do yoga. I love yoga. When I'm in a flow, and it's usually when I'm on tour, I find that life can be very balanced on tour because, unlike the rest of the year, I know I'm on stage at 8:30 and I know I'm going to have my lunch at 1 and I'm going to have my dinner at 5 and I know that I can do my yoga in the morning and I get time to do it. And when I do it, I'm actually a much nicer person to be around.

Presenter10:46

And it sounds like you're a sensational cook these days.

Gary Barlow10:50

Do you cook a lot? I think um you'd have to ask the people I cook for on on the results. But I'm not bad. I'm not bad. I do try and cook every day. I love to cook.

Presenter10:59

Back to the music then, Gary Barlow. Tell me about your second choice. Why have you chosen this one?

Gary Barlow11:03

Well, this particular song was a light bulb moment for me. As a child who watched Top of the Pops religiously every Thursday, all of a sudden I turn on the TV and the first act is a group called Depeche Mode. And they're playing music, which all of a sudden really connected with me. I loved the sound of it. I loved the brightness. I loved the modern feel. I just loved it. And there he was, Vince Clark, playing a synthesizer. And it just looked like the most inc I mean it was like watching God doing something. I was like, how do I be him? I want to be that man right there in that group playing those notes. And so it was a light bulb moment for me. I all of a sudden knew where I wanted to be and it was on that stage.

Speaker 311:56

I'm with you, baby. I go out of my head. But I just can't get enough. I just can't get enough.

Speaker 312:04

All the things you do to me and everything you said I just can't get lost, I just can't get enough

Speaker 312:11

We're super glad that we fall in love.

Speaker 312:15

I'm just a sentiment to get it

Presenter12:30

Depeche Mode, with just can't get enough. Gary Barlow, Depeche Mode, taking you back to your first keyboard. Did your love of music surprise your family? I mean, to what extent was music already a part of family life?

Gary Barlow12:42

We did trace the connection with music and it did run through the family. My dad's next door neighbour's grandma played the piano. That was the nearest link we had. My mum plays a little bit, but it wasn't something that was passed down in the family, definitely not.

Presenter12:59

But it was definitely encouraged.

Gary Barlow13:01

Do you know what? It really was encouraged and I I have to thank my mum and dad eternally for that. One of the biggest things that my mum and dad did was that when I needed a keyboard that was more challenging to take my skills on, I think I was about eleven at the time.

Presenter13:18

Was this your second Yamaha for the heads out?

Gary Barlow13:20

I had a tiny one, a tiny keyboard to start with for Christmas, which had mini notes. And within sort of 48 hours, I was playing carols and everything just sort of from here, using left and right hand. And then about three months later, I took my dad to a music shop to sort of go, What's next? You know, and this guy showed us this, like a two-manual with bass, like an organ, like a Yamaha organ. And I saw my dad ask the price of it, and I saw his face drop. I think it was £400. And he sold all his time off at work to pay for this organ. And really, that was the turning point because once I got that and then thought, oh, this isn't as easy as that little thing, it took me sort of six months to really get the grasp of it. And once I had that, I knew I had a career then because when I played it, the neighbours had come in and people would clap at the end and people would be happy. And I thought, if I can do this in a bedroom, I can do this for an audience.

Speaker 413:33

Wow.

Presenter14:23

So how important is it to you that your kids have music in their lives? Is that something that you've been keen for them to learn?

Gary Barlow14:31

Do you know what? I've never pushed it. I've let them sort of go off and discover their own musical tastes. But, you know, if any of them said to me, I want to do music, what can I say? I particularly remember the conversation with my mum. She wanted me to always go to music school and I remember saying, but I can't. I'm going to be a pop star. And for her to not laugh in my face sort of says it all, really. They were always supportive to the fact that I knew what I wanted to do.

Presenter14:41

What?

Presenter15:00

And the idea that you are self-taught, does that give you a a kind of different perspective, a different approach, perhaps?

Gary Barlow15:06

Yeah, originally I was self-taught for the sort of first 12 months. I did then go quite to town on music. I learnt to read music. It was important to me that I really wanted to know, give me the rules of music, because once I knew the rules of music, then as a writer, I knew how to break them. Because songwriting is about doing something different, doing notes that aren't in the scale, making a change that isn't in the relative chord. It's about breaking the rules. And I actually spent years when I felt like I wasn't ever using the skills I was taught when I was back at 12. And it's funny, you know, because there came a moment sort of six years ago when I started to write musicals where I was starting to recall the things I was taught. You know, when you write musicals all of a sudden, the keyboard grows. All of a sudden, I've got 88 notes. So I really felt blessed that I'd had the time to develop as a musician, as a writer, and a singer. And for me, having those years of being in a bedroom and being able to make mistakes and not be being judged, it was crucial for me.

Presenter16:20

Time for some more music then. Tell me about your third disc today.

Gary Barlow16:24

My family will absolutely curse at this next song choice only because when you're learning to play an organ, which is two manuals and bass keys on the floor, the song that you first learn is this next track I'm going to play because the bass line literally just descends from C down the scale. So when you're learning your left foot to play musical notes, all you've got to do is move it about three centimeters to the left to be able to play this song. So please enjoy a whiter shade of pale.

Speaker 316:58

What's coming harder?

Speaker 317:03

As a ceiling away

Speaker 317:10

When we call out for love dreams

Speaker 317:16

The wage abroad trade

Speaker 317:20

So in waz and lady

Speaker 317:29

As the miner told his tail

Presenter17:32

Pro Gulharum and a whiter shade of pale. Gary Barlow, take us back then to your first experiences on the stage in front of an audience. As I mentioned, you started off playing working men's clubs in Wales and Cheshire. What sort of audiences did you have there?

Gary Barlow17:49

What an amazing place to work in for me as an 11-year-old. How do you upstage the bingo? How do you make them enjoy that hour between the first game of bingo and the second? That was the challenge. And, you know, as a keyboard player, I think I did about four or five years of sort of live work before I even started to sing. And it was just about building this repertoire of these standards and classics. So I was like getting under the bonnet and learning the inner workings of how these things were being created: the chord runs, the structure, and what goes into making these big, huge, universal hit records.

Presenter18:33

You were so young at that time, though. I mean, you must really have very much been a a boy in a man's world.

Gary Barlow18:39

Yeah, and at fourteen I moved into a cabaret club, which meant I was part of a trio. We were a bass player and a drummer, so I was the piano player. And we'd play behind lots of comedians like Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson and Bob Munkhouse, Ken Dodd, they'd be the act and we'd play them on and off the stage. And yeah, for years these sort of 50-year-old guys were my friends. And so I was, you know, when I joined the band at 19, I was this incredibly old-minded 19-year-old. And coming face to face with these young, cool guys, it was like, oh my goodness, where have I been for the last eight years? It was incredible.

Presenter19:23

Hanging out with Ken Dodd, obviously kept you on your toes, I think.

Gary Barlow19:24

Exactly.

Gary Barlow19:27

He did. He really did. What Ken's set was, it was about nine hours of comedy, but in.

Gary Barlow19:35

In the middle, there, somewhere, he'd sing happiness and he'd say something ridiculous, like, you know, when I tell that joke about standing on my head in a kilt and saying, How's that for a shuttlecock, Mrs.? Then you come in with the intro of the song. So he goes on stage, and you sat there with the music, and you're waiting for this line about a shuttlecock, and an hour goes by, and then another hour goes by, and you're poised, waiting to start the song. And you think, I need a drink. And just at the point where you reach back for your drink, you're going, How's that for standing on a shuttlecock? And you're in and you're playing the song. And then there's another seven hours before the next song. And so he really did have us on our toes.

Presenter20:16

You were obviously very focused and very dedicated. You were playing seven nights and one matinee a week at this point. And I think you said that you sort of sleepwalked through school a little bit. So it sounds like everything outside music seemed unreal to some extent.

Gary Barlow20:31

I was absolutely obsessed by it. I'd get up in the morning, play music. Come on, you've got to go to school. Bang, off to school, home at lunchtime, play music. Sometimes I'd play gigs and there'd be from seven till one in the morning. I'd get home at one in the morning, headphones gone, play for another hour. I just loved it. I loved it. It made me feel fantastic. I loved finding songs which I I couldn't play and working at them until I could play them. I just loved music.

Presenter21:00

And you've described your parents as being incredibly supportive, but do you think that I mean, as a parent yourself, they ever kind of thought, what about Gary gets some other interests outside this music thing, you know, or is he what's he gonna

Gary Barlow21:11

No, never, never, because they saw

Presenter21:12

But never

Gary Barlow21:14

How much I loved it. And of course, I always talked about making it. How am I going to make it? The one thing my dad said from quite early on is that we'd invited some of the neighbours round or something. And I played something, it was quite a difficult piece. And I played it and I got to the end of the da da da da da da. And everyone went, whoa, great, and they all cheered. And I remember very vividly my dad saying, if you can do that, you've got a job for life. And I thought, you know what, even if I don't make it, I think I'll be able to always get a living out of this.

Presenter21:47

Let's have some more music now. Gary Boller, what's your fourth disc going to be today and why?

Gary Barlow21:52

I came to London when I was 16. A guy who'd become my mentor over the past year called Bob Howes had a studio and the available studio time which he used to give me for nothing was of course from one in the morning till eight in the morning. So of course I grabbed it with both hands. I had my student rail card. I'd come down to London and I'd make songs and the engineer would, if I bought him a McDonald's, he'd stay. And one night I remember him saying, Should we listen to something that to just sort of find the bar of where we've got to get to? And I was like, absolutely put it on. Whatever you put on, I know I can match it. And very sadly, this song came on and it was the most incredible piece of audio I'd ever heard. And it was EQ'd and the vocals were incredible. It was like listening to the work of a genius. And I said, who is this? I was feeling ill at this point. Who made that? So it's a guy called Trevor Horne. And of course, that was the start of my obsession with Trevor's work. But I very quickly realized that what I was doing wasn't good enough and I needed to seriously up my game. And I have to thank this song for giving me an enormous kick up the bum and propelling me hopefully into a world which I could get better.

Speaker 423:19

A blue leaf

Speaker 423:32

If you session faithful, you need somebody

Speaker 423:39

And you gotta go!

Presenter24:00

Yes, and owner of a lonely heart.

Gary Barlow24:03

I was going to say yes as well, but not in that context. I was like, yes.

Presenter24:06

Yeah.

Presenter24:08

So Gary Barlow, take that formed in 1990 and you went along to an audition for manager Nigel Martin Smith. What was he looking for?

Gary Barlow24:18

We actually all met at the end of 89, which is why next year is our 30th anniversary. It was the very end of the year, but we all met for the first time. And it wasn't like modern-day auditions where 2,000 people turn up. There was actually six of us. Now, I know you're not as impressed now by me finding my place in that band, but it was weird. He'd kind of hand-picked them from people's resumes. And Mark was a child actor. Howard was a model. Jason was on the Hitman and Her at the time. Robbie was a child actor. He'd kind of... There was a curation. Yeah, he'd worked out this could make a group. He was telling us how big it was going to be. He was saying it in a way that you couldn't help but believe it, and we all believed it.

Presenter25:07

And you were coming to this experience with a very singular and determined vision of your own. I mean, that could be a recipe for friction. You know, you've got two guys in the mix there with a lot of self-belief and a very clear idea of where they want to get to. It might not be the same place necessarily.

Gary Barlow25:24

Well, I met Nigel at a point where I was writing music and seriously making demos. I was spending the money I was earning in gigs to pay to go into studios and make these things. And so when I first gave Nigel a tape,

Gary Barlow25:39

He gave me these eyes like a thousand people give me tapes, you know. Why would I listen to this? And I purposely, I remember him going to hold the tape, and I kept hold of it. And I caught his eye and said, You've got to listen to this. And I think it shocked him because he was like, Who is this guy? But it made him listen to it. And pretty much from the time where I left him at the office and drove home, I got home and there was about six messages on the answerphone of his office saying, Nigel wants to speak to you. So when I called him, he was like, I just want to ask you about this cassette. I've listened to it, but who's written it all? And I said, Well, I have. He said, Well, great. Who's helped you then? Nobody. This is me. Everything you hear is me. The keyboard playing, the drum programming, the engineering, it's all from my bedroom.

Gary Barlow26:33

He was like, we need to speak again. And I think at that point he thought, right, I've got songs here. I'm going to build the group around this guy now.

Presenter26:41

And I mean it worked. By nineteen ninety three you had your first number one single and album PRE and everything changes and by the mid nineties you'd received four Ivor Novello Awards. You were just twenty five and you had fully arrived. How was it?

Gary Barlow26:57

Amazing, of course. Yeah, I was getting to play music live. I was getting to write for records. I had songs of mine in the charts. I got to sing. I got to be in a band with four great people, which we were laughing constantly, enjoying the trappings of being a group that was well known all around the world. We were landing in countries that we couldn't even pronounce, that we never even knew where they were. And we were being met by thousands of girls at the airport. I mean, it was unbelievable. It was everything that I thought it was going to be. I wasn't disappointed in any way, shape, or form. And 95 was a golden year for us. We were big, but once Back for Good came out, it took it to a whole new level. We'd found success in America. We were on radio all round the world. We'd reached the pinnacle of take that first time round.

Presenter27:58

So you weren't one of those stars who makes it and then is horrified by, you know, the pressure and the loss of anonymity and all that. You were just loving it.

Gary Barlow28:08

There was definitely tough bits around it, but we were having the best time. Don't let anyone tell you anything different. We were loving it.

Presenter28:19

And how would you describe the dynamics within the band back then?

Gary Barlow28:23

You know what? I often it comes up a lot this, but it's always from my perspective. I must have had four incredibly patient band members with me because I was definitely someone on a mission. All my training and all my years in clubs, it made for someone who had one direction and everyone else needed to follow. And I often wonder what it was like for everyone else, but they happily stayed in the group with me at that period anyway. I never ever felt like anyone was restricting what I wanted to do. I always felt support and I I to this day

Gary Barlow29:02

Even sometimes, if I don't say it, I feel it every time I see them. I thank them for that.

Presenter29:07

And what was your relationship with Robbie like at that point?

Gary Barlow29:10

He was the first, I think, to go, you know what, I don't want to be, I don't want to do your story anymore, I want to do my own. And although it felt like someone turning their back on us at the time, I understand it now, completely understand it. And so, you know, when we all came back to the table again, one of the first things that we needed to put into place as four adults starting on this second journey of the band.

Presenter29:24

Hmm.

Gary Barlow29:36

Was creating and coming up with this vision together, because that's one thing we hadn't experienced the first time round.

Presenter29:43

In the first incarnation of Take That, you have been very honest about the size of your own ego at the time. And obviously, you're a young man too, you know, and this is twenty five year old. Looking back, can you see where that started to become a bit of a problem for you? Or?

Presenter29:58

Where there was an opportunity that, you know, you could have grown a bit and kind of maybe didn't.

Gary Barlow29:58

And then we

Gary Barlow30:04

I actually believe it was a problem from the start, to be honest. I don't think it became a problem. I was just on a mission. I really wanted to get there regardless to the thoughts and feelings of anyone else. So when I look back at the demise of it,

Gary Barlow30:24

I see it as something that needed to happen. It was a actually a healthy thing that it happened for me in the long term because when I see the lessons and the amount of growing that I did,

Gary Barlow30:40

It wasn't nice and it wasn't easy, but it was so needed. It so needed to happen, and thank goodness it happened because I look at all the good times, I look at the good music, and I look at the amazing life I have now. It's because of that. I can sit and

Gary Barlow31:01

you know, enjoy and almost laugh at the the crazy, stupid things I used to think and feel and the the blame and the

Gary Barlow31:10

You know, the very, very dark times during that period. Thank goodness it happened.

Presenter31:16

It's time for your fifth disc today, Gary Barla. What's it going to be and why have you chosen this one?

Gary Barlow31:21

I love music that helps me, that helps me either celebrate or feel even sadder or feel even happier. And there was a day when I lost my record deal, and it was the dream having a record deal. It was a very big deal for me when that disappeared. And I remember the phone call, I remember putting the phone down and the radio being turned back on. And all of a sudden, music spoke to me. I was listening to the words and music of Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush, and this song just spoke to me. And it said, Don't give up.

Speaker 431:57

Don't give up.

Speaker 431:59

You're so hard.

Speaker 432:06

Do

Speaker 332:06

Uh

Speaker 432:06

Give up, we don't need Uh

Speaker 332:09

You must have anything

Speaker 332:14

Don't

Speaker 432:15

Yeah.

Speaker 332:15

Yeah.

Speaker 432:17

But somewhere there's a place where we belong.

Presenter32:24

Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush don't give up. Gary Barlow, the early two thousands were a very difficult time for you. Your well documented difficulties with Robbie had begun and his star was on the rise, but unexpectedly yours wasn't. Now the smart money had been on you as a successful solo artist. What happened?

Gary Barlow32:44

That's cruel to ask such

Presenter32:46

To ask.

Gary Barlow32:48

What happened? What happened? In a nutshell, I lost my confidence. I had a very clear view of what was good and bad all the way through the nineties. I was often the person who would even tell the the record labels.

Gary Barlow33:09

No, it's not that one, it's that one. That's the one we should go for. I really knew what was right for me. And for the first time, sort of late 90s, 90s, I remember a couple of people getting in my head: oh, that's not very good. I think you could do better.

Gary Barlow33:30

And where in the past I'd have gone? No, it's all right, thanks. I'm all right with that. It started to get in there. And I just lost my confidence. And so I made a record, my solo album, 12 Months and 11 Days. I made a record by committee. The worst thing you can ever do because when everybody's happy, nobody's happy. And it was a very bland version of where I was at at the time. And I think that people can forgive many things, you know, as an artist's behaviour, things you say, things you do in your private life.

Gary Barlow34:14

bland music, you can never be forgiven for that. And, um, yeah, you know, all of a sudden I found myself alone in a room, feeling like there was nobody who cared.

Presenter34:27

And you were in your studio, I think, a lot of the time, sitting at the piano, and in the past, every time you'd sat down at that piano, you'd written something, often a hit, but then that just stopped for a while. How bad was your writer's block?

Gary Barlow34:42

Well, I think coming back to confidence, I never really realized how important as a creative confidence really was. And I always liken it to a football team. You know, when a football team's confident, they win, and then they win, and then they get some more look, so they win again. And it's like that when you're an artist and you sit at that piano and you don't have to give it much thought because you can trust what your heart's telling you and what your head's telling. It's so important. It's so important.

Presenter35:14

Wait.

Gary Barlow35:16

You know, I hate, I particularly hate music reviews because it's such a bad thing for an artist to be told what's right and wrong. I don't think it's necessary. I think the audience make that decision and some people never find it again, sadly. But the climbing back and the building up your creative being again takes years.

Presenter35:42

And alongside all of this, food had become a problem for you as well. Do you think you had an eating disorder?

Gary Barlow35:49

Oh, most definitely. I actually believe I still do, to be honest. But it's a healthy eating disorder, if there is one. Um.

Gary Barlow35:58

You know, eating was something I've realized through my life, is something I've always turned to, whether it's in good times or bad, almost in a similar way that I turn to music. And it's something that's been very present. It's been often the answer to things, and it's also not been the answer. It's not been the right answer. So I have a strange relationship with food, and I have to say, it evolves. I can't tell you today that I'm in the perfect place. I find it evolves.

Presenter36:34

How bad were things back then? Was there a specific low point?

Gary Barlow36:39

Um

Gary Barlow36:40

There was definitely a, again, a light bulb moment for me where I realized this is as bad as I want to let it get. And it involved a trip to the doctor who informed me of my weight and that I was in a bad place. And also, I had young kids at the time, and it felt highly irresponsible to be in the shape I was in. It was definitely something that my health wasn't benefiting from. It just didn't suit me where I was at. I have friends who are large people and they wear it so well and it's almost part of their personality. It never suited me. Again, it crashed the confidence of the person. You know, the music confidence had gone. Now the person confidence has gone, the personal confidence, and it didn't feel right. And so I needed to change that.

Presenter37:32

Let's have some more music, Gary Bull. What's your sixth to day?

Gary Barlow37:36

This song is kind of like a mantra to me, this piece of music. Not only the artist, but the song. It's an incredible piece of musical genius. It's an incredible piece of lyrical genius as well. At a time where it came from nowhere, and people were wondering, what is this? You know, who is this person? And is it American? It just didn't feel British. It felt like an international voice, an artist, and piece of music. And it's the thing that definitely led me to a piano. And I'm happy to say it's from a friend of mine. And it's an incredible song called Your Song.

Speaker 338:20

Uh

Speaker 438:21

And you can tell everybody.

Speaker 438:24

This is your song.

Speaker 438:28

It may be quite simple but

Speaker 438:32

Now that it's done

Speaker 438:35

Um

Speaker 338:35

I hope you don't mind and I hope you don't mind that I put down the word

Speaker 438:42

Um

Speaker 438:44

How wonderful life is while you're in the world

Presenter38:55

Elton John and Your Song, and Gary Barlow, a track by a friend who was there for you. He was one of the people who did stick around when things were difficult.

Gary Barlow39:04

I can probably count them on one hand actually, and he's a big very big finger on there. He he was am amazing to me and actually is to so many people. He's such a people's person. I l I do look up to Elton and and try and emulate what he's given and what he continues to give to the world and music really.

Presenter39:25

Take that reformed in two thousand five. Now first it was as a four piece, and then in twenty ten Robbie Williams was back with the band who reached even greater heights second time around. How would you describe that second chapter? How is it different from the first?

Gary Barlow39:42

It could have been a different band, really. It just felt entirely different. And it felt different because.

Gary Barlow39:50

were four adults making music together, decisions, in charge, an audience which they didn't just come back, they

Gary Barlow40:03

They almost ordered us back. It we felt just so unbelievably loved at that period and wanted and all the things we hadn't felt for so long.

Presenter40:15

And were you also able to really enjoy it much more this time around? It sounds like you were coming back to it with a very different mindset.

Gary Barlow40:23

Yeah,'cause the one main regret for me in the nineties, which I still say all the time, is that I I just spent the whole time worrying.

Gary Barlow40:32

And I wanted to enjoy it. I wanted to be in the band. And so, one of the very first questions was, Guys, are you going to produce it? And I was like, No, I want to be produced. I want to go home with you at the end of the day, not be sat there backing up the files. I want to go to the pub with you a lot at the end of the day. And so I pretty much said, Right, I'm going to enjoy this. And I can honestly tell you, there's not been a concert that I haven't stood on stage and gone, right, I'm going to enjoy this tonight. And I have enjoyed it.

Presenter41:05

Now huge commercial success for you in this time, but also very intense period and within that you suffered two enormous losses. First your dad who passed away in 2009 and then in twenty twelve when you were due to perform at the London Olympics closing ceremony, your daughter Poppy was stillborn and obviously it's an experience that nobody should have to go through. How on earth did you cope with that?

Gary Barlow41:34

Well, for anyone who's been through anything like this, I think it's something you accept that you're gonna be dealing with for the rest of your life, really. And in a strange way, you don't want it to end because it's one of the few things you have to remind you of the person that's that's not there. So in some ways, the pain and the grief becomes brings you closer to them. I can't really explain it. It's it's it's the simplest way of saying how it feels.

Presenter42:10

I know that you've written about Poppy both in, you know, in in with the song Let Me Go and and in your book as well. Why did you choose to do that and was that a difficult decision to take?

Gary Barlow42:22

And of course, a decision that is not just mine, it's something that, because it happened to me and my wife, it's something we talked about endlessly, especially the book side of things. Yeah, it's something that I hadn't talked about, that I hadn't talked about in interviews. In fact, we used to, you know, before interviews, I'd have someone that would say, don't talk about that. It's something I didn't want to talk about. But definitely in the last year, I felt like it's probably time.

Gary Barlow42:56

And quite important, actually. It felt important to me.

Gary Barlow43:01

As a man, actually, as a as a forty-seven-year-old man.

Gary Barlow43:06

to talk about something bad that's happened and how it made me feel. And thank goodness how how it's all changed now. I think people love to read about people's insecurities and how people have dealt with things and especially as men for some reason. I think

Gary Barlow43:23

You know, you can pick up several magazines and know how women deal with things and learn from how other people have experienced them. For some reason, men don't talk about those things. So it I think it felt important for me as a man to talk about that.

Presenter43:40

You and your wife, Joan, have been together for over twenty years. Now, given everything that life has thrown at you, but also everything that's just involved in a pop star's life I mean the ego, the time apart, the whole kit and caboodle, what's your secret?

Gary Barlow43:54

Secret. Um that we love each other. I mean, immensely. Um she's my best friend. She's my yeah, she's everything. And I and I think uh as you wo as you walk through life with your partner,

Presenter44:07

Yeah.

Gary Barlow44:12

And you have these experiences, whether it's having children, having a comeback, having a midlife crisis, you experience them together. And to me, those milestones and things that happen make you stronger. They've never been something that's pushed us apart. It's made it even more important to be there for that person and them be there for you.

Presenter44:36

But also she's not afraid to tell you what she really thinks.

Gary Barlow44:40

I mean, the great thing about my wife is that, for instance, when I get home today and, you know, put my bag down and breathe that sigh relief, whoa, what a day, she'll say something like, Oh, it must be terrible talking about yourself all day. I mean, it's that's the kind of comments I get. And and thank goodness, let's say that. Thank goodness that that's at the end of my day, because I wouldn't have it any other way.

Presenter45:07

Let's have some more music. Gary Buller, what's your seventh disc to do?

Gary Barlow45:11

This takes me back to an extremely crucial time of my my writing evolution. My mentor, Bob Howes, who I mentioned earlier in in the show, I remember going to him with a a problem where

Gary Barlow45:29

None of my songs in the early nineties, the label we're getting excited about. So I was trying to crack this problem of what why what is it that's

Gary Barlow45:40

Why is it so elusive, this thing called a hit? Why am I not getting there? And I went to see Bob and I told him this thing, and he said, I'm going to play you something now, and when it finishes, I want you to tell me what hits you about this piece. And if you don't mind, I think we should play it, and I'll tell you after the track what happened. So let's play now Nimrod.

Presenter47:11

Part of Edward Elgar's Nimrod, performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter47:18

Gary Barlow, a special piece of music for you and taught you a significant lesson.

Gary Barlow47:24

Yeah, so when the piece of music ended, I said.

Gary Barlow47:30

I think the answer you're looking for is it's so simple. And I know there's very intricate parts to it, but if you think about the main theme of what that is, it's so unbelievably simple. And that's what I left with that day. I thought, you know what? I've been putting minor, major, sevenths, augmented sixths, demolished twelfths. I've got to find some simplicity. And the very interesting thing was, through the simplicity, it gave me a whole new landscape to build melody and lyric on top of. And it was honestly the key to the door of me finding this elusive way of making hit records.

Speaker 348:13

Really?

Presenter48:22

You've been in the public eye for over twenty five years. Now during that time, you've very rarely been the subject of serious press criticism. But in twenty fourteen, there were all sorts of negative headlines when the press reported on your legal tax avoidance accounting. How do you look back on that time now?

Gary Barlow48:41

Oh

Gary Barlow48:42

I'm in awful, really, really awful. And it's always important for me to say, I take full responsibility for that. I signed the forms. You know, you try and do these things under the guidance of other people. I don't know a thing about accounts. I never want to. It's of no interest to me. I signed those things. It's my responsibility. So all I could do at that point was just say, hold your hands up, say I'm sorry, and whatever I owe, whatever, just pay it back immediately and get on with your life.

Presenter49:19

In the last few years, you've co-written the scores of three musicals, so Finding Neverland, Calendar Girls and The Band. I think there might be another idea in the pipeline as well. You've also judged on the X Factor and let it shine on T V. You've just published your second autobiography. You're about to go on to you are a serious all-rounder now. Which role gives you the most pleasure out of the many that you play?

Gary Barlow49:46

No, they all sort of serve a different purpose, really. And I mean, the musical theatre thing was completely by accident. I think it's the most collaborative situation I've ever been in. It's literally a hundred people driving a ship, and when everyone's on their game, the feeling of success is incredible. And I loved watching an audience react, and my music was brilliant. And I would love to do more in the future. But they all give you a different sort of thrill, really. I mean, I love, I hope, to always be on a stage as a live artist. I would love to be able to do that forever. And I love being in studio. So they all give me something different.

Presenter50:30

And another role you play, of course, is as a dad to Daniel, Emily and Daisy. What kind of father are you?

Gary Barlow50:37

Terrible one. In their words actually. I don't know anything about their homework. I can't do fractions. I'm always late for pickup. They're amongst the cr major criticisms. Other than that, I'm not too bad.

Presenter50:52

Tell me about your eighth

Gary Barlow50:53

Yeah. Two.

Presenter50:54

A day.

Gary Barlow50:55

This is a delight, especially that we're finishing on this.

Presenter50:59

Well, how do you follow Elgar is the obvious question?

Gary Barlow51:00

I want to say

Gary Barlow51:01

Oh, there's only one way, and this is it. I was in the North West trying to figure out how to make it. I was doing trips to London, to record companies, trying to work out how do I get from the social clubs into the charts.

Gary Barlow51:19

Meanwhile, this young guy that didn't live too far away from where I lived was also doing the clubs.

Gary Barlow51:27

And he was on Look North West, singing.

Gary Barlow51:31

This song that wasn't only good, it was incredible. And I thought that's what I want to do. I love the music as well. This guy's got a great voice. He's from the North West. There is hope.

Gary Barlow51:48

So I'm now going to introduce my final disc, Rick Astley Never Gonna Give You Up.

Speaker 351:56

We're no strangers to love

Speaker 352:00

You know the rules, and so do I I've no commitments while I'm thinking of

Speaker 352:09

You wouldn't get this from any other guy I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling

Speaker 352:18

Gotta make you understand. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you, never gonna make you cry, never gonna say

Presenter52:33

Rick Astley and never gonna give you up. Time to cast you away then to our beautiful island, Gary Barlow. You'll have to catch, harvest, and cook your own food. How do you feel about that?

Gary Barlow52:44

I can't kill animals. I've never been able to do that. So.

Gary Barlow52:49

Oh, fish. Have I got to catch a fish?

Presenter52:51

You don't have to if you don't want to. I mean they'd be coconuts I would imagine.

Gary Barlow52:54

I'll probably kill a fish if I'm honest. If I'm hungry.

Gary Barlow52:58

Only just. It's gonna take a bit of effort.

Presenter53:01

Okay, how are your survival skills other than catching your dinner?

Gary Barlow53:04

I don't think I'd be too bad. I'm not bad in the kitchen. You know the Sunday night conundrum where you look in the fridge and there's there's a few lonely veg and stuff like I can do a good soup with that. I can make it into something Ainsley Harriet style, you know, whip it up and make a show out of it.

Presenter53:20

Yeah.

Gary Barlow53:20

Yeah.

Presenter53:21

Perfect. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to read while you're on the island. You can also have a book of your own. What would you like that to be?

Gary Barlow53:30

There's an amazing book which I often buy people for as Christmas presents actually, and every time I read it I learn something new. It's called Recording the Beatles.

Presenter53:41

You can have a luxury item too. What do you fancy for that?

Gary Barlow53:44

I would take a piano. I I actually still and I'm proud to say this because I still love music enough to without writing, without being paid to perform, I still sit down and often have an hour at a piano. I love it.

Presenter54:00

Finally, if I was to ask you to choose just one of your eight disks to save, which would you like it to be?

Gary Barlow54:07

It's gonna have to be Nimrod.

Gary Barlow54:10

I think it's it's possibly the most beautiful piece of music I've ever heard, and so it's it's that special to me that I wanna I wanna keep that one.

Presenter54:18

Nimrod is all yours. Gary Barlow, thank you very much for sharing your desert island discs with us.

Gary Barlow54:23

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Presenter54:35

I hope you enjoyed my interview with Gary. He mentioned what a great friend Elton John has been to him. Well, way back in 1986, he was cast away by Sir Michael Parkinson.

Speaker 354:45

You're not an actual extrovert, are you? I wasn't then, no. No, but I became an extrovert because in my teenage years I found that I was more or less overweight quite a bit. I had strict upbringing and I was not really allowed to have a drop handled by a bike or a pair of hush puppies. Ah, can you believe it? I missed it. Can you believe me? Now this is the real problem with me youth here because they were allowed to have a drop handled by a bike. My success happened in my 20s and I lived my teenage years through my 20s. I'd do exactly what I wanted to do for the first time in my life. And consequently, if I wanted to wear an outrageous piece of clothing, I did. But again, that wasn't planned. I was just enjoying myself. I was very fortunate because the way I happened...

Presenter55:01

Can you believe now this is the rule?

Speaker 355:21

On a large scale, I went to America and played at the Truevidor Club in 1970 when the Elton John album was released. And it was a revolutionary album as far as that strings had never been used like that on an album before. They'd been used in funky arrangements. They were done by a man called Paul Buckmaster. And it revolutionized string writing and records as far as pop music concerned. And it was a very well-produced album. That was the first album I ever did with Gus Dushan, who I subsequently did 17 albums and have done my recent album with him as well.

Speaker 355:47

And I went to America and played at a small club called the Troubadour Club.

Speaker 355:51

And it was MCA Records who I was recording for hyped, you know, it was full of three hundred people up from the business. But they'd heard the album. Neil Diamond introduced me on the stage, which was a tremendous thing for him to do.

Speaker 356:01

Because he liked the record. And they thought because the Elton John album cover was very dark and doomy that I was going to come out and look like Randy Newman. In fact, I came out with shorts on and flying boots and Mickey Mouse ears and played rock and roll. They went, What is this? And I had a review from Robert Hilburn in the Los Angeles Times and the music critic. It was a full-page review. And it broke me in America when I was in front of 300 people who weren't even paid to come and see me. So it was a kind of fluke. What's been your favorite uniform over the years? I've got them all here actually still. I've never thrown anything away. And I've got all my old stage clothes.

Gary Barlow56:26

I've

Speaker 356:31

I go and look at them and I think, my God. I remember the Muppet doing the Muppet show a few years ago. Luckily I was quite slim then as well because I tend to put on wear. They said we want all your old costumes and I just said I'm not going to wear them again. So I had to go through them all. And some of them were so heavy and I used to wear them for three hours. And there was a one called the Giant Chicken Outfit, which was just like a torso thing with just all chicken feathers. I remember there was an outfit that was all black, but it had black elastic on it.

Presenter56:49

Remember,

Speaker 356:55

And coloured fluorescent balls that shine under white light. And I had a head huge headdress with spikes coming up. So that when I came on, all you could see were these balls on this headdress, because I used to come in black. And I used to sort of be moving, and you see all these coloured balls going like this white. And people think, what is this? A load of old balls, you know.

Speaker 357:15

And the hat. You know, I used to open with a song called Funeral Friend Love Lives Bleeding, which is for quite long.

Speaker 357:20

And by the time I finished, um I had these hats on and also a pair of glasses. There was one electric pair of glasses, the first I think that I can remember anyone using on stage. But they were so heavy that my nose is quite small. So at the end of the song I was singing like this. And my ears were down here. Um quite honestly, I just considered them normal things at the time. But looking back at it, I must have been out of my mind.

Gary Barlow57:43

Uh Uh

Speaker 357:43

Gluff or mask

Gary Barlow57:43

Yeah.

Speaker 357:43

I think that's probably

Presenter57:44

That's it.

Presenter57:45

The one and only Elton John. There's an amazing collection of singer-songwriters in the Desert Island Discs Back Catalogue, Noel Gallagher, Randy Newman, Bruce Springsteen, Annie Lennox and Lily Allen to name but a few.

Presenter57:57

You can find over 2,000 other editions of Desert Island Discs on BBC Sands. Next time, my guest will be the economist, Mariana Matsukato. Do join us.

Speaker 358:11

Right, hey, hello. So before you stop listening. You can't start it with, hey, hello. We're not in California.

Speaker 358:18

Okay, go roll it.

Speaker 358:20

Hello, I'm Rohan Silva and I'm an entrepreneur. And I'm Kamal Ahmed and I'm not. We are launching a new podcast. It is about entrepreneurs and it's for everybody. It's called The Disruptors and it features the stories of founders, people who've started businesses, how they did what they did and all the challenges and ups and downs they went through to get there. Plenty of dark moments and plenty of inspirational stories told by the people who experienced them.

Speaker 358:50

Subscribe to The Disruptors on Busey Sounds.