Professor Phil Scraton

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This is the

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B B C

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Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Welcome to Desert Island Discs, where every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, the book and the luxury item that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away on a desert island.

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For Wrights' reasons, the music on these podcast versions is shorter than in the original broadcast. You can find over two thousand more editions to listen to and download on the Desert Island Disc's website.

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My castaway this week is the criminologist, academic, and author Professor Phil Scraton.

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Deaths in custody, prison conditions, and the treatment of children in the penal system are some of the subjects he's turned his attentions to, but at the heart of much of his life and work has been the Hillsborough disaster.

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For the families of the ninety six football fans who died, justice has been a long time coming, and my guests' relentless and meticulous quest for the truth has been fundamental to our understanding of what really went wrong on that spring day back in nineteen eighty nine.

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The rigour of his research and his academic credentials are faultless, but it's easy to believe that for him, Hillsborough is personal. Born on the Whittle in Merseyside, as a little tot, he would sit on his dad's knee at matches, growing up to become a lifelong Liverpool supporter. He says, I don't care about external validation. The only validation I would ever want is from the people to whom I owe an obligation and a responsibility. And if I don't think I owe them that obligation, I shouldn't take the work on in the first place. And so welcome, Professor Phil Scrapon. That sense of obligation, then, that you talked about there, of feeling that you shouldn't or that you simply can't walk away, that's a thread that seems to run through your life's work. Why do you feel it?

Professor Phil Scraton2:11

It came very early on. It came when I was in school and

Professor Phil Scraton2:15

I saw unfairness, injustice. One example stands out.

Professor Phil Scraton2:21

It was a day when all the girls were removed from assembly and we all had to sit down cross-legged on the floor, the boys. And up on the stage, there was the head teacher, the deputy headteacher, and the parish priest. And a wee boy was brought in, undernourished, very poor. And he was walked between two very tall teachers, male teachers, up onto the stage. And he was told that he'd been caught stealing from the local shop, or we were told, and that he was to be punished. And they proceeded to cane him on his backside, cane him on both hands, and he walked out between the two teachers. And I sat there trembling, holding on to myself. And as he walked past, there were tears just running down his cheeks. And I knew that was wrong. Immediately I knew that was authority, completely wrong. And all of this because he'd stolen what? He'd stolen biscuits from a local shop and we knew why. He was one of seven. He had a single parent. They were poor. He needed food. And the juxtaposition of that injustice really stuck with me.

Presenter3:28

You are um Professor Emeritus at the School of Law at Queen's University in Belfast now. What are the skills of a very rigorous, thorough, and highly regarded researcher? When you're talking to students, what do you say?

Professor Phil Scraton3:40

Well, there are two things that I think I say to my students who are researching. One is that you cannot do this kind of research without an inquiring mind. You never take anything for granted. You never take any official explanation for granted. Even if it's correct, you still unpack it and you understand it. And the second most important issue is you're in it for the long haul. You can't say, I'm doing this research for three years because I'm doing a PhD. Now I'm finished. Yes, you are finished. But what are your obligations to the people that you've been working with if the case itself hasn't finished? No one would have anticipated Hillsborough is going to last for three decades.

Presenter4:16

So, Professor Phil Scrayton, let's take a little look at your list of music and let's go to the first disc. Tell me about this. Why have you chosen this and what is it?

Professor Phil Scraton4:23

This is Christy Moore and he's singing on the bridge and for two reasons. First of all, it speaks to the whole issue of political imprisonment, women political prisoners in Ireland. But secondly, from my point of view, it speaks to all prisoners. The fact that prisons are out of sight, out of mind, when in actual fact they are our prisons, our responsibility, paid for by our taxes. We have a duty to know what is actually happening behind those walls.

Speaker 34:57

I covered up my ears and I held my tongue.

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The rain poured down relentlessly

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Upon the package line

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And the empty words fell from my lips Your troubles are not mine

Presenter5:29

That was Christy Moore and on the bridge. So, Phil Scrayton, it is worth reminding ourselves that you, of course, led the research team of the Independent Hillsborough panel, which reported in 2012. And as a result of your findings, a second inquest was then held. In April last year, it concluded that those 96 people who had died had been unlawfully killed, and that fans' behaviour had not contributed to the disaster in any way. Now, those were already the facts, of course, as you understood them. But on that single day last year,

Presenter5:58

I wonder what was your immediate reaction to hearing those official findings?

Professor Phil Scraton6:04

I was in the court and I was sitting in the second row as the four-person. She sat down, she was allowed to sit down. And when we arrived at the unlawfully killed verdict, there was an immediate, immediate response of vindication amongst the families. I was sitting right amongst them. But still, there was an issue because the next question was: did the fans in any way contribute to that unlawful killing?

Professor Phil Scraton6:35

And when she said no,

Professor Phil Scraton6:37

I broke down.

Professor Phil Scraton6:40

I uh

Professor Phil Scraton6:42

I put my hand hands in to my head and my head down, and I'll never forget that moment of families comforting me.

Professor Phil Scraton6:53

When I always saw it as my role to comfort them. And

Professor Phil Scraton6:59

To be honest, in 2000 I felt I'd let the families down, I'd written two reports, I'd written the first edition of Hills with the Truth, and nothing came of it, and they hadn't been vindicated in in the public eye.

Professor Phil Scraton7:13

The other thing to say is that we talk about the Hillsborough 96. It's not just 96. I've watched so many of those families die en route.

Presenter7:17

Yeah.

Professor Phil Scraton7:22

You know, from a direct consequence of their suffering or even from their injuries. So we can't say it was 96 who died in Hillsbury, it's many hundreds.

Presenter7:30

And so with regard to Hillsborough now then, criminal proceedings have begun against six people, including four former serving policemen. And I mean I should say as a result of those criminal proceedings we need to be mindful about what we can say to each other here today. But on publication of the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel in twenty twelve, David Cameron, then Prime Minister, stood up within an hour.

Professor Phil Scraton7:45

Of course.

Presenter7:54

And he apologised for what and I'm quoting directly here he apologised for the failure of the state to protect people and the indefensible wait to get to the truth. How fundamentally damaged do you think the fabric of British society was by what happened at Hillsborough?

Professor Phil Scraton8:12

Well, I think that the fabric was damaged specifically in relation to investigations and inquiries and the trust in what we considered to be British justice. And we saw an immediate questioning of that. But it was still because of the nature of Hillsborough, the doubt was, oh, the fans must have contributed, and so on. It was only when we got the final vindication, and that was the word that was used most often in the press and on the media, was this idea of vindication that people really began to question. And you can see the distinction now in terms of Grenfell and the Grenfell fire. And you can see how people, ordinary people, who've lost everything, will no longer just actually sit back and be passive observers of their own injustice, of their own suffering.

Presenter8:59

When it comes to Grenfell as well, Phil Scrayton, I do want to ask you about that, but for now, for reasons of time, of course, we need to hear your lovely list of music. So let's go to the second choice. Just tell me what we're going to hear now and why you've chosen that.

Professor Phil Scraton9:10

This is Bruce Springsteen, and he's singing Chimes of Freedom, which is a Bob Dylan song. It was recorded just two weeks before the great concert in East Berlin, which I think informed so many people, young people, in terms of what was happening behind the wall, before the wall came down.

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Really the city is melting furnace.

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Unexpectedly we watch

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With faces hidden in while the walls were tightening.

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As he echo of the wedding bells before the blue warning rain.

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Dissolved into water fills of lightning.

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Yeah, I told you.

Presenter10:04

That was Bruce Springsteen and Chimes of Freedom recorded live in Stockholm in July of 1988. So you were born then, Professor Phil Scraton, in Wallasey on the Wirral at the very end of the 40s. What's your earliest

Professor Phil Scraton10:17

its memory of life at home. Yeah.

Professor Phil Scraton10:18

The first really sharp memory, there were two of them, and they both involve illness, sadly. One was my, I must have only been three, and my auntie died in the house of an illness. It was only four years ago, five years ago, I discovered that she was actually my grandmother, and that had been kept from me. So that was a very early memory of witnessing her die. And that was so sharp in my mind. And so soon after that, my father being diagnosed with lung cancer and having a lung removed, he lived until I was 19 with a lot of difficulty. But it was that sadness, really, I suppose, and the realization from an early, early age that, you know, death can just be literally round the corner.

Presenter11:07

Tell me about the time you stole two pounds.

Professor Phil Scraton11:10

Yeah, I mean it was completely out of character. I was 10 years old and I went into the shop and I knew everybody in there. They all knew me. They trusted me. The woman behind the counter who I knew well, she went into the back to get me something and I saw two pound notes as they were in those days underneath a vase at the back. And I still to this day don't know why. I took them. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was a mortal sin as I would have defined it then. And I put them in my pocket, went home. Didn't know what to do with them because we had no money. So to have two pounds would have been seen. Well, it was obvious, you know, if you'd have been suddenly spending it. So I hid it under a pot in the backyard. Did you have an idea of what you would use it for? No, I didn't. I had no idea why I'd done it either. And there it was under these pots in the back. And I used to go and look at it and just leave it there. And then my mum saw me one day and...

Professor Phil Scraton12:04

I mean, you know, there was never any violence towards me in our family. I never got smacked or anything like that. She just took me to the parish priest. And it was just this overwhelming sense of shame, the shame that I brought on the family and on her. And the parish priest, who was the same one who'd stood on the stage when the young boy had been caned, he just gave me forgiveness and I went back to school the next day and it was never mentioned again. I mean, it was a remarkable sequence of events, you know. I'd been confirmed and done my first Holy Communion, all of that. And at a very young age, I was one of the key altar boys. And then I went into a seminary, you know, so it didn't seem to disturb that flow of what was my Catholicism and my belief at the time. But I realized that this was crazy. I had no understanding of why I'd done it. And one thing that is important is I think it is always vital for people to realize that not every action is caused or created by purposeful activity. It can just come spontaneously and you don't know why.

Presenter13:08

Let's have some more music, Professor Filsgreight, and tell me about this. It's your third.

Professor Phil Scraton13:13

This is Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit. One of the issues that was clear in my family growing up was the kind of implicit racism that existed all around us. There was a family of dockers and seamen on the male side. And I think it picked away at my consciousness. And I heard Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit, and it's a perfect example of what was kept from me, but at the same time, the vital understanding of what was really going on around us.

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Pastoral scene.

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Of the gallant south

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The bulging eyes

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And the twisted mouth.

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Scent of Magnolia

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Sweet and fresh.

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Then the sudden smell

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Of burning flesh.

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Here's a fruit

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For the crows to plap

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For the rain together.

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Farther into sight

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Father Sam

Presenter14:52

That was Billy Holiday and uh Strange Fruit. Uh Phil Scritton, you mentioned the seminary. When and why did you decide that you wanted to become a priest?

Professor Phil Scraton15:01

Well, I was brought up a Catholic. My father was a Protestant. He converted, but I don't think he ever practised. And I served on the altar, used to do 7-30 Mass before I went to school almost every day. And it was one of those things where the parish priest sees that you are both devoted and devout. And so, in that situation, he took me to a lot of exhibitions. They were called vocations exhibitions. And would I join the White Fathers? Would I become a Jesuit? Whatever. And eventually, I said I wanted to be like him, a secular priest, an ordinary priest in an ordinary parish. So at 12 years old, I went into the seminary with my big trunk arriving by road, and me arriving with my suitcase and walking up into this 17th century seminary called Ushaw College, where I was for the majority of the year. An incredibly harsh regime where you were in church five times a day, where you didn't speak, called the magnum silentium. You didn't speak between the hours of 7:30 and 9 o'clock the next morning, where you were up very early to do meditation. And of course, as my family will tell you, the magnum salentium might have worked then, but it's not worked ever since. And so I will not be silent.

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Have you ma

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This is a

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formative time in a young boy's life.

Professor Phil Scraton16:21

Young boys like that.

Presenter16:22

What impression w do you think, looking back at it now, knowing all you know about yourself?

Professor Phil Scraton16:26

Self.

Presenter16:27

What difference did that period of time make to you?

Professor Phil Scraton16:30

It made me a good sports person because I played a lot of sport, but it but apart from that, I became almost introverted. I'd I'd been one of the only boys from my school to get the eleven plus.

Presenter16:41

One of only three, I suggest, yeah.

Professor Phil Scraton16:42

Yeah. And so going into the seminary sort of knocked my confidence completely. Latin, Greek, Greek, New Testament, all of that. It was like a different land. And after about four years, they wanted to keep me down a year because they thought I wasn't progressing academically. And I realise now when I look back at it that it was stultifying. And I decided when I was 16 to leave. It was the time of the debates around abortion. It was the time of the debates that were really significant. And one of the formative issues was that somebody gave me the Don Camillo books, which is the communist mayor versus the Catholic priest in Italy. And it had exactly the opposite effect that they expected. I sided with the communist mayor and left the seminary. And soon after, I lost my religion, to quote R.E.M. And what about the girls? Well, you might not have noticed it, Kirsty, but when I look at you across this table, I actually look at your mouth.

Presenter17:42

Ah, I did notice. You don't look you don't look at the market.

Professor Phil Scraton17:43

Don't

Professor Phil Scraton17:45

I don't look I don't look women in the eye. We're always told in the seminary that you don't look women in the eye. And I've seen others who leave the seminary and they are absolutely withered by it. For me, it was a great liberation.

Presenter18:00

And I will not be enslaving you with my lascivious ways by looking you back in the eye. Tell me what we're going to uh we're gonna we're gonna hear now then.

Professor Phil Scraton18:07

She said, looking him in the eye.

Presenter18:08

Tell me about your next track.

Professor Phil Scraton18:10

This is Something Inside So Strong by Labby Sifri, and I think this song just goes right to the heart of fighting back against injustice, but also saying we can do it. We can do it together. We're strong together.

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Cause there's something inside so strong, so strong.

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I know that I can make it

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Oh, you're doing me wrong, so wrong.

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If I let my drive goes gone

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What the

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Something inside is so strong

Speaker 318:50

Oh, something inside so strong.

Presenter18:56

That was Labby Sifre and something inside so strong. Professor Phil Scrayton, your father had been on the Queen Mary when he was in fine rude health, and then subsequently, when his health took a turn for the worse, he worked from home as a bookie, actually, before betting shops were in the house. Oh, he was a little legally. Yeah, and then he managed the local Labour Social Club. And what was his expectation for his son? What did he want for you?

Professor Phil Scraton19:11

He did, yeah, legally.

Professor Phil Scraton19:18

Oh, you wanted me to get a trade. I remember. I'd left the seminary and I came out and I went to a college of further education and they said, oh, no, you're not academic. You know, goodbye. And I left and as I got home, I told my dad and he said, there you are, I told you. What you want is a trade. That was the ambition of working class people, was get a trade. In fact, immediately after that event happened, I went back to the college thanks to a tutor who really seemed to understand me. And I did very well, but I couldn't go straight to university because mum and dad were both ill. So I took a job.

Presenter19:54

I will stick my neck out here and say I reckon that you are probably the only Professor Emeritus at the School of Law at Queen's University Belfast who was once a bus conductor. And I think it is fair to say that when I look at your life, you know, repeatedly there is this question of class coming up. And you've said that when you went to university

Presenter20:12

You said it silenced me. I felt like an outsider in my own city. Why was that?

Professor Phil Scraton20:17

That's absolutely right.

Presenter20:18

Why was that?

Professor Phil Scraton20:20

Well, I think there were twofold. I mean, one, the bus conductor story really sums it up. You know, when mum and dad were ill and I needed to do something to bring some money in, and I went and worked in an office, and that was just dreadful. So I went on the buses. My dad had had a time when he'd been a bus driver for a while. So I went and worked on the buses. It was some of the happiest days of my life, actually. We had great fun. But the contrast between the camaraderie and understanding you felt in your own community and then walking up Brownlow Hill to Liverpool University in those days and being passed by people who'd been at public school driving sports cars. But the thing that was great for me, you know, was that I just felt that there was an opportunity to spend time really understanding the context in which I'd lived and would live. I just thought that was such a privilege. And of course, in those days, we had full grants, so it was made easy for working class people to do it at that level. But I felt such a contrast with those around me who all used these big words, you know, and stuff that I didn't understand. And then I realised that that is in fact a mirage.

Presenter21:29

More to come, Phil Sprayton, but for now, the music. Tell me about this next disc.

Professor Phil Scraton21:33

This is a song by a very good friend of mine and he lives in the north of Ireland and this song is the Leaving Song. This tells the story really of my mother's family way back when they left Ireland at the time of the people call it the Great Famine, I would call it the Great Starvation and they were heading for America but they ended up in Liverpool and Birkenhead. So the Leaving Song is about that wrench from your home, from your identity.

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We are on the road together.

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Traveler

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Live

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There are your ways again.

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Really go

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How much

Presenter22:34

That was Barry Kerr and the leaving song, Professor Phil Scritton. The problem of institutional racism within the police was given clear voice, of course, in the McPherson inquiry following the murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence. You tackled the problem in your research and also the numbers of deaths in police custody. We have heard the Director of Public Prosecutions only recently talking about the concerns that she has of the levels of incarceration of black people. Surely it is a significant step forward that the people at the top of our justice system now are acknowledging that there is a problem.

Professor Phil Scraton23:09

Well the problem Kirsty for me is that I've heard it all before. You know we had the Scarman report in 1981. We've had a succession of revelations and the Institute of Racial Relations has monitored this year on year since I was in my late teens. Now that to me indicates that there is always a willingness to recognize the problem, but much less of a willingness to deal with it. If you were to ask me, you know, do I feel that I've failed in any way? It would be yes. I don't feel that the work that we have done has moved that debate on sufficiently into action.

Presenter23:49

What action would you want to see if I was to ask you to write just a little checklist of two or three things that would make a fundamental and significant difference in a reasonable amount of time? What would it be?

Professor Phil Scraton23:58

I'd start with poverty and marginalisation within communities. I'd start with reconsidering the whole process of education in terms of how we invest in those communities. If you look at the most poor communities, they're massively out of step with middle-class environments, the kind of environment that my children grew up in.

Presenter24:18

Professor Phil Scraton, let's have some more of your music this morning. Then we're going to listen to your sixth. Tell me why you've chosen this.

Professor Phil Scraton24:24

Deaths in custody have been really close to my concerns ever since the death of Jimmy Kelly in Liverpool and the death of Steve Biko dying in custody and the cover-up of that was a profound concern and really hit home. And I really think that the bravery of his family to refuse to take part in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, while his death was unresolved, they didn't want amnesty. What they wanted was truth. And they didn't think they could get it through truth and reconciliation in a commission. So it's the backdrop, if you like, to so much of the work I've done on deaths in custody. And also this particular version by Joan Byez connects it to a really wonderful peace campaigner in the United States.

Speaker 325:17

Temper seventy seven.

Speaker 325:22

For Delizabeth when they're fine.

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Yeah.

Speaker 325:29

Business as usual

Speaker 325:32

In police room six one ah

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Oh Bo

Speaker 325:41

Be go, because be go.

Speaker 325:49

I'll be gold.

Speaker 325:52

Because

Presenter25:56

That was Joan Baez and Biko. Phil Scrighton, we've spoken about the many, many years, the many hundreds of hours of your time, the emotion that has been tied up in everything that you have done for Hillsborough, for the survivors, for the family, for the community. You mentioned the Grenfell Tower disaster earlier when we were talking about it, and looking to the future, the specific changes that need to be made in how we implement inquiries, how they're conducted in tragedies where people have lost their lives and where things surely could have been done better.

Presenter26:30

What would your recommendations be as to how we progress with with Grenfell?

Professor Phil Scraton26:34

Well, the first thing is that it has to have the full confidence of all of the survivors and all of the bereaved.

Presenter26:41

That's a very complex thing to require.

Professor Phil Scraton26:43

I think it's the most important. I don't think that we can have any faith in an inquiry that doesn't carry with it the weight of those who've borne the loss. And I think Grenfell has brought that home very, very clearly. I'm not going to criticise the judge himself. I don't know him. But what I do know is that the person who heads it up and the people who are around that person and the support that they get from government has to be fully independent. It's the most important thing about the Hillsborough Independent Panel was the word independent. And although we were serviced by government departments, the panel was in the driving seat.

Presenter27:21

Of course, to run a big and complex inquiry, we do require people who have great, many years often, experience in the judiciary, in law, who themselves inevitably are classed as part of the establishment. How do you counter against that? Are you saying it's by having a group of people who have equal status?

Professor Phil Scraton27:40

Yes, that's exactly right, Kirsty. I mean, if you look at the Hillsborough Independent panel, it was a brilliant model. I mean, you had an independent chair who was a bishop, who didn't have specific knowledge of the issues. But what we also had was a lawyer in the team, Raju Bhatt, who had done brilliant work previously on deaths in controversial circumstances. We had somebody from the media, we had a wonderful doctor, medical person, who really understood the ins and outs of those issues. We had a former senior police officer. We had Katie Jones, the late wonderful Katie Jones. She was somebody who brought that research. She worked on the Jimmy McGovern Hillsborough Drama Doc. My own expertise, my own contribution to that. And I was the primary author of the report eventually. So what you're looking at is a complex mix of knowledge and understanding. At the end of it all, the families would not have accepted it if it hadn't had that mix. You know, I work in a school of law. I know how the law works. I also respect many of our senior judges. But what actually really gives them necessarily any other skill than the law to actually direct an inquiry, which has to be wide-ranging and complex? Full screen. Let's hear it.

Professor Phil Scraton28:58

Okay.

Professor Phil Scraton28:59

This is the song that really goes to the heart of Liverpool Football Club and to the heart of the families. Every single memorial service since 1989, it has been the way that memorial service ended. It is a Mergicide hymn, I believe. It's Gerry and the Pacemakers, You'll Never Walk Alone.

Speaker 329:30

With hope.

Speaker 329:33

In your

Speaker 329:35

I feel never

Presenter30:07

That was Jerry and the Pacemakers, and You'll Never Walk Alone. Phil Scrayton, you have spent all of your professional life really giving voice to the voiceless, to those people, whether they be in prison or those people who are no longer with us. Um has it taken a personal toll on you?

Professor Phil Scraton30:22

Well, I don't think I give voice to the voiceless. I think I echo the voices that I hear.

Speaker 330:28

Right.

Professor Phil Scraton30:29

Yes, this hasn't all been without challenge. I mean, I had death threats to my home phone number, which was X Directory, and have had a whole series of checks put on me, or attempted checks put on me, by my institutions, not the one I'm working with now, Queen's, but previously. One famous memo was perhaps I should think less about being involved in Hillsborough and more in getting on with the rest of my academic work. But, you know, I get by with help from my friends, to quote a well-known song, and also I get by really with the love and support of those who are close to me.

Presenter31:10

Phil Scrayton, we're almost reaching your last choice, but before we do, I'm conscious that I don't want to open a complete can of worms, but are both of your boys Liverpool FC supporters?

Professor Phil Scraton31:19

They are both Liverpool FCC. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, or that's what I think as well, Kirsty.

Presenter31:20

Thank goodness for that.

Presenter31:25

Um tell me then about your final choice.

Professor Phil Scraton31:26

My final choice is love and affection. My partner, Dina, her favourite of all time is Joan Armitrading. We had the honour of meeting Joan when she was given a doctorate in music in Glasgow and we were fortunate to get in the ballot and get our two tickets, although Dina didn't know that's where we were going. And she played a whole set. So I think for my family, for my partner, but also for myself, I think love and affection is the message.

Speaker 331:57

Sawaka

Speaker 332:01

Strengthen out of love ooo!

Speaker 332:07

I mean they are home.

Speaker 332:11

But I'm suggesting it's all dying.

Speaker 332:18

With friends I still feel so insecure

Speaker 332:23

Little darling, I believe you can help me at light.

Speaker 332:28

Just take my hand and leave me where you will.

Speaker 332:33

No conversation, no way good night

Speaker 332:37

Lord, just make love with affection.

Presenter32:38

Just make love

Presenter32:43

That was Joan Armourtrading and Love and Affection. Uh so Phil, I'm going to give you the books, of course. You get uh the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. Uh what else would you like to take?

Professor Phil Scraton32:52

I'd love to take The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. Robert Tressel was buried in Walton Cemetery in Liverpool. A brilliant book, uh formative to my own analysis, my own thinking.

Presenter32:55

Right.

Presenter33:04

That's yours, then. I allow you a luxury. What will it be?

Professor Phil Scraton33:08

Yeah, it'll have to be musical. I've um struggled a long time to be the guitar player that both my sons are. I'll take uh one of my guitars.

Presenter33:18

Okay. It's yours. And if the the waves were to threaten to wash away these disks, Phil, which one would you save?

Professor Phil Scraton33:25

Oh, there's no question. It has to be you never walk alone. The idea of self for me is not that I don't have one, but it is that I'm connected. And I think that we never walk alone.

Presenter33:38

It's yours then. Professor Phil Scrayton, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Professor Phil Scraton33:43

Thank you so much.

Presenter34:05

I hope you enjoyed this edition of Desert Island Discs. You'll find more interviews with artists, musicians, scientists, sports stars, comedians and more at bbc.co.uk/slash desert island discs.

Speaker 234:32

This is the BBC.

Speaker 334:34

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