Lord Richards of Herstmonceux

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Lord Richards of Hurstmonceau.

Presenter0:39

He was a soldier for forty two years, rising through the ranks to the very top, chief of the defence staff, the principal military adviser to government. With a reputation for being shrewd, swashbuckling, and outspoken, he's now retired from one of the most successful military careers of modern times, so illustrious he's been knighted twice. The campaigns he led in East Timor, Sierra Leone, and Afghanistan are well documented, and most recently his Council against Military Intervention in both Libya and Syria helped guide the Government through the most complex of international strategic defence decision making.

Presenter1:14

He's possibly less well known for his private passions tennis, skiing, sailing and his action man credentials must surely be further boosted by the fact that he once spent an evening as Joan Collins's bodyguard. He's also partial to a spot of karaoke. Born in Egypt into a military family, he at least grew up with some understanding of the very particular disadvantages that come with life in the forces. Just as well, in thirty five years of marriage he and his wife have moved home twenty nine times. He says I see myself as a moral soldier. I do not associate the military with wars and bloodshed in the narrow sense. I associate the military with doing good, bringing down tyrants, with releasing people's ambitions for their children. So, David Richards, let's talk about that for just a moment then, being a moral soldier, the notion of that. How easy is it, I wonder, to hang on to that belief with everything that you've seen, and I'm talking there principally about the horrors of war.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux2:11

Well, actually I think often it's easier than you might think as you're in a country that's um bedevilled by awful people and atrocities and something stirs in me and I think most decent people and it adds an extra imperative to simply following your orders and allows you to use your initiative to do a bit more than perhaps people might have expected.

Presenter2:35

You've described yourself as a seat of the pants, soldier. Tell me more about that.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux2:39

I see you've done your research well. Well, I think when you get to a place like Sierra Leone's Timor with lots of careful preparation and clear orders, inevitably the situation is going to be different. And you've got to be able to follow your instinct as opposed to just what you've been told to do on top of experience and analysis.

Presenter3:05

And you've you've said that you say to the soldiers under your command, clout, never dribble. Is it analogous with the that American shock and awe tactics? You go in hard. Is that what you mean?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux3:14

It's very similar. It doesn't mean that every time you go somewhere to try to help a country or put tyrants down or whatever one's trying to do, that one has to go in at that scale. But it's relative to the challenge. I'm afraid too often I've been sent somewhere with inadequate resources, too few troops, not enough equipment. If a politician, a leader, a statesman, as I hope politicians would view themselves, sends the British Armed Forces off to foreign lands, they have to have the tools to do the job that they've been asked to do. So I would say to soldiers and commanders below me, if you're going to do something within your resources, make sure you do it properly.

Presenter3:59

So, David, tell me then about your first piece of music this morning. What is it, and why have you chosen it?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux4:03

Well, it's um an Elvis Presley number. It's now or never. My brother, Nick, who was also in the army, was passionate about Elvis Presley, and so the first music I can really remember reverberating round our house was Elvis Presley. And occasionally soldiers do karaoke, and occasionally generals have been asked to perform. Probably not that many, but I have been, and this is the one I tend to sing.

Speaker 44:32

It's love or never

Speaker 44:36

Come hold me tight.

Speaker 44:40

Kiss me, my darling

Speaker 44:44

Be mine tonight

Speaker 44:48

Tomorrow will be too late.

Speaker 44:55

It's not a name.

Speaker 44:59

My love North Wales

Speaker 45:03

What a

Presenter5:04

Elvis Presley, and it's now or never. So David, in your most recent professional role then as Chief of the Defence Staff, you started doing that in twenty ten, I think. You stepped down at the end of twenty thirteen.

Presenter5:16

You described your role in talking to the government, advising the government on all military and defence matters, that you were speaking truth under fire. Now, at a time of such s well, cuts everywhere, but especially cuts in defence spending, that must have been a relatively tense relationship.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux5:31

It's truth unto power.

Presenter5:34

Oh, but I read you said Truth.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux5:35

Oh no, I think that was a miss. No, no, I hadn't. I'm sorry. That some journalists had obviously thought that.

Presenter5:39

Cleverly.

Presenter5:41

Alright, I see.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux5:42

I see. I felt like I was under fire sometimes. So that I must remember that. It's yours, I'll give you that. Yeah, thank you, Kirsty.

Presenter5:45

Something like that.

Presenter5:48

It's yours, I'll give you that.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux5:51

Yeah, there were occasions when I had to give advice to some people whom I have to say I respect very much and like, but I knew they did not want. And you go into a number ten down his street or wherever, everyone is very kind and hospitable, but suddenly something happens and you're you're there and it's business. And I did have to dig deep and give some difficult advice.

Presenter6:17

Mr President, you counselled against intervention in both Libya and Syria. You said that we need to understand the political objective before we take any military action. Given that the evidence irrefutable evidence mounts at the civilians suffering, particularly in Syria, how comfortable are you with that clinical tactical position still?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux6:39

Well, to be fair, what I said and what I keep saying to people is if you're going to intervene, do it properly. If you only do it half-heartedly or with insufficient resources, for example, giving some help to the Syrian rebels, but not the help that will make a decisive difference, you will actually aggravate things and you'll certainly aggravate the humanitarian situation. We are doing quite a lot.

Presenter7:05

Are we doing enough?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux7:06

No. And there's a huge risk of contagion throughout the region. Wonderful countries like Jordan and Lebanon and now Iraq are suffering because the West as a whole have not put in the scale of assistance that those countries require, let alone into Syria itself. So it's a nuanced opposition. I actually have huge sympathy for the Syrian opposition groups and most of all for the people of Syria. But actually if you only do a little, then it's going to aggravate their plight. And I felt morally there is therefore a case for saying you better not do it at all. Just get this blooming thing over with.

Presenter7:44

And you think then that when it comes to spending, and so much in the end comes down to spending, it should be beyond the borders of Syria to support the floods of refugees that are going into other countries.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux7:54

Yes, I think Lebanon and Jordan very difficult in the case of Iraq because they've got their own internal conflicts. I think they need more help still, both in terms of humanitarian support, but political, financial and potentially military support.

Presenter8:09

It's time for your second piece of music, uh then, David. Tell me about this. What are we going to hear?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux8:13

Well, it's Swan Lake and everyone will recognize it. I've always had a huge interest, almost passion, for Russia. I studied at university. I think we lost a huge opportunity in the 90s to bring Russia back into the community of nations properly. And it sort of captures what I feel about Russia. Depths, but also great joy.

Presenter9:39

That was part of Act Two from Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, played by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted there by Andrei Preven. Let's look back a little bit then, David. You were born in Egypt in nineteen fifty two. Your father was John, your mother Pamela, and it was a military family. Your father was a captain in the Royal Artillery, is that right?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux9:56

Is that right?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux9:57

Yes, he was based in the Canal Zone in Egypt, but we moved back to England about eighteen months later and subsequently went to Cyprus. But I I think my abiding memory of life in the army as a child was one of opportunity and fun.

Presenter10:13

You were one of four children and your family returned to Britain, sort of full time, as it were, by the when you were the age of nine. You went to school. How did you get on at school? Good good school?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux10:22

Well, I'd been in a succession of army schools. We came from Cyprus and my father was posted to HQ London District and we lived in a little house, literally virtually a two up, two down in Whetstone near Totteridge. And I went to my first prep school really. He he my mother took education very seriously and they didn't get any help with it at that time, but they paid for me to go to this little day's prep school. I was obviously a bit of a rogue and I remember I got into trouble a bit. I wasn't particularly academic, but I loved history even then, geography and things like that. I'm not so good at science.

Presenter11:00

And what was the trouble? What did you do?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux11:01

Well, I I must have had some sort of latent leadership skills. I had a little gang as I tended to not a gang that went around beating people up, but people who were uh vulnerable to my influence, should we say. And I think uh the teachers saw that as opposition and tended to uh want to bring me into line and I didn't necessarily uh want to be brought into line so I ended up being put in detention and things like that rather a lot.

Presenter11:29

You went then from spending a fair bit of time in detention to being head boy. How did you make the leap?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux11:33

Well, that was later. I mean, I went to Eastbourne College and I remember my housemaster, like delightful man called Keith Norman Smith, telling me after about two years, if you don't sort yourself out, we're probably going to have to ask you to leave. So I decided to sort myself out and I became the head boy and I'm one of those rather sad people that look back on my school career as a period which I loved.

Presenter11:55

And your father, did you see him often in uniform? How important was his army military life to you?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux12:00

I was always aware, clearly, that he was in the army. He he naturally wore uniform a lot. His influence on me definitely was profound, really. And you know, what he considered was right or wrong and an absolute determination to be apolitical. He never voted until he left the army because he felt that the principle was very important. All those things I sort of hoovered up. And I also watched the way my mother was very devoted to the soldiers' wives and doing her bit to help them too.

Presenter12:31

Let's have some more music, then, David Richards. Tell me what we're going to hear now. It's your third.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux12:35

Well, talking of school and Eastbourne College, and I really did enjoy it. Uh I'm now a governor actually, a not very good one. But uh there was always an inter-house uh singing competition and um I loved South Pacific. It was the first L P my mother ever bought and I particularly like there's nothing like a dame. I sang the very deep bit, which I suspect we're gonna hear because although I haven't got a very good voice, I have a very deep voice in the inter-house competition.

Speaker 313:05

Nothing else is built the same.

Speaker 313:08

Nothing in the world.

Speaker 313:12

As a soft and wavy frame, like the silhouette of a day.

Speaker 413:19

Peris absolutely nothing like the frame of a day.

Presenter13:38

That was There's Nothing Like the Dame from the movie soundtrack of Roger and Hammerstein's South Pacific, and you did almost sing along with that very deep part there that we just came out of. And you were saying during that as well, David, that there have been many times when that struck a chord, when you've been out in the field talking about the the soft and wavy frame of a dame. There are times when you've missed a dame.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux13:57

I well, you weren't meant to say that. But I mean, inevitably, you know, you're you've got everything you want in some well found location from which you foray out, and obviously that's often a bit tough. But you haven't got what most men's, young men's minds tend to turn to.

Presenter14:13

So when you were a young man then, you decided that you wanted to be a green beret to get into the rufty tufty stuff. Apart from the family tradition of life in the military, what was it that appealed to you personally about that life?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux14:24

Well, I didn't join the army to spend 42 years in it. I knew it was a good life, but I just wanted to go in for a while. And of course, if you're going to join the army, to me, you had to join a tough bit. You know, that's my image of a soldier. And as I knew it would be probably most exciting, most demanding, most challenging. So I wanted to be a gunner,'cause that's my father's regiment, my brother and cousin. And so the right solution for me was to join the commando artillery as part of three commando brigade. And I went to do the commando course down in Plymouth and then at Limpston in Devon.

Presenter14:56

And then they sent you off at age just nineteen, I understand, to Singapore. You did what's called a jungle warfare course. I can't imagine that was uh a walk in the park. What are the worst moments that you can remember as a as a nineteen year old soldier?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux15:02

Course.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux15:08

Well, eating some horrible things, creepy, crawly things and you managed all that, did you that? Well, you have to, or else you starve. And also, of course, if you don't, they think you're a bit of a wimp. I think this being constantly wet is horrible. Your your clothes literally rot off you after about three weeks. Your skin must be in a terrible state. Yes, it's always wet and damp and it's very humid. But actually, as I look back on it now, there are also some great high spots because you go through this environment and you can still function and your troops can still function and you feel rather good that you're in such a you know an august group that can s rise above that adversity and still do what's required.

Presenter15:12

And you managed all that, did you that?

Presenter15:15

But also

Presenter15:20

Yeah.

Presenter15:26

Your skin must be in a terrible

Presenter15:48

You went on to be a you were a student at Cardiff University in the early nineteen seventies. How did you look there? I mean, did the cur did you have a short back inside when everybody else was a hairy student?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux15:56

Yes.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux15:57

There were a lot of hair in those days. I my concession was sideboards and relatively long hair, but I don't think you'd count it as long hair. But I felt it was long, as did my father, but I remember my mother saying, Really, you should be grateful that it's not long.

Presenter16:06

But I

Presenter16:13

And it was at university you met your wife to be?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux16:15

Yes, and I ran the riding club and she was a keen horsewoman and she didn't actually really want to have much to do with me. She if she was sitting here, she'd deny that. But it took me about three years. So um and I went abroad, back to Singapore and to Northern Ireland on my first tour there. But yes, she was always there as someone who really stood up to me and had not uh fallen for my dubious charms. So I think there's a hint for young ladies who've got their eye on a chap. She played it absolutely right.

Presenter16:45

Well let's have some more music, Sir David. Tell me about this, your fourth.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux16:48

Well, I've mentioned Singapore. I went back there in 1975 and lived with the Gordon Highlanders in a lovely colonial mess. And I grew to love pipe music. I didn't much like the dancing they made me do at about five o'clock every Thursday morning, I think. I soon bailed out of that. But ever since then, Scotland and Scottish regiments and pipe music in particular has been a part of my military career and I have grown to love it in this number in particular.

Presenter18:20

That was the Royal Dragoon Guards playing part of Highland Cathedral. So, General Sir David Richards, you progressed through the military in a steady and, has to be said, pretty rapid way. You served in the Far East and in Germany. You did several tours in Northern Ireland. You also spent time back in the UK. By 1998, you were Chief Joint Force Operations, which meant that you were the UK's commander for short-notice troubleshooting expeditions. That's very highly skilled and a very specific role. What was it about that that you enjoyed the most?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux18:51

Well, essentially it was a new new role and I had a remit to go anywhere in the world where there was trouble that might influence or impact on the United Kingdom, find out what was happening and make recommendations on how we might help best resolve it. And if we did get involved, I would normally be involved in it.

Presenter19:13

And that leads into I want to ask you about the situation in Sierra Leone then.

Presenter19:18

Mr. President. You were there in the year two thousand. You had, as I understand it, specific instructions, and that was to evacuate British nationals. Those were your instructions and no more. But you were concerned on the ground there that if you restricted yourself to just that, then the country itself was at risk of collapse. There was something called the Revolutionary United Front there, and you felt that they would go on and massacre very many people. Can you encapsulate for me and I know it was a highly complex set of circumstances what it was you decided to do?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux19:53

Well, I had been there in 1999 and back in twice in January and February, so I knew the country and that's important. It wasn't a sort of maverick act. I knew the country better than certainly people in London, and I'd seen some horrible sights the year before, and I wasn't going to be involved in allowing it to happen again. And there was a real risk that the RUF, who had brutalized the country twice previously, that that would be repeated. So my instinct and sense of moral obligation to the people there was such that I decided to not disobey my orders, but to adapt them. And so we fought back with a polyglot lot of Sierra Leoneans, the Revolutionary United Front, to buy time for the UN to do what they were there to do.

Presenter20:45

But there were no orders to do that. However high up the person is in the military, surely in the end what they must do is is follow the orders they're given.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux20:53

I'm not advocating it as a route for most people to do most of the time, but I clearly couldn't have been that ambitious because I think if I had been I would have obeyed my orders. And we it came o we pulled it off.

Presenter21:08

Well, I suppose it's lucky you did, isn't it? I mean, what would have been the implications if you hadn't? Well, I was telling you, yeah.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux21:12

Well, I was told I just told that I uh my I'd be chopped off at the knees, um you're pushing your luck.

Presenter21:20

What did you say to your men? I'm I'm presuming some of them must have have questioned.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux21:24

I had a wonderful staff. I never used British forces offensively, but of course I could put them in a difficult position, which meant they had to defend themselves robustly. And to a person, man and woman, they were with me, even though they knew it strictly wasn't what I was being told to do.

Presenter21:24

Uh

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux21:44

And in a way we were in our own bubble in Sierra Leone and I cocooned myself intellectually from the pressure and if I was sacked I was sacked, but I'd go down knowing I'd done the right thing.

Presenter21:54

Mr President, not only were you not sacked, but such was the success of the operation you received the DSO when you returned from duty. Some people have said that it was the success of a sort of a morally motivated force that you used to go in there that helped Tony Blair to think that, yes, Britain could be the moral conscience of the world and that it could get involved in places where hitherto it had not been involved successfully. Do you think you were responsible for his state of mind on that?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux22:22

I've heard that, but the thing is, I knew or I sensed that Tony Blair, Robin Cook would have approved what I was doing. They gave me sufficient assets and I built up this what we called an unholy alliance of local militias to actually do the fighting. I had enough resources, I analyzed the situation, I used some slightly imaginatively, put it that way.

Presenter22:44

Tell me then why you've chosen this next piece of the microphone.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux22:46

Well, Sierra Leone is hugely important to me. Of all the operations I've been involved in, it's the one I feel best about. And therefore, I wanted a song that reminds me of Sierra Leone. In 1999 and again in 2000, I went to the Blind School on the edge of Freetown and got to know and love the children there. And this song, written by the wonderfully brave British High Commissioner called Peter Penfold, who is a patron of the school, reminds me of a country I have I love really.

Speaker 423:18

Black and white, rich and poor, young and old, big and small, deaf and dumb, blind and lame, Muslim and Christian, we're all the same.

Speaker 423:35

Gary's from home.

Speaker 423:39

Tierra Dion

Speaker 423:43

Are you all

Speaker 423:48

Why this country does

Presenter23:51

That was Peter Penfold and the Milton Margai School for the Blind Choir in Freetown singing My West African Home. So it's very clear then, David Richards, that you have witnessed some truly awful things. You said that the signature, if you will, of this force in Sierra Leone was to chop people's arms off or to chop their hands off to ensure that they couldn't vote. Uh

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux24:13

Yeah, if you see it, you feel the revulsion and anger that any decent person would. The great thing about being in the armed forces is I've had an opportunity to do something about it. You know, I don't wring my hands and just get up in Parliament and denounce people. I've had this wonderful privilege, if you get it right, to go and sort it out. So Sierra Leone today is, I think, a contented country, all sorts of difficulties still. And I've seen in Afghanistan that the vast majority of Afghans now have hope.

Presenter24:47

It's interesting that you mention Afghanistan because in in February of this year, President Karzai suggested well, more than suggested actually. He said that NATO troops had made his country worse. Now you were commando of NATO forces there in two thousand five, two thousand six. What was your immediate reaction when you heard those words?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux25:05

Well, I know President Karzai well. I spent many, many hours, days with him, and I count him as a friend. It's all very well people denouncing what he's said. I think you've got to bear in mind that he's looking at some sort of accommodation with the Taliban or elements of the Taliban and trying to bring the country together in his last few months in power. He can't be re-elected. So there's some politics in this. And I think obviously in a narrow sense, I was disappointed to hear that. I mean, I know he sometimes does come out with some things I'd rather he didn't say. But actually, he's done a hell of a lot for the country. And it's a very difficult, in a difficult situation. And of course, I agree with him in a way. We haven't done everything we set out to do. And we look as if we might not follow up in the way we've promised. And that's very disappointing.

Presenter25:55

The impact on the Afghan population, of course, is well documented and significant, but also there have been hundreds of serving British soldiers who have lost their lives. When they hear President Karzai say something like that, the hurt must surely run very deep.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux26:10

It does. And for us, those of us in the armed forces who have fought there at whatever level, we know, rather like Sierra Leone, that on the ground, the lot of the average Afghan is vastly better. You know, they can have some optimism about the fact their children will become uh doctors and dentists or whatever it is and all those things we have helped bring to the country.

Presenter26:28

Paul is

Presenter26:31

Well, you say there are children there, but probably not their daughters, to be fair. I mean, given now that the Taliban is involved in in negotiations, openly involved in negotiations, it is likely that those small incremental changes that the British forces and other NATO forces made to the lot of women in Afghanistan is going to take a giant step back.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux26:50

That is one of the risks that, as our nation and others hesitate about sustaining their assistance to Afghanistan, that will have to be on the conscience of those that decide not to do what I feel we have committed our country and all the other contributing nations to ISAF. And if we don't just continue to do what we've said, which is get out of the combat role, but continue to sustain and support the Afghan armed forces and their economy, then be it on our conscience. Because I, as the father of two daughters, feel this particularly strongly. My wife runs with others a charity which is dedicated to bringing education to children. All that could be put at risk. And for what? Because we've tired of it. Okay, I know it's been a long haul. We're changing the strategy. I just would ask people not to give up on it altogether.

Presenter27:33

All that

Presenter27:45

Let's have some music. Tell me about this, it's your sixth.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux27:48

Well, it's a poignant moment to think of a number of friends and comrades, of many of whom obviously I didn't know, uh, who didn't return from operations, and it's uh a song from Les Miseral.

Speaker 428:03

There's a grief that can't be spoken

Speaker 428:09

As the pain goes on and on

Speaker 428:14

Empty chairs at empty tables.

Speaker 428:18

Now my friends are dead.

Speaker 428:21

And gone here they talked of revolution.

Speaker 428:30

Here it was they lit the flame, Here they sang about tomorrow.

Speaker 428:39

And tomorrow never came.

Presenter28:43

That was empty chairs and empty tables sung by Michael Ball from the original London production of the musical Les Maisoura.

Presenter28:50

So David Richards, tell me about being Joan Collins's bodyguard.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux28:54

Gosh. Oh well that's back in Berlin in in 1988. Jane Collins came to Berlin to present some awards in the Berlin Film Festival. And to cut a long story short,'cause I this could go on for hours, um I volunteered along with a few others to be her bodyguard and I spent best part of twenty four hours in her company um guarding her body.

Presenter29:21

Do go on.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux29:22

Well, she had to. She had to. Well, that's what it means to be a little bit more.

Presenter29:26

It's the first time I've seen mischief dance through your eyes in this entire encounter.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux29:29

Screw your eyes at the sentire and county. Well, I was very well behaved and she was charming, but she did need bodyguards and there weren't any in Berlin, and so me and my six fellows provided it.

Presenter29:41

Tell me more about this extraordinary level of support that you've been given by your wife. Twenty nine moves of home, as we know. Do you think your extraordinary high flying career would have been in any way possible without her? I imagine not.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux29:54

I I think I'd have succeeded anyway. No, um no, seriously. Um knowing that she was there Caroline was there looking after the children and would support me come what may has been a huge uh reassurance through a long career.

Presenter30:11

And packing cases really are the least of it. I wonder how your daughters have dealt with knowing, certainly as they progressed through school, knowing that their father was in danger so often?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux30:21

Um well, I think it did worry them more than I realized. Um I remember when I was in Sierra Leone, my older daughter Joanna was allowed to watch the BBC nine o'clock news. And not only did she see films of some of the atrocities and thought I was something, you know, I was at risk myself, she also was intelligent and old enough to realize that I was under a lot of political pressure, and I think that worried her too. Pippa was deemed too young, but they both went through it when I was in Afghanistan and lived it with me.

Presenter30:54

Let's have some music then.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux30:56

Well, I talking about travelling a lot. I have got on many, many planes to go off to various places, and this wonderful song by John Denver seems to capture all that that's involved in.

Speaker 431:09

But the dawn is breaking, it's early morn The taxi's waiting, he's blown his horn Already I'm so lonesome I could die So kiss me and smile for me Tell me that you wait for me Hold me like you never let me go

Speaker 431:37

I'm leaving on a jet plane Don't know when I'll be back again

Presenter31:47

That was John Denver and Leaving on a Jet Plane and memories for you, Sir David Richards, of all the times that you've had to leave your family at home. We talked very briefly there during the music about something that I hope you will now talk to me in a little more detail about. You mentioned to me just a second ago, you said, well, when I was in Afghanistan, and as people will know from listening to the programme, of course, you were head of NATO forces there for a couple of years. You were very high on the Taliban hit list.

Presenter32:12

When you go about your business, when you're trying to get from one place to another, practically, how does that manifest itself? What are you worried about? What's your protection?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux32:20

Well, I had a great team and they did a lot of detailed planning of moves and things like that. I should say, first of all, you don't think it's going to happen to you because you probably wouldn't get in a vehicle or in a plane if you really thought that was a risk. Usually the scenario that uh people would play through was in a vehicle and the risk of suicide bombers as you come into a government building for example, they'd always have a a roadblock which delayed you and and on more than one occasion Afghan provincial governors had been blown up by people draping themselves against the the vehicle and then triggering the bomb. And so you you were aware that these risks were out there, but compared with the risks that my soldiers were facing, you know, it was pretty inconsequential and you just managed them.

Speaker 432:43

Yeah.

Presenter33:07

Now I have um I'm about to cast you away. I have no doubt at all that you'll be able to survive. You will, won't you, on an island on your own.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux33:13

I did my various survival courses and I'm confident that I can survive very happily in very austere circumstances.

Presenter33:22

Tell me about your final piece of music this morning, Maddie.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux33:24

Well, in Berlin, and you've mentioned Joan Collins, one of the great things that I discovered there was the love for opera. And here is a piece from Lar Bohem.

Speaker 433:36

Also have a fun tour.

Speaker 433:44

It has irrigum fusil bummer.

Speaker 434:02

It's my birthday.

Speaker 434:16

Here be the Holy Church, that's the worst.

Speaker 434:37

Ah

Presenter34:42

O Suavi van Culla, from Puccini's Labo M., sung there by Maria Callas and Giuseppe Di Stefano, playing where the orchestra of La Scala Milan, conducted by Antoni Novotto. So it's time for me to give you the books then, David. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take another book along, to make it three.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux34:58

What will it be? Well, the collected works of Patrick O'Brien is really what I'd like. Yes. That would be marvellous.

Presenter35:05

Right, they can keep you company. And a luxury.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux35:08

It's a difficult one. I'd like a machete. Now, you see, definition of luxury. I don't think it.

Presenter35:13

It's quite

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux35:13

In the spirit of the luxury? Perhaps not, in which case I'd love some sailcloth. Yes, you can have that. Okay, let's have the sailcloth. I'm telling you, you're making us.

Presenter35:18

Yes, you can have that. Okay, let's have the sail clock. I'm assuming you're making a suit out of that and not a sail for a boat. I think I might do both.

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux35:23

I think I might do both.

Presenter35:25

And if you just had to save one disk from the eight, which one would you save?

Lord Richards of Herstmonceux35:29

Oh gosh. I think it's got to be my West African home, because it'll bring back memories, but it's also so optimistic, and I think that's what will keep me going.

Presenter35:39

Lord Richards of Hersmonsu, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Presenter36:25

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter36:28

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk slash Radio4