Doreen Lawrence

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:33

My castaway this week is Doreen Lawrence. Because of her campaigning over nearly twenty years, public attitudes have shifted, laws have changed, and policing methods have been overhauled.

Presenter0:45

The life she thought was hers ended when her son was murdered by a group of young white men on a street in south east London in the spring of nineteen ninety three. She says

Presenter0:54

Since my son Stephen was killed with such arrogance and contempt, I've had a different life, one that I can hardly recognize as my own. And so, Doreen Lawrence, this has included advising at the highest level at the Home Office, at the Police. You're also on the Council of the Human Rights Organisation Liberty, and back in 2003 you were awarded Nobi for services to community relations.

Presenter1:18

Listening to all of that, how does that sit with you?

Doreen Lawrence1:21

As a person? Um, is that you're talking about somebody else? Because part of that I don't recognize me. Um, the campaign in years definitely was me,'cause, you know, my son

Doreen Lawrence1:32

was special and I think what happened to him, I just wanted everybody to know and sort of learn about him. But all the other things, the OBE, I'd I would swap all of that, just have my son back.

Presenter1:45

And this sense that you are a public person, that I'm sure I'm sure people must sort of give you a nod in the streets, or greet you in the shops, or come up to you at events, and and they feel like they know you. What what's that? Like

Doreen Lawrence1:58

Sometimes I find it quite worrying because you don't know who's coming up to you. You know, I can understand that people want to show their I don't know their support for me, but sometimes that can be quite overwhelming. People just say, I just want to give you a hug. I think the hugging and and stuff in the street with strangers is really not me. In January.

Presenter2:16

Of this year you saw justice at least partially done with the conviction of Gary Dobson and David Norris found guilty of your son's murder.

Presenter2:25

Can I ask you about that day? How did that day feel for you?

Doreen Lawrence2:28

We thought the jury are going to be at it a little bit longer than they were. And so when we were called down to say the jury is back.

Doreen Lawrence2:36

My heart was really beating very fast,'cause I think during the trial I couldn't I couldn't read the jury, I couldn't tell. And so my heart was in my mouth when we went back downstairs.

Doreen Lawrence2:47

And when they said guilty, I suppose I had to hold myself in from screaming out, I had to think'cause I had to press on one side'cause I never thought I'd hear um those words. I never thought I'd hear that someone's gonna be found guilty for Stephen's death. Never thought I'd hear it.

Presenter3:02

You'd waited then almost twenty years to hear that, but also you had attended, I understand, every day of that six week trial. You must have felt yourself as though you were al almost running on empty, that there was almost nothing left.

Doreen Lawrence3:14

Yes, it was as it was it was a very difficult time. I my son was there most of the time with me, so it was quite good having him sitting next to me and and then my daughter came one day

Doreen Lawrence3:25

and she had difficulty walking through the door of the court, and I thought she was following me in, and when I looked round, she wasn't there.

Doreen Lawrence3:32

and she stood I just couldn't come in and she was crying.

Doreen Lawrence3:36

It was a a dreadful time. And I think having the the press as well,'cause they're sort of watching you every minute to see what what your reaction is going to be. So it's like being in a a goldfish bowl constantly. It was a terrible, terrible time.

Presenter3:50

And so on that evening, when you were allowed some privacy, when you went home and and shut the door,

Presenter3:55

Locked the press out and the rest of the world.

Presenter3:58

What was that evening like for you?

Doreen Lawrence3:59

Yeah.

Presenter4:00

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence4:00

Um, I think some of my friends said that I shouldn't be on my own, so

Doreen Lawrence4:05

I had some friends around, and after they'd gone, it's like you don't know what to do with yourself after that because you don't know whether just you're going to start crying or jump in. You really don't know. So I think I probably had a cup of tea and silently went to bed. And I didn't sleep, I must admit, I just didn't sleep because too many things was going around in my head, too many things.

Presenter4:25

The next morning when you got up, did it feel like a

Doreen Lawrence4:28

Slightly better day.

Doreen Lawrence4:30

The reality h hadn't hit me. I think even now I still feel that the reality hasn't really hit me because I think for so long, you know, you're waited for that moment.

Doreen Lawrence4:41

I think we had to go back into court the following day. The judge did the sentencing, we had to go back and listen and wait.

Doreen Lawrence4:48

And and I I presume I was still running uh um on adrenaline then because I don't think you're able to

Doreen Lawrence4:56

Bring yourself down.

Doreen Lawrence4:58

I think now I'm slowly beginning to do that and trying to have some sort of a life.

Presenter5:05

Let's have some music, Dorian Lawrence. The first track that you've chosen today, can you tell me a bit about it? Why have you chosen it?

Doreen Lawrence5:10

Um, Fallen Soldiers by Beverly Knight. She's been very supportive of us and a family and when we had the the first big um memorial service over at St Martin Cinder Field, she performed that and I think that's probably the first time I heard it sung.

Doreen Lawrence5:26

I think you just conjure up how when Stephen eventually fell

Doreen Lawrence5:31

um after running um all those yards after he was attacked, especially within the lyrics about being a fallen soldier. So that's quite a good one for me.

Speaker 35:42

I will remember You are my fallen soldier One of our many borders I would have loved to know you

Speaker 36:00

And still you're my fallen soldier Oh, you are my fallen soldier Yes, you are one of

Presenter6:12

That was Beverly Knight and Fallen Soldier, and you say that that was sung by Beverly Knight at the memorial to your son, Stephen. So, Doreen Lawrence, over the past 19 years, then we've seen the Metropolitan Police found to be institutionally racist. The race relations laws have all been tightened up, police responses to what are characterized as racially motivated crimes have been overhauled. Do you?

Presenter6:34

Allow yourself, even for just a moment, a little bit of pride in those achievements.

Doreen Lawrence6:40

Um yes, yes.

Doreen Lawrence6:43

I'm proud to say that I've been somebody to help to make some of those changes in the way in which around the training, around the first aid and all that was introduced since the inquiry.

Presenter6:57

Your focus now is in scrutinising the original police inquiry into your son's murder. It's your contention that it wasn't simply botched, but that corruption lay behind some of the mistakes that were made. You've asked Theresa May to hold an inquiry into the investigation, and in fact she has just announced that she's going to do just that.

Presenter7:18

Will you finally get answers to the questions you've been asking all these years?

Doreen Lawrence7:22

What Theresa May have done is ask the QC, who is in charge of the trial, to do a review. But what I'd like is an inquiry looking into the first investigation, what the police officers have done or what they didn't do. Because I think there's loads of that information still left uncovered. And I think the only way we're going to get to the bottom of it is to have a public inquiry that would give us the answers that we've been looking for over the past nearly 20 years. So I'm hoping that the review just opens up the door into having an inquiry. So it's just for me, it is a stepping stone into having an inquiry.

Presenter7:59

Um After the McPherson inquiry, you were given a personal apology from the police that did that? Mean asking?

Doreen Lawrence8:06

No, it didn't,'cause I think we shouldn't have to wait so long for that. How many years did you wait? It it was, what, five years. And had we not struggled, we'd never have got to where we got to at that time, even for the inquiry to have happened.

Presenter8:10

How many how many

Presenter8:22

Um you've written a book about your struggle, about your experiences, and it's uh it's called And Still I Rise. That comes from the title of a poem by Maya Angelou, um the opening stanza of which reads You may

Presenter8:34

Write me down in history with your bitter twisted lies You may trod me in the very dirt, but still like dust I rise. And I wonder where you find the strength to rise again and again over these past almost twenty years.

Doreen Lawrence8:48

Um, it was Stephen, I think, because he deserved um a life which was taken from him.

Doreen Lawrence8:54

and had a strong sense of truth and justice.

Doreen Lawrence8:59

And I felt that that was being denied us right from the start.

Doreen Lawrence9:04

And I think at the time I didn't look at it as me campaigning, I looked at it as me trying to get answers. Is this truth and justice? I think for me that's quite embedded in my in my character, that I felt that I needed to continue um just to get to the end and to see what really happened to Stephen on the night.

Doreen Lawrence9:25

Let's have some more music, Doreen. What what's your second track today? Um my second one is um Desmond Decker and it's the Israelites. When I was at school, all our friends when this came out, we used to have such fun dancing around in the playground thing. And I've always, always loved this music. I just think it just means quite a lot for me.

Speaker 49:42

Get up in the morning slaving for breasts

Speaker 49:47

So that every mount can be fed

Speaker 49:55

Meet Israelis.

Speaker 39:57

Nice.

Speaker 410:01

Get up in the mornings lay pain for breadcrum So that every mount can be fair

Speaker 310:11

Yeah.

Speaker 410:11

Yeah.

Speaker 310:12

Yeah.

Speaker 410:12

Uh

Speaker 310:12

There

Presenter10:13

That was Desmond Decker and Israelite. So you were born Doreen and lived for your early years in Jamaica. What are your fondest memories of the early years?

Presenter10:23

Um

Doreen Lawrence10:24

Yeah.

Presenter10:24

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence10:24

With my grandmother. It was just a

Doreen Lawrence10:27

Carefree life I had with her. And I think I really treasured those moments. And'cause out of my siblings, I'm the only one that really knew my grandmother, so I think that I felt quite special.

Doreen Lawrence10:37

She used to go to the markets'cause um she grew um oranges and things, so she's got to the market to sell that. And I remember once she took me with her and that was a very special time for me growing up'cause

Doreen Lawrence10:49

I suppose not growing up knowing my mother as a young child, and sh as far as I'm concerned, she was my mother.

Doreen Lawrence10:55

Um, and when she died, you know, is that my world had fallen apart when she died?

Presenter10:59

And she'd had a lot of kids herself. How many kids did she have? Well, grandma had nine children. Right. So, you were brought up, as we know, then, by your grandmother. Where was your mother? What had happened?

Doreen Lawrence11:09

Yeah.

Presenter11:09

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence11:09

Um she had travelled to this country. Um she married and I was just left with my grandmother.

Presenter11:14

Right. And so you didn't uh see your mother until you were around about nine and yeah, when I was nine, yeah, when I came here. Right. And did you ha was she writing to you? Did you ever have a chance to maybe even speak to her on the phone or?

Doreen Lawrence11:19

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence11:21

Right.

Doreen Lawrence11:26

You don't have phones these days. We we're talking about the late fifties, sixties, you wouldn't have had phones. Um, they used some letters that was written and I always used to talk about her and my grandmother used to talk about her.

Presenter11:38

Right, but you didn't feel a gap because you were getting all this love from your grandparents.

Doreen Lawrence11:41

Well, no, I I miss I didn't miss her at all'cause I think my grandmother filled that gap, so I never missed her.

Presenter11:47

A motorbike

Doreen Lawrence11:47

At your father.

Doreen Lawrence11:49

Um, I only I I only remember seeing my father once. Um, I must have been quite young, that is, I don't remember remembering that much about him until I came here and when we made up again.

Doreen Lawrence11:59

So you were a mother

Presenter12:00

But Three children, um Georgina and Stuart, are your other children, and uh you're now a a grandmother as well. How many grandkids do you have?

Doreen Lawrence12:07

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence12:09

Um I have three grandchildren, um Mia, who is seven, she'll be eight this year, and then two grandsons, um Ethan and Theo.

Presenter12:18

What sort of grandma are you?

Doreen Lawrence12:20

I would like to think I'm a really loving grandma'cause with Mia we have such good fun together. Um and I think sometimes Georgina thinks I spoil her too much, but but that's what grandmothers are for, is to spoil their grandchildren. And we went away um a couple of weekends ago with two of my grandchildren and went up to York and it was really good to be away away from London, away from all the hustle and bustle and just be out in the country. And so I do value those times because they're so few and far between.

Presenter12:49

And what about time on your own? Is it is it possible to spend time on your own and and to spend that

Presenter12:56

With any sense of optimism and happiness, or is time on your own?

Doreen Lawrence12:59

Time on my own is difficult. I think on your own is quite difficult. So to find myself I live in a house on my own now, so um nobody wants to be on their own. You you want to have a companion that you can share things with, and I think that's a bit I really miss not having.

Presenter13:14

Okay. We'll have some more music then, Dorian.

Doreen Lawrence13:16

We're on your third track of the day.

Doreen Lawrence13:18

Tell me about this happy little tune. And this is Cliff Richard going on a summer holiday. I remember my aunt, Aunt Lillian, taking me to the cinema to see it. And we did a lot of things together when I first came here. And so she used to take me to the cinema. And I just really remember watching this film and just seeing everybody dancing around. I think it was a happy time.

Speaker 313:37

We're all going on a summer holiday No more working for a week or two Fun and laughter on a summer holiday No more worries for me or you

Speaker 313:52

Or a week or two?

Speaker 313:55

We're going where the sun shines brightly We're going where the sea is blue We've seen it in the movies

Presenter14:06

Now let's

Speaker 314:07

Uh

Presenter14:07

See?

Speaker 314:07

Yeah.

Presenter14:08

It's true. That was Cliff Richard in the Shadows and Summer Holiday. We know you, Doreen Lawrence, as somebody who has a.

Presenter14:15

A backbone of steel. And I'm wondering as a little girl, did you did you have the same qualities? Were you very determined?

Presenter14:22

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence14:22

Yes, I think my aunts see me as being very stubborn in not doing

Presenter14:22

I jumped.

Doreen Lawrence14:27

What they wanted me to do. I think one of my aunts used to say to me that the sun's very hot and I'll be out there and they'll say to me to get out of the sun and I just won't move and so they had to come and slap me on my legs for me to get out'cause I just I was very determined. But I had my own thoughts of what I thought I wanted to do. The little girl that arrived then.

Presenter14:50

At the airport, um, you were wearing a little yellow dress, I think, a little cotton sundress, and you had a little cardboard suitcase with a couple of things in it.

Doreen Lawrence14:56

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence14:57

Yeah.

Presenter15:00

When you saw your mother, did did you even know it was your mother?

Doreen Lawrence15:02

No, no.

Doreen Lawrence15:04

My aunt, um, who had stayed within Jamaica after my grandmother died, would have taken photos of me and sent over, so I know,'cause I I remember going to the studio to have photos taken, so my mother would know what I looked like. So I don't I don't remember ever seeing any photos of her at all.

Presenter15:19

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence15:19

Yeah.

Presenter15:19

And so when you arrived in England?

Doreen Lawrence15:22

The whole thing must have been a Considerable comp

Presenter15:23

Boop.

Doreen Lawrence15:24

I think the shock for me was how the houses were, um, all close together and joint,'cause in in in the Caribbean you don't have houses like that. So that was quite a shock. And and I think the amount of cars that I saw as well,'cause even though they had cars but not as many

Doreen Lawrence15:42

As you would have here. And did you settle in with your mother? Did you start to to sort of develop a bond? Um, I don't think we ever had that bond. I don't think we ever had that. No.

Doreen Lawrence15:52

Even though

Doreen Lawrence15:54

In the early days I think she tried to make

Doreen Lawrence15:57

That, but I don't think we ever did, and I don't think she knew how to at that time either.

Presenter16:03

So when you came to be a mother yourself, then, what what

Presenter16:06

You know, that sort of pretty profound experience with your own mother. Did it help to mold your attitudes to

Doreen Lawrence16:13

What sort of mother are you wanted to be? Oh, definitely, definitely, because I think for my children, I think it's you know, when you always want to share a joke.

Doreen Lawrence16:20

I could never share a joke with my mother. I just think that was just so sad. And so with my children growing up, I always say to them, I don't care what it is, you know, I'm always here. Talk to me. I want to hear your stories. And we did. We shared jokes. We shared everything.

Presenter16:35

Let's have some more music, Doreen. We're on

Doreen Lawrence16:37

On your fourth track of the day. Why have you chosen this? Something again as I was growing up, at eleven o'clock every night I used to have this little old-fashioned radio I used to listen to and um it's a pirate station in Radio Carolina used to come on. They used to play um post this sledge and wrap me new warm and turn to love and that was quite a soothing thing to fall asleep to and so I used to listen to this every night.

Speaker 317:10

Yes, my love, you own so bad.

Speaker 317:16

Come on, Phil

Speaker 317:19

With your turbo and let me grab you in my arms.

Presenter17:30

That was Percy Sledge and warm and tender love and and memories there, Doreen Lawrence, of you and your little radio in the bedroom and falling asleep at night to that track. Um you were a smart little girl. You were good at maths and you were good at English.

Presenter17:44

Did your parents take your education seriously? Did they want you to do well?

Doreen Lawrence17:47

In school? Yeah, my mother always wanted me to do well in schools, especially for like Caribbean families. I think education is very important. As I was growing up, because being the eldest, I had responsibility. So by the time I get to sit down to do my homework at night, it was very late. So I don't think I did as well as I would like to. And I've always wanted to go off to university. That was something that was always I wanted to do. So after I had my children and the opportunity came, I sort of grabbed it.

Presenter18:17

So you have your degree now, you went on indeed to do a postgraduate

Doreen Lawrence18:20

Yeah, I did postgraduate therapeutic counselling, um, after.

Presenter18:23

And did that help? I mean, you you don't practise as a therapist, but have you found actually the teaching useful? Is it something you've used for yourself?

Doreen Lawrence18:29

Yes, I did,'cause it helped me to understand the grieving process that and was happening. I used to have these anxiety feelings. It helped me to understand what the what I was going through.

Doreen Lawrence18:41

When

Presenter18:41

You were, um when you'd left school in your your first job, you you were working at the the Nat West Bank and that was when you were twenty, I think, when you met Neville, or were you late

Doreen Lawrence18:51

I was I was a bit young, w I got married when I was twenty. And your parents

Presenter18:53

Parents were not happy.

Doreen Lawrence18:54

B.

Doreen Lawrence18:55

No, I th I believe they were I was too young and Neville's ten years older than I am so Did they come to the wedding? Yes, m um in fact my mother came later. My stepfather was always there with me'cause, you know, he was there and he sort of gave me away and everything. But my mother was still a bit upset, but she didn't come to the service, but she came um to the reception later.

Presenter19:14

So a young married couple, there you were, you were working at the Nat West Bank, and Neville was working making leather uh he was a machinist, wasn't he? He was a machinist, yes.

Doreen Lawrence19:20

He was a machinist, yeah, yeah. He was making leather clothes. Co yeah, and coats and that, yeah. Did he run up some stuff for you? Oh, I had loads things. I mean, it's all the all the the latest coats and stuff in leather, I always I always had those, yeah.

Presenter19:31

Paint me a picture, what would we have found you wearing as you walked down to the Mat West Bank?

Doreen Lawrence19:35

Um they had these double breasted suede and leather, so I used to have the leather going down in the front and strips of suede at the side, and it was a maxi length. And and also because my height and my size, I was quite small as well, so it was quite good that he was able to make me things,'cause buying things from the shop never fitted me properly.

Presenter19:53

And so you knew you wanted to have a family. Stephen was born on the thirteenth of September, nineteen seventy four. What sort of baby was he?

Doreen Lawrence20:01

A very cry cry baby he was, Stephen, yeah. And once he started walking that was it. You know, no more crying, he just could move around. That's what Stephen was like. And as he grew up he wanted there's so many artist stuff that he wanted to do. And he was always busy, always busy. And his ambient

Presenter20:17

His vision was to become an architect.

Doreen Lawrence20:19

Because

Presenter20:19

Yes, exactly.

Doreen Lawrence20:19

Yes, it's um yeah, and he's I mean, so he started drawing very young'cause he always used to do he used to make us all our Christmas cards and birthday cards and things he did.

Presenter20:28

And did being a young mum at home suit you? Was it something you enjoyed?

Doreen Lawrence20:31

I did, I did, I really,'cause I think

Doreen Lawrence20:34

Probably because of when I grew up and not having the structure a unit of a family. And so I had that with my children. You know, we go to the cinema, we go to the museum, we're at the park, we play, so it's a happy time. So I think I wanted my kids to have that memory of a happy childhood.

Presenter20:53

Let's take uh some time for some music uh doringwork.

Presenter20:58

We're on your fifth choice of the day. Tell me about this piece of music. Why are you choosing this?

Doreen Lawrence21:01

Eta James, um

Doreen Lawrence21:04

At last, I heard it before, but it meant a lot more to me when Barack Obama became President of the United States. I think for a black man to achieve that. And I was there. I was in America. I went especially. I was out in a freezing cold like everybody else on the day. I was there. I was one of the two million people. I felt it was really important for me to be there.

Presenter21:25

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence21:29

And so in the evening and they danced to this and it was just a lovely, lovely and Etiha Jane's just a beautiful singer. And so it meant a lot for me.

Speaker 321:42

Let's

Speaker 321:47

My love has come along.

Speaker 321:57

My lonely days

Doreen Lawrence21:57

My lonely day.

Speaker 322:00

All over.

Speaker 322:04

And life is like a song.

Doreen Lawrence22:05

And light

Speaker 322:12

Oh yeah, yeah, at last.

Presenter22:14

Yeah.

Presenter22:18

That was Etta James and At Last. I'm wondering, Doreen Lawrence, um your son Stephen would have been thirty eight this year. How do you do you mark his birthday in a special way, in a personal way?

Doreen Lawrence22:29

Um yeah, I was I've I've visited the spot where he died. I mean there's three times a year that I go. I go on the anniversary of his death, I go on his birthday and I go at Christmastime. And I bring flowers um for him. And I stay as long as I can because I always feel a bit nervous when I'm there. And I talk to him.

Doreen Lawrence22:51

tell him the news, not that he can hear me, but I use that time to talk to him.

Doreen Lawrence22:57

Where he died and the plaque, you know, is that's been attacked so many times.

Presenter23:01

That's it.

Doreen Lawrence23:02

Yes. Um it's the second one's down now because they've took a an axe and hammer and stuff to it, so he would never have been able to rest in peace had he been buried here. Stephen's buried in Jamaica next to your grandmother. Yes. Um after Stephen's death was my aunt's suggestion.

Doreen Lawrence23:19

And on reflection I was really pleased I'd done that.

Doreen Lawrence23:24

I always wondered what was it about Stephen's name and what about Stephen? That seems to it's like they have a fear around his name and they want to wipe it away. And that I don't understand because at the end of the day, even in life, Stephen was no problem and no trouble to anybody, and in death, it certainly is not that. You say that.

Presenter23:43

That when you go to the spot where your son was attacked, you know, you you talk to him, you you tell him about the news.

Presenter23:51

What do you think he would have made of this in incredible journey that you personally have made? You know, this n nineteen, nearly twenty years that you've devoted to the struggle for justice, of getting your degree, setting up the foundation, becoming a

Presenter24:06

Well, a national public figure. What would he make of that?

Doreen Lawrence24:10

He would be quite astonished that I've done all of that. But at the same time, I think Steve would have been proud of me.

Doreen Lawrence24:17

As he was growing up, you know, the things we talked about and what I'd like to see him do, even though sometimes they said to me, Mum, you know what your problem is?

Doreen Lawrence24:24

He said, Mum, you care too much.

Doreen Lawrence24:27

and I remember those words that he said to me.

Doreen Lawrence24:29

I think if only he knew how much I did care at the time. But when your children are young, you take them for granted, you don't believe anything would happen to them.

Doreen Lawrence24:40

And when they're not there anymore, you realize how much I've got to say to me for more, how many times how much I care, how much I love him.

Doreen Lawrence24:48

But, as I say, you take them for granted.

Doreen Lawrence24:51

Do you think they're going to be there forever?

Presenter24:53

What about your own daughter? You know, she was only ten when her brother w was murdered. What effect do you think long term it's had on her?

Doreen Lawrence25:01

Yeah.

Presenter25:01

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence25:03

It has deeply, deeply, I think Georgina is still going through a difficult time because all of her secondary school life and everything has been taken up with this. After Stephen's death, I remember the morning because Stuart knew the night before'cause he was still awake, but Georgina didn't. So she woke up in the morning and she came down and she saw me crying. It's like, Mum, what's happened? She heard her dad on the phone talking and she just ran upstairs screaming, screaming.

Doreen Lawrence25:37

And I think at that time it's either they want to deny it happened, but they both went to school. They wanted to have, I presume, pretend it didn't happen. Yeah, life's normal. Yeah, so they went off to school on that day. Because you don't want them to go. You want to hold them because you don't know what's going to happen if they go through the door. And they just wanted to break away and have that freedom, have some sort of normality. And I think that's what they've been trying to do ever since.

Speaker 325:43

Uh

Presenter26:06

Okay.

Doreen Lawrence26:07

I'll take a break for a second.

Presenter26:07

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence26:08

Music there. Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence26:10

Doreen, tell me about number six. Garth Hewitt wrote this song about After Stephen's death, and the song is called Am You're Loved. When somebody dies like that and it was so sudden.

Doreen Lawrence26:24

You you wanted to think, do they know that you love them? You know, and having hearing this and and for me it meant so much that that the couple um I mean so there's some stuff around that, but the couple was supposed to say to Stephen this is the couple who who tried to help him as he was lying in the street who went to him after uh after he had collapsed and said to him, um, that you're loved.

Presenter26:41

Yeah.

Speaker 326:47

You are love Speaker.

Speaker 326:54

You are love, she whispered in his ear.

Speaker 327:01

You are life of the Lord.

Speaker 327:09

She bent down and she whispered in his ear

Presenter27:16

That was Garth Hewitt and Your Loved. You have had some significant allies in your fight along the way, but very early on, noticeably it was a meeting that you had in May of nineteen ninety three with Nelson Mandela that did get a lot of attention. Can you tell me about the circumstances surrounding that?

Presenter27:33

Uh

Doreen Lawrence27:33

You know, meeting him was just an unbelievable experience, because this man was so calm as he speaks to you. And I remember when I walked into the room, because he's a giant of a man, maybe he'd been about five foot one, so I was so small next to him. And when he said that in South Africa, he knows that black lives are cheap, but he did not expect that to be in this country.

Doreen Lawrence27:57

And I think that's what I I held on to.

Presenter28:01

And of course the name Stephen, you know, is is close to your heart. Stephen Lawrence is your son, but to the rest of us, you know, the name Stephen Lawrence now.

Presenter28:09

marks a sea change in British culture. We we know now that the name Stephen Lawrence stands for the McPherson Inquiry, it stands for the foundation you've started, where you've given the opportunity for young architects to go on and give bursaries to them and so on, and you yourself, as we know, are on the Board of Liberty and you've sat on Home Office committees.

Doreen Lawrence28:10

And yes.

Presenter28:28

The fact that the name Stephen Lawrence stands for something culturally now, a shift, really, in British culture.

Presenter28:35

Is that significant to you? Can you take any degree of comfort from that?

Doreen Lawrence28:41

Um

Doreen Lawrence28:42

Part of me, yes, because I think um his name has managed to make so many changes and positive changes. Um I think I I keep saying that if I could turn the clock back and all of that, I'd much prefer to have Stephen for myself. But I have to live with the fact that he brings a lot more things

Presenter29:03

For other people. And you've handed out so far 100 bursaries and eight qualified architects. It must take a lot of time to do that. That's a lot of effort.

Doreen Lawrence29:12

I work full time for the trust. And yes, it takes a lot of time up'cause I want to make sure that the trust becomes a lasting legacy for Steven. And I just think it's amazing in the short space of time,'cause the trust is only, what, fourteen years old, so it's not really that old.

Doreen Lawrence29:28

And we've managed to have these young people who's come through the other end.

Doreen Lawrence29:33

and I could not want for a better.

Doreen Lawrence29:36

were a reminder of what Stephen could have been had he been able to have completed his degree.

Presenter29:42

Let's have some music.

Doreen Lawrence29:43

Later on Um we're gonna hear Mamma Africa Garnet Silk. At Stephen's funeral, um his friend Elvin had put together a compilation of all of Stephen's favourite music and out of all the music this is the one that really stuck in my mind.

Speaker 330:03

Hello Mama Africa, how are you?

Speaker 330:09

I'm feeling fine and I hope you're fine too.

Speaker 330:14

Hello Mama Africa, how are you?

Speaker 330:20

Oh, when you hear these words, your grace turned low.

Speaker 330:28

We still know

Speaker 330:31

And sing these words.

Presenter30:34

That was Garnet Silk and Mama Africa. So, Doreen Lawrence, you did say in the book that you wrote, My marriage died the same night Stephen died, though I did not know it yet. That is something that's very common to a lot of families who suffer bereavement, is that you know that the the relationship can't sustain that sort of pressure.

Doreen Lawrence30:53

Yes. I didn't know it then, but as time went on, I think it was thinking about I think it was 95 and I realized that no, I didn't have a marriage anymore. And not because it's something I wanted. I don't think I ever wanted to say that Neville and I would separate. But I think he is I think he got there before I did. Grief has its way of affecting people in different ways. And we've had to try and live our life the best way that we can.

Doreen Lawrence31:25

But when it times comes like the trial, we're able to come back together.

Presenter31:29

Your other two children, Georgina is an interior designer and your son Stuart is a teacher, a graphics teacher. What do you do with them when you're spending time with them? How do you relax and enjoy yourself with them?

Doreen Lawrence31:40

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence31:41

I think we don't we don't talk about any of this stuff. We talk about the kids who are you know, and what they're doing, we watch them play. We just talk about ordinary things. You know, we watch T V or we go out.

Presenter31:53

And who's do I know your grandma was a great cook.

Doreen Lawrence31:56

Wh who does the cooking at home? You the cook? Um, I'm so much I don't do as much cooking as I used to as my kids, but my son Joe is a really good cook. I think he does most of the meals in his house now, and he is and and he bakes cakes and all sorts of things now. Joe is a great cook, and Georgina, the both of them are.

Presenter32:13

Looking at your children, your children that have gone out there into the big wide world and have got

Presenter32:17

Their relationships and their marriages, and you've got your grandchildren, you can presumably take a lot of pride in that.

Doreen Lawrence32:19

You've got your

Doreen Lawrence32:22

Well, definitely. I think I I worked extremely hard after Stevens as to make sure that it has some sort of normal life.

Doreen Lawrence32:29

Um I've kept them away from the press and I think I've I've managed to achieve that. But I do take pride in my kids and I think I've done extremely well in order to protect them as much as I have done over the years. You say you've been on your own for a long time looking ahead. Would would you like to be in a relationship?

Doreen Lawrence32:45

Oh, definitely, I would really,'cause I think I think we all need that. We all need to have a companion.

Doreen Lawrence32:51

But I presume being who I am makes it difficult. I think people don't know how to.

Doreen Lawrence32:56

Approach or how to, I don't know. I think people find it difficult.

Presenter33:01

Do they ever try and match make for you? Do they ever say, Mum, I've met? You know, I think I might

Doreen Lawrence33:06

No, but Jordan is always encouraging me, is that Mum, you need to do this and Mum, you need to go. And Mum, didn't you notice this? Yeah, Georgiana is always trying to um say to me, Mum, you need to get out of there, you need to do this. Jordan, wake up.

Presenter33:16

Need to do

Doreen Lawrence33:18

Yeah, Shana She's telling I need to do that.

Presenter33:18

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence33:20

Yeah.

Presenter33:20

It's time for your final piece of music, Doreen Lawrence. Tell us about why you've chosen this.

Doreen Lawrence33:25

Eric Clapton is a song that he did for his son when his son died and we had this song in fact Karina who is a family member she sang this at Stephen's funeral and so every time we have a big service we always have this for Stephen's. I think it means so much because as Eric Clapton's only son had died, you know tears in heaven which I think that's where I am.

Doreen Lawrence33:50

Would you know my name?

Speaker 333:56

I saw you when heaven.

Speaker 334:03

What a people say.

Speaker 334:09

I saw you in here.

Presenter34:17

Scroll

Presenter34:22

That was Eric Clapton and Tears in Heaven. So, Doreen, it's time to give you the books. I give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you get to take another book along to the island. What's it going to be?

Doreen Lawrence34:33

That was a really difficult one for me to choose. And I think Maya Angelou's one, um, I Know Why the Cade Broads Sing. I think that's the book I think I'd like to take. Okay, you get to take that. You also get to take a luxury.

Doreen Lawrence34:46

Yeah, my luxury would have to be um a solar um radio that could listen to the radio, so you have the sun.

Presenter34:52

So yeah, the sun

Presenter34:54

No, it's not allowed. It's not allowed. I'm sorry. I mean, I do feel that I'm being quite unpleasant here, but yeah.

Doreen Lawrence34:58

Yeah.

Doreen Lawrence35:00

What would be my luxury then?

Presenter35:01

Breathing.

Doreen Lawrence35:04

I'd I'd probably love to take some artist things with me then. There'll have to be some artistry things that I can create things. So it reminds me of, say, my children and probably what my young life as I was growing up. Okay, I think I'll give

Presenter35:18

I'm feeling generous, an entire sort of artist's workshop to do what you will and make and paint and do all of that sort of stuff. You can have that on the island then. I think that would be, yeah. And if you had to save one of these discs from the waves, which one would you save?

Presenter35:34

Um, Fallen Soldier. It's yours, Doreen Lawrence. Thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter36:17

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.