Denise Robertson

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:35

My castaway this week is the agony aunt and writer Denise Robertson.

Presenter0:39

If they awarded degrees in empathy, she would have gained a double first. A warm heart and a kind ear have served her well during four decades of dishing out advice. But her most obvious attribute for the job is having herself lived a life beset by struggle and tragedy. She's been widowed twice, dealt with financial hardship, and lost a child to cancer. She says the greatest enigma of all, as far as I'm concerned, is why the pendulum must always swing from zero to a hundred, and never stop at the midway point where most of us would prefer it to be. And I wondered, as I read that, Denise, if you were talking about the lives of the people who write to you and call into you, or if you were talking about your own life.

Denise Robertson1:20

Uh

Denise Robertson1:21

And my life has swung from one extreme to the other.

Denise Robertson1:24

when really most of us want the pendulum to be in the middle.

Denise Robertson1:28

And I think people see it depending on on their own view of it. I remember walking across the market square in Sunderland once

Denise Robertson1:36

And a woman who I didn't know put her hand on my arm and said, You've had a tragic life.

Denise Robertson1:43

and walked on, and I stood there thinking, What does she mean? Because I've had a brilliant life.

Denise Robertson1:48

There have been times when I've thought, just as I get things right.

Denise Robertson1:54

Fate steps in and kicks the steps away from under me.

Denise Robertson1:58

But then you pick yourself up again, and one thing I have learned

Denise Robertson2:03

That the anticipation of bad things is much, much worse.

Denise Robertson2:08

than when the bad thing happens.

Denise Robertson2:10

There's almost a sense of relief when you think, well, it's come.

Denise Robertson2:15

Now I deal with

Presenter2:15

With it.

Denise Robertson2:16

Yeah.

Presenter2:16

Um what about in anticipating something rather jolly? In June you celebrate a big birthday?

Presenter2:22

I'm not looking

Denise Robertson2:23

Mm-hmm.

Presenter2:23

Oh it

Denise Robertson2:23

That at all, of course I hate birthdays with O's in them. Absolutely hate them. Yeah.

Presenter2:28

Yes.

Denise Robertson2:29

Pretending it isn't happening.

Presenter2:31

Yeah. Um you've been on the sofa at this morning for for almost twenty five years as as the agony aunt and you said, you know, the woman in the market square uh you know put her hand out and said you've had a difficult life. People must feel that they know you. That's what happens with television, especially when you've been on it such a long time. Do people sort of approach you and feel as if your story is their story?

Denise Robertson2:50

But people are lovely. I think one of the things that I've gained from the years of being an Agniant is that I like the human race much better than I did at the beginning.

Denise Robertson3:04

and I think I've had something emails and letters something like a quarter of a million.

Denise Robertson3:10

There have been very few. That I thought I don't like

Presenter3:12

Thank you.

Presenter3:15

Let's go to the music, Denise. Tell me about the first piece of music that you've chosen today. What is it and why?

Denise Robertson3:20

It's Louis Armstrong singing It's a Wonderful World. It was

Denise Robertson3:24

My first husband's favourite record.

Denise Robertson3:28

And for that reason it's precious to me, but it's just also a lovely sentiment.

Denise Robertson3:35

Because with all its problems it is a wonderful world.

Denise Robertson3:40

As

Speaker 43:40

The trees are green.

Speaker 43:44

Red roof is too big.

Speaker 43:48

I'd see them bloom.

Speaker 43:51

Fucking you.

Speaker 43:53

And I think to myself.

Speaker 43:59

What a wonderful

Presenter4:07

Louis Armstrong and What a Wonderful World. Um it has to be said, Denise Robertson, that you have chosen a very emotional list today. Are your emotions quite close to the surface?

Denise Robertson4:16

Uh

Denise Robertson4:16

I think so.

Denise Robertson4:18

In one way I think it's a drawback.

Denise Robertson4:20

And I am better at controlling them now. I don't cry as much as I did.

Presenter4:25

It's quite a depressing line of work, isn't it? You meet people at at their lowest ebb when they've often given up almost all hope. No, it

Denise Robertson4:34

It's the reverse of depressing, because you can have your own troubles.

Denise Robertson4:42

And you start to read the letters and you realize you're not as badly off as you thought you were. When I started on BBC Breakfast Time,

Denise Robertson4:50

They they used to be a joke, and one day I would open a letter without saying, Oh, I remember when that happened to me.

Denise Robertson5:00

Hmm.

Denise Robertson5:01

But there's almost always something you can do.

Denise Robertson5:05

The letters I find hardest to deal with are letters from people who are going to lose someone they love.

Denise Robertson5:13

That's difficult.

Denise Robertson5:16

I remember the first person I lost was my father.

Denise Robertson5:19

And I was devastated.

Denise Robertson5:22

And the worst thing that you can feel when you lose somebody is that it doesn't matter.

Denise Robertson5:28

The drop in the ocean.

Denise Robertson5:29

And that's a terrible feeling. Nobody should have to feel like that.

Presenter5:33

What about the times when you find yourself suddenly plunged into the middle of somebody else's tragedy? I'm thinking particularly now of I I think when you started out, there was a phone call from a young mother who had a

Presenter5:44

an incessantly crying baby and she was about to take a lethal dose of pills and she had called you up on the radio. Would

Denise Robertson5:50

Did you do? That was one of the scariest moments of my life.

Denise Robertson5:54

And on this day I'm doing a phone in.

Denise Robertson5:58

And this voice comes through.

Denise Robertson6:00

I have taken a a lethal dose of pills. I can't go on, and there's a baby crying in the background.

Denise Robertson6:06

And she said, I'm not going to tell you where I am until I know it's too late for you to do anything, but then I want you to come and take my baby.

Denise Robertson6:16

And I ran out of the studio.

Denise Robertson6:19

and there was nobody to help.

Denise Robertson6:21

And I ran along and knocked on doors, empty rooms, and eventually I came to the door of the big boss who you were not supposed to disturb. He stood up, took his coat off, folded it over a chair, and said right and from then on I talked to her and got clues.

Denise Robertson6:41

And I remember we found out her doctor's name. But what happened in the end was that we did find her doctor, we did ring him up, he came, and he took the phone and said, It's all right, I'm here now.

Denise Robertson6:53

And I came outside and the most peculiar thing happened. I remember the tops of my legs were shaking.

Denise Robertson7:00

And I got into the car and sat, and I thought, what have I done? Maybe she wanted to be out of this world, and I'd stopped her.

Denise Robertson7:10

And I think that was the moment when the fearful responsibility

Denise Robertson7:14

of being an agniant really hit me for the first time.

Denise Robertson7:18

But she later on wrote to me and thanked me.

Denise Robertson7:21

And how long?

Presenter7:22

How long are you

Denise Robertson7:22

Buff. I would think about ten days, and she wrote and said, I'm glad, I'm I'm going to be all right, and I'm glad you did it.

Presenter7:32

Time to take a break for some music, Denise. Your second disc of the day is what

Denise Robertson7:36

What? Oh, a song just simply makes me happy. It's Charles Trene singing La Mer.

Speaker 47:43

La Main

Speaker 47:46

Convadency.

Speaker 47:49

Leno Le Golf Clay.

Speaker 47:54

Ardevafflais, d'Avaçon, la mai.

Speaker 48:00

They work really shown.

Speaker 48:02

The blue La May.

Presenter8:10

Charles Rene and La Mer. So, Denise Robertson, you were born in 1932, brought up in Sunderland. Describe to me the the family home.

Denise Robertson8:18

Yeah.

Presenter8:18

I was

Denise Robertson8:19

I have a chair in my hall now. Little

Denise Robertson8:22

tub chair, which my mother told me was the one thing the bailiffs didn't take because she was sitting in it pregnant with me. Um my father's business had collapsed and it was it was an odd existence because I had two parents who loved one another passionately.

Denise Robertson8:42

So that side of things was wonderful, but like all people who've had money, they didn't know how to manage not having money.

Denise Robertson8:52

Before it went, yes. And where did it go? It went, my father was deceived in in a business, the house was repossessed.

Denise Robertson9:00

The Bailiffs were in

Denise Robertson9:02

But his mother, who was quite a martinette, could not forgive him for having another child.

Denise Robertson9:10

When uh he'd fallen on hard times. That child being you. That child being.

Presenter9:14

Me.

Denise Robertson9:15

Uh

Presenter9:15

Uh you said a moment ago that your parents were, you know, madly in love, really. They conducted this huge love affair all the way through their marriage. Sometimes that can make children feel left out. They feel as if they're sort of also Rands in the set up. You you never felt that?

Denise Robertson9:27

Yeah.

Denise Robertson9:27

No, I I felt loved.

Denise Robertson9:31

I didn't feel as loved as my sister. Who was 10 years older? And that was hard because.

Presenter9:34

He was ten years older.

Denise Robertson9:38

When I was growing up, the house was filled with studio portraits of my sister, and there were no photographs of me at all.

Denise Robertson9:47

Now with hindsight, there wasn't any money for photographs, but you don't realize that when you're a little girl, and it never occurred to anybody to tell me.

Denise Robertson9:56

Because my sister was lovely. I couldn't even hate her.

Presenter10:00

Uh

Denise Robertson10:00

You know, which would have been helpful.

Presenter10:01

I couldn't do that. How hard up were you? I mean, w there was money to eat, presumably, and there was, you know, money to get to the bottom.

Denise Robertson10:07

There was money to eat, the real problem was that they could not come to terms with having come down in the world.

Denise Robertson10:16

And I think that lesson's been very useful to me, because when I came down in the world in a similar fashion,

Denise Robertson10:23

I thought this is something I'm going to overcome, because everything would always come round to if Daddy hadn't lost his money.

Denise Robertson10:32

The d

Denise Robertson10:33

I mustn't give the impression that they weren't wonderful parents they were.

Denise Robertson10:37

They gave me a very strong sense of how wonderful the place where I was born was. So of course I thought I'd been born in the hub of the universe. I still think that.

Presenter10:48

So much to talk about, but music to fit in too, Denise, so we shall go to your third piece of the morning. Tell us what we're going to hear.

Denise Robertson10:54

We're going to hear oh I love this. Um my very wonderful and lovely third husband is mad about cricket and one of the boys bought him uh the Duck with Lewis C D, which is all about cricket. And we play it in the car and we sing this one at the top of our voices.

Speaker 111:14

At first, the ball looked straight enough. I had it in my sights. But such was its rotation that it swerved out to the right. I thought, well, that's a leg break that's easily defended. So I stuck my left leg out and jammed my bat against it. But the ball it span obscenely, and out of the rough it jumped, veered back across my

Presenter11:45

The Duckworth Lewis method and jiggery pokery. So as a little girl, Denise Robertson, you were as bright as a button. Is it true that you taught yourself to read by um by trying to figure out what all the letters on the sauce bottle meant?

Denise Robertson11:57

Well, I remember this particular toilet roll had little mottoes in it, and I discovered these mottoes, and so I sat on the loo and pulled the toilet roll down till all the m and my mother came in and the look on her face because this this had cost money and she was trying to roll it up

Denise Robertson12:15

And I read sauce bottles, I read

Denise Robertson12:18

Uh the motto's out of the loo paper, and I taught myself to read.

Denise Robertson12:24

And my mother helped me when she saw what was happening. And when you did go to school, then you got on well. You were right.

Denise Robertson12:30

I was very unhappy at school. My poor

Speaker 412:32

Yeah.

Denise Robertson12:33

I loved work and I adored exams, but

Denise Robertson12:38

I was sent first of all, my grandmother paid for me to go to a little private school, and I think the reason was that

Denise Robertson12:47

I couldn't have the extras, the things that

Denise Robertson12:51

that the school thought I should have. So I would tell fibs and I would get into trouble, constantly trying to pretend

Denise Robertson13:01

We were

Denise Robertson13:03

Other than we were.

Denise Robertson13:05

Which has made me at times I think probably be too down to earth if I'm honest. I haven't any room for flummery.

Presenter13:13

You had when you were about twelve time away from school. Was it about

Denise Robertson13:16

I'd won a scholarship, two a fee paying school, and again there was c this constant that I didn't have

Denise Robertson13:27

the things that I needed and that I was expected to have.

Denise Robertson13:31

And I just suddenly thought I can't do this any more, and I'd go to school.

Denise Robertson13:37

I just couldn't go through the door, and it it was I didn't go to school for over a year. It's a feeling that if you go in there you are doomed.

Presenter13:46

What did your mother to have a 12-year-old who's refusing to go to school and and being at home for a year, you know, that that is a

Denise Robertson13:52

They were unbelievably distressed because I think in some sense there was a feeling that I was going to restore the family fortunes, and all of a sudden I wasn't this clever little girl that won scholarships. I was

Presenter13:53

But we distressed.

Denise Robertson14:07

You're a truant.

Denise Robertson14:09

for want of a better word. They were lovely to me, and they tried I remember them breaking the money together for me to go to the Empire Theatre. Everything was to cheer me up.

Denise Robertson14:21

And sitting in the theatre and thinking they're going to expect this is going to solve everything, and it isn't.

Presenter14:30

Some music.

Presenter14:31

We're on your fourth disk, Denise. Tell me why you've chosen this.

Denise Robertson14:36

Well

Denise Robertson14:37

As you might have gathered, I'm passionate about the city of Sunderland. And in the years that I've been coming away from home, Sunderland has gone through some bad times. But through it all, the football club was the one thing I could boast about. And there's a feeling when you know we are so passionate, the red and whites, and that feeling when you hear this music and you think, my team's coming out. Wonderful.

Presenter16:08

The Dance of the Nights from Romeo and Juliet by Prokofieff, performed by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir George Schulte. So you could have gone to university, Denise Robertson, but uh your your head mistress wanted you to, but you didn't. Why not?

Presenter16:21

Yeah.

Denise Robertson16:21

I wanted to earn some money, very simple.

Denise Robertson16:24

Coming out of school was like coming out of prison.

Presenter16:27

So as a young woman then you uh you married your first husband Alex and you had a baby son and then you started working as a counsellor and you started your first sort of forays into writing at that point as well, is that right? What happened was that

Presenter16:41

Uh I

Denise Robertson16:42

Yeah.

Denise Robertson16:42

Yeah.

Presenter16:42

Yeah.

Denise Robertson16:42

I wrote for fun.

Denise Robertson16:45

And I sent some work away to the BBC.

Denise Robertson16:50

The two men who were running that programme were Alan Aykebourne and Alan Plater, then both unknown, so I I fell into very good hands. There was a

Presenter17:00

Point though when this writing that you were doing started to get well, it started to get nationally noticed, you entered a competition which I think a couple of thousand other people entered too. It was to write a piece for T V and and you won the competition and you won a check for a thousand pounds.

Speaker 117:05

Yeah.

Denise Robertson17:16

Yes, and it was the most amazing experience because people came from London to interview me and I remember one article and I think the Telegraph said that I was a a Dylan Thomas of the North East. Very heady and very good.

Presenter17:29

Very heavy and very

Denise Robertson17:36

and we were bringing our little boy to London for the first time.

Denise Robertson17:41

And we stayed in a little hotel in Gray's Inn Road and we had a lovely, lovely time.

Denise Robertson17:47

And the play was produced with the stars who were current at the time, and in the week that it was screened I found that my husband had lung cancer.

Presenter18:04

Can I ask you, did he know he was ill when all of this was going on and just didn't tell you?

Denise Robertson18:08

We went into the country. Um we went out into the Cleveland Hills, which is where we loved to go. And on the way home he said, I haven't

Denise Robertson18:17

told you this because it's life's been so

Denise Robertson18:21

Busy, but I don't feel very well.

Denise Robertson18:24

And he had

Denise Robertson18:25

terminal cancer, and he died a few months later.

Denise Robertson18:29

And that was when

Denise Robertson18:31

I had to make the decision.

Denise Robertson18:34

I had a widow's pension of ten pounds and fivepence a week.

Denise Robertson18:39

and that was to keep two of us. And it was nineteen seventy three.

Denise Robertson18:45

And um it wasn't enough to live on.

Denise Robertson18:49

And

Denise Robertson18:50

So I started to write, and I wrote about the things that were happening to me, and people started writing to me.

Denise Robertson18:57

So I then became an agony aunt behind the scenes, and later on.

Denise Robertson19:02

became a radioagneon.

Denise Robertson19:04

Let's take a break for some music.

Presenter19:06

We're uh run your fifth choice. What are we gonna hear, Denise?

Denise Robertson19:11

I think West Side's story is one of the most important things that's been written.

Denise Robertson19:17

I love the message.

Denise Robertson19:19

But

Denise Robertson19:20

We live together or we die together, and West Side's story has such a powerful message. But one of the things that I love is uh the the song One Hand, One Heart.

Speaker 419:34

Us make of our minds one.

Speaker 419:41

Day after a day on the

Speaker 419:49

How it be blessed!

Speaker 419:52

Oh risk dark

Presenter20:04

That was Jim Bryant and Marnie Nixon singing One Hand, One Heart from the original soundtrack to West Side Story. You've written, Denise Robertson, that married people sometimes allow themselves a a few seconds to imagine how they might behave if they were widowed. You know, they they imagine themselves being brave and and noble and all those sorts of things, and you said actually it's nothing like that. How did you behave?

Denise Robertson20:28

I had lost everybody. I had lost sister, mother, husband, in a short space of time, and that marriage had

Denise Robertson20:37

Given me so much stability.

Denise Robertson20:39

And he made me feel safe.

Denise Robertson20:44

and that I could achieve anything.

Denise Robertson20:47

And suddenly he wasn't there.

Presenter20:50

Your sister had died of a a massive sudden heart attack when she was only forty two.

Presenter20:58

You've written um.

Presenter21:00

very poignantly about those those weeks and months after Alex's death and saying that you went on buying the s he was the only person in the house that liked grapefruit. And there you are, you'd still order you'd still buy in the grapefruit and you bought too much milk and it would all go sour. You were sort of surrounded by the debris

Denise Robertson21:15

Because not to buy it would have been acknowledging that he wasn't there anymore.

Presenter21:17

Bye.

Presenter21:21

Yes.

Denise Robertson21:21

And I couldn't carry out that action.

Denise Robertson21:24

And very soon after that, when I was in this muddled up state, I did, through my son, who met two children, and I became very fond of them,

Denise Robertson21:37

Their father was widowed, and very soon after we married.

Denise Robertson21:42

Which I then had a job to do. I had five children to care for, because th there were four of his children, and he had a very shaky business. And so I had a job to do, and that pulled me out.

Presenter21:57

It's after Alexa died that you remarried, is that right, sir? A year. Right, so soon. I mean, d was it was there a degree of pragmatism involved in that? Did you think I'm going to make a unit and here's a unit and we can come together?

Denise Robertson21:59

A year.

Speaker 122:02

I mean do

Presenter22:10

And, you know, that'll sort it out.

Presenter22:13

Um

Denise Robertson22:14

I'm not sure that I thought it through that clearly.

Denise Robertson22:17

W once when we were doing this morning, Fern Britton asked me a question. She said, What's the biggest decision you've ever made?

Denise Robertson22:27

And I heard myself and you must know this you you hear words coming out and you think, Why are you saying that? and I said, Fern, I've never made a decision in my life.

Denise Robertson22:38

I'm a reactive person.

Denise Robertson22:41

Life happens, and I deal with it.

Denise Robertson22:45

Um

Denise Robertson22:45

There are children who need a mother, I'll be the mother.

Denise Robertson22:49

And that is how I have got through, by reacting to situations, rather than deciding this is where my life will go.

Presenter22:58

Yeah.

Presenter22:59

Yeah.

Denise Robertson22:59

Let's have some music.

Presenter22:59

It's your sixth disc of the morning, Denise Robertson. What is it?

Denise Robertson23:03

Yeah.

Presenter23:04

We're going to have

Denise Robertson23:05

Okay.

Presenter23:06

Yeah.

Denise Robertson23:06

This I've got mixed feelings about this.

Denise Robertson23:10

When I eventually when we were in pretty dire straits and I was offered a job on BBC Breakfast Time, which I turned down.

Denise Robertson23:19

And then they told me how much they were going to pay me. I mean, we we were really we'd lost the roof over our head, we'd moved into um a vandalized house which had the windows boarded up.

Denise Robertson23:32

But I did not want to leave home, and I had.

Denise Robertson23:37

Uh a Sonny Walkman.

Denise Robertson23:39

with and I I only had one thing in it, which was the songs from the Auvergne. And I used to sit on the train and cry all the way down to London with the songs from the Auvergne ringing in my ears. And it's Victoria de Los Angeles singing Balero.

Presenter24:54

Victoria de Los Angeles and Baileraux arranged by Joseph Canteloube with the Lamarau Orchestra conducted by Jean-Pierre Jacquillas.

Presenter25:02

Here's the thing, you've written tw is it, twenty-three novels. Yes.

Denise Robertson25:05

I think

Presenter25:06

Start.

Denise Robertson25:06

Uh

Presenter25:06

Stop counting. In a way, has that been an escape from the the weight of the world writing for you?

Denise Robertson25:12

It is an escape, and I enjoy it hugely.

Denise Robertson25:16

When I was happily married, it was my fun, my my little hobby, and then

Denise Robertson25:24

When he died I wrote my first novel

Denise Robertson25:28

and then put it in a drawer.

Denise Robertson25:30

It wasn't until later on I'd remarried. My new husband's business had gone bust, we were going to lose the house.

Denise Robertson25:39

I had to make money, and I got it out and looked at it, and it was full of crying. And the one thing I knew by then was nobody wants somebody else's tears in buckets. And I was living in a mining community. I took that novel

Denise Robertson25:57

took out the a lot of the crying.

Denise Robertson26:00

but made that mining community

Denise Robertson26:03

come to life as far as I could.

Presenter26:05

Um

Presenter26:06

Thinking about work and thinking about how it's helped you to get through the tough times, not just by paying the bill, I'm wondering about.

Presenter26:12

That period in your life that surely

Presenter26:14

Must have been the hardest when you had to go and sit on the

Presenter26:17

This morning, a sofa with Philip Schofield and Fern Britton, and you kn knew that your son was suffering terribly with cancer. To actually go out there and feel that you

Presenter26:27

could marshal your resources and give other people advice must have been close to impossible.

Denise Robertson26:32

The hardest part of that, and here I must pay tribute to Philip and Fern.

Denise Robertson26:38

Without them I don't think I'd have got through it and without

Denise Robertson26:43

them I would not have gone back to work afterwards.

Denise Robertson26:46

Um Losing John.

Denise Robertson26:49

It came in a year in which

Denise Robertson26:53

I'd b been awarded the MBE, I'd been given the Freedom of Sunderland, and you know, that was the best moment.

Denise Robertson27:01

It was about two weeks after that.

Denise Robertson27:04

He said to me, I don't feel very well.

Denise Robertson27:07

And I said, Well, go to the doctor's darling it won't be anything.

Denise Robertson27:12

and his wife rang me from the hospital and said we're coming straight over and I knew from her voice and there was nothing could be done and it was just inevitable.

Denise Robertson27:27

And he helped me.

Denise Robertson27:30

Because my first thought was, how am I going to talk to him? I love him so much. You know, we had had such fun together, recreating.

Denise Robertson27:41

the childhood they should have had.

Denise Robertson27:44

And I was going to lose him.

Denise Robertson27:46

Two things pulled me through. One was how magnificent he was.

Denise Robertson27:51

He was immensely brave, and the thing that sustained me was that he had lived.

Denise Robertson27:58

With my help, the life he wanted, when his father wanted him to go to university and he wanted to join the Royal Navy, and I battled for him.

Denise Robertson28:09

And he joined the navy. He married

Denise Robertson28:12

unbelievably happy and had two children. And I think

Denise Robertson28:17

That if you lose somebody and you can think, well, their life was pretty good, and in his case, wonderful.

Denise Robertson28:27

It helps.

Denise Robertson28:29

Let's take a break.

Presenter28:29

Wait for some music then, Denise.

Presenter28:32

Rom your

Presenter28:34

Seventh, uh Disc of the Day. Tell me what you've chosen.

Denise Robertson28:38

I am crackers about Limisarobla. How many times have you seen it? I've seen it thirteen times. And I love it because I think at heart I'm a bit of a a revolutionary. I think that people should make change.

Denise Robertson28:53

And one more day for me says if the people will something, it will happen.

Speaker 429:17

You are stand, you are a champ when you take a place with me. The time is life, the day is here.

Speaker 429:31

WOAL

Presenter29:33

One day more from the original London cast recording of Les Miserable, with music composed by Jean Claude Schoenberg and lyrics by Herbert Kretzner. Um what about your own little world now? It seems very happy. As you say, you're married for the third time, very happily, and you're surrounded

Presenter29:49

By your children and your grandchildren. Do you have any great-grandchildren? Have you? And how many grandchildren do you have? Eight.

Denise Robertson29:53

Have you?

Denise Robertson29:56

Yeah.

Presenter29:56

Right, okay. Uh

Denise Robertson29:57

So do you see lots of them? They're coming and going at the same time.

Denise Robertson30:03

and we come together if we can once a year. Everybody is in the same place. And I am married to the boyfriend I had when I was fifteen. Indeed. And we didn't see each other for all those intervening years. And he is

Denise Robertson30:21

Wonderful, and makes my life heaven.

Presenter30:23

Yeah.

Presenter30:24

And it suits you being married, obviously. The fact that you've been married, you know, as as we know, widowed twice, married three times, you you think uh just thinking back to your parents' very happy marriage, they gave you a sort of template for how it could be

Denise Robertson30:34

I saw what it could be like if two people loved one another.

Presenter30:38

Yeah. In your own words, Denise, you are a survivor. You will, of course, have to be a survivor on this island. You're going to be cast away to the desert island on your own. How will you be on your own?

Denise Robertson30:47

I'm not going to enjoy it.

Presenter30:49

Yeah.

Denise Robertson30:49

No. I like being with people and I think my one thought

Denise Robertson30:56

On that island would be how I was going to get off.

Speaker 430:59

Mm.

Denise Robertson31:00

I would deal with it.

Presenter31:02

Somehow. Yeah.

Denise Robertson31:08

That's the only thing I'd really want to build Kirsty's life raft.

Presenter31:12

Can't comment on that. You're not really allowed to do that. It's time for our final piece of music, anyway, Denise. What are we going to hear?

Denise Robertson31:17

Yeah.

Denise Robertson31:18

Well, obviously this morning has been a huge part of my life.

Denise Robertson31:22

And the thing I'm proud of

Denise Robertson31:24

Is the fact that when there is any kind of national crisis.

Denise Robertson31:29

We become somebody the nation turns to. And so the big moments I remember it this morning are.

Denise Robertson31:37

Diana's death, the London bombings, the Iraq war, and all those people ringing in and wanting to find s succour. And I wanted a lovely piece of music, and I remembered when

Denise Robertson31:55

Andrea Bocelli, he and Sarah Brightman will perform. And.

Denise Robertson32:01

They started to sing, and everybody suddenly just wanted to listen to the music. So this is my happy musical memory of this morning.

Speaker 432:20

Soon I'll be great money.

Speaker 432:24

Maybe for the first time.

Speaker 432:28

That's the one.

Presenter32:40

Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Breitman and Time to Say Goodbye by Francesco Sartori. So we come to the moment then when I shall give you the books, Denise, I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take another book along. What would you like to take?

Denise Robertson32:55

I'd like a book on building rafts. Or, alternatively, I remember my mother telling me that my father in the early days built his own radio with something called a cat's whisker, so if I can secrete one about my person as that maroon.

Denise Robertson33:12

Uh I'd like a book on building a rig. Deal.

Presenter33:14

Okay, I'm not going to frisk you for the cat's whisker, but I will say, can we give you a sort of general book on practical survival? That'll do. And a luxury, too. What would you like?

Denise Robertson33:21

That'll do.

Denise Robertson33:24

Now it's very difficult,'cause there are two things I can't live without. One is mascara.

Denise Robertson33:29

'Cause if you've got fair eyelashes you feel naked without your mascara.

Denise Robertson33:34

And the other thing is my earrings, without which I cannot talk.

Speaker 433:39

Next.

Denise Robertson33:40

But I've decided could I have an endless supply of pen and paper? Ah, no mascara, no earrings. Will you be able to write without your earrings on? Well, I've worked out that I can make a kind of mascara because if I manage to rub two sticks together, build a fire, I'd get the suit.

Presenter33:57

Yeah, so that's it.

Denise Robertson33:59

So when I see the sh the rescue ship coming over the horizon.

Presenter34:02

Your eyes up.

Presenter34:04

Okay, well we'll give you a pen and paper then, an endless supply of that. And if you had to narrow it down to just one of the disks, which one would you save?

Denise Robertson34:10

Uh

Presenter34:11

Yeah.

Denise Robertson34:11

They all mean a lot to me.

Denise Robertson34:13

But I think

Denise Robertson34:15

Because of what it says, I would take Wonderful World, which it it is, you know, an unbelievably wonderful world.

Presenter34:22

It's here, it's Denise Robertson. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Denise Robertson34:27

It's been a pleasure and a privilege, Kirsty. Thank you.

Presenter35:05

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash radio four.