Eliza Manningham-Buller

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand seven.

Presenter0:27

My castaway this week is Dame Eliza Manningham Buller, and if the name seems unfamiliar, then that's just the way she likes it. She has recently retired from her job as the UK's top spy master, or more correctly, Director General of the Security Service. She led MI5 during a period of unparalleled terrorist threat, taking on a job described as one of the most important in Britain today.

Presenter0:52

She took the helm in the months after Al Qaeda's nine eleven attack in America, and steered the service through a time when the nature of the terrorist threat facing Britain changed enormously, and when new measures were needed to counteract it.

Presenter1:04

She says Our failures are known to all our many successes are only known to a few. We are judged by what we do not know and what we didn't prevent.

Presenter1:14

One of the most important jobs in Britain then, but also one of the most obscured. I should say that this is the very first interview you've ever given. Does it feel strange to be sitting in front of a microphone?

Eliza Manningham-Buller1:25

And I've sat in front of microphones, but the idea of it being broadcast to your listeners seems strange,'cause I've only ever spoken to limited audiences. And usually invited audiences, of course. Usually invited audiences, yeah.

Presenter1:36

Yes, carefully selected audiences.

Presenter1:39

So for more than three decades, then you were very good at keeping shtum. Has it felt like an odd way to live your life so privately?

Eliza Manningham-Buller1:48

Not really. I used to say that I worked in um personnel.

Eliza Manningham-Buller1:52

And that was a great turn off. People never asked you any questions about that. I did actually work there for a bit, but not for the decades that I pretended I did.

Presenter2:01

And what about the general public's perception of the job that the security services do? I mean, what do we you know, we turn on the telly, we watch spooks, and we think, well, I suppose it must be a bit like that,'cause I I don't know what it really is like.

Eliza Manningham-Buller2:13

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller2:15

Well, it's not like spooks. I mean, in spooks everything is solved by half a dozen people who break endless laws to achieve their results, which they achieve in one episode. Whereas for us, it's usually much longer, hard grind, and we have far too many things to do at the same time rather than just one. Do you get cheesed off when you watch Books? I mean, do you watch Books? I don't watch like Books.

Presenter2:40

What diagrams like that?

Eliza Manningham-Buller2:42

I did watch it at the beginning, but when the female officer was dropped into a vat of boiling oil in the first series, I thought I can't bear any more of this. And I think that given that we work strictly within the law, that it's potentially quite damaging

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:01

for the suggestion that we're totally above the law in those sort of programmes.

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:07

Two

Presenter3:07

Provile

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:08

Yeah.

Presenter3:08

And what about spending such a long time I say more than thirty years in a situation of such professional

Presenter3:14

Well, professional paranoia, I might call it. Do you find has that had a corrosive effect on your view of of humankind?

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:21

I mean, I I don't see it as paranoia. There are times when it's very entertaining. I mean, I do remember a a Sunday newspaper saying we routinely

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:32

Investigated vegans, and you say to yourself, you know, why?

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:37

I can remember my father being rather reluctant for me to join the service, um, because he thought you'd always be dealing with the sort of murky side of life.

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:46

But actually I've stayed because it's been

Eliza Manningham-Buller3:50

Incredibly rewarding to be involved with teams who have managed, often unsung,

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:00

To press.

Presenter4:00

Protect the UK in various ways. Did it cause you at any time sleepless nights or moments of uh

Presenter4:06

of wondering why on earth you had were putting yourself through this.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:10

Well, I'd be wrong to say that I haven't had sleepless nights, but actually I sleep pretty well, and I'm not an anxious person. I think if I was, I would have found my job unbearable at times. So actually I'm snoring away quite happily, even if I've got lots of worries, which recur in the morning.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:31

Tell me about your first piece of music, then.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:33

Well, I've chosen a very reflective, peaceful bit of music to start.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:39

It's from The English Sweets by Bach.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:42

And this was given me by the board of GCHQ in Cheltenham.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:47

As a retirement present.

Eliza Manningham-Buller4:49

This is a happy memory of friends at Cheltenham, whose professionalism I very much admire.

Presenter5:43

Angela Hewitt playing the sadder band from Bach's English Suite No. Two in A minor.

Presenter5:48

So, after the attacks in America in 2001, you maintained that it was a case of when rather than if Britain would be attacked. Do you remember?

Presenter5:56

How you heard about the terrorist attacks in London in July of two thousand five?

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:01

Yes, I do. Um I was in my office and of course at the beginning it was news from journalists and I can remember that feeling that I think probably was shared by many of my colleagues of

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:15

He's all heart sinking and knowing.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:18

What a tough day it was going to be. Also.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:21

Obviously the full horror of it wasn't apparent at the beginning.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:25

We'd prepared for it, we'd exercised for it. So the main focus was to.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:30

try and support the police in their investigation of this horrible crime.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:34

And again, we didn't know at the beginning that it was suicide bombers, so we weren't sure there weren't a team of terrorists still out there to be found who had done this and might be going to do a subsequent one.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:46

And I suppose it wasn't till the evening, when I got home quite late, that the emotional impact of that day hit me and probably my colleagues.

Presenter6:56

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller6:57

And to the rest

Presenter6:57

Most of us the idea that people who are born and brought up in this country would act as suicide bombers against their own people seemed until that day

Presenter7:09

Almost unbelievable. Was it something that you expected to happen?

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:13

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:13

Well, we didn't necessarily expect suicide bombing because we felt that the more likely bombing would be so that people could return to do another attack.

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:25

But from a case early in two thousand four.

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:30

Really towards the end of 03, we'd become very concerned about

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:34

Third generation British citizens.

Eliza Manningham-Buller7:37

who were intent on attacking us, and that remains, I believe, you know, a very current concern as well.

Presenter7:45

Not, of course, in the immediate aftermath, but in the months later it emerged that there were these two men, Sadiq Khan and Shuzad Tanwir, who had

Presenter7:55

Certainly come within the scope of investigations that had been ongoing by MI5. There was in the press a huge amount of criticism and in the broadcast.

Speaker 27:58

Yeah.

Speaker 18:01

Okay, okay.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:04

Critical.

Presenter8:06

Media, why if these people were on your radar, if they have been traced, why were they allowed to go on those trains and buses with their bombs?

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:14

How would you reply to that?

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:16

I I think it's difficult for me to comment in any detail because the Parliamentary Committee, the Intelligence and Security Committee, is

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:22

is looking at this further.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:25

I can't say.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:27

absolutely categorically that

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:29

we should have made

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:32

All the decisions we made.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:34

But what I do say is that

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:36

It's an unreasonable expectation of a security service.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:40

that we're big enough and have resources enough.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:43

to anticipate.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:45

A year before it happens, what anybody who we happen to see in the margin of investigation when there's many, many people we're looking at.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:53

We'll do a year later.

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:55

But I think that's really all I can say because

Eliza Manningham-Buller8:59

I do think it's right that there is that sort of scrutiny, because we we have to work to the highest standards.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:06

But there are there are too many people.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:09

with this sort of intention in the UK for us to be confident, as no service could be confident, of stopping one hundred percent.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:18

We've stopped a very

Presenter9:18

Griffs

Presenter9:19

Very

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:20

Yeah.

Presenter9:20

Many.

Presenter9:21

I mean broadly, we're talking here into the thousands. You're saying maybe as many as sixteen hundred people.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:24

As many as 1600.

Presenter9:27

Um

Presenter9:28

You left the service a year before the statutory retirement age. Again, there was huge speculation, as people will speculate, that you chose to step down from your post because of the pressure and because of the fact that people were criticising the service for not doing its job properly. Is that the case?

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:47

No. I decided well before the July events.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:52

That by the time I actually retired, I would have been in one of the top two jobs for a decade.

Eliza Manningham-Buller9:59

And I made the decision soon after I was appointed when I would retire.

Eliza Manningham-Buller10:04

And I stuck to it. So it wasn't because I was frightened of the criticism. In fact, I I wished that the criticism and the end of the trial, which then led to the criticism, had happened while I was still there, so that I could have defended the service. And then when I left, it could have sort of gone with me. But it was the right decision to go when I did, and I'm happy with it.

Eliza Manningham-Buller10:25

Tell me about your next piece of music, then.

Presenter10:27

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller10:28

I love opera, and I but I wanted to choose some music that involves singing, some classical music, and I've chosen the Kyrie from Mozart's Requiem. It's a piece of music that I think is extremely beautiful.

Presenter11:41

The Kirier from Mozart's Requiem, sung by Lesare Florissant. I've not read a single profile of you that doesn't describe you as both formidable and determined.

Presenter11:52

Can we spool back to the young Eliza? Was she formidable and determined?

Eliza Manningham-Buller11:56

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller11:57

I fear I was, yes. My mother kept all my school reports, which is a humiliating thing really to do.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:04

And there was one when I was

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:07

About four.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:08

which said

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:10

Elizabeth,'cause that's my full name.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:12

is trying hard not to tell everybody what to do all of the time.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:17

And I I fear that

Presenter12:18

Sir I was always quite determined, I think. You were brought up in a family where public service was a way of life. Your father had been Harold Macmillan's attorney general went on to be Lord Chancellor. Did did he engage you in political conversation when you were a youngster?

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:32

Yes, I mean it was it was very much part of our household and and I can remember the fifty-nine election.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:38

and every night he would do four speeches in a village hall.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:44

And there'd be heckling, and there'd be booing, and there'd be

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:49

A great feeling of vitality and excitement, and I loved it. You found out much later on that your mother, before she had children.

Presenter12:56

Do you have children?

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:57

Um

Presenter12:57

No, she had

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:57

Uh

Presenter12:58

Two elder children.

Eliza Manningham-Buller12:59

Yeah.

Presenter13:00

But but not us, not me.

Presenter13:02

She played this, I mean, not just intriguing, but actually vital role, very much behind the scenes. I mean, it was terribly secret at the time.

Speaker 213:06

Uh

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:09

Yeah.

Presenter13:10

In World War II.

Speaker 213:12

Of that.

Presenter13:12

That

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:12

Well she she presented herself as an eccentric woman breeding pigeons.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:17

In fact, what she was doing was training carrier pigeons to bring back intelligence from largely occupied France and Germany.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:25

and her pigeons would be dropped.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:28

in wicker baskets with little and parachutes, and they'd be picked up by somebody and sent home to her with a message round their ankle.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:36

And one of them got the Dicken Medal, which is a medal you get for animals doing things bravely in war.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:44

And one of them is a reportedly brought back information confirming.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:48

Penamunda, where the V-two bomb was being.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:51

Uh manufactured.

Eliza Manningham-Buller13:53

And my mother never talked about it, because who knows, we might need to use pigeons again.

Presenter13:58

Tell me about your next piece of music, then.

Eliza Manningham-Buller14:01

Well, the next piece of music is a result of my eldest step granddaughter trying to bring my husband and I into the

Eliza Manningham-Buller14:10

21st century by introducing white stripes.

Eliza Manningham-Buller14:14

which we are both now very keen on, to everybody's surprise, and I've just chosen one from their album Elephant.

Eliza Manningham-Buller14:20

I just don't know what to do with myself. I might say not true of me. I've always got too much to do.

Speaker 214:24

I just don't know what to do with myself.

Speaker 214:31

I don't know what to do with myself.

Speaker 214:40

Before two

Speaker 214:45

Everything with you, and now that we're through.

Speaker 214:50

I just don't know what to do

Presenter14:55

I just don't know what to do with myself, the white stripes, and you were careful to say there that's not the case. Now you've retired, you've al you've always got too much to do. Um you were at Bennandon, and then you went on to Oxford, where you read English. How did you find your time at Oxford?

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:08

I had a wonderful time. I was doing quite a lot of acting and I was going to parties.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:13

And I did a bit of work, but when I look back on it I'm quite ashamed of how little I did.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:18

I did enough to get by.

Presenter15:19

Um

Presenter15:20

I can't imagine you're going to answer this question, but how were you recruited to MI Phi?

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:26

I can answer it, but it's um a bit humiliating really, because I met someone dear at a drinks party, the person I met.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:34

said why don't you go and talk to a friend of mine who

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:38

is in the Ministry of Defence and it went on from there. So you thought you were going to do some secret work but you were pretty hazy about what it wa.

Presenter15:41

Two.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:45

Yeah.

Presenter15:45

And in those early days, did you tell your family what you were doing? Did anyone know what you were doing? My parents knew.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:49

My parents

Presenter15:51

But that was all. You said earlier that your father tried to dissuade you.

Eliza Manningham-Buller15:54

He thought it was a bit murky. Remember he'd done the first inquiry into the Profumo affair before Lord Denning, and he thought that the whole espionage and counter espionage business was slightly sordid, which to a degree he was right. But at the same time he thought it was necessary and he thought it was right that

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:16

A properly ordered service existed to deal with these covertly organised threats.

Presenter16:22

Is it exciting? I mean, you know, we were talking about the ridiculousness of the way the the media in German, on on film, portrays your work. But when you were a young person working in counter espionage, did was there a thrill to it?

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:34

Oh yes.

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:35

There's a lot of routine, slow, painstaking, thorough graft and grind.

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:44

But despite my father's apprehension that it would there'd be lots of horrible things to deal with.

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:52

And there have been, you know, being at Lockby, for example, the shock and horror of that.

Eliza Manningham-Buller16:57

At the same time, there's been a lot of rewards and working with people who are committed and creative.

Eliza Manningham-Buller17:03

is very rewarding and that's what I miss. The only thing I really miss are my colleagues.

Eliza Manningham-Buller17:10

Tell me about your next piece of music, then.

Eliza Manningham-Buller17:13

This is really to represent me in the sixties. The choice was between the Rolling Stones and The Beatles. And I've chosen the Rolling Stones because I always felt they had a bit more edge and a bit more

Eliza Manningham-Buller17:28

Excitement really than the Beatles in their early days. Okay, you're right.

Presenter17:32

Okay, yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller17:34

Um street fighting man.

Speaker 217:41

They'll starve my solution.

Speaker 217:48

I'm the one down for you.

Speaker 217:51

Set the same for the rock full thing

Speaker 217:55

Come to sleep at London Town. There's got no place for sick on me

Presenter18:06

The Rolling Stones and Street Fighting Man. Sir Eliza Manningham Buller, when you joined we were saying it was mid seventies, M I five, you must have been one of very few women.

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:16

There were a lot of women, but they were all in very junior roles.

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:20

You were not allowed, for example, to go out and recruit agents, human sources, because the view was that no Russian or

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:28

Arable

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:29

Anybody really would want to work for a woman.

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:31

And

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:32

That changed.

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:34

Quite rightly.

Presenter18:35

Oleg Gordievsky, who at one time was the deputy head of the KGB working out with the Soviet embassy in London.

Presenter18:42

He described your appointment as the best news for the service in a decade. I mean, he had very good reason to praise you, didn't he? You were one of only a handful of people who actually knew that he was a double agent in the nineteen eighties.

Eliza Manningham-Buller18:54

It was very nice that he made those comments on me and he's a he's someone I admire very much because he believed that the Soviet system was rotten.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:03

and offered to work for the British, and worked at great risk to his life.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:07

For a long time.

Presenter19:08

Afterwards he said that it was your discretion that helped to save his life.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:12

Well, I I think it was a generous comment by him, but it was actually the discretion of a number of people who were trusted.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:21

to protect him.

Presenter19:21

I mean, his point there was that one of your colleagues, a man whose name will be familiar to people, Michael Bettany.

Presenter19:28

Was passing information on to the KGB. If you had mentioned within your office or within the

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:30

On to the

Presenter19:35

The general staff that you came into contact with.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:37

PS

Presenter19:37

Gordieski's role, then that would have been the end of him.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:39

Yeah, which

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:40

Yes, Gordievsky would have been.

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:44

tortured and killed, but there are people today

Eliza Manningham-Buller19:48

In terrorist groups who are in exactly the same position. So it's intrinsic in the job that if there's an agent who's willing to work for us, that the ultimate important thing is to protect them. How did you

Presenter20:03

Do you feel when you find out that uh Bettany had been selling secrets to the KGB?

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:09

Actually, he didn't manage to sell them. They didn't buy them. He tried to sell them. He tried to sell them. He tried to.

Presenter20:12

He tried to sell them.

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:15

Um a great sense of betrayal. Um

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:20

The the worst bit was actually before we discovered it was him, when we knew there was a traitor, but we didn't know who it was. And I can remember that very clearly, getting in the lift and looking at the people in the lift and wondering.

Speaker 120:24

I didn't know.

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:31

which of your trusted colleagues it was. And that was that was a b the worst time of my career in the service.

Presenter20:40

That must be an incredibly unnerving environment to work.

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:42

Yeah.

Presenter20:43

Yeah.

Presenter20:45

But we found him.

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:47

What have you chosen as your next piece of music? I've chosen the beginning of the Schubert string quintet and.

Eliza Manningham-Buller20:54

It just is the most special bit of chamber music I know.

Presenter21:56

The opening of Schubert's string quintet in C performed by the Lindsay Quartet with Douglas Cummings.

Presenter22:02

As we talk about your work, it's very difficult to imagine that one has any sort of life outside of work. I mean, were you managing at around about this time to have a

Presenter22:12

Another life, or did you just go home and go to sleep?

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:16

Um, no, I I I I got married in in ninety one.

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:20

And I did have a a social life, a cultural life. Yeah. Then

Presenter22:24

Still do. H how soon was it that you told the man who was going to become your husband the job that you did?

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:31

Well some of the press um had him uh not knowing this when we got married, which was of course completely untrue. As soon as I got to know him well, he knew what I did.

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:42

And how did he react?

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:44

He didn't run

Presenter22:44

What?

Presenter22:46

Um, your father died then more than twenty years ago, but your mother died relatively recently. It was in two thousand four.

Presenter22:54

She saw you reach these incredibly elevated positions. What did she make of it?

Eliza Manningham-Buller22:58

She was very proud and and pleased and every time there was a a a mention of me in the press she sort of read it avidly and uh

Eliza Manningham-Buller23:06

I was glad that she was aware of it before she died.

Presenter23:10

Because it gave her great pleasure. The the fascinating story that you told us about her and the the carrier pigeons, do you think there was a tiny somehow a tiny seed sown within the family of the fact that uh we're quite good at this, you know, this December. I don't think so. I think

Eliza Manningham-Buller23:22

No, it's deceptive.

Eliza Manningham-Buller23:25

I think it's much more public service. I've always been spurred on not by making money, but by doing something in the public service. Tell me about your next piece of music then.

Eliza Manningham-Buller23:37

Well, this is an unusual choice. It's the Sowetto String Quartet. And I went to South Africa about a year after Mandela came to power. And I found it a very extraordinary experience meeting

Eliza Manningham-Buller23:52

The A and C people who were working with the former security service people to create a new security service.

Eliza Manningham-Buller24:01

And apparently, really working together, although recently deadly enemies. And I find it very.

Eliza Manningham-Buller24:09

interesting, inspirational and

Eliza Manningham-Buller24:11

When the Minister of Intelligence, who had been in exile in London during apartheid.

Eliza Manningham-Buller24:17

Gave me this piece of music. I found it and find it.

Eliza Manningham-Buller24:22

wonderfully joyful and quite addictive.

Presenter24:52

the Soweto String Quartet and Millennia. Let's talk for a minute about the nature of the threat that terrorism poses now. Of course, when we look at structures like the former Soviet Union and indeed the IRA, they are structures.

Presenter25:08

The threat that faces Britain today is is far from that. I mean, you've described it in in the past very aptly as like almost a a piece of knitting that once you touch it it starts to unravel in your hands. Explore that a bit more for us.

Eliza Manningham-Buller25:21

Uh

Eliza Manningham-Buller25:22

There is some structure at the top of the organization, at the top of al-Qaeda, but

Eliza Manningham-Buller25:27

There isn't her.

Eliza Manningham-Buller25:29

organization that that is you you can say, well, I know about this bit, I have intelligence on this bit, I need to concentrate on that bit. It's much more diffuse and therefore it's a much more complex intelligence target for my colleagues in the security and intelligence agencies.

Presenter25:47

And the lack of intelligence from radical Muslim organizations must stem surely in some part from.

Presenter25:53

the lack of intelligence within those communities. Those are communities that

Eliza Manningham-Buller25:57

You're assuming there is a lack of intelligence.

Eliza Manningham-Buller26:01

There is there is a great deal of intelligence on this subject, and more every day.

Eliza Manningham-Buller26:05

since nine eleven and before.

Eliza Manningham-Buller26:08

There had been an enormous effort to collect more intelligence.

Eliza Manningham-Buller26:13

and to build up a picture both of what was happening in the United Kingdom and what was happening around the world.

Eliza Manningham-Buller26:20

There is an enormous amount of intelligence. The difficulty is is what you take seriously, what you discard, and what are the gaps that you need to concentrate on filling. And if you've got a very diffuse and unstructured organisation, it's quite hard to know where the gaps are. Let's talk then about

Presenter26:39

well, it's called, isn't it, the war on terror, for want of a better phrase, and the war in Iraq then. Just before the war in Iraq, you were part of the Joint Intelligence Committee that issued a report saying that al Qaeda and associated groups continued to

Presenter26:54

represent by far the greatest terrorist threat to Western interests, a threat that would be, and I'm quoting here, heightened by military action against Iraq. Why do you think that that very direct

Presenter27:09

Warning that you gave was not given more consideration by politicians.

Eliza Manningham-Buller27:17

I don't know the degree of consideration it was given by politicians.

Eliza Manningham-Buller27:21

But it was right that the Joint Intelligence Committee made that assessment, and it's important that the committee continues to give dispassionate advice on the best judgment of the information available to it.

Presenter27:35

Were you surprised they didn't take more notice of it?

Eliza Manningham-Buller27:39

As I said, Kirsty, I I don't know whether they

Eliza Manningham-Buller27:43

What notice was taken of it? Um you can take notice of something and still decide to do what you think you wish to do.

Eliza Manningham-Buller27:51

which is what I presume happened.

Presenter27:53

We are

Presenter27:54

consistently told by our politicians, though, that they were doing something to fight the war on terror as it affected the West. In fact, by the people who should know best, they were being told that it would do precisely the opposite thing. It would make the likelihood of terrorist attacks on British and American soil worse.

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:15

But I think

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:19

The rail issue was the

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:22

suggestion, particularly in America, that

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:25

Iraq had something to do with nine-eleven, which is completely false.

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:30

And I think that confusion.

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:34

um it's been unhelpful in a number of ways.

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:38

Yeah.

Presenter28:38

Very diplomatic language. Were you feeling that diplomatic at the time?

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:42

Um

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:44

I'm not comfortable in talking about anything that might be interpreted as um

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:50

criticizing government policy. The advice I gave was given in private. Whoever is the government of the day, and I've worked for for more than one government,

Eliza Manningham-Buller28:58

Does deserve that its public servants give it advice.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:04

In private, and will not subsequently write their memoirs explaining.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:10

What they felt and what they thought and what those debates were. That's something I believe. And you won't be writing your memoirs? No, certainly not.

Presenter29:18

Present.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:19

I think it would be not only wrong but unproductive and unsellable.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:26

Tell me about your next piece of music, then.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:29

When I got married, my husband introduced me to Ella Fitzgerald, who I had hardly come across, and I love her because she can do anything with her voice.

Eliza Manningham-Buller29:39

And I've chosen a song by Kell Porter, which is one of my favourites.

Speaker 129:44

Do I love you, do I? Oh my dear, it's so easy to see.

Speaker 129:56

Don't you know what I do? Don't I show you what I do, Just as you love

Presenter30:10

Ella Fitzgerald and Do I Love You? You've spoken a lot during our exchange about the working within the law, the legality of what the service does, of what MI5 does. What about dealing with intelligence that's been gathered abroad? I mean, much more recently there has been, as I understand, much more cooperation between our intelligence services and those from other countries. Does it matter to you the methods used by foreign agencies to get information?

Eliza Manningham-Buller30:39

Of course it does. It matters within the law, and it matters ethically anyway.

Eliza Manningham-Buller30:43

We

Eliza Manningham-Buller30:45

seek legal advice. We have lots of lawyers in the service. And we have a system whereby anybody who has a sort of ethical concern or a concern about the propriety of doing something

Eliza Manningham-Buller30:57

Is very strongly encouraged both within the service to raise it.

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:02

And externally there is an external counsellor with whom it can also be raised.

Presenter31:07

If lives on British soil, though, may be saved by turning a blind eye to the possibility that foreign detainees have been tortured.

Presenter31:15

Is that just the way it is? Do you have to take that one on the chin? Are you willing to take that one on the chin?

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:21

Well, the difficulty, and it's been a difficulty all along, is that you don't

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:26

always know the circumstances in which the information has come to you. In fact, you very rarely do. You're given the information.

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:33

And it may come from a country where you know the record of human rights is.

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:39

unacceptable. But if it might save British lives, you it's difficult then to say, well, I'm going to ignore it. It's all a question of what you do with it. But it's this is a tricky and difficult area because

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:53

You know, what we're about is protecting democracy, and we hope to operate to the highest ethical standards.

Eliza Manningham-Buller31:59

Yeah. Um

Presenter31:59

Throughout us chatting you've used we again, again, again, and you've only been out of the job for a matter of a few months. It seems you still feel very, very strongly connected with it. Understandable given the amount of your life you gave over to it. Is that the case?

Eliza Manningham-Buller32:17

Yes, and I suppose I should be saying they, but what I'm not saying is I, because I think that the things that the service achieved

Eliza Manningham-Buller32:26

and continues to achieve.

Eliza Manningham-Buller32:28

are very much done as a result of team effort, and I found that tremendously stimulating and admirable.

Presenter32:37

How much do you miss that pulse of adrenaline running through your life, of knowing that you are wired in to the very heart of what is happening in the world?

Presenter32:47

Yeah.

Eliza Manningham-Buller32:47

I knew that I would have a adrenaline cold turkey when I stopped, and I knew that to a degree it would feel a little bit like bereavement.

Eliza Manningham-Buller32:56

But I also

Eliza Manningham-Buller33:00

don't value those who look backwards. And I think I've moved on. And in due course, if possibilities come up for further employment where I could contribute in a different way, I'll probably take them.

Eliza Manningham-Buller33:20

Tell me about your final piece of music then. Well, it's terribly difficult to decide what to choose and

Eliza Manningham-Buller33:26

I was very torn between choosing Marla, which is a new obsession.

Eliza Manningham-Buller33:31

But I have actually chosen the end of Beethoven's Symphony No. Seven, because this was one of the first pieces of classical music.

Eliza Manningham-Buller33:39

that I fell in love with, and I couldn't go to my desert island without some Beethoven.

Presenter34:45

Part of the final movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. seven in A major, performed by the Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Carlos Kleiber. So I will give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take on to this island with you, Eliza. What other book will you take?

Eliza Manningham-Buller34:59

I'll take The Rattle Bag, which is an anthology of poetry by selected by Seamus Heaney and Ted Hughes. As you're going through it you find this sort of wonderful random

Eliza Manningham-Buller35:11

co-location of poems which uh I really enjoy.

Eliza Manningham-Buller35:14

And a little luxury to make life

Presenter35:16

More bearable. What would you aspire?

Eliza Manningham-Buller35:18

Well, I asked my uh one of my grandsons, my step-grandsons, if I could take my iPod, and he firmly told me that would be cheating. So

Eliza Manningham-Buller35:26

I think I'm just going to take a a large supply of pencils and pens, so that at least um when I finish reading the Bible and Shakespeare and my poetry and listening to my music, I can scribble away happily.

Presenter35:40

Now, if the waves were to threaten to wash away the music and you had to save one, what's the one disc that you would save?

Presenter35:47

Uh the Schubert String Quintet.

Presenter35:50

Dame Eliza Manning and Buller, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Presenter36:03

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Speaker 236:52

Uh