Lord Joffe

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand seven.

Presenter0:27

My castaway this week is Joel Joffey. For many years he was the chairman of Oxfam. Before that he set up a hugely successful insurance company. Most recently he's been campaigning for terminally ill people to have the right to die.

Presenter0:41

But the career in which he had the greatest impact is the one he was forced to give up more than forty years ago, the law.

Presenter0:48

In nineteen sixty three, Joel Joffey was a young defence solicitor, so dismayed by the apartheid system of his native South Africa that he was on the brink of emigrating. Then he was persuaded to stay to organise the defence of a group of ANC activists, including Walter Sisulu, Government Beke, and Nelson Mandela. He was the main defence attorney throughout the trial, and was described later by Mandela as the general behind the scenes of our defence. What an extraordinary moment in history to be involved in, Lord Joffey. Can you start by explaining what your best hope was for the defendants?

Lord Joffe1:23

Well, the the trial was uh from the point of view of the defence l lawyers was about saving the lives of these wonderful wonderful people. And that was our main objective, but that was not the main objective of Nelson Mandela and his colleagues. They considered it of secondary importance. The important thing to them was that the grievances and the reasons which drove them to the sort of violence which they initiated.

Lord Joffe1:52

Needed to be brought to the attention of the world, and they wanted to put the government in the dark in the court of world opinion.

Presenter2:00

Nine members of the African National Congress were standing trial. What did you make of them as individuals? You'd had no dealings with them before.

Lord Joffe2:09

I think that the nine members of the African National Congress were the finest people that I had ever met. They actually had such courage, such integrity, and were so committed. And it was the integrity of these people

Lord Joffe2:27

that they weren't in it in any way for their own good, they were there for their people, and it made, of course, an everlasting impression upon me, and it was a great privilege to defend them.

Presenter2:38

Let us talk about the trial in some detail a little later, but let us for a moment just remember that time in February of nineteen ninety, when Nelson Mandela was released after twenty seven years, most of us can remember where we were. I wonder where you were and what occurred to you at the time.

Lord Joffe2:55

Oh, I was glued with my wife Anetta to the television, waiting and waiting and waiting. It was a long wait before he eventually emerged. I was quite convinced that freedom would eventually come to South Africa, but it would probably be in about the year 2020. And I had assumed that all the accused would die in jail. But it was such a moment of joy and happiness and astonishment to see Nelson Mandela walking out. We, of course, will always remember that.

Lord Joffe3:31

Tell me about your first music chore.

Presenter3:32

Yes.

Lord Joffe3:33

Well, my first music choice does go back to my days in South Africa and particularly.

Presenter3:35

Does

Lord Joffe3:41

In the resistance movement, the African National Congress, Nkausi Sekalali Li Afrika, was sung quite frequently, as it is really a type of prayer, and even the apartheid government could not really object to it. But the defining moment was at the inauguration of Nelson Mandela as President of South Africa. And he had been sworn in. And then the a flight of South African Defence Force swooped low over the stadium and one was a bit nervous whether they're coming to bomb the place or pay tribute to Mandela and then

Lord Joffe4:20

the the song the African National Congress song, the new South African anthem was sung. And at that particular stage it was almost a defining moment. The old had gone by and there was this new wonderful country with this wonderful national anthem.

Speaker 44:39

Gosi si ke le fika balu pakamisu bangalwayo

Presenter4:47

Are you

Presenter4:49

Try

Speaker 44:53

Cosi si que le la tina lusapol.

Presenter5:05

The women of the Lalabashi singing Cose Sikalele Afrika. You were born Jill Joffey then in nineteen thirty two in Johannesburg. In those early years, family life, what what was it like? What were your mother and father like?

Lord Joffe5:17

Well, my mother was born in Palestine and came over to South Africa when she was about 19. Met my father, who had been born in Lithuania. They were ill-suited, as it happened. And I don't think they had any deep thoughts at all. They had children to bring up, and my father had a business to worry, and he did worry a great deal to such an extent that he was depressed most of the time and didn't say very much. So we had a not unhappy childhood, but I think uneventful would be the word. And it was a Jewish childhood.

Presenter5:49

Household were the observant Jews.

Lord Joffe5:51

They in fact my grand my grandfather had uh really been responsible for the start of the uh Reform Jewish uh congregation in South Africa, so they used to go to synagogue uh and uh used to send me there regularly until I was thirteen and had my b'mitzvah, from which date I never ever returned.

Presenter6:13

I mean, when you were growing up then, um racial discrimination was etched into South African daily life, but it it wasn't yet adopted officially as part of the regime. What did you make of it? I mean, obviously you would have had black servants, you would have seen black people doing very lowly paid jobs and being regarded very badly.

Lord Joffe6:30

When you were a child, you you don't tend to think about these issues. You take it as that's what the position is. And one's only direct concern was when you saw a black person being beaten up or being badly treated, but you didn't see uh I I didn't see so much of that. I was stuck in a boarding school from when I was nine and really was out of touch with the real world.

Presenter6:55

Is it true though? I read that you used to give your pocket money to the black servants. Is that true?

Lord Joffe7:01

Well, I I might have, but it wasn't much pocket money.

Lord Joffe7:05

Tell me About your next piece of music? My next piece uh arose from my aunt, who was my godmother, deciding that coming from a musical family, I she would teach me to sing.

Lord Joffe7:17

To her dismay, she learned that actually I was both tone deaf and unable to hold a tune. And the song she had chosen to launch me into my musical career was Havanagila, which had been composed by my grandfather when he was in Palestine. He was perhaps the leading musicologist, Jewish musicologist of his time.

Lord Joffe7:44

Now when I hear Havana Geela, it brings me back to my early days when I first confronted how I wished I had other talents, which unfortunately I did not.

Speaker 48:12

Le da da da da wa da da da da.

Speaker 48:15

Hawa Bernis Meka, Habaleranda, Happa Neranda, Baba Hava Perismeka.

Presenter8:25

The HAVA Negila, sung by Habar Varum. So you were Jewish but sent to a Catholic school as a little boy, where you distinguished yourself, I understand, by being uh beaten fairly frequently. Um why did the teachers feel the need? What were you doing wrong in their eyes?

Lord Joffe8:40

Well, what they they were intent on, our teachers, was really making us remember lots and lots of facts. And if any way you went out of line, you were caned. And I often went out of line and often was, I fear, a bit of a disturbing element, because I reacted against irrational discipline. And so I was much much punished.

Presenter9:04

Um it's interesting that from a very young age you were happy to rub up against authority or to confront authority head on. Where do you think that spirit came from?

Lord Joffe9:15

I have no no idea. I thought I was just a difficult child. They always used to tell me that.

Presenter9:21

But you've proved to be quite a difficult adult, too, in so far as you are always uh you seem to be most comfortable when you're challenging things. Is that where you feel most at home, when you're stating authority in the eye and saying, Hold on a minute?

Lord Joffe9:33

No, I I feel most at home when things are going smoothly, but if somebody interrupts the smoothness with irrational conduct, I do tend to react against that.

Presenter9:43

You went on then to study law at university. You said that that was really the turning point for you in your education. What happened when you were studying law?

Lord Joffe9:52

I don't think I particularly enjoyed my legal studies. It was hard work. And when I used to work, you were articled in those days. So you worked the whole day in a law office and in the evening did your law. So it was hard work. But when I was articled to this firm of lawyers, I started building up a legal aid practice within the firm. And it just seemed a natural thing to do. People needed to be represented and I could represent them even if they couldn't pay me or the firm any money. And so I built up a fairly large legal aid practice without the partners knowing. So money was not an important relevant objective.

Presenter10:30

Uh how did you get by then? I mean, how did your legal firms get by and how did your practice manage if you weren't bringing in the the bringing home the bacon?

Lord Joffe10:37

Well, occasionally you had a client who could pay in a commercial matter, and so that would uh fund the the more important legal work, which was about justice.

Presenter10:48

Tell me about your next track.

Lord Joffe10:50

When I was at university, having realized that I could not ever get a deep understanding of music, I thought I ought to try and I bought a number of on a random basis I bought a number of records and amongst them happily was Beethoven's violin concerta and I played it many times and really although I didn't understand the structure or anything, the depth of the piece, I liked it and played it often and that's why I'd like to play it again today.

Presenter12:22

Itzhak Paulman, playing part of the final movement of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D. Now, a great many um members of the ANC, the leaders of the ANC by that time, had had been arrested and were awaiting trial when you became involved. Can you explain to me how you became involved in the cases of of these men that were arrested?

Lord Joffe12:41

The accused, the people arrested at Ravonia included a man called Harold Walpy, who had worked with his brother-in-law called James Cantor.

Lord Joffe12:54

with whom I had been in partnership for a while.

Lord Joffe12:57

And um Harold Walpy managed to escape.

Lord Joffe13:00

From the police, and eventually found his way to England. And the police were so angry, the special branch, at losing a prime suspect, that they arrested his brother-in-law, the partner in the firm, called James Cantor. Because James Cantor had been arrested, I went to wind up his practice. And then the families of the accused came to see me. Winnie Mandela came to see me, and Hilda Bernstein and others, and said, If our husbands get charged, will you handle the case? And I said, Yes, I'd be glad to do that.

Presenter13:35

And when was the first time that you actually met Nelson, Mandela?

Lord Joffe13:39

And the first time I met him was in the consulting room in Pretoria Jail.

Lord Joffe13:44

And they had flown Nelson Mandela down from Robin Island, where he is already serving a sentence, to be charged with the other accused. The door opened, and in came Nelson Mandela in typical South African prison garb for black people. Black people were only allowed to wear short trousers, white people could wear long trousers. And he came in with sandals and a torn shirt. And he walked into that room totally unself-conscious and just assumed control. And we all sat back and waited to be told what we should be doing.

Presenter14:22

And what about the circumstances in which you were allowed to deal with your clients? W were you allowed to be in a room alone with them? Were I mean, w were the rooms bugged? W how did it work?

Lord Joffe14:32

There were various problems we had to overcome. We used to see them in a small room, interview room, wi within the prison, with jailers marching up, up and down outside. The door was left open, but we knew that the room was almost certainly bugged. And so we had to devise a code for

Lord Joffe14:52

Talking to our clients. And so we would say, for example, was and then we'd write out a name and hand it to Nelson Mandela, was he there at this particular meeting? Which isn't an easy way to conduct your interviews. And then Nelson Mandela, or whoever it was, would take the piece of paper and burn it.

Speaker 214:59

I mean

Lord Joffe15:13

in a little ashtray which happened to be there.

Presenter15:17

What about your personal circumstances, your family circumstances? I mean, was your family life in essence put to one side when you took on the case?

Lord Joffe15:24

It it was very difficult for my wife, Anetta. I I couldn't tell her what I was really doing and what was being said because it would be dangerous for her to have information in case she was picked up sometime. And so it i it was a hard time for her actually. And so family life was difficult for her, for me immersed in my work, that uh it it wasn't such a problem.

Presenter15:51

Were you yourself ever personally put under any sort of um pressure or suggested violence by the authorities?

Lord Joffe15:59

No, uh b basically the worst that happened to me a number of hate calls on the telephone saying we're gonna get you and um it was clear once telephone was trapped and there was normally a a special bronze policeman posted outside my office. But um compared to what happened to other people I was very lightly treated.

Presenter16:19

But you didn't ever think, given that you had a wife and young family, what on earth am I doing? I'd be better off out of this.

Lord Joffe16:24

Um I should have thought of that, but uh but but uh once you get involved in a trial you're so focussed that you tend unfairly to assume that your family will take care of itself. Tell me about your fourth choice.

Lord Joffe16:40

Yes, my fourth choice is There But for Fortune. Joan Bay sings it, and to me it it really resonates because I found my life has been dictated by chance and being in the right place at the right time. And I haven't got a great deal of talent, but I have a certain talent for good luck. And this song actually conveys how dependent you are on fortune and that life could have been very different if you did not have this fortune.

Speaker 417:12

Show me the hobo who sleeps out in the rain

Speaker 417:20

And I'll show you young man.

Speaker 417:25

With so many reasons why

Speaker 417:30

There but for fortune.

Speaker 417:34

Go you

Presenter17:40

Joan Baez and They're But for Fortune. So tell us, then, Joel Joffey, what happened at the end of this momentous trial?

Lord Joffe17:48

Well, the real focal point, the most dramatic part of the trial was Nelson Mandela's speech to the court from the dark. And I've got the words here. He he made so clear his own position. What he said was, During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to the struggle of the African people. I fought against white domination and I fought against black domination.

Lord Joffe18:11

I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society, in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. And then he stopped and looked the judge straight in the eye, and there was a pause, and he said It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve, but if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

Lord Joffe18:36

And there was an incredible silence which carried on for about

Lord Joffe18:40

A minute or so.

Lord Joffe18:42

And it was this question of would he be sentenced to death or not which was on all our minds. We could often not sleep actually.

Lord Joffe18:51

And um

Lord Joffe18:52

We got to court on the day sentence was to be passed.

Lord Joffe18:56

There were cordons all around Pretoria, but somehow a large number of black people managed to get through to the court and were standing outside singing, and we struggled into the court, which was packed with policemen.

Lord Joffe19:09

And the judge came in, sort of marched in, and he simply said, I've decided not to impose the death penalty, but that's the only leniency I can allow myself. And all the accused will be sentenced to life imprisonment. And then he marched out and he mumbled and the crowd, no one there really knew what the sentence was.

Presenter19:30

And how was it passed through the courtroom? How did they line up it?

Lord Joffe19:32

Basically what then happened is Dennis Goldberg, accused number three, turned around, put his hand in the air, and shouted to his old mothers at the back of the corps, It's life, it's life, it's life for living

Lord Joffe19:45

and there was general actually happiness and joy in the court. I think there was a feeling almost that they had done their job, which was to inspire their people and to tell the world what conditions really were like in South Africa and why they had to change.

Presenter20:04

Tell me about your next piece of music.

Lord Joffe20:06

When I left South Africa and flew to England, when the plane was crossing England, I looked out of the window and there was this wonderful green countryside which looked so tranquil compared to the harsh South African high field. And I felt it really made an enormous impression upon me.

Lord Joffe20:29

And since then, whenever Jerusalem is sung at the last night of the proms, it fills me with a sense of tremendous patriotism towards this country. And so that is my choice.

Presenter21:43

The B B C singers and Jerusalem chosen Joel Joffey, as you said, because in the two years after the trial, nineteen sixty five, I think it was, when you flew in across the green and pleasant land of England, you realized you were in a very different place from the parched and dry and edgy South Africa. What did you make of Britain when you arrived?

Lord Joffe22:00

Oh, I think what I immediately loved about England was the tolerance, the sense of tolerance, and it was a country where freedom prevailed. It was the sort of mother of democracy. All these things took on meaning when you came to England.

Presenter22:14

Well, as you say, you have always been a very hard worker, and your talent for working hard led you to build up this insurance company, a little organization that came to be known by the name of Allied Dunbar. I mean, it was incredibly successful, incredibly quickly. How come?

Lord Joffe22:30

There were a number of factors. The main one in my view was our very talented chief executive, Nelson Mark Weinberg, immensely creative. We pioneered new methods and largely they were his ideas. But I actually worked out that it was because the in those days England was not a competitive country.

Presenter22:51

I mean, you quickly did what very few successful directors on the boards of companies do. You tried to persuade Ally Dunbar to give away a fair chunk of its money. What was the thinking behind that, and did you manage it?

Lord Joffe23:03

Oh yes, uh we set up a a charitable trust and and gave a percentage of our profits to this charitable trust. And and I think it was natural for me. I was always unhappy at the thought of being in business. I I actually didn't go into business in order to make money in the sense of making uh great wealth. It was actually in order to find a job to support my family.

Lord Joffe23:24

So my main interest was outside the company and in the charitable activities and other other areas which they allowed me to work in. But they were always supportive of what I was doing.

Presenter23:35

Well, you say that on the one hand, but I'm sure, you know, behind closed doors a few of them got a bit hot round the collar. Do you think they ever saw you as a kind of annoying doogooder who would have been better outside the door than in the boardroom?

Lord Joffe23:47

I think that they they felt that board meetings could more properly be run without having concerns about charitable giving. I used to prepare the agenda for board meetings. But but what it was, my my colleagues always supported me and treated me very generously.

Presenter24:06

Tell me about your next piece of music, the sixth piece of music.

Lord Joffe24:09

I loved musicals. I remember the first musical I ever heard was Annie, Get Your Gun, where a sort of second-rate company came to Johannesburg and I was enthralled. My favourite musical has always been My Fair Lady, which I find absolutely brilliant. And in it is a song called Without You, and it actually resonates with me because one of my weak points, many weak points, is that actually I don't get on well with pompous, self-satisfied people. And this song, if I could sing, is the sort of thing I would like to sing about them.

Speaker 424:43

There'll be spring every year without you England still will be here without you There'll be fruit on the tree and ashore by the sea There'll be crumpets and tea without you Art and music will thrive without you Somehow Keats will survive without you And there still will be rain on that plain down in Spain Even that will remain without you

Presenter25:12

Julie Andrews, singing Without You from the London cast recording of My Fair Lady. So, Lord Joffey, for the past four years of your life you have been dominated with concerns about trying to get a bill passed to allow what we call assisted dying. This is for terminally ill people. What made you initially get involved?

Lord Joffe25:34

Well, um it seemed to me to be a matter of human rights, and I'm a strong believer in personal autonomy and the right of people to make decisions on everything which relates to their life.

Presenter25:47

It excites huge interest and passion on both sides of the argument, of course. I mean, we've had in recent years the case of Diane Pretty, whose husband fought with her through the courts in an agonising and very public battle to try to win the right for her to be helped to die in the closing stages of a very serious illness. She didn't win that right. On the other side, we have people, many people from the disabled lobby, who say that

Presenter26:15

It will encourage a culture where people shall feel the pressure that not just do they have the right to die, but if they don't conform to certain ideals, then they are required to die. There is the pressure that they should exit this world. How do you reply to them?

Lord Joffe26:31

My reply is we recognize that this could theoretically be a problem. We've put in an array of safeguards in the bill to prevent it happening. And the experience in countries like Oregon, in countries like Switzerland and in the Netherlands, where assisted dying or voluntary euthanasia is permitted, shows that this just doesn't happen.

Lord Joffe26:57

We do not wish to impose.

Lord Joffe27:00

Anything on anybody who does not believe it. And so, people who have a faith objection, they have no obligation to actually take advantage of the end-of-life option which we are proposing. And we look at this as alongside palliative care. We strongly support palliative care. It is the right solution for the overwhelming majority of the population. And the people, all of the people who support this bill are caring people and would not support the bill if they felt for a moment that there was a real danger that eventually, somehow or other, the law would be widened to the extent that all you had to do was to arrive at a particular place and say, I want to die.

Presenter27:44

And what about you yourself? You sit opposite me today in apparently rude, good health, with many more decades to live, but can you imagine a time when you yourself would choose at a time and a point where you felt that your life had been lived at its fullest and was no longer enjoyable? Would you make that exit, make that decision yourself?

Lord Joffe28:04

I think one can never be sure what one will do, but I would be very surprised if I was terminal ill and suffering terribly.

Lord Joffe28:13

It would seem to me

Lord Joffe28:15

almost certain that I I would ask for assistance to die. It's like an insurance policy actually, and I can't see how anybody could object to having an end of life option which they could take advantage of if they actually thought it was right for them.

Lord Joffe28:33

Tell me about your seventh choice.

Lord Joffe28:36

My wife and I were were great fans of Joan Byers. This particular song is about overcoming injustice and my sense that actually if people work together on doing things, they can really change the world for the better. And therefore I've chosen We Shall Overcome.

Speaker 428:56

We shall overpower.

Speaker 429:01

We show work on.

Speaker 429:07

We shall soon hold the heart.

Speaker 429:21

I do believe

Presenter29:25

Joan Baez and We Shall Overcome. In preparation for speaking to you, Joel Joffey, I was reading your book about this infamous and extraordinary trial back at the beginning of the sixties, and one of the things that you said in the book was that in the nineteen fifties you yourself thought that not only would apartheid be in place for the rest of your life, but that afterwards it would be impossible for South Africa to find some sort of peace. How do you look upon the situation in South Africa now?

Lord Joffe29:53

I think one starting point in looking at South Africa is to remember that everyone expected it to be a bloody revolution which would cause hatred amongst all the races in the country and instead there was a peaceful transition. I'm very optimistic about South Africa's future. I think as a new generation of non-white people come through with the benefits of education and with an enormous potential which has never been tapped in the past, great things can happen in South Africa, but it won't happen overnight. It'll take decades because if you look at it, you know, from the start of when you education, you need 20 or 30 years to get to your peak.

Presenter30:38

When Mandela was released, were you tempted to go back to to make your home there once again?

Lord Joffe30:44

I would have liked to go back if I thought I could do anything useful. But what is important for South Africa is that the rest of the population, the previously disadvantaged population, should actually develop and take the key positions. And I had another problem about going back to South Africa and that was that Vanetta, my wife, said that if I went back to South Africa I'd go alone.

Presenter31:06

That's quite an incentive to stay in England, I would imagine.

Lord Joffe31:08

I would imagine. Yes, and overriding incentive.

Presenter31:11

And what about Nelson Mandela himself? You stayed in contact with him. It was extraordinary to hear you describe this man that you met in nineteen sixty three, a natural leader, very self possessed, with good humour and a relaxed sense of authority. All of those things seem to be the same things that that we see now. How do you find him now in your dealings?

Lord Joffe31:30

Well, firstly, I don't have many dealings with him. Everybody in the world wants to see Nelson Mandela, and I occasionally do. But my view is he, when he started, at the time of the trial, he was a rugged six-foot powerful man, and perhaps not quite as wise as he is now. The wisdom didn't come through at that stage. The sense of balance was always there, the sense of listening to others. But a nice sense of humour. Whenever I happen to be at a meeting which he's addressing the court, he'll say, I see Joel Joffey over there, who actually sent me to jail for 27 years.

Presenter32:10

The humour's still there.

Lord Joffe32:11

Yeah, but you're

Presenter32:13

Tell me about your final choice today.

Lord Joffe32:15

My final choice is I only came across relatively recently, but I think it's quite magical. It is Richard Burton reading Dylan Thomas in Under Milkwood, and it transports you really when you listen to it. You feel you're in a different place in the middle of this village which he's looking at and describing. I think it's, as I say, I think it's magical.

Speaker 232:41

To begin at the beginning.

Speaker 232:45

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible black, the cobbled streets silent and the hunched, quarters and rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the slow black.

Speaker 232:57

Slow.

Speaker 232:59

Black

Speaker 233:00

Crow black fishing boat bobbing sea

Presenter33:04

Richard Burton, reading part of Dylan Thomas's Under Milkwood, and you were indeed transported listening to that. I could see Joel Joffey. So we come to the part now where I give you the Bible or the Torah and the complete works of Shakespeare. What other book would you like to take?

Lord Joffe33:19

Yes. I think I would take uh Nelson Mandela's autobiography, which would inspire me. Uh if he could live in a cell for twenty seven years, I could live on a desert island for at least that period.

Presenter33:34

And of course, we also allow you a luxury. What might your luxury be?

Lord Joffe33:38

Uh that would be a wind up radio, which would enable me to listen to World Service and to Radio Four, and of course every week at least once to Desert Island Discs.

Presenter33:50

We will uh definitely give you that. And if I was to force you to choose just one of these eight records, which one would you choose?

Lord Joffe33:51

Yeah.

Lord Joffe33:59

It would have to be under milk wood.

Presenter34:02

Joel Joffey Baron Joffey of Liddington's thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Lord Joffe34:07

Thank you, Kista.

Presenter34:15

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.