Katharine Whitehorn

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and five and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Costaway this week is a journalist. For more than thirty-five years, her articles for the Observer newspaper came to be identified with thoughts and behaviour of a new breed of woman, one who could manage everything, career, marriage, children, the lot. Well educated, a series of different schools took her eventually to Cambridge. She arrived via magazines including Picture Post and Woman's Own at The Observer. Here she began to cut her own distinctive style, writing about the things that really mattered to a woman as she struggled to bring order to life's complexities. She famously admitted to being a bit of a slut, fishing dirty clothes out of the laundry basket and wearing them again and keeping her stockings up with an aspirin in her suspender hook. And she taught a whole generation of young people how to cook in a bedsitter. An artful mixture of the trivial and fundamental, she's always presented herself as someone who, although she had it all, knew only too well at what price the possession of such riches came. She is Catherine Whitehorne. You were, Catherine, very much in the vanguard of such women in the mid-twentieth century who held down demanding jobs as well as being married and producing babies. Do you recall

Katharine Whitehorn1:35

Yeah.

Presenter1:38

Designing it that way, or was it something that simply happened to you?

Presenter1:42

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn1:42

No, I always thought I'd have a career, because it that was assumed in my family.

Katharine Whitehorn1:47

I think perhaps they were a bit ahead of their time because my aunt went to Cambridge in the thirties and didn't think it odd because her aunts had been to university before the First World War, so there was no question about earning one's own living.

Katharine Whitehorn2:01

But also, in those days, one absolutely longed to find mister Wright.

Katharine Whitehorn2:06

I never considered them to be alternatives. So you naturally wanted it all, but what you.

Presenter2:10

you wouldn't have realized what it was that you were trend setting.

Katharine Whitehorn2:15

No, I had no notion of that at all. And I think it partly stemmed rather pricelessly from David Astor, who was very Freudian and found it rather difficult to hire women at all, because if they were single and childless, they weren't typical of, and certainly not good for, our readers. And if they did have children, why weren't they home looking after them? And in fact, he hired an absolutely brilliant man called George Seddon, who more or less invented all these women's pages that aren't women's pages, the unisex women's page, that are now all over the world.

Presenter2:47

When you say he invented them, you mean he just gave you your head, or he recognized that the sorts of things you wanted to write about, not absolutely domestic, but not

Katharine Whitehorn2:56

On work. He didn't just give me my head. He invented Shirley Conron to some extent, and Barty Phillips, and quite a lot of others.

Presenter2:56

He seems to

Katharine Whitehorn3:05

And he was terribly good at leaving you alone to do what you could do.

Speaker 33:09

Do.

Katharine Whitehorn3:10

And I went to work originally for home notes, which priceless little folksy paper.

Katharine Whitehorn3:15

And got onto Picture Post, which was, of course, where I did meet Gavin.

Presenter3:20

Gavin Lyle, who of course in the end was a a best-selling thriller writer. You couldn't have done any of it, had it all, this phrase that we're using, if he hadn't been a kind of instinctive new man, could you?

Katharine Whitehorn3:34

He he was a Quaker, and I think that's quite important, because they've al always thought that women were in charge of their own souls, and there was a celebrated occasion.

Katharine Whitehorn3:43

When I having been sacked from Woman's Own, I was still brainwashed by the women's magazines, and I thought I slipper warming was what I ought to be up to.

Katharine Whitehorn3:52

And he finally snapped, and he took me up to the top of Hampstead Heath, and sat me down on a bench, and said, This nonsense must now cease. Get a job And he never, so to speak, let me work. He wanted me to be whatever I could be.

Katharine Whitehorn4:07

Tell me about your first record. Well, the first record says pretty well what he and I were about, though actually we didn't find this song until a good deal later.

Katharine Whitehorn4:17

But Gavin knew where he was going, and I knew where I was going, and it was in the same direction.

Speaker 44:23

Follow me where I go, What I do, who I know, Make it part of you to me, a part of me

Speaker 44:38

Follow me up and down, All the way and all round.

Speaker 44:47

Take my hand and say you'll follow.

Presenter4:52

John Denver and Follow Me. Not only, Catherine Whitehorne, did you establish yourself on The Observer in the 60s with your own column, but you were astonishingly personally honest in that column, which turned out to be trendsetting in itself. You admitted to being a slut quite early on. Well I mean give me a broad definition of what you meant by that. Well

Presenter5:13

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn5:13

I started it by saying, have you ever pulled anything back out of the dirty clothes basket because it had become relatively the cleaner thing? And how many things are there in the wrong room cups in the bedroom and boots in the kitchen? And how many on the floor of the wrong room?

Katharine Whitehorn5:29

And it had the most incredible response. People wrote in and said, Yes, yes, I'm a slut too. I find myself wiping the kitchen table with a kitten and, you know, m my baby's the only one in rice slip with blue nappies, this kind of thing.

Katharine Whitehorn5:44

So it was a relief that they could admit it. I think that was it, because I think up to that point women's journalism had tended to try to tell women how to be perfect. And this is the way you ought to cook, and this is the way you ought to run your house, and so on. And here was somebody actually saying, it's ghastly and we struggle as best we can. Under George Seddon, I was allowed to have a column that was personal, though it wrote about general things. Personal was a way of leading into the general.

Presenter6:11

Okay.

Katharine Whitehorn6:11

Hmm.

Presenter6:11

No one had written about them before. They simply weren't things that

Presenter6:15

I think we're considered to deserve good writing. I think that's the difference, isn't it?

Katharine Whitehorn6:20

Isn't it? It was we were moving out of the days when business news and hard news were the only things that were considered to be important enough for anybody with a brain. And the whole area of human life and feelings and

Katharine Whitehorn6:35

The things that really keep people going wasn't the kind of stuff that got talked about in newspapers until somebody actually knifed somebody or threw their wife down a lift shaft or something. Uh Boop.

Presenter6:46

It did say something about you, that, Colin. That that and again, we come to this thing about having it, or can you do you have to be able to live with quite a bit of chaos in order to manage the two things, the work and the home, and the children and the husband? You need some

Katharine Whitehorn7:03

Something like

Katharine Whitehorn7:04

Very good help, which I had. My own mother was incredibly maternal, and she was there.

Presenter7:10

But you have to at the same time not to mind if things when you get home from work, when you got back from the observer, if things were in the wrong place or not quite done the way you wanted them.

Katharine Whitehorn7:17

Seven

Presenter7:21

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn7:22

I was thankful and astonished if they'd been done at all.

Presenter7:22

I was

Katharine Whitehorn7:25

But David Astor, who was the editor, a great editor of The Observer.

Katharine Whitehorn7:30

allowed me to work at home.

Katharine Whitehorn7:32

All the time my kids were small.

Katharine Whitehorn7:34

I mean, I went into the office for gossip and social life, but work got done at home.

Katharine Whitehorn7:39

And I think

Katharine Whitehorn7:41

It's always easier if you're in a job where you make your own timetable.

Katharine Whitehorn7:45

Record number two.

Katharine Whitehorn7:47

The second record

Katharine Whitehorn7:48

I've always liked these Chopin walses, ever since my father used to play them on the piano. He was a schoolmaster.

Katharine Whitehorn7:55

He played these waltzes very well and very fast. He always said with some pride that he actually beat the minute on the minute waltz. This isn't it, but it's one I like.

Presenter8:59

Part of Chopin's Grand Valse Brillante in A Flat Major, opus thirty four, number one, played by Alan Schiller. You came, Catherine, you say, from a family that was ahead of its time. Um not least, I think, your maternal grandfather, who founded the Marriage Guidance Council.

Katharine Whitehorn9:14

That's right.

Presenter9:14

That's right.

Katharine Whitehorn9:15

Was in the First World War as a Presbyterian padre, and he had a lot of people come to him.

Katharine Whitehorn9:21

with personal problems and realize that in the twenties and thirties everybody had to keep a a good face on their marriages, but there was an enormous amount of difficulty and trouble underneath it.

Speaker 49:32

Uh

Katharine Whitehorn9:32

And he

Katharine Whitehorn9:34

with others of course founded the Marriage Guidance Council and the

Katharine Whitehorn9:38

Relate, as it's now called, it's the Herbert Grey Hall in Rugby, and that's my grandfather.

Presenter9:45

And you had aunts, you say, who went to Cambridge one aunt who went to Cambridge before the war, so she must have been a sort of contemporary of Vera Britton.

Katharine Whitehorn9:52

No, no, well, I remember somebody telling me she'd read zoology at Edinburgh before the First World War, and she said apparently they had to do their anatomy separately. And it was rumored that there were bits of the gentleman that the ladies never got.

Presenter10:06

So there was no question but that you would receive the same kind of educational opportunity as your brother. I mean, entirely enlightened in in that educational sense. And you were sent to Rodine, which had decamped in the

Katharine Whitehorn10:14

Absolutely.

Katharine Whitehorn10:17

Well, the reason I accepted Rodine

Presenter10:17

Well, the reason I said it,

Katharine Whitehorn10:20

It was at the beginning of the war. My father's school, Mill Hill, had been evacuated to St B's, and Rodine had been evacuated to Keswick, so that was the nearest a school of a comparable standard, and it was perfectly horrible in just about every way. But In what way?

Katharine Whitehorn10:38

Snobbish sporty

Katharine Whitehorn10:40

Um, teasing was the norm for a new girl, you know?

Katharine Whitehorn10:45

But the thing was it was evacuated to a Vida Grande hotel.

Katharine Whitehorn10:49

They'd had a huge relief map on the wall of the area.

Katharine Whitehorn10:53

And my parents were only thirty miles away. So after two years of this, I got on my bicycle and bicycled home. You ran away? Yep.

Katharine Whitehorn11:01

Never to be sent back? Never to be sent back. People say, well, didn't Rodine give you anything? Yes, it did.

Katharine Whitehorn11:06

Ever since then I've always known I was happy when I was happy, and not just later.

Katharine Whitehorn11:10

And for years I could cheer myself up just remembering I wasn't there any more.

Katharine Whitehorn11:15

Record number three.

Katharine Whitehorn11:16

Well, after that I finally went back to a different school to

Katharine Whitehorn11:21

Get into Cambridge, which I finally did, and I adored Cambridge.

Katharine Whitehorn11:26

read English, which is not a particularly sensible thing to read, but it was, of course, the perfect place to conduct one's emotional education, and one of my closest friends

Katharine Whitehorn11:37

Who was not a boyfriend? He always used to cheer us up when we had a broken heart again, or when we'd split up with the current boyfriend. There was one particular tune he always played on these occasions, which was Jean-Sablanc singing Je tier mar reverance. You know, his Jean-Sablan's affair is over in the song, and so were our various amours, and he played this.

Speaker 412:02

Imalfeduada.

Speaker 412:04

Pavlov de Fossil

Speaker 412:07

The fall citables

Speaker 412:10

Mais literally commais, simplement, chejolaime.

Speaker 412:16

Title vivous-vous, Monsieur pourvoir, c'est voila dou.

Presenter12:27

Jean Sablan je tier mar reverence, and that was recorded in Paris in nineteen thirty nine. Essentially, I I take my leave of you and somebody else takes my place, which is well what happens all the time in young love. But your young loves were in Cambridge, as you say, just after the war, when presumably all all the young men were were men, not boys, because they'd been away to war.

Katharine Whitehorn12:35

Because

Katharine Whitehorn12:46

Indeed, there wasn't a soul there who hadn't done national service, and most of them had fought.

Presenter12:46

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn12:50

Which was of course lovely at the time.

Katharine Whitehorn12:53

And

Katharine Whitehorn12:54

The restrictions were lifting slightly, but we were still supposed to be out of the men's colleges by

Katharine Whitehorn13:00

Um well

Katharine Whitehorn13:02

We were allowed into the men's colleges, Michael. You were allowed into the men's colleges and in Trinity you you were allowed to stay till midnight and Trinity Hall only till ten. And they always say, Well, what is it that a man of Trinity Hall thinks of at ten that a man of Trinity wouldn't think of till midnight?

Katharine Whitehorn13:16

But I do remember being lowered over the wall of Trinity Hall in a man's

Katharine Whitehorn13:21

Homburg hat and Macintosh by a man who I think is now is or has been a High Court judge. No names, no petrol.

Katharine Whitehorn13:30

Yeah.

Presenter13:31

Were you eventually under pressure? I mean, in those days and it wasn't that long ago after all, but w women did kind of get married in their early twenties. I mean, if you were twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven, you were really on the shelf, weren't you? Did you feel that kind of pressure from your family, or the pressure to produce grandchildren for them?

Katharine Whitehorn13:49

Well, again, I my mother

Katharine Whitehorn13:53

Never once said when you're going to get married. She never once said when you're going to have a baby.

Katharine Whitehorn13:59

But we were all looking for mister Wright, and I didn't get married till I was nearly thirty.

Katharine Whitehorn14:05

So obviously there was a fair bit of

Katharine Whitehorn14:08

Water under the bridge.

Katharine Whitehorn14:09

Um between then

Presenter14:11

It was fun looking for Mr Wright. You you had your heart broken once, I think. You sort of spotted someone you thought was was he in the state.

Katharine Whitehorn14:14

You had to

Katharine Whitehorn14:20

Yes, it was the only person I really would cheerfully have met. I mean, in my twenties, there were two chaps who wanted to marry me and two people I wanted to marry, but they weren't the same people.

Katharine Whitehorn14:29

Um, until we got to Gowan.

Katharine Whitehorn14:31

And there was a chap who was

Katharine Whitehorn14:34

When I went to America I did a postgraduate degree in America where I didn't do much work but I had a great deal of fun.

Katharine Whitehorn14:40

And

Katharine Whitehorn14:41

It became fairly clear then that this chap was not going to marry me, and the really inconvenient thing was that he was not an American, he was an Englishman, and

Katharine Whitehorn14:50

the eldest son of my mother's closest friend. So, you know, in a sense, everybody back home knew what was going on.

Katharine Whitehorn14:58

But my mother

Katharine Whitehorn15:00

Sent me wrote m wrote me a limerick to cheer me up during this sad time. Because he was very young for his age, this chap. Anyway, she wrote this limerick. He said there was a young man so obsessed he didn't like women undressed. He'd a mother fixation, and spent his vocation in sailing from Busham to Brest.

Presenter15:19

So I see he he wasn't performing in all kinds of ways, so he's f

Katharine Whitehorn15:22

Oh, he was fine. Look, you can't ask me that on me.

Katharine Whitehorn15:27

Next piece of music.

Katharine Whitehorn15:29

The next one

Katharine Whitehorn15:31

Is a piece of music from Finland where before I went to America.

Katharine Whitehorn15:36

I had the job of running a club that was teach a sort of Anglophil club among the Finns where I had a great time.

Katharine Whitehorn15:43

I have an abiding

Katharine Whitehorn15:45

Love for Finland and this is a bit out of Sibelius's Finlandia, which is also a favourite hymn.

Presenter16:50

Part of Sibelius's Finlandia, played by the Philemonia orchestra conducted by Vladimir Ashkenazi. You were twenty seven by the time you got back to this country after Scandinavia and the United States, Catherine, and eventually you fetched up on on Picture Post.

Katharine Whitehorn16:59

Or

Presenter17:06

Journalism, absolutely the right place for you, no doubt. Round peg, round

Katharine Whitehorn17:09

Round peg round four.

Presenter17:11

In

Katharine Whitehorn17:12

Uh It was

Presenter17:12

Jane is

Katharine Whitehorn17:14

Picture post was a marvellous place to learn, because you always went out with a photographer and it was a completely dual act in a way that I don't think it is now quite the same way, and you didn't know till you got back to the office whether it was two thousand words or a set of captions, but they were equally important.

Katharine Whitehorn17:31

But it was a caption that you wrote. Uh uh uh

Presenter17:33

Oh yeah, chip.

Katharine Whitehorn17:33

A picture post. Um

Presenter17:36

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn17:37

Job offer from the woman's own, next, wasn't it? Yes. And even that, you see, that Gavin was involved in. He had the desk in front of me. And it was a thing.

Katharine Whitehorn17:45

About two

Katharine Whitehorn17:46

tigresses and a tiger, and they had shared a cage for all the summer. At the end of the summer the tigresses ate him.

Katharine Whitehorn17:54

And I think Gavin gave me the idea for the caption. He passed it back. And the caption was His wounds were mortal, his trouble immortal. He tried to live with two females at once, and it killed him.

Katharine Whitehorn18:07

And Jimmy Draubel of Woman's Own, who later fired me for writing insufficiently dainty copy, rang up and said, Who wrote this caption? and it turned out to be me.

Katharine Whitehorn18:19

When picture post folded.

Katharine Whitehorn18:21

I got a job on woman's own.

Presenter18:23

But Gavin, you married eventually. You both left Picture Post. Well, it folded, as you say, and you eventually got together. So he'd seen you in other relationships, as it were. You'd known him a long time without recognizing that he was, as you've put it, absolutely what the doctor ordered.

Katharine Whitehorn18:26

Mm.

Katharine Whitehorn18:33

Yes.

Presenter18:40

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn18:40

Uh we were mates before we were lovers, and

Katharine Whitehorn18:44

During the time pictures were folding, it was all sort of.

Katharine Whitehorn18:47

Rather negotiable.

Katharine Whitehorn18:48

And we didn't go abroad together, but we were going to meet up down there by the whale in the Monte Carlo Museum.

Katharine Whitehorn18:56

And in those days it was a sort of lovely nineteenth century skeleton, you know, a block and a half long.

Katharine Whitehorn19:01

And then we made our way down Italy and across to Greece.

Katharine Whitehorn19:06

and um got it together on a Greek island and Gavin proposed Delphi at dawn.

Katharine Whitehorn19:12

And uh Your fate was sealed. Yeah, it was, actually. For forty-five years together.

Presenter19:18

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn19:18

Uh

Katharine Whitehorn19:19

Record number five.

Katharine Whitehorn19:21

Gavin and I didn't have the same musical tastes for the most part. He was a great jazz man and I preferred classics. But

Katharine Whitehorn19:29

The bit in the middle was sort of Negro Spirituals and Cold Porter and so forth, and this Ella Fitzgerald was one that we could both play on the Coral Radio.

Speaker 419:37

Every time we say goodbye I die a little

Speaker 419:49

Every time we say goodbye.

Speaker 419:57

I wonder why a little Why the God's above me

Presenter20:06

Ella Fitzgerald, Singing Cold Porters Every Time We Say Goodbye, and that was recorded in 1956. We can't not mention, Catherine, your seminal work, Cooking in a Bedsitter, which you first published in 1960 and then Penguin got hold of it in 62 and I think it was in print for, what, the next 40 years? Amazing. It seemed, I mean, I remember it, it seemed so glamorous at the time because, of course, living in a bedsitter with one gas ring is what we all thought was the thing to do. I mean, so many modern novels were set in these places.

Katharine Whitehorn20:16

Right.

Katharine Whitehorn20:19

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn20:23

Maze.

Presenter20:36

It certainly uh advocated incredibly exciting food, things like spaghetti.

Katharine Whitehorn20:42

Yes, I know. It's extraordinary. When you think of this is why it's finally gone out of print, because the food scene is so different. But in those days it was you know, people coming out of austerity, going to Europe a great deal more, learning how to do these things. But the main thing was that I was learning too. I was learning at that moment. There was one priceless occasion when

Katharine Whitehorn21:01

We were taken as guests of an all male dining club. They'd had the wit to make the Admiral in charge of Portsmouth one of their members, so he was entertaining them at Portsmouth, and we were guests. And Gavin was fascinated by military history and military things.

Katharine Whitehorn21:16

He was looking forward to discussing sea battles with these people, and pictured his astonishment when a couple of gnarled old sea dogs, with gold braid out a yard wide, came up and thanked me for saving their lives. And I said, But but I haven't been to sea No, no, they said, when we're sent on a course, we're given a saucepan and a wooden spoon and a copy of your book, without which we would have starved.

Presenter21:39

But it was absolutely the moment, wasn't it, to publish such a book. I don't know if it was your idea, but there we all were, not knowing what an avocado pear was. Or I think you even introduced us to tea bags, didn't you?

Katharine Whitehorn21:41

To b

Katharine Whitehorn21:51

Yes, I I had to explain what a teapot was. But at that time most of the beginner books were written for brides, and they were mostly recommending perfectly awful food, you know, like sago pudding and how to do a roast and stuff, and it was useless for people with a gas ring.

Presenter22:08

So there you were. I think you even even talked about

Katharine Whitehorn22:12

About a pizza that you could make in a frying pan. You could make a pizza in a frying pan. It was very dangerous. It tended to blow up that pizza. So it's just as well we don't do it anymore.

Presenter22:14

You could make

Katharine Whitehorn22:20

Yeah.

Presenter22:20

But they were great times. This coincided with you moving on to the Observer, as you've said, and and and again in the vanguard of women's journalism.

Katharine Whitehorn22:26

Announced

Presenter22:28

Gavin was at home suddenly becoming very famous because his books were bestsellers. I mean his Midnight Plus One won the Crime Writer's Silver Dagger.

Speaker 422:32

Hmm.

Presenter22:37

What what golden years you kind of landed

Katharine Whitehorn22:44

Um I had gone to the Observer doing fashion, oddly enough.

Katharine Whitehorn22:49

Um and I quit that simply because, you know, I was getting on a bit and I'd had a couple of miscarriages, and they said if you go on at this pace you'll never hang on to one.

Katharine Whitehorn22:58

So I had my first baby in nineteen sixty four, Bernard.

Katharine Whitehorn23:02

So there was a sense in which everything came together. We had children, we had the house.

Katharine Whitehorn23:09

You know, it was a golden time.

Presenter23:09

But you have to

Presenter23:11

It wa it me you had happiness with a very capital H.

Katharine Whitehorn23:14

Oh yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn23:15

But there was a lot of that first and last.

Katharine Whitehorn23:19

I could have missed.

Katharine Whitehorn23:20

The next record is a bit of boss.

Katharine Whitehorn23:24

Double violin concerto.

Katharine Whitehorn23:26

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn23:27

Bath's sort of happiness is the lasting kind, it stands you in good stead when sort of more emotional stuff.

Katharine Whitehorn23:33

Doesn't.

Katharine Whitehorn23:34

I like this piece.

Presenter24:26

Behoudi Menouin and Georges Enescu playing part of the slow movement of Bach's double violin concerto with the Paris Symphony Orchestra conducted by Pierre Monteu, and that was recorded in nineteen thirty two.

Presenter24:37

Y you um had a couple of miscarriages um at first, Catherine. Did you write about those in your column, or was that too avant-garde even for the sixties?

Katharine Whitehorn24:46

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn24:47

No, I did.

Presenter24:48

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn24:48

Uh I wrote a piece called A Glass of Wine in Guyn, which was all about.

Katharine Whitehorn24:54

um, having a miscarriage in hospital and what fun it was when Bernard Levin bought a great hamper of marvellous stuff. So the Observer did print it, but they printed it the morning after the baby was born and said Catherine Whitehall's now had her first child.

Presenter25:08

Yes, and you had that first child when you were 36, and then you had another one at 39. Again.

Katharine Whitehorn25:08

Yeah.

Presenter25:13

Very much ahead of your time. That would have been considered ancient for producing children.

Katharine Whitehorn25:18

Yes, but they call you an elderly prima para when you're about twenty-six, so that doesn't mean a lot.

Presenter25:22

Yes, yes, or an ancient prima gravita or something. Terrible titles. Did did Gavin remain long suffering about this juggling act all the way through, or were there times when he said, Look, you know, this is too difficult?

Katharine Whitehorn25:36

I think he thought he shouldn't complain, and I think it was harder on him than I let myself realize.

Katharine Whitehorn25:44

Because

Katharine Whitehorn25:46

There was always a bit of attention, not so much about me doing my observer work, which he believed in, but I think he got a bit fed up with the number of extra things I added, you know, going on committees and going on boards and stuff like that. And I think

Katharine Whitehorn26:03

That I probably wasn't.

Katharine Whitehorn26:05

alert enough to what he was necessarily going through.

Katharine Whitehorn26:10

And I think poor Gavin had to put up with a lot of that.

Presenter26:13

So you were pushing the envelope all of the time, but would you suddenly realize I've gone too far, I better get back to the other side? Because we did hear the camera.

Katharine Whitehorn26:18

To lay over.

Presenter26:20

Uh

Katharine Whitehorn26:20

And then I would knock off six or seven other things.

Katharine Whitehorn26:25

And then it would gradually, gradually build up again.

Speaker 326:27

Hmm.

Katharine Whitehorn26:28

But he you know, there were changes in his life he exhausted one particular type of thriller, wrote scripts for a bit, and then started on the major maxim books, which were four quite different ones.

Katharine Whitehorn26:42

So

Katharine Whitehorn26:44

We've had our professional ups and downs.

Katharine Whitehorn26:47

which we helped each other through, so to speak.

Katharine Whitehorn26:50

But

Katharine Whitehorn26:51

I can only quote what my son said.

Katharine Whitehorn26:54

At Gavin's Memorial Service.

Katharine Whitehorn26:57

He said any honest relationship has its ups and downs, and maybe some I wasn't aware of.

Katharine Whitehorn27:03

But in all that time nobody would ever have doubted the depths of his devotion to Cath or Hursterhip.

Katharine Whitehorn27:11

And when Gavin died.

Katharine Whitehorn27:15

which was over two years ago now.

Katharine Whitehorn27:18

It's indescribable, isn't it? Except that it's actually the music that says it.

Katharine Whitehorn27:23

And

Katharine Whitehorn27:24

After a couple of years, it's a welcome sadness you don't want to stop.

Katharine Whitehorn27:30

Feeling what you feel.

Katharine Whitehorn27:32

And this particular violin concerto of Mozart's says the things that you can't put into words.

Presenter28:40

Part of the slow movement of Mozart's third violin concerto, played by Otto Grumio, with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Colin Davies. You say, Catherine, that that you've recovered better than most widows. What do you mean by that?

Presenter28:54

Well

Katharine Whitehorn28:55

I think

Katharine Whitehorn28:56

That in a sense I have a life of my own which could keep on keeping on.

Katharine Whitehorn29:02

And I live in London where there's a lot going on, and some of the family are near, though one son's in California.

Katharine Whitehorn29:09

And you've still got a job. You're the agony of

Presenter29:11

For saga. Yes. Now, just tell me, you're what, in the second half of your seventies, I am sure that people.

Presenter29:20

Write to you at Saga Magazine about aging.

Speaker 429:24

Yeah.

Presenter29:24

How do you tell them to cope with it? I mean, w both physically and psychologically, when they're reduced by the kind of sagging or their invisibility, I think that's what worries a lot of people.

Katharine Whitehorn29:35

Well that's one of the hardest ones to tackle.

Katharine Whitehorn29:38

And

Katharine Whitehorn29:39

On the whole they do manage to find a way out of it by

Katharine Whitehorn29:43

Doing things that perhaps they would never have done before. I mean, I've occasionally had a woman say, I'm very lonely, but I'm not a joiner.

Katharine Whitehorn29:50

And you what you want to say is silly cow, be a joiner, or something like that. But there are problems I didn't know about.

Katharine Whitehorn29:58

Um I mean, I never realized, for example, that there's a daughter-in-law from hell. Everyone knows about the mother-in-law.

Katharine Whitehorn30:04

I am incredibly lucky. My daughter-in-law is marvellous, but

Katharine Whitehorn30:09

The number of times that you get a daughter-in-law who keeps the grandmother away from the kiddiwinks, or it's worse, of course, if there's a split.

Katharine Whitehorn30:18

The son's mother doesn't get to see the children much, or indeed sometimes ever again.

Presenter30:23

Uh

Katharine Whitehorn30:24

But it's it's fascinating because you never know what the next problem's going to be.

Presenter30:29

Quite, but there's obviously a deal of unhappiness there.

Presenter30:34

And and in a sense, I suppose we all expect when we reach later age that we're going to find some serenity. Is it is it not there?

Katharine Whitehorn30:42

It's there for some people and sometimes pe but of course it's the ones who aren't particularly serene who write to me.

Katharine Whitehorn30:47

But

Katharine Whitehorn30:49

Obviously in this age group a lot of my friends are widows, and they cope very well, but they have to repeople their lives sometimes and they have to

Katharine Whitehorn31:00

Find things to do.

Katharine Whitehorn31:02

when things just came to them before, you know.

Presenter31:06

But you do seem, Catherine, to have achieved a kind of

Presenter31:09

serenity in later age, which I mean, you can look back philosophically across all of and you've had some turbulent times, you know. It it's quite a trick, that. What what is what is the trick, do you think?

Katharine Whitehorn31:18

Yeah.

Katharine Whitehorn31:23

I don't know that serenity is quite the word, but I'm very distractible. I'm more cheerful than I would have thought was.

Katharine Whitehorn31:31

Really by keeping on doing things and seeing people and

Katharine Whitehorn31:35

Do you remember, you were probably too young, though in the old Itmar show way back there was a gloomy cleaner called Mona Lott, who used to say it's being so cheerful as keeps me going.

Katharine Whitehorn31:47

Well, for me it's the other way round. It's being so going as keeps me cheerful.

Katharine Whitehorn31:52

Last record.

Katharine Whitehorn31:54

The last record

Katharine Whitehorn31:55

is

Katharine Whitehorn31:56

A cheerful one, because after all life does go on. It's a Schubert impromptu, I suppose. I've

Katharine Whitehorn32:03

I've been listening to Schubert ever since my father used to have records of it.

Katharine Whitehorn32:07

And this is one of my favourites.

Katharine Whitehorn32:10

Which is

Katharine Whitehorn32:11

Cheerful.

Katharine Whitehorn32:13

As I am.

Presenter33:06

Part of Schubert's impromptu number four in A flat major, Opus ninety, played by Murray Pariah. Now, Catherine, if you could only take one of the eight records, which single one would you choose?

Presenter33:17

I think it would have to be the Bach,'cause I think I would never get

Katharine Whitehorn33:21

Tired of that?

Presenter33:22

And your book we give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, as you know.

Katharine Whitehorn33:27

Well, I think I would like Bill Bryson's short history of nearly everything, because I've had sixty years of other people's opinions and I'm sick of it. I want to finally master the facts.

Katharine Whitehorn33:39

And a luxury.

Katharine Whitehorn33:40

Well, I don't know if this is allowed, but could I have a distilling machine to distill whatever was there with very clear instruction?

Presenter33:49

Good good journalist choice, huh?

Presenter33:52

Catherine Whiteon, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Speaker 334:03

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.