Bishop John Sentamu

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and three, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:24

My castaway this week is a bishop. I am a man, he says. I am from Africa. I am black. I am a Christian. There's a big mix in there. He came here from Uganda, where he'd suffered at the hands of Edi Armin, the country's dictator. He became a priest, luring his parishioners with music and charisma. But he suffered here too. The National Front tried to burn his house down. But they, like Edi Armin, were no match for the vicar who, by his own admission, is a prisoner of hope.

Presenter0:51

He went on to criticise his own church for its attitude on race, to chair a review on how the Damilola Taylor murder was handled, and last year to become Bishop of Birmingham, the first black cleric to reach such a senior position in the Church of England. His achievements, he believes, are simply those of a man putting back some of what he's been given. Incomers like myself have a duty, he says. Whatever rights I have here have to be earned. He is the Right Reverend John Centimou. You're also, um, Bishop, a man who loves music. In fact, you write music, don't you?

Bishop John Sentamu1:25

Yes, I've written some settings to the T DM, which is one of the Church of England's greatest piece of praise for some psalms and some songs. As a child, my mother used to sing quite a lot, and because there were thirteen of us, we all had to learn different songs to lull all our younger ones to bed. So I was actually raised up in a place of singing and music and dancing.

Presenter1:46

And those pieces you've written, I think, have been played at your inauguration. Yes, they have.

Bishop John Sentamu1:50

Yes, they have. One was when I was made a Bishop of Stepney, and the other one when I became Bishop of Birmingham.

Presenter1:54

So music is obviously key to you because not just that, I think I'm right in saying you've used music to bring the con to up the congregation.

Bishop John Sentamu2:02

Yes, I mean I'm I'm a strong believer. Saint Augustine said something wonderful that God gave us music that we may pray without words. And I think music touches the real soul of everybody. I mean I have never seen a little child when music is played, their hands are up, their feet are up, they're all excited. And then as they get older we begin to say to them, oh forget this excitement, this joy, this hope. Every baby that I've ever seen, they always are happy to dance around whenever music is about.

Presenter2:29

It has to be said, when you were inaugurated as Bishop of Birmingham last winter, uh it was like a carnival.

Bishop John Sentamu2:35

Absolutely.

Presenter2:36

Absolutely. I mean, we're Hindus, Sikhs, Roman Catholics, music, colour. Why not?

Bishop John Sentamu2:40

Why not? Dancing as well, and and Mother's Union ladies in their white and blue dancing away. I think all of us joined in because we've been created, as it seems to me, with the greatest talent, and one of it is ability to communicate in more ways than just words.

Presenter2:56

But I have to say, I was looking at some footage of your installation as vicar of Tulse Hill, which, as we say, was about twenty years ago. It was a pretty quiet affair, and you looked scared to death.

Bishop John Sentamu3:06

Well, I mean, I was just a new vicar. You got to go in very quietly and gently, but I was absolutely determined that this won't continue.

Presenter3:14

And you've said that you looked up at that stained glass window.

Bishop John Sentamu3:14

And you say

Bishop John Sentamu3:16

Yes, yes. And I saw actually an amazing uh story of creation. And in the faces there were the faces of the entire human race, different colors, different shapes, different sizes. And I thought, Yeah, I think God is calling me here and we're going to do some wonderful creative stuff like this stained glass window.

Presenter3:35

Tell me about your first record.

Bishop John Sentamu3:36

My first record really, I was eight days away from my birthday in 1953 and the Queen was actually going to her coronation. We huddled around this little radio. The music came through and as she entered the Abbey there was this amazing bust of things. I didn't understand what they were singing because I didn't speak English at the time but I was glad by Paris. It was just amazing. The organ, the choir, the singing. We were all just really feeling, this is it, this is it. It was so exciting.

Presenter5:09

Hubert Parry's I Was Glad, sung by Saint Paul's Cathedral Choir, conducted by John Scott, and memories for you, John Centimou, of nineteen fifty three, the coronation, you'd have been four years old.

Speaker 45:18

In the current

Speaker 45:20

Oh.

Presenter5:20

And there you were in in the bosom of your family, thirteen of you. Which which one were you of the thirteen?

Bishop John Sentamu5:25

Number six.

Presenter5:26

Alright.

Bishop John Sentamu5:27

Uh

Presenter5:27

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu5:27

Yeah, almost right in the middle.

Presenter5:27

Yeah.

Presenter5:28

And you nearly didn't make it, I gather.

Bishop John Sentamu5:30

Really didn't. I was four pounds in weight when I was born, and the doctor uh who saw me being born, Doctor Billington, was so worried, was a missionary. He called the bishop, uh who lived next door, come and baptize this little child. A bundle on my f hands were ink, things which look like ink. And in fact, I'm told that um that fluid was used for writing my dates of birth and name on the record, really, whatever it was. Anyway, so the bishop came, baptized me, thinking I won't make it the following morning, and I'm still here. And the amazing thing is that bishop

Bishop John Sentamu6:04

confirmed me, he ordained me deacon in this country, was at my consecration, and later on I was involved in his wife's funeral, and then I took his own funeral in nineteen ninety nine.

Presenter6:15

So it's all comfortful, sir.

Bishop John Sentamu6:17

Yes.

Presenter6:17

Two circle.

Bishop John Sentamu6:17

What's that?

Presenter6:19

Your father was the headmaster of the local primary school where you went. But what kind of house did you live in? How did life go on?

Bishop John Sentamu6:21

Where you

Bishop John Sentamu6:25

It was a four-bedroomed house, and so you can imagine the parents had their bedroom, and the rest of us had to share.

Bishop John Sentamu6:32

Um, I mean, I was raised in a place where all my clothes until I was about eighteen were hand me downs. So I looked forward actually to Easter because you already got a new pair of short trousers. That was the only time you had this new thing. I read you never had a pair of shoes until

Presenter6:48

Willie went to university.

Bishop John Sentamu6:49

Yeah.

Presenter6:49

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu6:49

Never. Were you barefoot? That's most people. That's what really those years ago was the way we grew our own food. Except I remember when I was about, what, nine, there was a terrible famine in the country and we didn't have enough food. And that night, Father saying, okay, we shall say grace afterwards, because he saw that we were totally disappointed. And it was my turn to say prayer, and my grace was amazing. Words just came in and I said, Dear God, thank you for this food.

Presenter6:50

What did you at when you got back?

Bishop John Sentamu7:18

Would have been more grateful had we had some more to eat.

Bishop John Sentamu7:22

And the whole family just burst out laughing.

Presenter7:26

This was well, this is sort of nineteen fifties Uganda, which was a British protectorate, wasn't it? And obviously, as you say, you gathered round the radio and the coronation was important to you. What about in your everyday life? What sort of British influences were there and how strong were they?

Bishop John Sentamu7:29

Protect what wasn't.

Bishop John Sentamu7:40

Everything made in Britain was the best thing. If your clothes came from Britain, if the things we're using in school came from Britain, we're very good. But also, we're aspiring to learn English, aspiring to do things English. I mean, my father had been left one of those little old gramophones when Bishop Tucker left the country because my grandfather died when Dad was only seven years old. And this particular bishop paid for my father's education. He had him trained. But he left us this amazing little gramophone. We used to play the Handles Messiah on it day in, day out. And then I said to Dad, Could we take this into school so that we could teach my friends how to sing the Handles Messiah? So we all learned to sing this thing, and our English wasn't very good. For example, when you came to that British Iran Forever, we thought it was going to be quite showers every time.

Bishop John Sentamu8:32

But he sure is going to be a better wedding season all time round.

Presenter8:32

And he sure

Bishop John Sentamu8:37

Oh my goodness. But anyway, we practiced it and some people learned their bits as instrumentally, some good voices, and we sang it so well with such great gusto that at the end, the school people who'd been present said, you know, we want an anchor, they must come back and sing again. But this time, unfortunately, because we were so excited, people went in different places. And me trying to conduct these different instruments coming in, they were doing bits which were really towards the end of the piece and so on and so forth. It was ochaic, almost really like a jigsaw puzzle that had actually gone wrong. But it didn't matter because people loved it. Hence your next record, huh? Yes.

Speaker 19:03

Uh

Presenter9:03

So

Speaker 49:19

Oh, they fall on the feet of the thing.

Speaker 49:23

Great now who's born of peace.

Speaker 49:29

I'm being at home.

Speaker 49:35

Bring me the tongue.

Speaker 49:40

I don't know the blood of things.

Speaker 49:58

In the nighttime dawn of things.

Presenter10:14

How Beautiful Are the Feet from Handel's Messiah, sung by Kirit Karnua with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and chorus conducted by George Schulte.

Presenter10:22

So, Bishop Sentimou, you were a clever boy, you were an ambitious boy, and you might have become all sorts of things, including an actor. I gather you played Toad of Toad Hall and King Lear at some point.

Bishop John Sentamu10:32

I loved toad because nothing would stop that guy from getting the best car that was on the road and going on in at the National Theatre day in, day out, after school really, um, was fantastic. And, you know, going in the car, zoom, zroom, you know, wonderful stuff.

Speaker 110:49

And now

Bishop John Sentamu10:49

And of course and of course and Leah, um that one was a very a very complicated play. But I again, I was very well taught. I had two wonderful teachers, um Mrs. Bickford Smith and another, John Morris. They were great, great teachers. They were missionaries. Missionaries, yeah, they were teaching us. And

Bishop John Sentamu11:06

Wonderful performance. It went in it went on the national national theater for nearly four months and wonderful. But the mission.

Presenter11:12

This is in Campo.

Bishop John Sentamu11:13

In Kampala.

Presenter11:14

Hmm.

Bishop John Sentamu11:14

But I didn't realize now I know we should have been paid, but not a single penny.

Presenter11:20

But you got an offer apparently from the American Broadway director.

Bishop John Sentamu11:22

He's an American Broadway director. Yeah, Lloyd Roberts. He wanted me to go to Broadway. But my parents and my friends said, Oh, no, no, no, you're going to be corrupted by people in New York. We better not go. I'm not so sure about it now, looking back.

Speaker 111:33

I didn't go.

Presenter11:35

Now looking back.

Bishop John Sentamu11:37

And as my children always joke and say, Yeah, dad, you missed your career as an actor. You're now doing it in clerical robes. But there we go.

Presenter11:44

But there were other things in between. You might have been an engineer. An engineer, you might have been a doctor.

Bishop John Sentamu11:46

An engineer because

Bishop John Sentamu11:48

Yeah, I I a missionary again paid for my school fees, was a brilliant surgeon, a man called Shepherd, and I wanted to emulate him. And then I also was living in a home of a man called Ken Sole, who was the chief electro engineer in Uganda.

Presenter12:03

But you were living there because he would live nearer to your school.

Bishop John Sentamu12:05

it would have been otherwise, twelve miles of travel to my secondary school and twelve miles back. So he he put me up and raised me properly really in a wonderful way. And I thought I'd better become an engineer. But

Speaker 112:11

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu12:17

Again, because of this acting and many other things, in the end, I ended up doing law.

Presenter12:21

So you chose the law, you went to university. Uganda, I think, had been independent for, what, ten years by the time you came out, you moved swiftly through the judicial system, and I think you were in the High Court aged twenty five. But of course, Edi Amin had come to power.

Speaker 112:28

Uh

Speaker 112:32

It's 25.

Presenter12:36

Now, for a man brought up, as you obviously were, to believe in in truth and justice.

Presenter12:43

It was just the most terrible.

Bishop John Sentamu12:44

Very difficult. I mean, I remember going up north where I was trying some cases, and I've never seen so many widows in my entire life. Amin had killed a lot of people in the north, and unfortunately, even today, the northern part of Uganda is still not at peace. But he was crazy. He would pass decrees overnight and want you to put it into practice. I mean, I remember the police going around and arresting women because they were wearing mini skirts. And they came to court, and I said, Well, the penal court doesn't say they can't wear it, so I can't actually try them or find them guilty for a crime which in law is not written down. It was crazy. But there were other people you sent to prison in order to

Presenter13:20

In order to

Bishop John Sentamu13:21

to protect them.

Bishop John Sentamu13:22

Yeah, because uh as as the case went on, there was really no evidence. And you saw every day during the hearing there were soldiers waiting to see what was going to happen so that they could actually uh get hold of them at the end of the hearing. So

Presenter13:37

What kinds of case? What were they charged with?

Bishop John Sentamu13:38

They were charged with treason, one of them, and four for imprisonment, and others for bringing the government in disrepute, whatever have you. And there was no evidence whatsoever. So I waited every day to see whether they were soldiers or not, and one day they were not, and the prison wasn't far. So I summoned them to come back and said, You've done three weeks in prison, that's a sufficient sentence. But then I said, I want to see you in my chambers afterwards. And I said, You better run out of this country as quickly as possible. And they did. And two of them are now working overseas in big jobs. But they were being killed.

Presenter14:10

So, you rescued them in that sense. And of course, in the end, you had to run yourself, which I want to hear about. But let's pause for record number three. Tell me about that.

Bishop John Sentamu14:12

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu14:14

Want to

Bishop John Sentamu14:17

The record really I want to talk about is Jolinkomo by Milium Makeba. She came to Uganda in nineteen sixty when her passport had been withdrawn by the South African Government and has been speaking about peace and hope and love.

Bishop John Sentamu14:30

Wonderful woman. When she's on stage, she gives it

Speaker 414:31

I

Speaker 114:31

Beautiful.

Bishop John Sentamu14:34

Everything. So, that's my next record.

Speaker 414:37

Drolling car

Presenter15:06

John Como, sung by Miriam Mikaba. So, John, you were on Edi Armin's hit list as an agitator, and indeed eventually you got hit.

Bishop John Sentamu15:14

Yeah.

Presenter15:15

Very badly. Well tell me what happened.

Bishop John Sentamu15:17

I was just going to court to hear some cases. We'd been married three weeks and a friend of ours, Olalo Rotuno, who would have been in the master ceremony at our wedding, had got out of the country. Thank God he never told me that he was going to. We just didn't see him turn up. And a few days later, we got a note that he'd actually left Uganda and had gone to come to Britain. The charge was that I drove him to the border and I was put into this terrible little place where they used to keep police dogs. Thank God if I sent a message to the Chief Justice saying, you know, would you please tell the Chief Justice that they've taken me into this place? And I'm really here today because the Chief Justice insisted, but I had been bitten, kicked around, and I had heard people actually being tortured to death. You know, awful place. How did you bear it at the time?

Presenter16:09

How did you

Bishop John Sentamu16:11

I just suddenly found my the guy who was in charge said he was God.

Bishop John Sentamu16:16

And he's in charge of everything else. And and I thought, once somebody says they are God, the only way you deal with them is by not arguing. But also I suddenly discovered that my Christian upbringing was very good because I was reciting the Psalms and they came to lunch. And I think I would have been next in line really, but they came to lunch. They forgot where they had stopped.

Bishop John Sentamu16:39

Then the Chief Justice came came out and really for the next six months outside our house there was this uh armored personal courier seeing whether we're going to try and escape because if you do, then they'll shoot you and say he was trying to run.

Presenter16:52

And and I mean, physically you've suffered since as as a result. You you have nearly died since, haven't you, as a result of internal injuries?

Bishop John Sentamu16:53

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu16:55

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu16:57

Didn't have a bleeding, or didn't have a bleeding, but uh found going on here.

Presenter16:59

Bleeding butts

Presenter17:01

Yeah.

Presenter17:02

So, in the end, you did manage to get out. You got a place to read theology in Cambridge, and you said you were going to get.

Bishop John Sentamu17:04

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu17:06

Theology

Bishop John Sentamu17:08

really intending to stay for two years to go back and practise my law, but it didn't happen. Uh I mean murdered uh the Archbishop Janandoom in nineteen seventy seven. He was a friend of yours.

Presenter17:10

As to gold.

Presenter17:23

So in that sense, the decision was made for you, was it that you should become a minister? Because you were going to go back, continue being a lawyer and just extend your activities as a l as a lay preacher.

Bishop John Sentamu17:28

Just

Bishop John Sentamu17:32

Yes, yes, yes, it was. The decision was made for me. I mean, I I mean, I remember when I heard that Janana Room had been killed, me stupidly saying uh to my wife Margaret,

Bishop John Sentamu17:41

You kill our friend.

Bishop John Sentamu17:43

I shall take his place stupidly, but probably now that I look back on it and say, Why should I ever do such a thing? But I did say it, and and here I am.

Presenter17:53

And there is Edi Ameen still, living in

Bishop John Sentamu17:56

In Saudi Arabia.

Presenter17:56

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu17:57

Yeah, and in fact when there were elections about four years ago, he

Presenter17:57

Yeah, and in fact

Bishop John Sentamu18:00

was telling everybody he was going to go back and because Ugandans want him, but he ruined a country that was very prosperous. The British left Uganda in a very, very good shape. And it has no excuse for it not to be a prosperous country.

Presenter18:14

Well, he took a lot of the prosperity with him, didn't he?

Bishop John Sentamu18:15

With him, yeah, yeah. Presents you jets and um gold and many other things and he's living in luxury.

Presenter18:17

Presently.

Presenter18:21

Pretty signaling.

Bishop John Sentamu18:22

Absolutely, absolutely.

Presenter18:24

Tell me about your next record number four.

Bishop John Sentamu18:26

Well, well, when I came here, um, particularly when I was not very well in'eighty four,' I I just felt that um listening to music really by uh Jacqueline Dupre, although she then died of multiple sclerosis, which I found

Bishop John Sentamu18:41

Really personally very devastating because I loved her playing, I loved her music and listening to her playing uh Elga's um cello concerto in E minor, really, which is a protest about the First World War and how futile it is, and in fact why all wars are futile. You know, her fast opening bah says it all.

Presenter20:01

The opening of Elgar's Cello Concerto in E minor, played by Jacqueline Dupre, with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbaroli. So, John Sentimo, you swapped certain death in Uganda for life here in Britain. This is the early seventies. We're still struggling to come to terms with a multiracial society. People will argue that we still are indeed. You, in your time, you've been spat on, you've been stopped and searched by the police, as I mentioned in the introduction, you've had your house firebombed by the National Front. I mean, that must have been a pretty terrible experience.

Bishop John Sentamu20:29

I have

Bishop John Sentamu20:31

Um terrifying. But it was amazing. We somebody had given us a a card before the uh the fire and it it's the kitchen was totally gutted. And but this notice still remained. It said, Never quit, never give up and I just felt, Yeah, we're not going to quit. Nothing's going to drive us out.

Presenter20:50

But has it changed? I mean, we we're talking about thirty years now of experience of this. How how has it changed? Are you still, you know, told to go back where you came from when you walk through this

Bishop John Sentamu20:58

Some people do. I mean, I I appear on a programme like this. I can assure you there'll be some letters which will come and people write to me saying go where you belong, you silly nigger. But it's such a tiny minority that are trying to make the British society look awful. Some things go wrong, like in the Stephen Lawrence case, like in Devila Taylor. But on the whole, I think the country in my book

Bishop John Sentamu21:21

is a match changed society.

Presenter21:23

What you mentioned the Stephen Lawrence case, and you were you advised the McPherson report and then you chaired the inquiry into the Damilola-Taylor case and how it was handled. I mean there were only four years, in fact, between those two reports, although Stephen had been killed many years earlier. Institutional racism, of course, was in the end the conclusion of the McPherson report. Well, that was the strongest message anyway. How much did you feel that the Met had improved in that interim period of four years?

Bishop John Sentamu21:43

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu21:49

In the Damera Taylor Review, nearly all the twenty three recommendations which were geared towards the Met, they had actually put them in place.

Bishop John Sentamu21:59

The case of Damirola Taylor and ending up the way it ended up in the main is not because there was any racism in it, it is not because they were not professional, it is not because they were not preaching it appropriately.

Presenter22:11

So they'd learned the lessons.

Bishop John Sentamu22:12

They had learned the lessons and the report is absolutely clear. But of course, because of numbers and the way police operate, they could have done some things post charge much better.

Presenter22:21

It was all to do with resources.

Bishop John Sentamu22:22

But it was not

Presenter22:22

But it was not to do with institutional.

Bishop John Sentamu22:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Presenter22:26

And how does Birmingham compare? Because now you're involved there in the the shootings of the two black teenagers Charlene Ellison and Letitia Shakespeare, so you've seen the West Midlands force close up. Are they better than the Met, worse than the Met in terms of their attitudes in these cases?

Bishop John Sentamu22:40

The investigation, again, I must say that they're really following almost the recommendation the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and the Damela Taylor murder review. The way they've actually approached the murder, had they approached the Stephen Lawrence case in the same way, would have had a totally different result.

Presenter22:57

There's a

Bishop John Sentamu22:57

Yeah.

Presenter22:57

Yeah.

Presenter22:57

What it always comes down to in the end, isn't it, because society can put all of these things in places and obviously the McPherson report was a watershed, was a great turning point in the attitudes of the police in these cases. What it all comes down to is what's going on at the grassroots and whether it gets down there. It's the gras those are the people who send you racist hate mail, aren't they?

Bishop John Sentamu23:14

Racist hate men, yes, yes. But but but I I mean, I I really think that in the end policing is going to be good when all of us are actually assisting the police. They cannot resolve any case without the assistance of the of the public. They can't, no matter how good they are.

Presenter23:31

Record number five.

Bishop John Sentamu23:33

Louis Armstrong Boy

Bishop John Sentamu23:35

Every time that guy begins to play the instrument, you feel every energy is in it. And the song I want is one that he actually recorded in 1968, What a Wonderful World.

Speaker 423:45

I see trees of green.

Speaker 423:49

Red and roof is cheery

Speaker 423:52

I see them blue.

Speaker 423:56

Five minutes ago.

Speaker 423:58

And I think to myself.

Speaker 424:03

What a wonderful world!

Speaker 424:11

I see skies a blue.

Presenter24:15

Louis Armstrong, and what a wonderful world. We've talked about policing society, Bishop John. What about society itself, which these days has far less respect, natural respect, for the kinds of institutions you were brought up to respect, such as obviously the church, but the Queen, Parliament, the family? You know, what do you say to people, let's take the family, who come to you and, you know, they want to have children, they want to cohabit, they do do these things, but they don't want to get married. I mean, your job as a man of the church is to tell them why they ought to be married.

Bishop John Sentamu24:46

It's the t

Bishop John Sentamu24:48

My job, I think, first of all, is to meet people where they are. I think the trouble we've got for so often.

Bishop John Sentamu24:53

We've given rules and regulations to people before you've actually made friendships. I don't want actually to put up barrier because many people put barbed wire around churches.

Presenter25:03

No, no, I understand all of that. But if you don't encourage people into marriage, if you don't encourage that kind of respect for all of those institutions I've mentioned, is it not a steady

Bishop John Sentamu25:04

I understand you with that, but

Presenter25:14

Roll down the hill, you know, away from kinds of moral values that hold society together.

Bishop John Sentamu25:19

Well, I I mean I think we we live in a society at the moment where what is right in our eyes is what is important. But I was raised to believe still there's time to tell people that actually together as a community we can sort out our family life, sort out our policing, sort out education, sort out our health, provided the concern is duty and not simply rights. Because you know rights without responsibility is a nightmare.

Bishop John Sentamu25:46

And I hope that in my role in Bambing, I'm trying to encourage with all other leaders to begin to create a society that actually in the end believes in itself, that together,

Bishop John Sentamu25:56

we're better off than being alone. I mean, I was raised and my mum used to say, John, just do remember, teeth that are together are the only ones that can chew meat.

Bishop John Sentamu26:06

One tooth on its own is pretty useless. And I think that message needs to get out in our community. It is together we can do things that are wonderful.

Bishop John Sentamu26:14

Next piece of music.

Presenter26:14

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu26:14

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu26:15

Part of this, the music that really, you know, Igo Hovland Stockata in E major, now thank you all our God, a wonderful starting piece with a chorale melody had on top of the brilliant texture of the organ because in Tarsil restored our organ, which was a Hil Norman and Beard, and it was played. It was also played when I became a Bishop of Birmingham. So it's a piece of music that I think is fantastic.

Presenter27:09

Part of Egil Hofland's To Carter in E major, Now Thank We All Our God, played by Christopher Herrick. That too was played at your inauguration service as Bishop of Birmingham. It's very obvious that you're the prisoner of hope that you describe yourself to be, John.

Presenter27:25

I've said that you're the first senior black bishop in the Church of England. There is, of course, the Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nasia Ali, who who is Asian. There's no junior black bishop at all. There's only two of you, therefore, black and Asian, out of forty four senior bishops, diocesan bishops in the church. It moves pretty slowly, this church, doesn't it?

Bishop John Sentamu27:45

Uh well, I suppose, you know, Anglicanism was transported from here to everywhere in the world, and the bulk now of bishops in the Anglican Communion are black.

Bishop John Sentamu27:57

That's where the growth worldwide.

Presenter27:58

Worldwide

Speaker 127:59

It was a very good thing.

Presenter27:59

Yes, but but not here. And you've accused the church before now when you did that report of being monochrome.

Bishop John Sentamu28:02

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu28:04

I mean

Presenter28:05

It is pretty still, isn't it?

Bishop John Sentamu28:06

There is no doubt that I suspect the way the processes work, but I still think that my prayer is British born black people

Bishop John Sentamu28:16

British born working class people who in some places are in the majority will also actually get up the hierarchy of leadership because tho th that twin pronged attack really needs to happen because otherwise it is an assumption that the Church of England can only in its leadership only be middle class.

Presenter28:36

But how do you bring that about? I mean, you know, if let's pretend you were Archbishop of Canterbury. What would you do over the course of the next five years to bring all that about?

Bishop John Sentamu28:47

I mean, I suspect in the end, rural models are important. I mean, when I left Stutney, there were quite a number of black clergy there, and it's a matter of time before another black person probably is appointed as a bishop in the Church of England. So I think that what we need to do, though, is to recognize that the Church is supposed to look like what heaven is going to be in the future. It will be a rainbow church. And because it's going to be a rainbow church, we better start working hard. And there's some history, at least the Church of England, you know, has acknowledged that it didn't really treat black people well when they first arrived in this country. There is a concerted effort to make things better, and I'm really optimistic that the church will begin to mirror what heaven looks like. But it's a long way to go. It's a long road.

Bishop John Sentamu29:31

Record number seven. In 1984, I was very, very ill. Went down with pneumonia and was in hospital for two and a half months. But on Christmas Eve, the young Ahle Jones was singing and wonderful, holy night. And I thought, I'm very ill, but yeah, I can have hope. I can have belief in the future being bright. And the record I've chosen, Adult Ahled sings with his young self. Kevin stuff. Very clever.

Speaker 430:00

Terror stuff.

Speaker 430:06

And glorious Lord.

Speaker 430:11

Fall on your knees over here with angel Christ.

Speaker 430:25

Our night divine Christ nights.

Presenter31:03

O Holy Night, sung by the young and the older, although not so very old, Alad Jones, a duet with himself through the wonders of modern technology.

Presenter31:11

Okay, Bishop John, let's talk about you on a desert island. To start with your you're a good cook.

Presenter31:16

Your your kids think you should open a restaurant, shouldn't you?

Bishop John Sentamu31:18

Absolutely.

Presenter31:19

And I know you are,'cause you brought a carrot cake and we've been eating it.

Bishop John Sentamu31:21

Yes. Uh

Presenter31:22

Yeah. But you obviously enjoy it.

Bishop John Sentamu31:22

Yeah.

Bishop John Sentamu31:24

Oh, lovely. I mean, I I think it is to me is one area of real relaxation. Uh, because cooking, again, mother was very, very good in encouraging all of us to cook. It didn't matter whether you were a girl or a boy, all of us actually learnt how to cook.

Presenter31:36

She was a domestic science teacher.

Bishop John Sentamu31:37

And um and therefore devoted all her life to helping all of us to learn how to cook. Um wonderful stuff. Great, great, great. I mean to end up uh with things that are raw and then you present them on the table and everybody thinks is good. I thi I think eating is one of the most bonding thing in life, really. If if pe if people can eat together, they're more likely to stay friends.

Speaker 131:46

Uh

Presenter31:55

Live.

Presenter31:56

Uh

Bishop John Sentamu32:00

Yeah.

Presenter32:01

Well, you're eating on your own on the desert island. Spiritually, you know, we know you can cope. You've been truly tested, sorely tested, as we heard, and we know you've got the fortitude to survive all of that. What about in other practical ways? I mean, could you kill for food?

Bishop John Sentamu32:07

It is we have

Bishop John Sentamu32:14

Oh yes, I I um I mean again when you're raised as a as a boy uh you're responsible for making sure that uh the the the chicken that's going to go on the table you you're supposed to uh to kill it and and prepare it for the family. Um I mean I I have slaughtered goats for the family and people so I've learned all the skill of actually how to survive. I can do it. No trouble. Still do it. No fears.

Presenter32:33

Hmm.

Speaker 432:35

Yeah.

Presenter32:35

Still do it.

Presenter32:36

Okay. So what would you do all day? You you're going to be well fed, you could build a shelter. What are you going to do all day on the island? How are you going to amuse yourself?

Bishop John Sentamu32:43

By the

Bishop John Sentamu32:44

I think all day on the island, I'm I mean I'm going to take, of course, I hope you're going to give me some books like a Bible, I read and write up some more music from the Psalms, I hope I'll have a bit of Shakespeare and try out all the plays I haven't tried out. And I hope you'll allow me also to take not just the little volume, but the complete volume of the Chronicles of Nania, because as an adult when I read them, I thought, this is fantastic stuff. That noble Lion Aslan really teaches the children that loyalty, discipline, and determination in the end is the only way you can conquer evil. I'm likely to survive.

Presenter33:22

Last record, tell me about that one.

Bishop John Sentamu33:24

My my last record really is is because of fifty years of my existence really and many, many, many people who in my life have actually supported me. I mean, there's a wonderful African saying that anybody who stands out in a crowd is because they are standing

Bishop John Sentamu33:40

on the shoulders of others. I am where I am because people in this country, in Uganda, have helped me. And there's nothing which really can help me to say thank you than this wonderful um song of Shaleep Bathy, who says thank you for the years. I think it's fantastic.

Speaker 433:58

I thank you for being

Speaker 434:04

I thank you, it's been so wonderful.

Speaker 434:11

And through all of the good and bad times I just want to say I'm glad you in my heart

Speaker 434:24

Loving you was only just

Presenter34:26

Cause all

Presenter34:27

Fairly bassy, and thank you for the years. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, John, which one would you take?

Bishop John Sentamu34:34

I think I'll take I was glad.

Presenter34:36

She was Carrie.

Bishop John Sentamu34:37

I take Hubert Parry.

Presenter34:39

There at the beginning and there at the end. Yes.

Bishop John Sentamu34:41

Yes, yes. I think it's a stirring, starring piece of music.

Presenter34:46

And what about your luxury?

Bishop John Sentamu34:47

I was going to take a kitchen because one day, who knows, you could become a castaway and I may entertain you.

Presenter34:54

What a nice idea you have already. Bishop John sent to me thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island is.

Bishop John Sentamu35:01

Thank you, sir.

Speaker 135:08

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.