John Hegarty

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 20:12

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is an advertising man. Responsible for many of the cameos and slogans that accompany our everyday lives. He's now, at the age of forty seven, worth, in his own words, a huge amount. His wealth has been built on images familiar to all of us. Forsprung Deutsch Technik is his, and so is the man who takes his jeans off in the laundrette.

Presenter0:49

He brings some principles, though, to the techniques of persuasion. He won't advertise cigarettes or political parties. As a result, he and his firm, the rhythmically named Bartle Bogle Hegerty, enjoy a reputation that extends well beyond the confines of their industry. He is John Hegerty.

Presenter1:06

John, we know what's wrong with cigarettes, but what's wrong with politics? I mean, it's made a lot of advertising agencies a huge amount of money.

John Hegarty1:13

I think it's it's a very interesting thing in some ways to work in. I think that the point of view that we take is that we are best as an agency when we're working as one. And I think it would be very difficult for us to sort of amalgamate all our points of view under one political party. I think it goes very deep in people's beliefs.

Presenter1:32

It just seems to be a contradiction in terms, if you'll forgive me, the the idea of principles and advertising, you know?

John Hegarty1:38

Well, I think life is about contradictions and those sorts of things. The more I I experience the world, the more I realize is that we live largely mostly myths that all have to be challenged. And I think advertising is at its best when it's honest. I think it is the most powerful thing you can use when you're selling something, or when you're talking to somebody, or when you're trying to communicate with them.

Presenter1:58

But the image remains, doesn't it, of uh jetting off to foreign places and making luxurious adverts, spending vast amounts of money. I mean, that's what people think of when they think of advertising.

John Hegarty2:08

Yes, they do. Uh I spend an awful lot of my time going to places like Staines and Warrington. And not there's anything wrong with Staines and Warrington. They're not quite Acapulco or the Nevada Desert. But uh yes, there is an element to that. Uh one can't deny it. That's one of the the good sides of the business. One of the tough sides to the industry is the hours you have to work and the effort you have to put in and the competition that's there from other people. So

John Hegarty2:33

You know, it has its pluses and its minuses.

Presenter2:34

But that image of money is not entirely wrong. I mean, money and advertising remain inextricably linked. I think it's one of the best paid industries in the country, isn't it? And you've said, by your own admission, you have a huge amount of of it, and you want to unclutter your life. What do you mean by that?

John Hegarty2:49

When I say I have a huge amount of it, I have a huge amount from my point of view. I mean, I came from a sort of working-class background, so the kind of money I'm earning now is in some ways ridiculous, but who am I to send it back? But I think in life, as I go on, I think if you can focus yourself on things, you can focus on issues, that's what's important to me, and really take things away so you see more.

Presenter3:12

Well, what we offer here is a complete uncluttering process,'cause we strip you of everything perhaps not your jeans and plonk you on a desert island. I I mean, do you buy that? Do you fancy that?

John Hegarty3:22

In some ways I do. I am a sort of somewhat gregarious person. I like the the company of friends. I like people around me. So I would find it quite difficult. But on the other side, I the the idea of of the sort of desert island is something that's sort of uh quite romantic. Of course you'll be there on your own, but uh from that point of view you'll get to know yourself rather well I think.

Presenter3:42

And tell me about the music you've chosen to take with you. I mean, h how did you choose it?

John Hegarty3:45

Well, I I've chosen music that has sort of impacted upon my life and that is also contemporary.

Presenter3:52

What's the first one?

John Hegarty3:54

The first song I've chosen is by Chuck Berry, Sweet Little Sixteen. When I was growing up, rock and roll happened. I I was born at the perfect time, I think, 1944, because rock and roll happened at about the age of twelve. But it really was black music. And I thought what was always appalling was that white music or white musicians were able to make it popular and deny the rights of black people who had actually really written most of it, and it was their inspiration. And for me, Chuck Berry, out of all of those early rock and roll stars, was the greatest of them all.

Speaker 44:28

They're really rocking in Boston and Pittsburgh PA

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Deep in the heart of Texas.

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And round the Frisco Beach

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All over things look to me.

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And down in New Orleans

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All the cats gonna dance with

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We love that thing.

Presenter4:51

Chuck Berry and Sweet Little Sixteen. Can we talk about some of the ads, John Hegarty, that you personally have created? Let's take the Audi ad, the Forsprung Deutsch Technik. Why does it work? I mean, most people in this country don't even know what it means.

John Hegarty5:03

There isn't really a word for it in English actually. It means sort of staying ahead, winning, Vorsprung. Winning with technology with

Presenter5:09

But tell me I mean, the message obviously from that is that the car is German, it's solid, it's reliable and there's this technique which we can guess means something technological and blind us with science a bit. But on the other hand, there isn't a product name there. People could just as easily think you were talking about a Volkswagen or a BMW, and indeed many people do, I think.

John Hegarty5:27

Well, I d I'm not sure about that. I think that that it has become associated with Ardy very strongly because they've stayed with it. And I think from that point of view it's it's therefore worked.

Presenter5:36

But why aren't brand names more important these days? I mean, in the old days when we had Powell Meat for dogs or Purcell Washes Whiter, we were all left in no doubt as to what product we were supposed to be going out there and buying. These days everybody knows this couple, the soap opera coffee commercial. Everybody knows that they're beginning to have an affair or whatever and everybody can't wait to see what happens to them next. But do they know whether the coffee is made by Maxwell House or Ness Cafe? Well I think they do know.

John Hegarty6:02

Uh

Presenter6:02

Snap. Cafe

John Hegarty6:02

Actually, I think they really do. And I don't think sort of clients would go on investing money in it if they think it wasn't working. So in the end, the balance sheet takes over. It is a commercial business. It's not a pure art form. It is a commercial business. So it has to respond to commercial needs. And if it's not working, if people can't recall the brand name, then of course your advertising is failing.

Presenter6:21

And things like that are checked out all of the time.

John Hegarty6:23

All the time, yeah.

Presenter6:24

Second record.

John Hegarty6:25

I've moved on to jazz here. I mean, rock and roll died in 1958, I think it was. Buddy Holly was killed in a plane crash. Elvis Presley went into the army. And people wrote it off and said, well, that's the end. That was an interesting little interregnum, that. That was rock and roll. What next? And I was then sort of beginning to think about going to art school and it was all becoming terribly intellectual. And jazz emerged. And we all started really listening to jazz. And one of the, to me, one of the great exponents was Theolonius Monk. And he believed in this thing called quarter tones, where he played either side of the note and therefore created a very distinctive sound. And I think the tune of his that most depicts that is Blue Monk.

Presenter8:05

Thelonious Monk and Bloom Monk. How did it all begin for you, John? When when did you or somebody else spot that you were an ideas man or could kind of look at things from an original angle?

John Hegarty8:16

Well, I was at Hornsey Art School and I had a wonderful tutor there, a man called Peter Greene, and he sort of observed that I was really probably the worst painter that had ever crossed the threshold of Hornsey Art School, but that I was very much kind of about ideas and I was fascinated by ideas and how they worked and communication. And he suggested that what I should do

John Hegarty8:37

Was to go to design school, become a designer, and and that I almost had a sort of commercial application for my thinking. And he sort of then said that the place to do that really was um the London College of Printing. And it was there that I then had uh another lucky encounter with a man called John Gillard, who was teaching there, who talked about advertising. And I hadn't even really thought about it, although it was surrounded me. I hadn't even noticed it. And he showed me some work from an agency then in America, New York, called Dordane Birmberg, and they were doing the advertising for the Volkswagen Beetle.

John Hegarty9:11

And he showed me this this press work, and there were thoughts in it, like it's ugly but it works, with a picture of it. And it all of a sudden it was like a switch being thrown on in a darkened room. Th tha it suddenly felt that I thought, That's exactly what I want to do. Here is something that's

John Hegarty9:26

intriguing, involving, it's clever without being elitist, it's stimulating, it has integrity, it's telling the truth about the product, it's not trying to hide it, but it's doing it in a way which is sort of capturing the imagination.

Presenter9:39

Do you think that it did have integrity? I mean, a lot of the adverts in those days were not entirely honest, were they?

John Hegarty9:45

Not at all. I mean, I think that's why you ignored it, um because you knew it was just basic nonsense. And I have to say, even today, sort of, I I, you know, think ninety percent of what we see is rubbish, but then it was even worse, it was ninety nine points. But rubber.

Presenter9:57

But rubbish rubbish by what standards?

John Hegarty9:59

Just sort of rubbish in that it's just sort of banal, stupid, it's not done well, it kind of presumes that the the people who are looking at it watching it are idiots and they don't understand and where they do. So I mean we've moved away from it being dishonest because now there are all sorts of legal things that you had to go through before you're advertising you accepted.

Presenter10:19

But I wonder if some of the things you label as banal actually did work. Uh I mean, I I can remember from when I was young that all those

Presenter10:28

little jingles, you know, w you wonder where the yellow went when you clean your teeth with Pepsodent or Friday night is a Marmee Night. Th they stick with you, you see and I mean, here I am still remembering these things, so they must have worked.

John Hegarty10:34

Yeah.

John Hegarty10:37

I think so they must have

John Hegarty10:38

Of course. I mean, it doesn't mean to say that that banal things don't work. I mean, after all, Puppet on the String won the Eurovision Song Contest. It doesn't mean it's a great song. We know those things work. They work on an aggravating level. But I think if you're doing something, you want to do it

John Hegarty10:52

superbly. You want to do it as to your the best of your ability. And actually you want to go home at night and say, Yes, I did that. You know, when I turn the T V on, I want my kids to know that I've done that commercial or we've done this poster or that print ad. I don't want to sort of sort of mutter to myself, Well, yes, we did it and I would rather not admit to it.

Presenter11:10

So are you saying that in those early years, when you were at art college in the sixties, that you saw that there was a lot of banality around, but that you spotted that something

Presenter11:20

really rather impressive could be done about advertising.

John Hegarty11:23

Absolutely. I think also that we were looking at that remember that period of time, you had people like Andy Warhol appearing on the scene, David Hockney coming out of the Royal College of Art, and they were using modern idioms to express their creativity. I mean, they were not sort of delving into classical kind of structures. So the idea that you could merge both culture and commerce was becoming more prevalent. And for me, advertising was the ultimate way of doing it.

Presenter11:51

Record number three.

John Hegarty11:52

Record number three has to be from the sixties, Bob Dylan. I mean he was for me the first sort of poet songwriter that really made it into the chart scene. And I've chosen Subterranean Homesick Blues just because I think it's absolutely wonderful. And also in it he created what has really been sort of identified as the p first pop video when he wrote all the words of the song on card and just stood there tossing them down. So it has all sorts of connections, but it's just a wonderful song.

Speaker 412:25

Johnny's in the basement mixing up the medicine I'm on a pavement thinking about the government The man in a trench coat blouch out laid off Says he's got a bad cough wants to get it paid off Look out kid, just something you did God knows when but you're doing it again You better duck down the alleyway Looking for a new friend The man in a coonskin cap and a pig pen wants $11 bills You only got

Presenter12:50

Bob Dylan and Subterranean Homesick Blues. You got fired from your first advertising job, didn't you, John?

John Hegarty12:56

I did, yes. I was at an agency uh well, we shouldn't we shouldn't go into that really. It was very interesting actually. I I was obviously a complete pain in the bum. There's no question about that. Because I really thought I

John Hegarty13:08

knew it all and and kind of uh had a kind of vision about where I was going, which to a certain extent I was right. But obviously I hadn't learnt how you put that forward in a in a sort of reasonably complex structure, which any organization is.

Presenter13:22

You hadn't learnt to be diplomatic.

John Hegarty13:23

I think diplomatic is the word I was groping for though, yes.

Presenter13:26

Wasn't there also a chap called Saatchi working there who also got got the sack?

John Hegarty13:29

Well, no. The long story there is that that after I was there for about three months, the uh the then creative director, a a very lovely man called Jack Stanley, came in to see me and said, I've hired this chap, uh, writer, for you to work with, see what you can do. He's sort of a bit sort of unruly like yourself, and uh you may make something of his talents and he may make something of yours and I sort of said, Well, what's his name? He said, Something like Charles Saatchi and I thought, Oh gosh

John Hegarty13:54

But he's probably Italian and lives at home with his mum and can't spell. And I was it was right about kind of living at home with his mum, but he wasn't Italian and uh and and he certainly couldn't spell either. Uh and he nearly got fired for not getting uh the spelling right in an ad. But Charles didn't get fired, no, he went on to uh greater things as well, as we all now know.

Presenter14:11

But but you and he joined forces again a few years later, did you?

John Hegarty14:14

That's right. He then uh went off and and uh in a sort of roundabout way uh joined up with an art director called Ross Kramer and they set up a consultancy in sort of sixty seven, I think it was, called Kramer Saatchi and asked if I would go and work for them there, which I did. And that was the foundation of Saatchi and Saatchi, the agency, which started in nineteen seventy.

Presenter14:32

And one of the clients there was the Health Education Council, and that gave rise to a very memorable ad, didn't it? The Pregnant Man.

John Hegarty14:39

Good.

Presenter14:40

Tell me how that one

John Hegarty14:41

Was born to quit race. It was actually done by Jeremy Sinclair and Bill Atherton. And we were sort of given this brief about contraception. How could we do something on contraception? And up to that moment, sort of, you know, one had seen sort of dreadful posters about don't get pregnant and things like that, which kind of fine, no, I won't, you're jolly good. And it didn't really make men think about it. And the whole idea was somehow it was the chap had to think about it. And we were sort of all of us working on ideas, and Jeremy and Bill had sort of come up with this thought of the pregnant man. And Charles and Ross looked at it and said, Yes, that's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And we must go and sell it straight away. But for me, it was a wonderful example of how you invert logic, and how, when you invert logic, you make something make a lot more sense. The idea of having a pregnant man suddenly made

Speaker 215:28

Man.

John Hegarty15:30

You think about the issue in a very different way, in a much more meaningful and memorable way, and then when you put a line with it which said would you be more careful if it was you that got pregnant stopped you, and you had to think about it again. So although it was talking about the issue in a in a very simple way, it was doing it in a way which captured your imagination.

Presenter15:47

That's the point about the best advertising slogans, really, isn't it? They are simply simple.

John Hegarty15:52

Yes, absolutely. And it's that but it's that twisting, and I think great creativity does that. I mean, it it twists the logic to such an extent that that that it captures something in your imagination.

Presenter16:03

But how long does it take you to think up this this witty, simple, honest idea?

John Hegarty16:07

Oh, God, it takes ages. I mean, I we sometimes sit in our rooms sort of with the door closed for for weeks on end, trying to think of something that's very di different and distinctive. I mean, sometimes it just comes to you in a flash. I mean, certainly with Levi's, it it was a sort of long process, but then when it happened, it all began to fall into place, and it all began to happen in very, very quickly.

Presenter16:25

Let's have another piece of music.

John Hegarty16:27

Right, the the next piece is uh Smokey Robinson, The Tracks of My Tears. The words are just absolutely beautiful. It was written, produced and obviously sung by Smokey Robinson and shows that that you know people kind of often dismiss pop music as being pap. And I think also with this it shows how you can write something that's very populist but also has an intensity to it that if you get into it has even more going for it.

Speaker 416:51

Uh

Speaker 416:58

No, no, no, it's a

Speaker 417:00

So take a good look at my face

Speaker 417:05

You seem a smile, and smart place.

Speaker 417:10

In the close side season to chase the jacks of Matthew.

Presenter17:21

Smoky Robinson and the Tracks of My Tears. When was it, John Heggarty, that you met mister Bartle and mister Bogle?

John Hegarty17:27

Well, I met John and Nigel in in nineteen seventy three when we were put together, so to speak, to start the London office of a a European agency called TBWA. And we quickly developed a rapport and eventually ended up being the sort of management team of that agency.

Presenter17:42

They also had the other necessary qualification for advertising name, which is they had funny names. Bartlebird look, Heggarty. I was looking up other Low Howard Spink, Delaney, Fletcher, Sleighmaker, Bozel. I mean, if you were writing a television sitcom, you wouldn't think up more peculiar names. It is a

John Hegarty17:57

It is a cult, isn't it? Yes, people wouldn't believe it. Well, the reason it happens is obviously when you're starting an agency, it's about the people. I mean, after all, it it is a people business. And the thing that you're trading on when you first start is the reputations of those people. So naturally, their names go above the door, so to speak. But gradually, as you grow and develop, you become an organisation with a culture and its own sort of life force. And then you gradually recede into the background. So we sort of call ourselves BBH now, really, which is much easier and simpler to cope with. And I'm always hugely embarrassed when I hear my name pronounced because I hate it, really.

Presenter18:32

So together BBH, as we shall call them, have created, as we've heard, the the Audi ads. Tell me a b about the Levi five One's ad, which you mentioned that suddenly the idea came and it happened quite easily.

Presenter18:45

Is the total concept yours, or do you just think, I know, let's have a guy who goes into a laundrette and takes his trousers off?

John Hegarty18:51

Well, no, the the total concept is never one person's. You're always working uh with other people. In fact, creative teams obviously by that definition are teams. They're a copywriter and an art director. So you you're bouncing ideas off each other all the time. So you can never really say where an idea comes from. You feel that perhaps you're driving it

John Hegarty19:09

I sort of went home and I suddenly thought about this other aspect of jeans which was the idea of we used to sort of do it when I was at art school, we used to sort of rub pumice stone on them to sort of get them right, to get them looking good, because they were

Presenter19:46

Stonewall.

John Hegarty19:47

Stonewashed. Well, it was late latterly called stonewashing. We didn't call it that then. We just used to sort of rub them with stones. And I thought, wouldn't it be wonderful if I had a chap going into a launderette to do it? And it just really grew from there. And the whole thing then fell into place.

Presenter20:00

But what uh the the Levi series, and obviously it it it went on and now he's in the in the pool hall, isn't he, gambling his jeans wear and and also there was the one where they they tried to tow the car in the desert using the jeans as a tow rope and so on. That whole series of adverts. What what they've done really is set a whole fashion, not just selling jeans, but they've also sold music, they've sold a whole style.

John Hegarty20:05

That's right.

John Hegarty20:20

It did dictate a fashion. It did dictate a kind of music style and a whole look.

Presenter20:27

But the music got into the charts, that's the only thing that's going to be.

John Hegarty20:28

And the music got into the charts, absolutely.

Presenter20:30

And chaps were m dressing up in that kind of James Dean lookalike sort of way. Didn't it also uh signal the change from boxer shorts to wife runts?

John Hegarty20:38

Well, no, the other way around actually. I don't know about this thing. It went from YFRANTS to boxer shorts. And there's a very funny story about that, actually. When I wrote the commercial, I actually had him in WyFrance. I didn't really think about it. And it was the governing body who vet all the scripts who said, we're not too happy about this chap being in my fronts. It seems to us a bit rude. So I said, oh, all right, well, we'll put him into boxer shorts then. Let's just have him in box. You know, that seems a bit, you know, like sort of swimming trunks, really. And they said, fine, that's okay. So really, the whole rise in fashion of boxer shorts comes from the IBA saying we don't like a chap in WyFrance. So restrictions can sometimes be very profitable.

Presenter21:16

Next record.

John Hegarty21:17

The next one has to be from really the Levi's series. And I've done sort of two things here. It's Stand By Me, but I've actually chosen John Lennon's version of it from his rock and roll album, which John Lennon to me was one of the great musicians and singers of my sort of formative years. And I just had to sort of put them both together here because I've only got eight tracks. So it's just a wonderful drum. We did actually use it by Benny King in one of our commercials, but this is John Lennon's version.

Speaker 421:43

Um

Speaker 421:45

Don't be afraid.

Speaker 421:47

Just alone.

Speaker 421:49

It's just name

Speaker 421:51

Stand by

Speaker 421:54

And all in all and stay.

Speaker 422:00

Stand by me.

Speaker 422:07

Stand by me.

Speaker 422:10

Stand by me.

Presenter22:13

Stand by Me, sung by John Lennon. Is there such a thing as the perfect advert, John?

John Hegarty22:18

I think certain commercials do get close to touching something really wonderful. And I think for me, one of the those commercials would be for Heineken, the Lago, and it's one called Water in Majorca. And it's at the School of Street Cred. And it's a play on Pygmalion. And they're trying to teach the girl how to not talk poshly, but how to talk with Street Cred and say not Majorca, but Majorca. And it's a wonderful observation. I mean, in sixty seconds, they get into that commercial, the whole kind of structure of British society, how it's obsessed with accent, how there is them and us, how now that's possibly inverted, where it's cleverer to be street cred and talk with a cockney accent, and where the girl is dressed as a Stone Ranger and how they're convincing her that she should now talk like this. And it's a beautiful observation. The dialogue is just wonderful in it.

Speaker 222:32

And it's

Presenter23:11

Serial ads, of course, capture the public attention, don't they? We we've mentioned the the the coffee series. What about Maureen Lippmann and the British telecom campaign? That has to be one of the most successful ever, doesn't it?

John Hegarty23:21

Oh, incredibly so, yes. And again, I think great advertising doesn't live in a world called Adland, you know, that's sort of where the family's perfect and mum does all the cooking and dad comes home at six o'clock and the kids are all sitting round the table and everything's happy. It lives actually the more it lives in the real world, the more interesting it becomes. And I think the idea of Maureen Lippmann as this sort of Jewish grandmother talking to her grandson about, you know, passing his exams and telling him he's got an ology, God, you've got an ology, you must be a genius, I just think touches a nerve that we all understand. And I think that's what makes it great. I mean, it it relies on true real experiences, not ones which are created in Somebody's daft imagination.

Presenter24:00

So that it's ultimately quite ordinary and, as we keep saying, quite simple. Isn't there a danger, then, when you start using words like great and perfect and art forms? That's dangerous territory, isn't it?

John Hegarty24:12

It is. I mean, I think you've got to be very careful about that. I think that in the end, it is a a commercial enterprise. In the end, I am there to sell a client's product. So you've got to be careful about describing it as an art form. But I do I

John Hegarty24:26

I mean, it is a sort of conflict one has in oneself that I think you can see how in sort of fifty, sixty, seventy years' time it it will

John Hegarty24:33

give us a remarkable insight into society. I mean, I'd love to be able to sort of look at Victorian commercials, if there were such things. I think you'd know so much more about Victorian society.

Presenter24:45

Let's have some more music.

John Hegarty24:46

Record number six is again a a jazz track and it's Sketches of Spain by Mars Davis. And this was a remarkable series of musical collaborations between Mars Davis and Gil Evans who was the arranger. And in this particular album they they came together and took traditional Spanish melodies and songs and uh created jazz tracks out of them and it's just it's just a wonderfully evocative and emotional piece of music.

Presenter26:08

Miles Davis from his album Sketches of Spain. Who's your best critic, John? Who's the one you listen to, or the several you listen to?

John Hegarty26:16

Well, I think one has all sorts of critics because work is researched and everything like that. But the one I think that the ones that I respect most are my family, actually. My wife Kari, who's not in the business at all, she teaches Keep Fit. I sort of call her the voice of a thousand consumers. And I do take work home and show it to her and say, what do you think of that? And she will unequivocally give me her opinion without any kind of appendage of kind of art or what you're trying to do or what the strategy was or any of that. She just looks at it and says, I like it or I don't. She'll tell you if it's

Presenter26:50

She'll tell you if it's rubbish.

John Hegarty26:51

She'll tell me absolutely if it's rubbish and and uh f certainly on Levi's, both my uh children, Lila and Elliot, have been uh great aides in sort of music and uh certain sort of characters that we've used within the commercials about what do you think about him or her or?

Presenter27:05

They're aged nineteen and seventeen. Nineteen and seventeen. Yes. But I was going to ask you how you keep up with the trends, because in order to set trends in the way that we've discussed you have with Levi's, you've got to be up there. You've got to know what's in the top ten. You've got to read the cult magazines. You've got to know what's going on. That's hard work.

John Hegarty27:06

Yeah, yeah.

John Hegarty27:19

It is actually, but um one I think uh it's funny enough, I mean it it sounds odd to say it, but actually having Elliot and Lila, two children who are of that age, is a wonderful insight into that sort of whole culture. But I think the other thing you do is you just keep that your your minds open. And I think if you can do that, you don't necessarily have to like things, but you become aware of them and understand that it's moving certain people and it has value in things. I mean every if something is big, if it really catches on, it does have a value. What you have to do is find that value.

Presenter27:49

But can you go on staying open? How long can you go on staying open? I mean, you're now forty seven. Can do you think that when you're fifty five you will still be in touch with the twenty year old market and what they like and what they're thinking and what they'll buy?

John Hegarty28:01

I think everything in life is trying to make you do the opposite of what you should do. It's like my wife says, as I say, she's Keep Fit, she said, the one way of looking younger is to stand more upright. As you get older, you should stand straighter. Well, of course what life's trying to do is draw you back down again, isn't it? It's trying to make you hunched, it's trying to make you and you find that in everything in life, that really what you've got to do is virtually the opposite of what you believe you are doing. So that you know it's it's like in sport, isn't it? When I go skiing, the one thing I'm I must do is lean down the slope to go slower, but that's the last thing in the world I want to do. And it's everything in life is like that. So I think remaining open is the secret.

Presenter28:40

But should you fight it? I mean, should you not give in with dignity and become lower and hunched and slowly older and more clothed?

John Hegarty28:45

Moody

John Hegarty28:46

More closed. Not at all. As you become more experienced, you should become more open, more aware, more sensitive to things. But yes, you can do that and maintain your dignity.

Presenter28:55

Record number seven.

John Hegarty28:57

Record number seven is a great favourite of mine, Bob Marley's Redemption Song. I think Marley represented a nation and tried in many ways to bring his country and the factions within it together. Redemption Song for me has got such power and emotion in it, you you can't not listen to it and almost not cry.

Speaker 429:15

Won't you hear Justin?

Speaker 429:20

The Sons of Freedom.

Speaker 429:23

That's all I ever have.

Speaker 429:28

Redemption songs.

Speaker 429:32

Redeem sham Uh Uh

Speaker 429:35

Uh

Presenter29:37

Bob Marley's Redemption song. You've described yourself, John, as a well-educated working-class boy. Do you think that that that background has been important in your success?

John Hegarty29:46

I think it has actually. I think the advantage of coming from a working class background, understanding, knowing, living with people and seeing their aspirations and their kind of concerns and their kind of dreams, has helped me tremendously in being able to talk to clients about how you talk to the mass of people in this country. So I think it's of great benefit, and I'm eternally grateful for it, really. You end up living in nice, wonderful Highgate in a very nice part of London, but I mean people can easily say you've lost touch, but you remember those moments in your life and they do have kind of great significance for you.

Presenter30:24

Your parents are both dead now, but um d did they approve of your success? Did they approve of advertising? A lot of people don't approve of advertising, do you?

John Hegarty30:31

I think I'm not really sure about my father. My father only ever said two things to me which I've really remembered. One, he said to me, the best thing I can give you is an education, because that can't be taken from you. And the other thing he said to me was, never trust a man who wears white shoes. And to this day I've kind of remembered that. I understand the education, but I'm not sure about the man in white shoes.

Presenter30:52

Have you met a man in watching?

John Hegarty30:52

I've met lots of people in white shoes, and actually, by and large, I think he's right, really. There's something distrustful about it. My mother certainly approved of it and was fascinated by it. And there is a lovely story that she was a school secretary in North London at Finchley Catholic Grammar School. And the boys there would always talk to her, but she was a very open and warm person, and they would sort of tell her their problems and things like that. And there were two particular boys who were sort of obviously not going to do very well in exams or whatever it was, but they were very interesting and wondered about what they should do with their lives. And my mum said to them, Well, you know, my son's gone into advertising, and if they can employ him, they can certainly employ you. And these two boys did go into advertising and have made a huge success out of it. So thanks to my lovely mum.

Presenter31:37

But you couldn't make a huge success out of it if you didn't believe in it, could you?

John Hegarty31:40

I think you've got to believe in it. I think that's absolutely essential. I think whatever you do, you have to believe in what you're doing, otherwise it shows through. And it's like the music I've chosen. I think everybody has tried to write something that they believe in, and that's what carries it over time. It carries it through time. The sort of further you are away from its creation, the more you see that. The more you see the integrity of the thought and idea that that person was putting into the music.

Presenter32:05

Shall we have your last one?

John Hegarty32:06

Well I had to select something by Brian Ferry because I just think he's a terrific singer and tremendous stylist. I've actually chosen a a very little known track of his, When She Walks in the Room. It's from his album The Bride Strip Bear, which I don't think was actually a huge critical success. But I think he's a wonderful ballad writer and a great singer, and again writes at his best writes wonderful music and words, and this one particularly I like.

Speaker 432:34

And your faith

Speaker 432:35

Weather friend

Speaker 432:37

Failed to speak.

Speaker 432:41

I've been so afraid still water's running deep

Speaker 432:49

And they don't understand.

Speaker 432:52

You're pussy.

Speaker 432:56

That you can see the wood for the tree.

Presenter33:03

Brian Fairy and When She Walks in the Room. Which of the eight, John, is the one that's most special to you?

John Hegarty33:09

Well, I think it has to be Stand By Me by John Lennon, just because I think it combines the wonderful words, When the night is come and the land is dark, And the moon is the only light you'll see, Darling, will you stand by me? I just think they're just powerful words. And it's sung by John Lennon, who I think for anybody of my generation was a very

Speaker 233:21

But just

John Hegarty33:29

Powerful man and someone who we always associated with. So that's the one for me.

Presenter33:34

Right. And the book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare.

John Hegarty33:37

My book is a wonderful book called The Crock of Gold by James Stevens. And it's a beautiful book about philosophy, about life, about theories, about imagination, about how we confront issues and how we debate them and argue them. And it's just a beautiful book to have around. And if ever you feel a bit low, you just pick it up and read a bit. And there's a lovely line in it, and it says what the heart feels today, the mind understands tomorrow. And I've always remembered that as being very meaningful and powerful. So that's my book.

Speaker 234:07

And a luxury.

John Hegarty34:09

Well, my luxury. I think I'd take my clarinet. I imagined myself at one time of being a sort of musician, and uh played the clarinet and saxophone extremely badly I mean, really appallingly. And I think if I'm stuck on this desert island I'll have plenty of time to practise, so I might become rather good at it.

Presenter34:18

Yeah.

Speaker 234:18

Uh

Presenter34:26

John Higgerty, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

John Hegarty34:30

Thank you, Sue.

Speaker 234:37

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.