Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty eight, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My castaway this week is a man whose love of the past has not prevented him from being very much a man of the present. He's a historian, a specialist on the seventeenth century. He was a professor at Oxford, and master of a Cambridge College. But it was as an expert on Hitler and the Third Reich that he came to wider attention. It was he who pieced together the evidence which proved Hitler had killed himself.

Presenter0:54

Latterly he again became involved in the fortunes of the Fuhrer when he said he thought the so called Hitler diaries were genuine. He is Hugh Trevor Roper, now Lord Dacre of Glanton.

Presenter1:06

Where is Glanton, Lord Dacre, and why did you choose it for your title?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:11

I was born in Glanton.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:13

It's a village.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:15

At the foot of the Cheviot Hills in Northumberland, on the right side of the Cheviot Hills,

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:20

And I'm very fond of it, and indeed I'm very fond of Northumberland, and particularly that part of Northumberland.

Presenter1:27

And are your pursuits country pursuits other than your academic pursuits?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:32

Well, uh I used to go hunting uh uh and uh uh I was very fond of fishing. I don't do a I I stopped hunting a long time ago. Uh can't I when I look back on it I wonder uh it seems that I was mad. But well, such an absurd pursuit. But uh uh I d did greatly enjoy it.

Presenter1:53

So you could hunt and you could fish on the island. Could you kill if it meant survival?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:57

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)1:59

I'm rather opposed to killing now. I don't

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:03

Don't want to kill anything.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:05

I would feed on shellfish, perhaps. Uh I don't think they have much sensation, you know. And uh tropical fruit.

Presenter2:13

What sort of mood will you be in in your castaway state? Will you be frantic or philosophical?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:20

Well, philosophical rather than frantic, I think. I don't mind being alone, although.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:27

Uh it when one's alone, it's nice to feel that one can at will terminate one's isolation. I think life will be rather dull.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:36

Uh I would not like the diet that

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:39

I've selected.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:41

I will need to be cheered up.

Presenter2:44

And will music do that for you?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:46

Some music would, certainly.

Presenter2:49

Can we hear your first record?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:51

Well, uh, I think

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)2:54

Mozart is a composer who always lifts me up. He has that quality of that ethereal lyrical quality, which is what I really want. And perhaps we could have something from his piano concerto, number twenty-seven, in B flat major.

Presenter4:12

Mozart's piano concerto number twenty seven in B flat major, played by Vladimir Ashkenazi with the Philharmonia Orchestra.

Presenter4:21

Lord Dacre, you won a first in classics and a first in history at Christ Church, Oxford. Were you always a scholarly little boy?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)4:30

Oh, yes, yes, I was always fond of books.

Presenter4:34

Where did it come from? W w was it an academic family?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)4:37

No, no. I don't think any of my forebears have ever been academic.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)4:44

I had a very good governess.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)4:46

And I remember my first lessons and I remember how delighted I was at discovering the pleasure of reading, finding that one could enter this new world through reading. And I've always loved reading.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:04

And then I was rather a solitary child in some ways, and uh I was very fond of the country and of nature and uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:11

Uh and uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:13

I I lived uh rather enclosed in myself, I suppose.

Presenter5:17

And is that childhood of of Hugh Trevor Roper, is that still with you? Do you feel you still know that little boy and all his sensitivity?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:24

Oh yes, yes, I know him quite well, I feel.

Presenter5:29

Was he a nice little boy?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:30

Oh, horrible, I think.

Presenter5:32

In what way?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:33

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:34

unsociable

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:36

Self-contained

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:39

Hadn't many friends.

Presenter5:41

And have you changed much, do you think?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:42

Oh, I become much more sociable now.

Presenter5:47

And what were your ambitions then as a little boy? What did you in intend to make of yourself?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)5:53

I don't think I ever knew. Life, I consider, is a series of disconnected accidents.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:00

And I've drifted along, really. If there was any articulating chord in my life it has been love of books and of reading.

Presenter6:11

Shall we have your second record?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:11

I mean

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:12

A singer whose voice I've always loved is Kathleen Ferrier.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:17

who died tragically young.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:20

I would like to have something by her on my island.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:24

Uh perhaps I could have her s uh singing some handel. I was very fond of handel when I was young.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)6:30

And still am. Perhaps we could have Ombre Maifou from his opera, Zerce.

Speaker 47:24

Bye.

Speaker 47:29

Health and the music.

Presenter7:36

Kathleen Ferrier singing Ombre my Fou from Handel's Xerxes.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)7:41

Of course I like the robust handle, too, who's quite different but on my island I want that that's what I mean by that lyrical quality, that touch of melancholy which uh lifts one out of the the world uh rather than uh jollies the world along with one.

Presenter8:00

Can I, though, now remind you once more of your past, and ask you when it was you first became interested in Germany and in Hitler?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:10

My first interest in Germany was purely literary.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:14

I learned German as an un as an undergraduate in order to read a German scholarship.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:21

But then

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:23

In order to improve my German, I went to Germany, and it was Hitler's Germany.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:28

And

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:29

Uh this was in nineteen thirty five, and I found it v very disagreeable. I was so repelled by it that I became anti-German, and I pretty well allowed myself to forget uh German.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:44

uh and Germany, until Munich in nineteen thirty eight. And then I realized that uh Germany is not going to go away. Hitler's Germany is not going to go away merely by being uh forgotten.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)8:56

So I then started studying it seriously. I read Mein Kampf and I saw war coming and I thought one one's got to know about it.

Presenter9:07

So war broke out. Um you were twenty-five at the time and you joined up. Did you um did you expect to see it through?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)9:13

Oh, well, you know, one one just didn't know that uh one was caught up in uh events quite beyond one's control, and one lived from day to day.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)9:23

And uh uh by uh I had a territorial commission, but I I was swept aside into the intelligence world uh and uh uh spent my my war in that world. It was a world of which I knew absolutely nothing. It was a pure accident that I found myself there. But uh uh and then it was a pure accident I was transferred to MI6. So what did you do? Uh oh well uh uh I'd be in the possession of Peter Wright if I start telling you what uh what I did. I'm uh not taking that not taking that risk. Anyway, I was in intelligence. I was in secret intelligence during the war.

Presenter9:57

And you worked alongside a chap called Philby and a chap called Blunt.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)10:01

Oh, yes.

Presenter10:02

Of whom more anon, because I'm just going to ask you to pause there and tell us what your third record is.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)10:08

My third record, I still I'm still seeking this elevating, slightly melancholy uh beauty, which is what I love in music. And I would like Mozart's uh song Trauricheit from the Enführung ausem Serai.

Speaker 410:34

So we

Speaker 410:35

Uh

Speaker 411:03

I felt it wouldn't turn off and wrong.

Speaker 411:11

I stayed with all seemed to walk with me.

Presenter11:28

Editor Gruberva singing Traurisch Keit from Mozart's opera Die Infurung aus dem Serai, with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter11:41

Anthony Blunt and Kim Philby, two of your colleagues in MI Six, Lord Dacre, how did how did they strike you then?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)11:51

I liked Kim Philby liked him very much, actually.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)11:54

He was a jolly character who ha I had many tastes in common with him. He was highly sophisticated, well educated, had a sense of humour, and a certain rue character which I liked. He was a good drinking companion.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:11

Uh no, I liked him very much.

Presenter12:14

Sneak.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:15

Andy Runt, he actually he was not in MI fi uh six but in MI5, but I knew uh it was the department in MI5 that I dealt with.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:23

I didn't like it, frankly.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:25

I thought he was snooty, condescending I've no doubt he disliked me. But I didn't like him.

Presenter12:33

Now both of them, of course, we now know were double agents at the time, weren't they?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:38

Yes.

Presenter12:39

Did you suspect?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:40

Yeah.

Presenter12:41

When did you first suspect?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:44

Well, once Burgess and MacLean had uh bolted, I suspected them both.

Presenter12:50

Did you do anything about it?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)12:51

Oh, no. I mean, you know, I had no uh absolutely no evid no evidence which wasn't uh available to the authorities so that uh there was nothing I could have added. I mean, they suspected.

Presenter13:05

When you finally knew about Philby's treachery, were you entirely horrified, or was there part of you, because you you knew the man, that understood?

Presenter13:16

Why he had done it and how he had done it.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:18

Well, I was Wasn't that surprised?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:22

Because there'd always been a mystery about Philby.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:25

Oh.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:26

That is, I knew.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:29

that he had been a Communist.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:31

And I was astonished.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:33

that he had been accepted in MI six in a department which was really paranoid about communism.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)13:43

And it se it seemed to me inconceivable that they would have accepted him if they had known that he was a Communist, and I think they didn't. I think they genuinely didn't. So and I wasn't I wasn't going to say anything about it, naturally, so I was. But there was a this paradox at the back, and if there was one paradox, there could be another paradox, and so I wasn't all that surprised.

Presenter14:06

But it must have been a chilling feeling to discover that some one you had liked, as you said, and worked alongside, was all of the time deceiving you, deceiving everybody, leading a double life.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)14:17

Yes, that's what I don't forgive uh Philby. I mean Philby can argue uh about uh questions of public loyalty, but uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)14:28

The Cambridge d doctrine, as I understand, the doctrine of the Cambridge spies was that there are higher loyalties than uh to one's government.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)14:39

But that higher loyalty, apparently, in their language, was to their friends. But he betrayed all his friends. I feel that by their own logic they condemn themselves.

Presenter14:48

Did you correspond with him at all in Moscow when once he was ensconced?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)14:53

No. He wrote to me uh once, but I didn't answer.

Presenter14:58

Why not?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)15:00

I knew anyway that any correspondence with him would be controlled. It wouldn't be a genuine correspondence, but anyway I didn't wish to have any further dealings with him.

Presenter15:11

Let's have your fourth record, if we may.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)15:15

Well, my fourth record, uh I want some park.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)15:19

And I think I would like uh sheep may safely graze.

Speaker 415:34

I cool the field.

Speaker 415:43

Burning sage of my joy.

Presenter16:25

Sheep may safely graze from Bach's Kantata No. two hundred and eight, Vassmir Berhagt, Emma Kirkby, with the parley of instruments directed by Roy Goodman and Peter Holman.

Presenter16:37

Lord Dacre, you first came to wide public attention, international attention, as I said earlier, with your book, The Last Days of Hitler. How did you come to write that?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)16:48

Well, I was just told to oh well, no, that's not quite true. Uh in two stages. First, in nineteen forty five, in september nineteen forty five,

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)16:59

It's difficult to remember this now, or to think of it. Hitler had disappeared from all human

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)17:05

Knowledge for over four months, nearly five months.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)17:09

And it was a problem. Uh the Russians had conquered Berlin.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)17:14

and uh they couldn't find him. He di he disappeared into thin air. And uh the Russians were maintaining that he was in Spain or in the Argentine.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)17:24

and the press were speculating, and finally the Russians accused us, the British, of keeping him alive under our protection for use against them. And that was the last straw, and my commanding officer decided to

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)17:41

find out the facts. It was ludicrous that these facts had not been established. And he asked me to do it. And it was a you know, it was a challenge, an opportunity, and I did it.

Presenter17:53

So you went around Germany talking to everybody who might know something, and you it was sort of detective work, really.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:00

Yes. Well, I did it quite systematically. I worked out who would have been with him at the end. That I could do by questioning those who had left.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:12

Uh and there there was a period of ten days which was

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:15

Total blank.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:17

But I found out who were there.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:20

And then I set about discovering these people, or as many as I could, either in prison camps or tracing them in their homes or elsewhere in if they were in hiding.

Presenter18:32

And you found his will and his marriage suit.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:34

Yes, that was afterwards. That that well, I made I made a report, uh an official report, on the first of November, nineteen forty five, in Berlin. And that theoretically ended that mission.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)18:46

But afterwards the m machine of inquiry which had been mobilized start w went on producing uh results and uh then uh that the next winter uh I was fetched out again and uh I discovered uh two copies of Hitler's will and the marriage certificate of Eva Braun. One was hidden in the false bottom of a trunk in a farmhouse in Bavaria and the other was buried in a bottle in a back garden in Iserlohn on the Rhine.

Presenter19:20

But is that what you enjoy? Is that the best?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:22

And you'd also enjoy it, I must agree, it did.

Presenter19:24

But is that part of your love of of history, piecing together facts?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:29

Well, it is exciting for a historian to

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:32

Uh discover documents.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:35

And

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:36

to piece things together and to reconstruct the past and try and make it live.

Presenter19:44

The historian as sleuth. I mean, if only more schoolchildren saw it that way, they do have a rather dusty image of history, don't they?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:51

Yes, I'm very sorry that they do, and I think that historians are partly responsible because they've made it dull.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)19:57

All the great works of history were written by amateurs, uh, before the study of history was professionalized in universities.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)20:06

And since it's been professionalized, they've dried it up. These professionals settle down on smaller and smaller areas. And this, of course, is the way that any science advances by subdivision of labor and specialization. One mustn't despise it. It's the necessary way of advance.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)20:27

But still professionalization can be carried too far, so that it becomes a sort of a boring private subject for the specialists themselves only, who forget altogether about the the public.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)20:40

I would like people to feel that they're part of history, to see the deposit of history around them, to feel the flow of history, the movement of it and themselves in it, and not see the past as a a dead deposit, but as a living continuity.

Presenter21:01

Your fifth record, please.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)21:03

I don't really like Wagner. I try every now and then. Uh he's a he was such a monster, if one reads his personal life, and uh he has been so uh involved in the whole Nazi period that uh one does sometimes hate him. But I have learned to keep

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)21:24

separate individuals from the misuse that is made of their

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)21:28

Work. And I think that Wagner we must admit, is a great musician, great composer. And

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)21:37

There are passages in Wagner which I love, and for instance the the C treaty though.

Presenter22:45

Part of Wagner's Siegfried Idl, played by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra under Herbert von Karian.

Presenter22:51

So, Lord Dacre, you you went back to a a blameless academic life in Oxford after the war. That must have been um a bit dull after all that.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:01

Uh well

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:03

Uh it was different.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:06

But I enjoyed it.

Presenter23:09

And in fact, you were given the top job in your sphere in in nineteen fifty seven. You were made the Regis Professor of Modern History. Were you surprised to get that?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:18

Yes, I'm always surprised at anything that happens to me, and I never know quite how it happens.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:24

Uh but uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:26

Uh I naturally enjoyed it.

Presenter23:28

There was some controversy though, wasn't there? I mean some some of your critics thought it should have gone to AJ P. Taylor.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:34

Perhaps it should.

Presenter23:38

You seem to enjoy controversy, it seems to me. I I mean, you've had more than one brush with AJ P. Taylor, actually, haven't you?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:44

No, that's totally untrue.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:46

Alan Taylor is an old friend of mine, and I we have more often agreed than disagreed. I only disagreed with him on one subject.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)23:57

And that was on the

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:00

Uh Origins of the Second World War.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:03

On that I still disagree with him, and he I think still disagrees with me.

Presenter24:09

Of course the the greatest controversy was uh the one surrounding the so-called Hitler Diaries. Um now how did you get involved in that?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:16

Oh, well, I was wrong on that. I made a mistake.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:20

Uh but I don't I wasn't quite as wrong as uh I was made out to be.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:25

Uh however, that's a disagreeable episode.

Presenter24:28

Did you feel your integrity was impugned?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:33

Well, I was made a scapegoat, I felt, by people who

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:37

themselves bore the initial responsibility for misleading me.

Presenter24:42

Is there, though, an impulsive streak in you, do you think, that sometimes takes over from the meticulous historian?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:50

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:50

I am sure that what other people say about me is right.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)24:56

I think it is very difficult to know oneself, and my policy now is to agree with everything that anybody says about me.

Presenter25:04

Let's have your sixth record then.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)25:07

I would like to move forward in time and uh have Ravel's pavan for a dead inventor.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)26:18

I love that that melancholy touch.

Presenter26:22

That was Ravel's Pavan for A Dead Infanta, the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Claudio Abardo.

Presenter26:29

You are, Lord Dacob, by your own admission, um, not just an enjoyer of melancholy, but um very philosophical, very fatalistic. Are you going to sit back on the island and just see what happens by, or are you going to try to escape?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)26:46

Oh, I don't think I would want to stay there for ever.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)26:51

I'd want a lot more gramophone records if I if were to.

Presenter26:54

They're quite chunky ones you've got here actually.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)26:55

We've got here.

Presenter26:58

You have spent the last um seven years, until your retirement last year, as as master of Peterhouse at Cambridge College, after twenty three years at Oxford.

Presenter27:09

Um they elected you, and you you wrote a couple of years ago. I expect they're regretting it now.

Presenter27:16

Why do you say that?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:19

They they generally do. Dons are like that.

Presenter27:23

But did you enjoy being master of Peterhut?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:27

Yes.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:28

I made friends there.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:31

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:32

uh among the the fellows and

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:35

uh the undergraduates and the servants.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:39

And it's a very attractive college.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:43

All colleges have their

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:45

problems, you know, but I enjoyed it.

Presenter27:49

But do you feel perhaps that um you should not have left Oxford for Cambridge and would have done better throughout the

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)27:56

Oh no, because I wouldn't then have learned what Cambridge is like.

Presenter28:01

And what did you learn at Peter House?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)28:03

Well, I learnt that Cambridge is very different from Oxford.

Presenter28:07

Right.

Presenter28:09

Then I shall ask you for your seventh record.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)28:11

That lyrical quality which I so love I find particularly in twentieth century composers in Bela Bartock.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)28:23

And so I would like

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)28:25

Uh a piece of bar tock, please.

Presenter29:27

Part of Bartock's Concerto for Orchestra played by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra with Sir George Schulte.

Presenter29:36

Now, um, Lord Dacre of Glanton, in the county of Northumberland, you have a voice in the Lords. Do you use it much?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)29:43

Not much.

Presenter29:44

Why not?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)29:46

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)29:47

Other people are always so willing to talk.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)29:51

Uh and uh know so much about the subject that uh uh there I

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)29:59

Uh don't find it necessary to speak much, but I go and listen and vote and I occasionally speak.

Presenter30:06

It's not because you've run out of opinions.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)30:08

Oh no, oh no

Presenter30:11

So what kind of um issue really motivates you? What what debate have you made a point of turning up for?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)30:18

Well, I turned up uh except when I was abroad for the uh recent educational reform bill. Uh I didn't speak on it because uh I concerted with my friends and uh um on the whole I'm in favour of the government legislation and uh there were other people who would speak better on the amendments, which I agreed.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)30:40

When there was debate on the uh s uh secret services, that's a subject on which I turn up.

Presenter30:47

They say you're a wayward conservative. Is that how you would describe your politics?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)30:54

Well, uh I believe what they say, does my laugh.

Presenter30:58

I shall rephrase that. How would you describe your political standing, Lord Dacre?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:05

I I am a Conservative. I take the Conservative whip.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:09

And I agree.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:12

uh with the policy of misses Thatcher, which I admire,

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:16

In most things.

Presenter31:18

The process of history, of course, includes the pursuit of power. Is that something that you've never had a desire for?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:27

I don't think I have.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:29

No, I'm really a an observer rather than an an actor in uh uh politics.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:37

I don't wish to exercise power.

Presenter31:39

What do you wish now to do with your life in your retirement?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:45

Improve by

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:47

Crumbling Mind

Presenter31:50

And how do you set about doing that?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:53

Oh, by reading, studying.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)31:55

Listening.

Presenter31:57

Are there books which you still haven't written which you might be going to?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:01

There are many books which I still haven't written, which I would like to have written.

Presenter32:07

What are they?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:08

Oh, I never say I make a rule never to say what I'm working on, because it always changes before it comes out.

Presenter32:15

Or someone else might pinch the idea.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:17

We'll have it first.

Presenter32:18

Yeah. Yeah.

Presenter32:19

What about your memoirs? Might you write those?

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:22

There are people who uh suspect that I'm.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:26

Writing memoirs.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:28

And I don't do anything to

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:32

Ease there uncertainty.

Presenter32:34

So you might be revealing some secrets about somebody at some point.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:41

No, no, I would be very discreet.

Presenter32:46

Let me ask you for your last record.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:48

Well, we haven't had any Beethoven, who is, after all, the greatest of them all.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)32:53

So perhaps we could uh end uh uh since we're thinking of uh rural solitude with the opening of the pastoral symphony.

Presenter34:09

The opening of Beethoven's pastoral symphony, Court Mazur, conducting the Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra.

Presenter34:16

Well, Lord Dacre, now you must choose which of your music is most important to you which of those records you need most on the island.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:25

It's a terribly difficult choice.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:27

But I think

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:29

In my reflective, melancholy mood I would like the Ravel.

Presenter34:36

And your book. You have, as I am sure you know, you have the Bible, and you have the complete works of Shakespeare.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:43

Well, I think I will have the the works of Virgil.

Presenter34:49

You must have read and reread them many times.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:51

Yes, but there are not many books that one can re read.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:55

Uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:56

And uh

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)34:57

I would be happy with them.

Presenter35:00

And finally, your luxury.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)35:02

Has one already got pen, paper, and ink?

Presenter35:04

Certainly not.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)35:05

Oh, well that's my duxery.

Presenter35:06

That's it. Endless supply of

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)35:08

Yes.

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)35:09

I'd like to add a little crate of champagne, but uh if is there

Presenter35:15

But if I

Lord Dacre of Glanton (Hugh Trevor-Roper)35:16

Well but if I have to choose it is the pen, paper and ink.

Presenter35:19

Alright, well we might sneak a kind of couple of bottles up the corner of the box with the paper. A couple of crepes. Don't tell anyone.

Presenter35:27

Maurice, and we look forward to the memoirs. Lord Dacre of Glanton, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 335:40

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.