Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty eight, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week, at first glance, appears to be in the classical mould of the English Conservative politician. His father and grandfather were both MPs. He was an Eton scholar, President of the Cambridge Union, and took a first in history. But he's also written a string of popular thrillers, vows that one of his favourite television programmes is Dynasty, and, perhaps most surprising of all, has managed to remain loyal to two political enemies, Edward Heath and Margaret Thatcher.

Presenter0:59

And none of this has prevented him from achieving high office. He is the Home Secretary, the Right Honourable Douglas Hurd, MP.

Presenter1:08

Mr. Heard, it seems to me that the problem with being Home Secretary is that everybody thinks they can do your job better than you can. We all know about it.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd1:15

Indeed, I am not starved of advice. The problem is not that you don't know what to do, because there are millions of people writing to you every year telling you exactly what to do, because everybody is his own her own Home Secretary. I mean not everybody thinks they can be Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I think most people think they can be Home Secretary, and probably a better one than me.

Presenter1:33

So you've got all of us breathing down your neck, and and the whole of the Cabinet breathing down your neck as well.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd1:38

Yes, they don't breathe quite so heavily, because uh on the whole they know enough about it to know it isn't quite so easy.

Presenter1:44

Well, I want to talk to you about your job in in more detail in a moment, but but let me ask you first. I mean, you must be going to enjoy leaving all of that behind you and escaping to the island.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd1:53

Oh yes, yes, I I certainly would. And I think a little bit of solitude for a time would do no harm at all.

Presenter2:01

Now how have you chosen your eight records?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd2:03

Well, I try to um I like a good deal of noise. It's not a very refined taste, I'm afraid you'll find. A good deal of noise and um

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd2:12

But working a bit through my life and the and the records tunes I've enjoyed during it.

Presenter2:18

that bring back memories.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd2:19

That bring back memories. Yes, they all do that, every single one.

Presenter2:21

Let's have the first one.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd2:23

Well, the first one we w we were brought up in a white farmhouse under the Wiltshire Downs, and there was a very dark brown gramophone.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd2:31

And not a great many records, but with the seventy-eight needles you have to be very careful not to put the used ones back in the little tin with the dog on it, you know? Because if you did, as we did, then you found you were using a used one again, and that was not entirely good. Even for Tales from the Vienna Woods, which is my first one, which I remember vividly, got very scratchy towards the end of its life.

Presenter3:38

Strauss's Tales from the Vienna Woods, Johann Strauss Orchestra of Vienna, conducted by Vily Boskovsky.

Presenter3:45

You say you lived in Wiltshire. Was it an idyllic childhood?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd3:48

Yes, well, looking back, it was. We were very happy and

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd3:53

My father tenanted a farm, about five hundred acres, and it's a small village, and we knew everybody, and uh it was just great fun.

Presenter4:03

Kites to Boggins

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd4:04

Kite stabgins, um jubilee bonfire on one down, coronation bonfire on the opposite down, because wife getting her knickers caught in the wire. I mean, those are the things one remembers.

Presenter4:14

A country child. Oh yeah.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd4:16

Oh yes.

Presenter4:17

I I have, I must say, reading about you, an image, despite that happiness, of a little boy who was a bit buttoned up quite a podgy solemn child, I read.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd4:26

Yes, there were three of us, and um we weren't great ones for parties. We had to be dragged to children's parties rather.

Presenter4:34

Your father and your grandfather, as I was saying, were were MP s before you. Is it true that you and your brothers were used to put off the opposition?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd4:42

Oh yes indeed. In the thirty-five election when I was five and the others were younger, we were dressed in um bright blue coats and put in the front row of the Liberal meeting in the in the village hall. And we were bit and buttoned up and we just gazed at this amazing lady. She had red hair and she ran my grandfather quite close, but I think probably we did put her off astride that evening.

Presenter5:07

It was perhaps really quite inevitable in the end you should end up in politics, wasn't it?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd5:11

Well, I was always, you know, fascinated by it. My grandfather he campaigned by telling stories round the villages about Lady Astor and Jimmie Maxton. I mean, he he enjoyed himself, and so did my father. Th they were they were not ruthless professional politicians, and I don't really think I am either.

Presenter5:30

But did they tell you that one day this is what you should do?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd5:33

No, indeed they did not. Indeed, my father later on said, for heaven's sake, whatever you do, don't go into politics straight from Cambridge, because no one will be in the least bit interested. You don't haven't got anything interesting to say.

Presenter5:45

And indeed you didn't, as we shall hear. But first let's have another record.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd5:49

Well, the next one is from uh Eton. My eldest uh son Nick was married in the college chapel there last weekend, and as I sat there I I remembered the amazing noise which used to come from that organ. Uh and not just from the organ, but from a uh chapel packed with boys I mean compulsory chapel, no nonsense, and making a great deal of noise, particularly on All Saints' Day.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd6:13

The thing about this hymn for all the saints is that it has several loud verses at the end, and of all the days in the year, it was the day when we really

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd6:22

worked ourselves absolutely into into a furore of of splendid noise, and Doctor Lee, the organist, led us and made us do that, and I shall always remember that.

Speaker 46:42

God saves

Presenter7:26

Vaughan Williams' Hymn for All the Saints sung by the choir of Canterbury Cathedral.

Presenter7:32

Now, Mr. Heard, you you were up at Eton during the war years, forty two to forty eight. What kind of effect did the war have on Eton?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd7:39

Well, it was very different from what it is now. I think mainly because uh nobody had any money they could spend. We were all out at elbows. And um scholars like me and whose parents didn't have any much in the way of financial back up, it simply didn't matter. It didn't show you had your you didn't have pocket money. You could there wasn't much it was ration and you couldn't spend it on much. And I think that relieved some of the tensions which you sometimes get otherwise.

Presenter8:06

You s you're saying your family was not a well to do family?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd8:09

No, it wasn't. I mean, my father was a tenant farmer, and uh he never quite managed to get enough money to buy the farm, although he earned a good deal of money later in his life. At that time we we was definitely not well to do.

Presenter8:24

Now you were a scholar, as as you said, you you were um a bit bright. Did did you suffer as a result of that from the other brother?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd8:31

From the other boys? No, not at all. It goes in ebbs and flows, I think, in m in most schools. But at that time there was no uh it wasn't a reproach that you were good at passing exams. It went all right. I I got more sociable uh uh as as I grew up there. I think that was one of the things the school did for me. It did uh open me up a bit and got me friends who are still

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd8:52

There. And so I blossomed a bit while I was there.

Presenter8:58

And then he went off to Cambridge and blossomed some more.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd9:00

Then I yes, I I I think if I I would love to have a year or a couple of years of Cambridge over again, I I would do it differently.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd9:09

Um, I'd enjoyed it very much. I loved going back. But I what I I really think in a sane system you'd have a couple of years, um, at that age and then you'd keep a year um for use when you were forty five or fifty five.

Presenter9:23

When you could appreciate it, yes. Who were your contemporaries at Cambridge?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd9:24

Oh yeah.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd9:28

Well, there was a chap called Geoffrey Howe, and there was a chap called John Biffin, and there were Julian Slade on the musical side, John Barton on the acting side, who got me into a play, and which I remember, though I was not at all good at. So there were there were plenty of lively folk.

Presenter9:45

And did you spot them then, the Howes and the Biffins? Or, more importantly, did they spot you as potential politicians?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd9:51

Well, we were in g we were in the Cambridge Union and we made speeches at each other and stood against each other in elections. Yes, so I suppose so.

Presenter9:58

But you never dabbled, uh like so many people did in those kinds of years in in a spot of left wingery.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd10:05

No, I never did. I never did. Um

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd10:09

It it never really tempted me. It it was very unfashionable in those years. We were reacting hard against the post war Labour Government and we used to there were two general elections while I was up at Cambridge and we used to go out into the villages of Cambridgeshire, which was then a Labour seat, and heckle the Labour candidates ruthlessly. One of them was quite wealthy and had a butler, and so that gave us some scope for heckling from them.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd10:34

How's the battle they're going to vote? You know, that kind of

Presenter10:37

And inevitably, as we've said, you got a first, inevitably you went straight into the FO, of which more and none. But first, let's have your third record.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd10:45

Well my third record is my first foreign posting. I was very lucky in the Foreign Office. I had three splendid cities. I was sent to, Peking, uh New York and Rome. Peking uh was very adventurous in those days. There were very few foreigners there. And there was one tune which ran through those years uh from a revolutionary opera called The White Haired Girl.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd11:08

Um, and everywhere you went in a train, visiting a temple, you tended to find this tune coming out at you through the megaphone.

Speaker 411:46

Come here, mother, cheer, watch time and mother watch.

Presenter12:08

Part of the White Haired Girl, the singer was Ju Feng Pooh with the orchestra of the Shanghai School of Dancing. So it's nineteen fifty four and Our Man Hurd is third secretary in Peking. It must have been a fascinating time.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd12:22

It was. I'm very impressed you got that record. That is a bit of a test. It was. There were very few of us.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd12:30

We used to um venture abroad climbing mountains, climbing the western hills, particularly in the autumn and the spring outside Peking, and trying all the time to push further afield and seeing when we'd get stopped, when we'd be prevented from going any further. And we used to see Mao um twice a year

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd12:49

On the Tiananmen, the gate of heavenly peace, which you've if you've seen the The Last Emperor, the film, you'll remember it. And he used to present himself with his cloth cap, take off his toth cloth cap, go to the east end of the of the uh balcony, way, way above us, and then to the west end, and present himself to million people in the square, just as if he were the son of heaven. It was an amazing ritual, revolutionary ritual.

Presenter13:16

Now you went from Peking to the United Nations in New York, so you were a young man about town in Manhattan. Glamorous stuff.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd13:24

Yes, it that was great fun too. It was very hard work, the UN. It was Suez time when we were in great trouble. And um the amount of paperwork and the amount of meetings meant there was a bit of a a limit on the on the high life.

Presenter13:38

Not much social life.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd13:39

Well, no, we did have social life, and one of the nice things was that the Metropolitan Opera then was run by Rudolph Byng, who was a who to whom this country had behaved very well, and he used to ring up sometimes on the afternoon and say anyone from the British delegation want a seat in my box to night?

Presenter13:56

Let's have your next week.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd13:57

Well, this is one I did. It's still my favourite opera, and it's one I heard Callus sing there. She sings the mad scene. Of course, when Callis is singing, it goes on practically forever. But then when she's finished, and the last act, the tenor who was in love with her and when he realises it's all ending in tears, he stabs himself, but doesn't actually die before he's produced what I think is a a very splendid tune.

Speaker 414:23

Sorry.

Speaker 414:31

Many faithful.

Speaker 414:35

Law Sadir Moina in

Speaker 414:50

Why not shall warm my blood by love?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd14:51

Yeah.

Presenter15:19

Luciano Pavarotti singing Obella alma in Amorata from Donizetti's opera Lucia di La Mamur, the orchestra of the Royal Opera House, Covengarden, conducted by Richard Bonning.

Presenter15:31

Fourteen years you spent in the diplomatic service. Um why didn't you stay? You'd have been an ambassador. Wonderful life.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd15:37

Well, lots of people said I should, and it's certainly true. My friends are now ambassadors and enjoying themselves like mad. And from the financial point of view, because in those days there was no way of transferring a pension or anything, it was crackers to leave. I think the thing about the Foreign Office is that it starts being fun, and I certainly enjoyed my fourteen years very much. And I think it ends being fun, but there's a bit of a dry patch in the middle into which I was just getting. And politics had always been sort of buzzing away in my head anyway.

Presenter16:09

So in in the middle of one of these dry patches you wrote to a chap called Edward Heath.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd16:13

I wrote to quite a few people, a banker and two or three people, and um said

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd16:20

sent a telegram in a very characteristic style, sort of saying, Fly back at once, you know. Um so I was rather impressed by that. No one had ever done that before. So I did, and that's really how I started working for him.

Presenter16:31

And you immediately got on, you two.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd16:33

Oh, I'd known him I'd met him before, which is why I I wrote to him. Um no, I don't think we did immediately get on, because it uh it it took a bit of time. But then I began to run his office as leader of the opposition, and then when he won against everyone's expectation, the 1970 election, and um we we sat there and we were clearly winning, and he said, Well, you better go to number ten, hadn't you? And I said, Well, I don't know I mean, what am I? What am I to say? Well, you don't you know, I mean, you're going to be my political secretary, you just go and say that I mean it's perfectly simple. And that's how that four years started.

Presenter17:05

And you still get on, you still see each other.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:06

Yes, I see I see him. Not as much as I would wish, but I have a very uh

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:12

Happy recollection of those years

Presenter17:15

And what do you say to him now these days when he's been particularly critical of your present boss? Do you just change the subject very well?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:20

Yes, I don't. We don't we don't uh talk about that. We haven't talked about that for for years now.

Presenter17:26

It is of course the received view that that your having been so long and so dedicated a Heath man, um, that it it didn't do you a lot of good with misses Thatcher, and that as a result she kept you in the middle ranks for longer than she might have.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:39

Oh, I don't think that's really right. She gave me a chance very quickly. I mean, I I was put on the front bench when I'd only been in the commons for a couple of years. And uh no, she I think she always treated me with great uh

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:51

Um courtesy and and encouragement and the years you're

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd17:55

But I don't complain about. The years you're mentioning, when I was number three and then number two at the Foreign Office under Peter Carrington and Francis Pym, were idyllic. I mean, that was a marvellous job.

Presenter18:04

This is a marvellous job. But one wouldn't blame her. I mean, it's understandable, isn't it? It's always difficult to trust somebody else's man, particularly if you don't necessarily align with that man.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd18:14

Prime Ministers trust loyalty.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd18:16

And they don't on the whole warm to people who, you know, don't aren't loyal to people who've helped them and encouraged them. And I think the Prime Minister was aware of the fact that I'd sort of, you know, stood by Ted and indeed voted for him in our leadership contest. And that was right and natural in her book as well as mine. I really don't think that's been a difficulty.

Presenter18:41

I I won't ask you to compare the relative merits of your two Prime Ministers, because I'm sure you wouldn't.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd18:45

I'm sure you would.

Presenter18:47

But let me ask you this. You once said Britain cannot be governed dogmatically, only by the consent of people with widely differing opinions. Now do you, can you, still believe that?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd18:59

Yes, I do uh believe that, and I think that what has happened

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd19:04

I mean one of the successes of this government is that it has actually mobilized a lot of people in different professions. I mean not necessarily to vote conservative, but at least to talk in the same sort of terms as the government and the prime minister have been talking. I mean that's one of the very noticeable things that's happened in this country. So we've shifted what Keith Joseph called the common ground. We've shifted it, but I mean it's still there and we still have to cap on it. Your fifth record please. My fifth record, well this is again New York Days, which were the heyday I think of the American Music Hall.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd19:39

And uh Ethel Merman, I think, was the best of the various uh rather large ladies who stood in the middle of the stage and and belted it out. And I think Call Me Madam is is the best of the shows which I remember her in.

Speaker 419:52

I've a great big bar and good caviar, yes the best that can be found. And a large amount in my bank account when election time comes round. Entertaining vodka drinkers is a job they give to me. Making nice guys out of stinkers seems to be my cup of tea. What they really need behind the iron wall is the hostess with the hoosters on the bar.

Presenter20:24

The hostess with the mostest from the musical Call Me Madam sung by Ethel Merman. Douglas Head, have I asked you are you going to try and escape from this island?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd20:32

Well, not for a bit, I don't think. Um, as long as you provide reasonable comforts. And also because I wouldn't be a great one at constructing a boat or doing anything particularly technological to get me off. But after a time I would, of course.

Presenter20:45

Could you survive there? Could you build a shelter? Could you hunt for something to eat?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd20:48

I could just do that and and uh my needs are very simple.

Presenter20:52

Now, y you're married now for the second time. Um you have three grown up sons from your your first marriage, and now you have two very small children, Philip and and Jessica. How old are they?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd21:02

Well, Philip was uh five this week, and Jessica will be three in August.

Presenter21:07

I see. So you you had a um a son who married at the beginning of one week and a a son of five.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd21:11

Oh yes, a a a a whacking great uh bridegroom and uh a l a little boy and a little girl dressed in uh yellow holding up the the the the the the train.

Presenter21:21

Is um is parenthood easier the second time around?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd21:26

I think what's tolerance of noise is less, actually. I do try and get away from the noise, but fortunately five and rising three, yoop, I think we're past the worst now.

Presenter21:37

Don't you believe it?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd21:38

Yeah.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd21:39

The fifth birthday party this week was a bouncing party. I don't know if you you've had them in your in your town. Yes, conjurers are out. What you need is you have a large number of children and a suitably gooey cake, and then uh you just put them to bounce up and down and they do that for hours, bashing each other occasionally. So you have to keep an eye out, but it worked very well.

Presenter21:44

Is it a trampoline?

Presenter21:58

But are you stricter now, or are you soppier?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd22:02

I think that on the whole I worry less.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd22:06

Um

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd22:08

and therefore sort of flash out at them less. I'm soppy about the little girl, who's the first little girl in my family down that line for a long, long time, and I think we'll we'll have to watch out that she doesn't get a bit spoilt.

Presenter22:20

Now you live in the country and and you are by by all accounts well looked after. Your wife is what you've called a tie straightener.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd22:27

She's a tie straightener, yes. I mean, even today I said it's radio, you know. No, no, you've got to have your tie straightener. She's a tie straightener, but she doesn't like me saying that, so let me change that subject.

Presenter22:37

Yeah.

Presenter22:37

Pretend we didn't say it. How do you cope, nevertheless, with the strains of office? I mean, as we've said at the beginning, it it is the most arduous job. I mean, you cover everything from street violence to drugs, inner city violence, capital punishment last week.

Presenter22:52

It's to you we turn for for the answers, and do you lose sleep at night?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd22:56

I don't lose sleep at night, and I think that's actually very important.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:00

And if I do occasionally wake up at night, I've taught myself not to worry or think about home office things in the middle of the night, because you'll certainly get them wrong. And I and I have I mean, the working day in the middle of the week is nine AM to one AM.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:12

Uh and at weekend it's much less. And you've got to punctuate that, you've got to vary that with things that you enjoy, the things that Judy and I enjoy. You've got occasionally to go to the theatre, go to the opera, go out, go to a dinner party with friends who are not political at all. Those are those are essential things. And every now and then in a year you've just got to go away and and do n go abroad, that means really out of range. And and we try and do all those things.

Presenter23:37

or indeed to a desert island.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:39

Yeah.

Presenter23:40

Your sixth record, please.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:41

My sixth record um is, I think, again a very good, a ripe piece of uh Italian opera, but I remember it particularly because we did play it.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:51

in the Chadler church uh when Julie and I were married uh six years ago.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd23:57

These term

Presenter24:41

The Easter hymn from Cavalleria Rusticana sung by the Bavarian Radio Chorus with the Munich Radio Orchestra conducted by Lamberto Gardelli, and the soloist was Martina Arroyo.

Presenter24:53

We haven't talked at all uh about your writing, your political thrillers. You've written nine books altogether. How did that start?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd25:00

It started in Rome um when I didn't really quite have enough to do, and I'd already written one serious book about China, a history book. Um but in Rome, Andrew Osmond and I, we were two young diplomats, and uh we decided, I remember in a hotel in Florence, uh that we'd try a thriller.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd25:19

And and so we wrote one, and it went quite well. And then we wrote two others, and then it started.

Presenter25:25

Some say that bits of them reveal a certain cynicism about politics.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd25:30

Well, this is the trouble about writing books, which if you've got to entertain people, it's no good being solemn about things. Um therefore you do tend to do a a caricature rather than a portrait.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd25:40

And you have to watch that a bit. You get you go for the easy laugh, you know.

Presenter25:44

There's one very good scene where a Prime Minister is is doing his reshuffle and he says, Oh, well, let's send him to Northern Ireland, get rid of him you know, let let's send this one to trade and industry, keep him quiet for a bit.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd25:53

Yes, there are several reshuffles uh through the through the books, several party conferences, a great many general elections. Um but I've tried not to make them too uh cynical.

Presenter26:03

Some would say that uh

Presenter26:05

You

Presenter26:07

Lack.

Presenter26:08

Popular appeal in the House that you will never become Prime Minister because you haven't got what they call a power base. What do you say to him?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd26:17

Well, it's very hard to answer that, isn't it? Um it doesn't feel like that. It feels rather like going round a racecourse and there are hurdles. There's a party conference debate, there's a capital punishment debate, there's the women's conference, there's the police federation, and there are plenty of things in the House of Commons, and you just clear the fence as best you can. And sometimes you do hear the crackle of the brushwood as you as you as you only just get over it.

Presenter26:43

That's your view.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd26:44

Um but that's what it feels like. And you don't spend at least I don't spend a great deal of time worrying about, you know, whether one's got one's power base or even what one's going to do next. I mean I've been very lucky and I do actually wake up some mornings and saying, Am I you know, is it really so that I'm Home Secretary? And sometimes when I realize I am, I think that's a good thing, sometimes I don't. But it really feels more like that.

Presenter27:05

But perhaps that's the difference between you and and the very, very ambitious people, that you don't care very much about.

Presenter27:13

The publicity stunts the populist approach. In fact, you might find that a bit vulgar.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd27:17

Well, I don't think it's I don't think it's vulgar, and I admire the people who do it well. Um I

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd27:25

Thinks that the

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd27:26

Interviewers, if I may say so.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd27:29

Give us a great deal more ambition than some of us have. I mean, I'm fifty-eight. I think I'm well past the peak of ambition. And I know quite a lot of people of whom that's also true. We don't actually spend all our time scheming and thinking how we're going to win this vote or that vote and strengthen our power base. It it it isn't really like that. We're really too busy to be doing that.

Presenter27:51

You're right. I mean, we always believe that everybody in the cabinet wants to be prime minister.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd27:54

Yeah, so it it really isn't so, particularly perhaps those like me who worked at number ten know what that's like.

Presenter27:59

However, I I do believe that you would not dislike being Foreign Secretary.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd28:04

No, I wouldn't dislike being foreign secretary. That's uh obviously true. But I hasten to add that, you know, I'm not actually sitting down every day and and and thinking how to realize that, because really uh if one's mind ever turned in that direction a new red box would appear and you'd just have to get on with what you've got now.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd28:22

Let's have your seventh record. Well, I'm a great fan of Andrew Lloyd Webber. And when I said this to my elder sons, they said, Oh, for God's sake, don't let's have Don't Cry for Me Argentina again. And so I've chosen another suitcase in another hall.

Speaker 428:36

Being used to drummer lying until

Speaker 428:43

But all the same I hate it.

Speaker 428:47

Wouldn't you?

Speaker 428:50

So

Speaker 428:51

Another suitcase in another hall Take your picture off another wall

Presenter29:06

Another suitcase in another hall from Evita, sung by Barbara Dixon. You once said, mister Hurd, that that between two and three years at the Home Office was quite enough. You've done two and a half.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd29:17

Well, I think

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd29:19

There is a limit to it, and I think three years is reasonable. On the other hand,

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd29:25

One gets less

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd29:27

uh scared of it as one goes on. Things which were definitely daunting at the beginning become less so. And of course at any given moment there are things you've got in hand, or things you're pregnant with, things you're about to do, that you'd like to see through. Uh fortunately the decision is not in my hands, and I'm rather glad that that's so.

Presenter29:45

But you're not feeling restless.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd29:46

I'm not feeling restless, um and I think there are things which we've got in train which I'd like to see more of.

Presenter29:54

It seems to me, listening to you, that there are really two Douglas herds. Perhaps there are more. The the one is very neat and quite diligent. I mean, you're you're a litter picker-upper, aren't you?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:04

How did you know that? Yes, I do. I am a litter picker up, I is. And uh I never quite know whether to train my

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:10

Children to do the same or not. There is a school of thought which said, Never pick up anything from the floor except money.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:16

Um but I do, I'm afraid, pick up Mars Bar wrappings outside my front door, yes.

Presenter30:20

The other is is really rather a it seems to me a liberal minded, very perceptive gentleman who really thinks that the world ought to get on with life exactly how it likes.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:30

Well, not exactly how it likes. I don't know. I don't know you can be a parent of five or anything that.

Presenter30:32

I don't know.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:36

No, I don't think that. I think I'm absolutely sort of

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:40

Down the line. I don't claim to be a great original thinker, but I think I'm.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:46

straight in the middle so far as the sort of conservative tradition of thinking in this country is concerned. That's what I was brought up in and that's what I I feel I am.

Presenter30:55

You're an old-fashioned Liberal Tory.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd30:57

I'm a I'm I've never liked being called a Liberal because most people who call me Liberal then go on to say, but if you were really liberal you wouldn't be doing X or Y. So I don't always politely rejected that label. But but Tory, yes, and and I hope of a of a of a tolerant and traditional kind. I mean that's what I believe in anyway.

Presenter31:15

Your final record, please.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd31:16

Well, I think one would want something gentle and comforting after a lot of the noise up to now. And um so I would like to have a bit, the last bit, in fact, from Foray's Requiem, which I heard in

Speaker 231:26

The last

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd31:29

Westminster Abbey a year or so ago and thought fitted that particular bill very well.

Presenter32:17

In paradism from the foray requiem with the Netherlands Radio Chorus and the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Jean Fournet.

Presenter32:26

And now Douglas heard the moment of decision. First, which of those records would you choose above all others?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:32

Well, I was going to give another answer, but having just heard that last one again, I'll choose that.

Presenter32:36

It's lovely, isn't it? Yes. After all that noise.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:37

Yeah.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:38

All that's great.

Presenter32:39

That's very good.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:39

Uh

Presenter32:40

Secondly, a book. Now you have the Bible and you have the complete works of Shakespeare.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:45

Well, I think it would have to be an anthology because I would spend a lot of time learning things by heart. And the best anthology I know is the Oxford Book of Twentieth Century verse selected by Philip Larkin. So I'd take that.

Presenter32:56

And thirdly, your luxury?

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd32:58

Well, I think it would be a case of champagne. I mean, will the Blue Lagoon be able to keep it cool?

Presenter33:03

Oh, and you could dig a hole and press the microphone.

Rt. Hon. Douglas Hurd33:04

Dig a hole and put it in the corner. I think so, as long as I could be sure of that, because I I would be there a bit of time. Birthdays, anniversaries, you know, you'd want to celebrate in a in a proper way, so please.

Presenter33:14

Absolutely. You shall have it all. And also our thanks, Douglas Heard, for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Speaker 233:29

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.