Rabbi Lionel Blue

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty eight, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a broadcaster, writer, and a man of God. To most people he's best known as a contributor to the Today programme on Radio Four, but he's also popular as an author of spiritual works and cookery books.

Presenter0:44

His popularity belies his learning, for although many people have come to know more about his faith through his chatty and infectious style, he is a notable scholar and an important public figure in the Jewish community. He is the radio rabbi Lionel

Presenter1:02

Rabbi Blue, have you always had the ability to entertain, to make people giggle?

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:07

No, actually, Sue, I was a very, very heavy child, and I had very little sense of humour, and really humour came to me with religion, and I remember exactly when it happened.

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:18

I was up at Oxford. It was a very grey day. I had had an unsuccessful love affair, and I was feeling very grey inside.

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:25

and it was raining, so I took shelter in a doorway, and the door opened, and I found myself in a Quaker meeting, and I thought to myself, What's a Yiddish boy like me doing in a place like this?

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:36

And then the various people got up, and they all started testifying, and I thought they were dotty.

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:41

And then when I went out I found myself giving away things, and suddenly I found myself really light and souffleish. You know, it had done a minor domestic miracle, so I thought there must be something in all this, you see. So I went on a sort of synagogue or church crawl, you know, all over Oxford.

Rabbi Lionel Blue1:59

And it did the trick, and it turned me from a very heavy person into a much, much lighter person, something I had never expected from religion.

Presenter2:07

I knew all your answers were going to be funny stories. I could feel it coming on. It has to be said your your thoughts for the day are often

Presenter2:14

Less spiritual messages, but they are stories and good belly laughs. Is is that your trick, to sort of hook people by entertaining them?

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:22

No, because I think not just that, Sue, because I think there's um

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:28

Jokes are not just joking matters.

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:31

They're terribly important things.

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:34

you know, which are said in them about prayer and faith and

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:38

and all sorts of things. For example, there's that one you know, of the man who jumps over a cliff, and as he's going down there's a little plant growing out the side, and he hangs on to it, and he says, If there's any one up there, put a give me a hand and help me.

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:52

And the voice comes from heaven, Do not worry, I will put my hand underneath thee, only let go and trust in me.

Rabbi Lionel Blue2:59

There's a terribly long pause, and then the man gives a second prayer. Is there anybody else up there? Well, that's a very profound joke, you see. But I think the thing I try to do on the radio programmes in the morning

Rabbi Lionel Blue3:13

is on a Monday morning people need some courage.

Rabbi Lionel Blue3:18

They need some courage to get out of bed, out of their duvet, and face the rate spill, the bus and all that sort of thing. And also they have to learn to love themselves a little bit, which people forget, because the Bible says you shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. And unless you live in charity with yourself, you won't have much charity for your neighbour either. And people are really wicked to themselves. They bully themselves, they dominate themselves, they nag themselves, but they're not very good at loving themselves.

Presenter3:47

Let's have your first record.

Rabbi Lionel Blue3:49

Well, my first record is Sophie Tacker singing Wade Shamama. Now I know it's sentimental and I know it schmelts, but it's also true, because I knew these women.

Speaker 43:59

My Yiddish Mam

Speaker 44:05

I need her more than ever now

Speaker 44:11

My Yiddish mama I'd love to kiss that wrinkled brow

Speaker 44:21

I

Speaker 44:22

Hold her hands once more.

Speaker 44:27

As in days gone by

Speaker 44:31

And that's gone.

Speaker 44:33

To forgive me for

Speaker 44:37

Things I did that made her cry.

Presenter4:41

My Yiddisher Mamma, sung by Sophy Tucker. And that reminds you, you say, Lionel more of your grandmothers, your boobas, than your mother.

Rabbi Lionel Blue4:49

Yes, when I was a kid my mother was in hospital for some time, and then she had to go out for work. I had a lovely mother and father.

Rabbi Lionel Blue4:58

They did their best in a very difficult time.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:01

And it was my grandmas, my boobas, that was the Yiddish word, who brought me up.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:06

And I especially think of my mother's mother. She was one of those ladies swathed in black shawls and, you know, the shoes were cut so that the bunions could come out.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:18

And um

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:20

I used to sit in her kitchen.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:22

because she hardly ever went out.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:24

And she used to give me her commentary on life in Yiddish and Cockney and White Russian.

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:29

and she taught me um cookery and kindness.

Presenter5:32

So it was really at your grandmother's knee that you learned all these all the story telling, sayings, beliefs, traditions that have stood you in such good stead?

Rabbi Lionel Blue5:42

Oh yes, the great difficulty was, of course, that they were given in a very medieval form, and when I was evacuated that whole world was literally blown up. I remember the bombs which came down and just it just blew me out of blew me out of that world. It ha I don't think I could ever go back to it. I mean if you gave me um a ticket and said, Lionel, would you like to go back to that old world?

Rabbi Lionel Blue6:08

Well, um I feel very moved by her walks. I'm nearly crying when I hear my shimmer, but the answer would be no. You cannot

Rabbi Lionel Blue6:16

not know what you've learnt, and I've learnt too much outside that world ever to go back into the limitations. And also that there was a lot of injustice and a lot of poverty there. Life wasn't easy for those grandmas, and I hope it never their all they went through doesn't happen to a future generation.

Presenter6:32

Let's have your second record.

Rabbi Lionel Blue6:34

Well

Rabbi Lionel Blue6:35

My second record is of Cicely Courtenidge singing Why has the cow got four legs. You see, when I was evacuated, I suddenly came to a tremendously different world from the East End. I was evacuated to real England, and the East End wasn't England, to the world of Joyce Grenfell and Cicely Courtenage, and there was a it was a lot lighter and more laughter than this sort of than these tragic Yiddish wails, you know, from the East End. And actually I think it has a metaphysical element too, because

Rabbi Lionel Blue7:06

It seems to me why has the cow got four legs? is a question one could ask of the whole universe, and there's really no answer.

Speaker 47:13

I want to tell you all about a problem that you can't find out. But though we go through mental strain, there's one little thing we can't explain. Why has a cow got four legs? I must find out somehow. You don't know and I don't know and neither does the cow. Is it a scream? I don't believe in love like a cow. Don't be silly, of course I know. A cow is an animal, and it's covered with brown white chintz. A whiting is a funny fish. It can't proceed as it would wish. It rolls downhill from north to south, with its tail ramp halfway down its mouth. Why has a cow got four legs? I must find out somehow. You don't know and I don't know, and neither does the cow. No, perhaps you're right. I brought a little dog in town. I called him Ginger, cause he's brown. I think that you would like him, perhaps. Does ginger bite? Don't ginger steps. Why has a cow got four legs? I must find out somehow. You don't know and I don't know and neither does the cow.

Rabbi Lionel Blue8:01

By the way,

Presenter8:11

Why Has the Cow Got Four Legs? sung by Cicery Courtenidge. So there we have this young Master Blue, as you describe, evacuated off to the West Country Be having been brought up in this very Orthodox Jewish household, presumably when you got to the West Country you had to eat what what you were given and be grateful, bacon included.

Rabbi Lionel Blue8:31

Yes, I remember my first um forbidden sausage, and I ate it and wondered what on earth was going to happen to me. And uh nothing happened actually. So I remember think it was I think I have another. But it was very, very difficult uh commuting cultures.

Presenter8:47

Where where does your your faith come in in all of this? You as a child, Lionel? I mean, did you were you a strong believer then?

Rabbi Lionel Blue8:54

No, I lost it. Um

Rabbi Lionel Blue8:56

I lost my faith. It was a

Rabbi Lionel Blue8:58

It had had too much of a bettering. I'd been to

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:01

About 16 different schools and homes during the evacuation period back in London for the Blitz.

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:09

There was too much muddle uh going round in my mind. There was just my mind was really like the rubble of London.

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:17

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:18

When my faith came again I had to build it myself. I had to build it from the ground upwards. It wasn't anything that I'd received either from the past or from heaven. It was a

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:31

Um my own handiwork.

Presenter9:33

Let's have another record.

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:35

During the war

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:37

You didn't have much chance for schooling, often during the Blitz there was only one hour a day.

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:42

So the real schools were elsewhere.

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:45

the lib public libraries were schools and another school actually were

Rabbi Lionel Blue9:50

To the end of the war, were the cafes in Swiss Cottage, which I found my way to during the vacation, because the whole of the Weimar Republic was there. And there were wonderful people who introduced me to the whole world of German cabaret and German art, you know, in the 1920s heyday. And it was really like a great box of chocolates which someone had opened the lid. And there was everything there, and I just sat and just listened to all that was going on. And I think that was my great education. Now, all of these people were in exile, and all of them

Rabbi Lionel Blue10:26

Had um an attache case, a piece of luggage, filled with memories.

Rabbi Lionel Blue10:33

Which of uh of Berlin.

Rabbi Lionel Blue10:36

And this song of Malena Dietrich with all its nostalgia.

Rabbi Lionel Blue10:41

Expresses their situation.

Speaker 410:44

Hey, shout down.

Rabbi Lionel Blue10:44

We have

Speaker 410:46

I'd like to

Speaker 410:49

In Delhi.

Speaker 410:53

Das Wagen Motor Nest Wend.

Speaker 411:00

This Arish Kito.

Speaker 411:03

The Gunned Sitan.

Speaker 411:14

He shall know ein and coffee in Belgium.

Speaker 411:21

Derblibtondas at sein and zinn.

Speaker 411:27

Aufdis Advisor

Speaker 411:30

Low sixty rises.

Speaker 411:34

Dem Benis den Zucha?

Speaker 411:38

Dan Fari Vider Hind.

Presenter11:45

Ich Habnoch einen Kofer in Berlin, sung by Marlena Dietrich. Wonderful atmosphere, Leinwell. I wonder.

Presenter11:52

Can you remember in the East End in in the thirties, can you remember those hearing those first rumors from the continent about anti-Semitism?

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:00

Oh yes, it was like living in a nightmare. There were always the refugees coming over, each one with a more terrible tale to tell, and also there were pretty dreadful things going on in the East End itself.

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:11

Um there was the time of the Mosley marches down the East End. I remember that uh

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:18

My father ended in trouble with the police, my grandfather was in a hospital.

Presenter12:22

Attacking the black shirts as they were.

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:24

Yes, there was a pitch battle in in Allgate, and I was carrying pails of water, you know, for an elderly lady who was going to throw them from her window.

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:33

And there would have been terrible trouble if they had managed to break through.

Presenter12:37

But what did your grandparents and your parents then say? What did they think? Could they believe what was happening?

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:43

Great.

Rabbi Lionel Blue12:44

Well, yes, they could, you see, because there'd always been the memory of pogroms in our family. Uh my mother's mother, her parents had been killed in a pogrom, and she'd been sent as an orphan to this country with a label round her neck, Searage. That's how she met my grandpa, who was trying to get to America at the same time, you see, to avoid th the conscription of the Tsarist army. So there was this history of of persecution.

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:08

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:09

It just made you feel that the that the world that the world hadn't changed. But it left me with a nightmare, and it still it still comes up. I still have this nightmare of that uh they're out to get me. I think it left every Jewish child at that time with a nightmare like that.

Presenter13:26

And who are they when you have that nightmare now?

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:31

Well, one of the important things to try and understand with the Nazi period is that

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:37

What did a one offer fear?

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:39

which is what we would like to believe, you know, a temporary aberration.

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:44

Or is it prelude to

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:47

to similar things.

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:49

And this we do not know.

Presenter13:51

And do you have can can you find in yourself any forgiveness for what happened?

Rabbi Lionel Blue13:59

I can tell you this. I

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:01

went the first two times I went to Germany.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:04

I turned back at the frontier.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:06

I just couldn't make it.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:08

And then when I did have thee

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:10

Carriage to go in

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:12

I found I liked Germans very much.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:14

They were

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:16

lovely people, and I found myself having to explain one generation to another.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:22

I found that

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:24

I was

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:25

Needed there.

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:26

The other thing is that, quite frequently in life,

Rabbi Lionel Blue14:30

You cannot um take the past and say I accept it all or I forgive it all or that sort of thing. The best thing to do is then concentrate on something else. There is so much real work you know to be done in the future that I've just concentrated on that and gradually the past has dropped into some kind of perspective. The greatest disaster would be to think that Nazis are only members of the National Socialist Party in Germany in the nineteen thirties. There's a bit in me, there's a bit in everybody else too, and unless one realizes that, then we're in for a rerun of the whole thing.

Presenter15:09

Let's have another record.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:11

I actually came across Rosencavalier through Desert Island Discs.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:15

And I thought to myself, good God, all these women are trying to you know, singing their gats, are trying to break through the sound barrier.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:23

And the music struck me rather like a chocolate clair, the creamiest chocolatey claire I'd ever found.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:29

But then I

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:31

Somebody showed me the words.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:33

And the words were by Hoffmann Stahl and are very great, and they were very, very important for me, because I've never been very good at human love. I've been probably better at the divine sort than the human sort. And in this trio it's it really they're really talking about all the problems of life and love. The Marshall Inn

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:52

In the October is saying.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:55

That's it.

Rabbi Lionel Blue15:57

You only learn how to deal with life really after you've passed it.

Rabbi Lionel Blue16:01

And just when you know what the thing's about.

Rabbi Lionel Blue16:06

It's gone.

Speaker 416:10

This is slow.

Speaker 416:28

Christmas pray for

Presenter17:07

The trio from Der Rosen Cavalier by Richard Strauss, singers Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Krista Ludwig, Theresa Stitch Randall.

Presenter17:16

Well, now, Lionel Blue, I want to talk to you more about your discovery of God and your faith, but let's just talk for a minute about your cooking, because it's a great passion, isn't it?

Rabbi Lionel Blue17:25

Oh yes, yeah.

Presenter17:27

Now, um are you going to be able to hunt and kill for food on this island?

Rabbi Lionel Blue17:30

Now, I've been trying to become a vegetarian for years. I was a vegetarian for about five or six years, but it was socially became quite impossible. But I still do not like eating battery farmed things, and I would like to have another go at it. So a desert island where I've got no social obligations and don't have to turn up at a dinner which the hostess has cooked for me and which includes, you know, duck and chicken and all that sort of thing and meat. I'd like to have a go at seeing if I can be vegetarian again. I don't really want to kill

Rabbi Lionel Blue18:03

my fellow creatures. I'd much prefer to be to be friends with them if I possibly could.

Presenter18:08

Right. Well now, in a a cookery book of yours I've seen there are some really what I can only describe as quite suspicious recipes. I mean aubergine schnitzel sounds okay, but there's garbage soup and remaindered mousaka. Doesn't sound too appetizing.

Rabbi Lionel Blue18:23

Well, I used to be a cook on the boat. I've got no sense of direction and no sense of balance, but I used to go sailing quite a lot because I fancied myself as a sailor and really enjoyed it. But I could cook a stew in a gale and I wasn't sick into it. I never ate it, I only ate bananas. And on a boat you you make do with what you can. You know, you put um it's surprising, you know, with a you used to we used to have loads of gin, so I used to flambay everything, and some gin over, you know, a a tinned pie going up in flames. Well, it's quite interesting, quite dangerous, you know, quite wonderful.

Presenter18:57

But as I understand you in the cooking, it's not so much necessarily the food, but it is the great social occasion of people being around the table, as you were saying about your childhood, talking, eating, being together in the home.

Rabbi Lionel Blue19:10

Yes, I like kitchen suppers.

Rabbi Lionel Blue19:13

not dinner parties, but kitchen suppers. And um you know, if I imagine what heaven would be like, it would be everybody sitting round a kitchen table with a lovely big pot, you know, full of flavor and uh talking and um

Rabbi Lionel Blue19:29

And everybody giving a hand with a washing up and that sort of thing. That's how I that's how really I would imagine heaven.

Presenter19:36

I see you write a cookery column for a Catholic newspaper, rabbi.

Rabbi Lionel Blue19:39

Yes, yes, I've had trouble with that, you see. I've wrote some recipes saying, you know, take some thin slices of smoked meat, which, if you're Jewish or Moslem, of course, it's smoked sausage or something like that. And if you're not Jewish or Moslem, well, you know what it is, too. And I put this in the recipes, letting everybody work it out themselves. And I got letters from most obscure places in the British Isle, Ireland, Scotland, all over the place. We've been to every grocery in our area looking for thin slices of smoked meat, and they say it's unobtainable.

Presenter20:14

Can I ask you for another record?

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:16

I like

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:18

extrovert religion you know and which is

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:22

Which is not a apologetic about

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:26

about its noise, its faith and all that sort of thing. And that's why sometimes in London I drop in to sometimes to um a West Indian church.

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:35

and you get some wonderful music.

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:37

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue20:39

If you do go into such a church, well, you might find yourself with something like this.

Speaker 420:49

Up above my head. Up above my head. I hear music, give me out. I hear music.

Speaker 420:55

Now up above my head, you know I hear music in the air, up above my head, and I really jubilee There's a heaven somewhere, heaven somewhere up above my head, up above my head, I see trouble in the air

Speaker 421:18

Up above my head, I see trouble in the air.

Speaker 421:26

Hey, I'm a trouble in the world.

Speaker 421:31

I really do believe, yes, I really do believe there's a heaven somewhere.

Presenter21:36

Up above my head I hear music in the air sung by Sister Rosetta Thorpe.

Presenter21:42

Lionel, are you are you a practical chap? Will you be building a shelter for yourself on the island?

Rabbi Lionel Blue21:46

No, I can't even meant a fuse even to day. I'm utterly, utterly hopeless at it. Um I'll just have to get along somehow, but um

Rabbi Lionel Blue21:56

I'm really no good at anything like that.

Presenter21:58

Will you be trying to escape, or do you think you'll lean back and enjoy it?

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:01

No, I think but temperamentally I'll lean back and enjoy it. Um I think that's the secret in life, uh to to c to carry on with the flow of things.

Presenter22:11

Let let's return to your your search for religion, because you went up to Oxford and and it seems to me that you experimented with every faith there was, other than the Jewish faith.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:21

Yeah, I did, and the result was with all these cultural um bits and pieces, I ended up with a superb breakdown.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:28

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:29

I remember.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:31

I was feeling awfully low. I just couldn't pit put all the fragments of my life together. It was like a jigsaw puzzle which just doesn't work out.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:39

and I was at a party in London.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:43

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:45

I started

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:46

singing a song which seemed to express how I felt.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:51

and it was an old number of Bessie Smith.

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:54

And then

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:55

A bloke came into the room and said looked at me and said

Rabbi Lionel Blue22:59

I think you'd better come and see me to morrow morning at ten o'clock.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:03

So I did.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:04

And he was an an psychoanalyst.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:08

A follower of Wilhelm Reich.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:11

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:12

An analysis started.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:14

in which for the first time I really got to

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:18

Know myself.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:21

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:22

It was

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:23

Like a revelation, you see

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:26

The Scriptures say the kingdom of heaven is inside you.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:30

The same thought comes up in Jewish and Christian Scriptures.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:34

Now

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:35

You cannot know more about God than you know about yourself, if you try to know God without knowing yourself.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:42

Because God is inside you, the kingdom of heaven is inside you, you'll only end up with fanaticism or folly. The two have to go hand in hand.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:50

You can't use the knowledge of God as an avoidance of knowledge of yourself.

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:55

So I went back to this chap,

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:58

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue23:59

Our sessions used to last sometimes eight or or nine hours. You know, I jumped through through early childhood trauma, you know, like a performing seal. But it really it really remade me.

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:12

And I ended up beginning to like myself a little, which I never had before and because I was able to like myself a little, I think I was able to like other people a lot.

Presenter24:24

And you returned to your Judaism through that experience.

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:27

Yes, I remember I said to the analyst, I said to him, you know, if I have this analysis, will my re n newly found religion go?

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:37

And he was very honest, he said, in so far as it's neurotic.

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:41

If if it's all neurotic, it will go. If it isn't, then it will stay. Well, the end of it was that my religion stayed, and he went off on a spiritual pilgrimage to India.

Presenter24:52

And you've never been neurotic since?

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:54

Oh yes, but

Rabbi Lionel Blue24:56

I'm very neurotic. But you see, once you can say I'm neurotic and not minded, you know, you're out of its clutches.

Presenter25:02

Now the Bessie Smith, you said, the record you were playing is your sixth.

Rabbi Lionel Blue25:06

Record, isn't it? Oh, yes, yes, yes. And this was the doorway into self-acceptance and to self-love I was talking to you about.

Speaker 425:13

Nobody knows.

Speaker 425:19

When you down and out

Speaker 425:24

In my pocket I won penny And my friends I have an innny But if I ever get on my feet again

Speaker 425:40

And I'll meet my long lost friend.

Speaker 425:45

It's mighty strange.

Speaker 425:48

Without a doubt Nobody knows you when you down and out I mean when you down and out

Presenter26:02

Nobody knows you when you're down and out, sung by Bessie Smith, Lionel Blue's Depression song. Seems to me you're not quite the light hearted, balanced, commonsensical rabbi we've all come to know and love.

Rabbi Lionel Blue26:13

No comics are. You see, when you tell jokes, you tell them for yourself as well.

Rabbi Lionel Blue26:19

I try to help people who suffer from morning anxiety on Monday mornings because I've always been an anxiety ridden person, and it's it's my faith really which is which helps me get out of my duvet and face life.

Presenter26:33

You're also extremely accident prone. Can it really be true that you have once fallen into a grave?

Rabbi Lionel Blue26:40

Oh yes, I told you I was no good with my hands at all. You know, I can't mend a fuse, and if there's anything I can fall into or break, then

Rabbi Lionel Blue26:49

Then that's me. I was taking a funeral when I was

Rabbi Lionel Blue26:55

When I was very early on in my career, and it was a very wintry day and it was very icy. And the Jewish ritual is that the last good thing you can do for someone is to help to bury them. That's the last mitzvah, the last great thing you can do for them. So everybody takes some earth and you throw in three shovelfuls or three handfuls. And being the minister, of course, I was very proud. They gave me the shovelful. Well, all I can say is the earth went first, and then went the spade, and then went me. And it's a very, very long way down. I tried to clamber up, but kept falling back on the top of the coffin. And then they tr put down a rope for me. You know, so I was trying to scramble at the rope like a monkey, but I couldn't do it. And they finally put down the ladder.

Rabbi Lionel Blue27:38

And I sat on the edge of the grave and they gave me brandy. And I remember at the time everybody was saying to me,

Rabbi Lionel Blue27:44

Oh, they said, you must have been thinking very profound thoughts down there, you see. I said, Yes, yes. And then I went back home, and my parents said to me, Lionel, what were you really thinking when you were down there? I said, Well, I was really thinking, thank God, it was an expensive funeral and a solid coffin.

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:01

And they said to me, That's right, my mother said, Always uh tell the truth, even if it's only to yourself and to us, Diana, but always tell the truth, don't put on the style, and I've always remembered that.

Presenter28:12

Now, you have these days a very grand title. You're Convenor of the Cl Ecclesiastical Court of the Reformed Synagogue of Great Britain. What do you do?

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:22

Well, I've got a little card behind my desk which says If you believe in me, I exist'cause it's a very strange setup. For the Reformed Jewish community, I try to deal with department which deals with um

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:35

divorces, conversions, adoptions, status questions and rows. You see, my colleagues marry people, but I deal with all the situations for my section of the Jewish community which

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:48

By the book shouldn't have happened.

Presenter28:51

Your seventh record, please.

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:53

There was a strange shop in Amsterdam.

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:57

A strange record shop where you used to go in

Rabbi Lionel Blue28:59

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:01

You used to make an offer for the record.

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:04

And if your offer was right, the owner

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:08

would accept it and you got your record. But if you would

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:12

offered too little, you were never allowed to offer for it again.

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:16

It was a very strange setup and

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:19

I looked at this record and bought it on spec.

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:23

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:24

I liked it more and more because one of the things which worries me about religion is a lot of it gets so sentimental and kitschy and third rate. And being a religious professional, as I've gone on,

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:37

I'm more and more attracted to first rate religion without schmeltz, without uh without anything false.

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:46

and this record by Victoria, a very early Spanish.

Rabbi Lionel Blue29:50

composer, seems to me to have the strength of people like Theresa Ava Avila and John of the Cross. You know, it's taut, it's tense, it's the real McCoy.

Speaker 430:12

Praise the name.

Presenter30:57

Part of the Requiem by the Spanish composer Victoria, sung by the Prague Madrigalists.

Presenter31:04

You have, Lionel Blue, what's been described as a super-ecumenical approach to life. You like mixing it with other religions, don't you? Is it that easy?

Rabbi Lionel Blue31:13

I don't tensionally go out to mix it, but I am attracted to first rate religion, real religion, wherever I find it. There's something about goodness which

Rabbi Lionel Blue31:23

which is so attractive that when you really meet it you just want to put your arms around it and hug it. And that's why time and time again in Germany and elsewhere

Rabbi Lionel Blue31:33

You know, I I certainly feel that

Rabbi Lionel Blue31:36

how much love there is in people, and I want to take them all and just put my arms around them and kiss them all over, but I can't do so, because otherwise I might end up on one of those pages of those newspapers which ministers don't dare read.

Presenter31:49

And what do you say to those Orthodox Jewish people who feel that that your reforming approach, that you are willing to eat in non-Jewish restaurants, that you will preach in churches, that you will change the old services and the customs, what do you say to those Orthodox people who are actually deeply offended by that approach?

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:09

I'm certainly not orthodox, and don't pretend to be so. I think we're trying to do two very different things, and God alone knows uh

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:18

Which one which

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:21

Which of our work is going to survive?

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:24

I can only answer the question which has been set me in my life.

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:29

I don't criticise people who are asking a different one.

Presenter32:34

Let me ask you for your eighth and your final record, please.

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:37

Up to now I've always wanted human voices.

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:41

Because it's people I would miss most on a desert island. Either people nostalgic, people warm, people bitter, people funny.

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:50

But my last record really takes me into unknown territory.

Rabbi Lionel Blue32:56

not into the realm of people, but into the realm of God.

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:01

I think Mession's Quartet for the End of Time comes out of his concentration camp experiences.

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:07

And I'm going to feel

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:10

Sometimes on that desert island if it's a concentration camp too.

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:14

with all the colour with all the animals, because I shall miss people so much.

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:19

and I shall want to learn from him how he solved his problem.

Rabbi Lionel Blue33:24

when he was in labor camp, and it might help me solve mine.

Presenter34:12

Jumble of Rainbows for the Angel Who Announces the End of Time, from Messian's Quartet for the End of Time, performed by the New York Philomusica Chamber Ensemble.

Presenter34:22

So now comes the great moment of decision. Which of your eight records would you choose to have above all others?

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:28

Cicely caught Nidge every time.

Presenter34:31

The cow. The cowing.

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:32

The cow, as I said, it's the real question of life, and I can brood over it, and also that.

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:39

I think I'm going to miss above all another island. I'm going to miss England.

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:45

And I want some

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:47

English Huma and English Cow

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:49

I think of an English pub in an English village.

Presenter34:54

Now, on the desert island you have the Bible. You get I mean do you want all of it? I mean you get the Old and the New Testament.

Rabbi Lionel Blue34:59

I'll use I'll take whatever I can get.

Presenter35:01

And you have the the complete works of Shakespeare. What more reading matter can we supply you with?

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:08

I want

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:10

The biggest textbook you can give me of pure mathematics.

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:15

I know it sounds odd, but I've got to do some exploration.

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:19

I stopped learning maths when I was a kid at about fifteen.

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:23

And I know there's a world

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:26

in mathematics which contains

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:29

Poetry

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:30

Music

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:31

Mysticism

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:33

Order pattern

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:35

The lot

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:36

And

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:38

I want to explore that world, and that I can do on my own. So please, the biggest volume of Pure Maths that that's ever been published.

Presenter35:46

And your luxury, rabbi.

Rabbi Lionel Blue35:49

The what I would really like above all, Sue, is a dog. Am I allowed a dog?

Presenter35:55

I don't think you are. I think it must be an inanimate object. I'm terribly sorry.

Rabbi Lionel Blue36:01

A few v-

Rabbi Lionel Blue36:02

No, okay, dear, if that's that's the way it is, that's life, you know. Well, in that case, please, I'd like a toilet bag filled with an unending supply of toothpaste and electric rays and all that sort of thing, because as I said, it's I find it difficult to get up in the mornings to do anything, and the thought of being able to do anything fishing, looking for an octopus, chatting to a dolphin, or any or doing my pure mathematics without brushing my teeth and without having a shave would be quite quite impossible.

Presenter36:29

You shall have it, and Rabbi Lionel Blue, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 236:42

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.