Sir James Callaghan

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty seven, and the presenter was Michael Parkinson.

Presenter0:30

Castaway has the distinction of being the only politician to have held the four highest offices in the state. He was Chancellor of the Exchequer, Home Secretary and Foreign Secretary before becoming Prime Minister in 1976. He's just published his memoirs entitled Time and Chance. Mr Callahan, there must have been times looking back in your careers, you've had to looking writing this book now, when you must have considered that Paradise Ireland would have been a wonderful thing to have had.

Presenter0:56

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan0:56

Now and again, but politics is a very exciting life and a very stimulating life. And I think if I had a desert island it would probably only last for a weekend. I don't think I'd want it to be much longer than that. Not whilst I was in politics. Out of politics, of course, it might be very nice to retire and lie in a hammock. What about the musical memories, though, you're now taking on the island? Well, one or two you'll find are just memories of the thirties, of course, of youth. One or two are related to Wales. Others are just tunes that I like. One I only came across about a year ago, and I thought I liked it so much I put it in. What about the first choice of record then? What's that? First one is again is obviously the thirties and nostalgic. It's Fat Swallow. I was a great admirer of Fat Swallow. There were all those lovely tunes he he sang and he had that great gravelly voice, like Up the Lazy River and so on. But I I chose I'm going to sit right down and write myself a letter.

Speaker 41:51

I hope you're feeling better.

Speaker 41:57

And close with love.

Speaker 42:00

The way

Speaker 42:05

I'm gonna send right down.

Speaker 42:08

And write myself a letter.

Speaker 42:14

And may believe.

Presenter2:19

How was Fat Swallow? I'm going to sit right down and write myself a letter. Was there much music in your background in your youth?

Sir James Callaghan2:25

Yes, uh there was. Um on a Saturday night the Royal Marine Band in the early twenties used to play in the Portsmouth Tarn Hall as it was then called at Tupney concerts. My mother used to take me to those and then they were followed a little later in the twenties when the Wesley Central Hall was built in the Fratton Road in Portsmouth by those great uh Threpney concerts. I think the price had gone up by then and we used to have Threpney concerts. But we had very great artists who came round, people like Peter Dawson and others. And of course there was all the chapel music. We used to sing all the hymns. I still know every moody and sankey I think that was written. And we used to sing them every Sunday in in the London Road Baptist Chapel. What kind of background was it that you had? What kind of parents did you have? Well my father was in the Navy for twenty-five, thirty years and

Sir James Callaghan3:12

became a coast guard when he retired, but unfortunately he died very shortly after. My mother was very religious. She was a what would now be called a fundamentalist. She believed in the second coming of the Lord that would happen at any time, and so I had a very

Sir James Callaghan3:29

a very religious um chapel going background. We used to say grace before meals. Before I went to school we used to read a passage from the Bible every morning.

Sir James Callaghan3:40

And on Sundays we spent pretty well the whole day in chapel as far as I can remember. I didn't I didn't uh mind it at all. I rather liked it. It was my life at the time.

Presenter3:49

Looking back you don't regard it as being a kind of stifling experience at all.

Sir James Callaghan3:52

I think perhaps in some ways it was narrowing, but on the other hand it did have a profound influence and it did mean that I knew the Bible. And what greater literature could you find than that King James version of the Bible? I'm sure it's influenced me in the use of language. And I I still enjoy reading the Bible. I will read a chapter of the Bible now and again. I can't pretend particularly for

Sir James Callaghan4:17

uh religious reasons, but because I think that it often contains very great thoughts. Indeed, I took the title of my book from a chapter and listened.

Presenter4:24

Yes, I was going to ask you about that.

Sir James Callaghan4:26

It's it's it's it's the book of Ecclesiastes and the and then the ch it's it's the the chapter

Presenter4:27

Uh

Sir James Callaghan4:31

in which uh the Prophet is showing the way in which people think and move. And he is saying that you know, don't think that it's the rich who have everything or the wise, but time and chance happeneth to every man. And that I think is true of my life, and that was why I chose the title.

Sir James Callaghan4:48

Another record, please.

Sir James Callaghan4:49

Yes, this is again a a rather a nostalgic one, in the sense that w my wife and I used to go to the proms in the thirties when they were in the old Queen's Hall, before it was blitzed, of course, and you could get in them for two shillings, which was ten p. It was quite a lot, I suppose, but even so it's pretty cheap by today's prices. And what I'd like uh they they had certain evenings for for certain music, and um Mozart was a great favourite of mine in those days, together with Beethoven. And what I would like is if you could play it is the part of the third movement of the Jupiter symphony.

Presenter6:23

That was part of the third movement of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Karl Bohm.

Presenter6:30

Miss Cunahan, w were your parents at all political?

Sir James Callaghan6:33

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan6:34

My mother was. We after my father died, we lived in a series of furnished rooms and we lived with um uh one lady who was a strong member of the Independent Labour Party and the co-op movement and she after my mother had been refused a pension by the Admiralty she got a pension for her and so I grew up in a Labour atmosphere and my first recollection of politics is of carrying the numbers when I must have been about ten or eleven from the schoolroom back to the committee rooms. How old was your father when you died? My father died in 1921. He was only 43. And how old were you?

Presenter7:08

And how old were you at the time?

Sir James Callaghan7:09

I was nine.

Presenter7:10

So your mother was left with this young family to bring up. Exactly. Times must have been very hard.

Sir James Callaghan7:12

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan7:14

They were. I don't know how she lived, frankly. The Board of Trade allowed us to live in a Coast Guard cottage for some months. And then after that, we had to make way for someone else. And we lived with people in the chapel. This was in Brixham. And I remember, and I say this not because I have any chip on my shoulder now after all this time, but we moved from a s one series of rented rooms to another. I can recall even now that in the short space of about five years, we lived in eight different sets of rented rooms. It was a very peripatetic existence. And it wasn't until my mother got this pension through the short-lived Labour Government of 1923 that we settled down.

Presenter7:53

And that was the start looking back then of your partic political uh pedigree, if you will.

Sir James Callaghan7:56

Oh yeah. I felt and and in the chapel, in the Baptist chapel, where there were a lot of Labour supporters and I never felt myself naturally to be Labour. I grew up in that way. There was no sudden spiritual conversion.

Presenter8:02

So

Presenter8:07

Was there any possibility, coming from this background, that uh that you might get to university, or was that out of the question?

Sir James Callaghan8:13

But that was out of the question at the time. I don't know how clever I was probably every

Sir James Callaghan8:17

A lot of people say I'm not clever at all and I'm quite prepared to accept that, except that I became Prime Minister and they didn't, all these clever people. But no, I I I got um what was called senior Oxford in those days. The Ministry of Pensions paid my fees at the local secondary school, two guineas a term, um and um they allowed me to stay until I got the senior Oxford and then I passed an examination into the civil service.

Presenter8:41

And then started work at the age of seventeen.

Sir James Callaghan8:43

Yeah

Presenter8:44

Could we have another choice with Red Coffee, please?

Sir James Callaghan8:46

The next record I'd like is a piano record. I always wanted to play the piano when I was young, and never did, although my sister did. And I've chosen one of Chopin's nocturnes, the one in B-flap minor, opus number nine, number one. It's not the most popular of them, but it's one I like. It's very calm and clear.

Presenter10:06

That was Chopin's nocturnal in B Fat Minor, opus nine number one, played by Vladimir Ashkenazi.

Presenter10:12

Could you pinpoint the moment in time when you knew that you had to go into politics as a career?

Sir James Callaghan10:18

I don't think I could exactly, but I could give you a rough idea in the sense that when I

Presenter10:21

Death.

Sir James Callaghan10:24

When joined the Inland Revenue I was drummed into the position of being Office Secretary for the Inland Revenue Staff Federation, it had a different name in those days, and I gradually got interested in trade unionism.

Sir James Callaghan10:35

and from that in politics. And I happened to take an arbitration case on behalf of some of the members of the Inland Revenue in front of the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal. Harold Lasky, who you may remember, was one of the was one of the arbitrators, and afterwards he wrote to me and asked me to go and see him, and then he invited me to

Speaker 110:47

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan10:53

Read for an external degree, he said he would give me all the help he could in L S E.

Sir James Callaghan10:57

Well, it was the time of the Spanish Civil War and I said, no, uh I was very gratified. This is a great man should take notice of me, but I said the revolution's too close. There's going to be a war between fascism and communism and we don't have time to take degrees. But he's very good. He said, well, look, I'm going to give you a ticket to read in the LSE Library. And he did. And I read a great deal there and thoroughly enjoyed myself.

Presenter11:17

And who would be then in the reading? Who would be the political influences?

Sir James Callaghan11:20

So, people like H. G. Wells, Bernard Shaw, Lasky himself, of course, Cole, all those people from that generation I soaked up and absorbed. Uh it wasn't uh in any way a systematic education at all, but I read and I widely and enjoyed them all. And and then I suddenly found that that there was some

Sir James Callaghan11:42

what I might call intellectual background and backing for the instinctive beliefs that I had as a a Labour supporter since the age of eleven.

Presenter11:51

So when the war came along then, and that that was no surprise to you at all, is it true that in fact you could have avoided b uh joining up because of of your position within the in our revenue association?

Sir James Callaghan12:01

Well, that's sounds a very yes, I I don't care for the way you put that, if I may say so, but um I I I wanted to join up and but I was in a so-called reserved occupation. I went and volunteered and they um

Presenter12:08

Yeah.

Presenter12:10

That's national.

Sir James Callaghan12:13

And they said, Oh, you'd better stay where you are for the time being.

Presenter12:16

What why did you volunteer?

Sir James Callaghan12:18

I think I felt it was a war against Nazism.

Sir James Callaghan12:22

It was a war that ought to be fought. It was a war that I felt deeply ashamed about Munich. Shame and relief at the same time. Relief because Audrey and I had only been married a month and you can imagine therefore what the domestic feeling was. At the same time, I felt uh we had studied the situation. Audrey and I, when we'd been married six weeks, took in uh into our home a refugee, a Jewish refugee from Germany, who had escaped from Hitler. We knew what it was about and I had no doubt that Nazism had to be beaten.

Sir James Callaghan12:54

Another choice of record, please, Mr. Carlan. Well, could we have some fun, Let's start. Absolutely, I'm all for it. I'd like Bob Newhart, that record introducing tobacco to civilization. The first time I heard it, I laughed so much the tears simply ran down my cheeks.

Speaker 413:10

You can chew it.

Speaker 413:13

Or put it in a pipe.

Speaker 413:16

Or you or you can shred it up.

Speaker 413:19

And put it on a piece of paper.

Speaker 413:22

And roll it up.

Speaker 413:24

Don't don't tell me, well, don't don't tell me.

Speaker 413:40

You you stick it in your ear, right, well?

Speaker 413:50

All between your lips. Then what do you do to a well?

Speaker 113:57

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Speaker 414:01

Is that fire toe, Walla?

Presenter14:07

Mr. Callahan, during the the the war you you saw active service?

Sir James Callaghan14:11

Yes, I think the people on the whole, people in in London and in Coventry were probably in more danger for m most of the time than I was, and that was true, I think, of a number of us in the services, although of course those men who took the convoys, the PQ-17 and other convoys across the Atlantic and up to Murmance, they really did suffer badly. I ended the war out in the East Indies Fleet. On V E Day we were bombarding the Japanese positions in the Andaman Islands off the coast of Burma and chasing two Japanese destroyers across the Indian Ocean. But fortunately they were much faster than we were, so they got away.

Presenter14:48

But there was never any doubt was that when you were demobbed that that the politics were beckoning now, that you're you that this would be your life.

Sir James Callaghan14:53

No, not at all. I was selected as the candidate for Cardiff South in 1942, I think it was. And um from then on I absolutely was clear that the those men and women who had served in the forces needed representation in Parliament, uh quite apart uh from the general beliefs that I held and I had no doubt at all.

Presenter15:15

I see forty-five of the

Sir James Callaghan15:17

They were wonderful. We were we were trading on air. We we got back to Parliament with a huge majority. We felt we were unconquerable. We built the split fires. We were now going to build the houses. People were going to have jobs. We were going to bring in the beverage report.

Presenter15:18

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan15:34

Uh it it it it was uh a a a heady atmosphere. There was no other word to describe it. And, my word, we did transform Britain. I mean l let me put it this way.

Sir James Callaghan15:44

The Britain after of post-1945 was so different from the post-1918 Britain. That was our experience, or that was the experience of our parents. I was very young at the time. But we were determined that we were not going to have another 1918, and by golly, the Labour Government, after 1945, ensured there wasn't another post-1918. There were no wounded ex-servicemen wandering up the streets of Piccadilly or marching to London displaying their wounds and their war medals. People did have a job. We did introduce from the cradle to the grave, they said. Well, that was to some extent true. I feel very proud of what happened, what was done in those days. Even though naturally, as time moves on, of course, you get a different approach and a different atmosphere, and people of this generation see it differently.

Presenter16:27

But the foundations of of modern of the modern society were were built in those days in in forty-five.

Sir James Callaghan16:31

Of the post-war society, there's no doubt it lasts.

Presenter16:32

Sorry so there's no doubt

Sir James Callaghan16:34

For forty years at least.

Presenter16:35

And what about the what about the personalities there? What about the men who are leading this sort of uh this march toward the New Jerusalem?

Sir James Callaghan16:36

Uh

Sir James Callaghan16:42

Yes. Well, the the man who I think had the biggest personality of all, certainly to me, he was sort of four square embedded in the rock, as it were, was Bevin, Ernie Bevin. Nye Bevin was a wonderful companion. Mercurial, he had the ideas that made you inspired and made you think new thoughts. Gripps had a straight morality that you admired. Mr. Attlee's personality didn't come across as much then. He was more the conductor of the team and you weren't so aware of him as you were of the solo players. Dalton was a very big figure. Morrison was. They were all of course we were young and therefore in those days when you were young you thought all the older most of the older people were rather big grand chaps. Now I don't think young people feel that about us. I mean about me, not about you.

Presenter17:31

As I'm not yours. The

Sir James Callaghan17:32

Record

Sir James Callaghan17:33

This one is a compliment both to you and to Wales. It's the Huddersfield Choral Society, which I'm sure you would want to hear, but it is conducted by Owen Arwell Hughes, who is of course one of our outstanding Welsh conductors. And it's the hymn tune, GZU, Lover of My Soul, sung to the tune Aberystwith, written again by a great Welshman, Parry.

Presenter18:55

Jesus You Lover of My Soul sung to the tune of Riswith by the Hoesfield Call Society, conducted by Owen Owell Hughes.

Presenter19:01

Mr. Cameron, you've

Presenter19:03

held, as I said in my introduction to this programme, the four great officers of state. You have been Chancellor, you've been Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister. Leading aside Prime Minister, which we'll talk about in a moment, what about the other three officers? Which do you enjoy most?

Sir James Callaghan19:17

I think I enjoyed Foreign Secretary most of all. I A, it was my second term, as it were. Chancellor and Home Secretary I did in my first term, and I was therefore more experienced and felt I could handle the situation better. I wasn't, although I was learning, one always learns throughout life. Nevertheless, I had a certain amount of background. And it also brought me into contact with a number of people overseas, in the Commonwealth, in the Third World, and of course in the United States, continent, and so on. And I very much enjoyed that.

Presenter19:47

Looking at the p people you met, let's talk of about uh American Presidents, for instance. I mean, you met with LBJ, didn't you? You met?

Sir James Callaghan19:54

Yes, I I met Eisenhower, I suppose, is the first voice I met, but that was when he was Commander-in-Chief of NATO. LBJ was a tremendous personality.

Presenter19:57

Swimmed.

Sir James Callaghan20:04

A huge man, a great bear of a man, who dominated the room when he came into it. Carter was a simple man, a straightforward man, a man who is much underrated in my view. He had high principles, he learned extremely quickly. But of course, like all American Presidents, he didn't, unless they've come straight from the Senate or the Congress, he didn't have the experience. He had to learn very quickly because he didn't have the depth there. Anybody who becomes Prime Minister here has had 15, 20, 30 years behind him.

Presenter20:37

Yes.

Sir James Callaghan20:38

Whereas no, very few American presidents have that. Ford, I thought, was a man of very great common sense who did a great deal to calm America down after the traumas of Nixon. Nixon, mind you, was extremely able. To hear Nixon talking about foreign affairs was an education in itself. I don't know President Reagan. I've only ever met him once, so I know he tells a good story. I heard him in anecdotal mood, and I thought he was very good.

Presenter21:07

What about the office of Prime Minister then? Let's come to that. Did you enjoy that? Was it as hard work or much harder work than the other?

Sir James Callaghan21:12

Nervously.

Presenter21:13

The conversion

Sir James Callaghan21:13

No, no, I think this is uh this is a a a a a myth. Well, it depends on the Prime Minister, of course. I I'm sure some Prime Ministers make it very hard work. Uh I

Presenter21:17

Oh.

Sir James Callaghan21:23

Sometimes I was forced into making it hard work, but on the whole I preferred to rather sit back and let the others do the work whilst I watched and sort of intervened when I wished to do. I think a Prime Minister can do as much or as little as he wants. Harold Wilson was very good in the sense that he seemed to have eyes in the back of his head and he was able to keep an eye on what was happening all the way round and he loved that. He wanted to know everything that was happening. I didn't mind so much if I didn't know everything was happening, provided things were going along pretty well. Sometimes they did and frequently they didn't, as you know. But I wasn't a workaholic and I hope never would be.

Presenter21:59

Another choice of record please.

Sir James Callaghan22:00

Well, this is a new one. I only heard it a year or two ago. It's the Shepherd Song from Canterloup's Songs of the Auvergne.

Speaker 422:50

God let him

Presenter23:04

There was the Shepherd song from Canterlou's Songs of the Auvergne, sung there by Josephine Jones, and the Trioke Male Choir, conducted by John Cunnan Jones.

Presenter23:12

Can I ask you, looking back over the long, long time you've you've had in uh in Parliament, can I ask you what what were they, when you look back, what have been the best moments?

Presenter23:22

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan23:22

I suppose the very best moment of all, most exciting moment, is when I was first elected and carried shoulder high from Cardiff City Hall. That was the most wonderful moment, of course. Another great moment, naturally, is becoming Prime Minister. And that I defy anybody to become Prime Minister and not to feel immensely moved and proud and happy at such a time.

Presenter23:47

What about the worst moments? What have been the most uh the the bottom line in the in in these years in Parliament?

Sir James Callaghan23:53

I think the two there would be um the devaluation of sterling in nineteen hundred and sixty seven, because I've fought to maintain the value of sterling, not as a symbol.

Sir James Callaghan24:06

But because I felt if we could maintain the value of sterling as a in the fixed exchange rate system that it would represent a victory for Britain.

Sir James Callaghan24:14

It wasn't a defeat for me, although of course everybody represented it as such, it was a defeat for Britain. It showed that we were unable to maintain the value of our currency. And that meant that our productivity

Presenter24:18

Percent

Sir James Callaghan24:28

Was not as good as that of other countries, and that was to me a very bad moment. I'd set out with the deliberate intention of maintaining the value of sterling as a means of showing that Britain could become productive, could become efficient, and alas, that didn't result. I suppose the other bad moment, clearly, although I'd expected it and it didn't strike me as hard as the devaluation of sterling, was when we lost the vote of confidence. And the winter of discontent. The winter of discontent. This was a.

Presenter24:52

And the winter of discontent.

Sir James Callaghan24:56

A very bad period for me because I felt that, um

Sir James Callaghan25:00

workers were hurting other workers, that they were taking it out of other workers when their objection was to the government, and indeed I thought they were throwing away their own best interests, and I believe they were.

Presenter25:12

Yes, I was going to ask you what kind of influence has that had, that winter of discontent, had, generally speaking, on politics and unions from that point on.

Sir James Callaghan25:21

Well, it's weakened the position of the unions very much indeed. Uh

Sir James Callaghan25:26

Yeah.

Presenter25:26

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan25:26

Well, I think that in the late seventies, and certainly in the winter of discontent, a lot of people and not the official leadership but others, um overplayed their hand. They really thought they could run this country and the trade unions and nobody else are going to run this country except the government of the day. Now this was not the official leadership at all. It was taken out of their hands.

Sir James Callaghan25:47

And so I think that it has had a lasting effect both on the trade unions and on the legislation that's followed.

Sir James Callaghan25:54

Another choice of record, please. Yes, an old favourite, or one of several old favourites, and that is part of the first movement of Buck's Brandenburg Concerto No. Four.

Speaker 426:45

Uh

Presenter27:07

That was part of the first movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. Four, played by the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Benjamin Britton.

Presenter27:15

It might seem a silly question, but I wonder, have you found politics completely satisfying?

Presenter27:20

Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan27:20

Yes, it was my I suppose it took up nearly all my time. Politics is a very jealous mistress, and what are we talking about? We're talking about the way in which you conduct the affairs of the nation, whether you are in opposition or whether you are in government. And what more exciting, interesting, absorbing?

Sir James Callaghan27:37

Occupation can you have than that, especially if you have certain convictions that you want to put into into practice. So um I have found it totally satisfying, although in later years as you may know, well, I've I've always had other occupations and uh in the last twenty years I've done a little bit of farming and rather enjoyed that and learned about stock and crops and how to grow them, or mostly how not to grow them, I'm about to say.

Presenter28:00

But I mean, you're still, I mean, you're a very vigorous man. I mean, you're not in any sense the word decrepit. Thank you, man.

Presenter28:09

Either physically or mentally. And it must be a temptation, given all the experience you've got, to hang on.

Sir James Callaghan28:15

Well, my my party officers very kindly came to me and said, would I do so? And I think they really meant it, and it wasn't just a compliment. But I feel that the generations have changed, and this needs new leadership, and you don't want old men hanging around there. And I felt it was time to go, and I have got a number of other things to do. I'm now President of University College at Swansea, which I enjoy. I'm a trustee of the Rajaji Institute of India. I'm a chairman of the Hubert Humphrey Institute in America, and all this sort of thing, you see. And so I've got many other things that I can do and travel around. And allow me to add, spend some more time with my wife and my family, which I enjoy. Boarding editing. That must have been.

Presenter28:54

Which I

Presenter28:56

Back.

Sir James Callaghan28:57

Uh he was probably Always. I feel very sorry indeed for young politicians with families because it really does tear them apart and it's I think a most trying occupation in that sense.

Presenter29:00

Die for

Sir James Callaghan29:08

Let me ask you then what will you miss about politics?

Sir James Callaghan29:12

Well, I shall miss certainly my constituency. After all, I've formed so many friends in forty years, and they were young when I got there. They're now grandparents. I've seen their children grow up, and now I see their grandchildren grow up. And I believe the relationship, and this is one of the arguments against proportional representation, incidentally, the relationship that's built up between a Member of Parliament and his constituency is a very personal one. I regard it very much as my family, and I'm very happy to help them as much as I can, and they've helped me over forty years, I'm bound to say. I suppose that is what I shall miss most. I shan't miss the three-line whips, and I shan't miss the late nights in in the House, I'm bound to tell you.

Sir James Callaghan29:49

A final choice of record, please. Oh, well, now I'd like to go back to the Royal Marines, I think, or at any rate, to some mass band. And the Royal Marines, you know, I often think of them playing The Day Thou Gavest, Lord, is Ended, and sunset on some distant parade ground. And in my imagination, I conjure up pictures of Malta or Gibraltar or Singapore, where they're playing this tune amid the tropical or semi-tropical heat. And it's a wonderful sort of nostalgic recollection for me.

Presenter31:17

So mister Callahan, you're now on your on your desert island. You have to imagine that your eight records are there, then one day a a wave comes along and it it washes seven away and you're left with one, which is the one you'd like to keep.

Sir James Callaghan31:28

Very difficult, but I think I'll go for Mozart's Jupiter Symphony. What

Presenter31:33

Bye. Yeah.

Sir James Callaghan31:34

I think it's got more to it. It would stir me. It would when I was lethargic. There would be more to bite on than some of the other records.

Presenter31:41

And what about the book? You're going to assume you've got the Bible there, can you assume you've got the works of Shakespeare?

Sir James Callaghan31:46

I'm going to take a long book that I've never yet managed to finish reading, Tolstoy's War and Peace. I might just manage it on that island.

Presenter31:52

And what about the luxury object inanimate?

Sir James Callaghan31:54

Ah, well now here we're going to have many hours of of darkness when I should be lying looking at the stars. So what I would like to take, if I may, is uh if you give me two things. I I I want a a a big telescope so that I can study the stars, especially if it's if the island's in the southern hemisphere, because I don't know the stars in the southern hemisphere, I know they're not as bright or as good. And and a book, if I might, about uh about the stars. Could I do have that? Well I would have to go to arbitration about everything, Mr Killer.

Presenter32:21

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Sir James Callaghan32:22

Well if well please could I have some some textbook to show me what the stars are?

Presenter32:27

James Carhan, thank you very much indeed.

Speaker 132:36

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.