Robert Maxwell

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty seven, and the presenter was Michael Parkinson.

Presenter0:29

If our castaway needed the money, which he doesn't, he could sell his life story to Hollywood for a blockbusting miniseries. It supports the theory that often truth is more exotic than fiction. He was born in Czechoslovakia, the son of a peasant farmer, was commissioned in the British Army and decorated for bravery. He became a member of parliament, possibly the only chairman of the House of Commons Catering Subcommittee to speak nine languages. Today, he's recognised as one of our most formidable businessmen. It's been said of him, in business terms, he's a big league player, with the resources and the bravado to walk where angels fear to tread. Here's Robert Maxwell.

Presenter1:08

Have you ever been tempted to write this remarkable life story of yours?

Robert Maxwell1:12

Yeah.

Presenter1:12

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell1:13

I have been tempted and induced, and I'm still hoping to get it done. I'm a very happy person.

Robert Maxwell1:21

I have a large family, my wife and I have been.

Robert Maxwell1:24

married, happily married, for forty two years.

Robert Maxwell1:28

We have seven children. We're very proud of them.

Robert Maxwell1:32

Yes, it would be a happy book, and I hope, if I get it written, that it'll be of both value and amusement to all lots of people who, I hope, will read it.

Robert Maxwell1:44

Yeah.

Presenter1:44

When you look back on your life though, you must actually because it is an extraordinary story, you must at times, even you disbelieve that it actually happened.

Robert Maxwell1:52

That is certainly true, but I'm so busy that I do not have the time in recent years to look back at anything. All I've got time for is to deal with the issues of the day and plan forward a little to get things done.

Presenter2:09

Well now we're giving you time off on the desert island. So you're going to have to look back for a while. What about the music, you see? Because all you allowed on this desert island are are your records. So now let me first ask you, has music played a a large part in your life?

Robert Maxwell2:21

Music has played a great part in my life. We have music at home and I love listening to records and whenever I can to going to a concert.

Presenter2:31

What's dictated your choice? Is it just a good tune or is it uh are all these records do they contain memories for you, moments?

Robert Maxwell2:39

They contain uh memories. They have moved me when I first heard them, and I'm happy to take them along as loving companions on to the desert island with me, and I can listen to them. They bring back memories, and they're very pleasant to listen to. And furthermore, I consider people who write music to be the greatest geniuses of all, not those who make money or who play football. I think people who can think out in their own mind

Robert Maxwell3:14

Tune, write it down, orchestrate it, and get it played. That's a marvelous human creativity. And so that's a further reason why I'm happy to have music and to listen to it. Right, let's have a first choice of record. What shall that be?

Robert Maxwell3:31

The first movement of Mozart's Symphony No. Forty in G Mang, played by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Karl Bern.

Presenter4:37

That was part of the first movement of Mozart's Symphony No. 40 in G minor, played by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Carl Bohm.

Presenter4:47

Bob, you were born in in Czechoslovakia. Could you tell me exactly the kind of background you came from?

Robert Maxwell4:52

Uh

Presenter4:53

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell4:53

I came from a very poor family indeed. My father was an unemployed farm labourer.

Robert Maxwell5:01

We didn't have enough to eat. I've only had three years primary education.

Presenter5:06

What's

Robert Maxwell5:07

The

Presenter5:07

What effect did it have that that have on you in later life when you look back at that background?

Robert Maxwell5:12

All I remember is being hungry most of the time. It has had no effect on me in any way. My mother did her best for us with the little

Presenter5:22

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell5:22

Uh

Presenter5:23

That she had. You mentioned that you only had three years uh education, of an of any sort of formal education in my country. And yet you have this extraordinary gift for languages. You speak nine languages now. When did you discover that you had this gift? Was it at at an early age?

Robert Maxwell5:33

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell5:37

In Czechoslovakia, and as people who live in Central Europe, mostly you need to speak one or two languages. I discovered that I had a gift quite early on in life. I could learn a language very quickly. For instance, I chose to come to Britain in nineteen hundred and forty after the Battle of France, and when I landed here in September nineteen forty, I came not as a refugee, but with a rifle in my hand. I could have gone to America, but I chose to come to Britain because I had heard that Mr Churchill was going to lead the British people into a continuing battle against Nazi Germany. When I landed I didn't speak a word of English, but yet within about six to eight weeks I spoke it as well as I do now.

Presenter6:24

How do you learn?

Robert Maxwell6:25

In that time? I met a girl who who was running a tobacco shop. I don't believe it. Absolutely true. And she taught you English. She taught me English or Welsh.

Presenter6:30

Yeah.

Presenter6:36

I wonder if she's still alive and listening.

Robert Maxwell6:39

I hope so.

Presenter6:40

We should dedicate the next record to her. What might it be, uh?

Robert Maxwell6:43

Certainly. As a youngster we were all very crazy about jazz, or at least I was, and then one day I heard Gershwin's Porgy and Bess, and I found that to be a marriage of the classics and jazz, which made an indelible impression on me.

Robert Maxwell7:03

But I cannot hear enough of it.

Speaker 47:18

Throw that beautiful number, Fallon Seven!

Speaker 47:24

And what is

Robert Maxwell7:34

Let's see.

Speaker 47:36

If your boys would do

Speaker 47:45

The favourite stool.

Presenter7:54

That was Summertime from Gershwin's Porgy and Best, sung by Leona Mitchell. Bob, you mentioned there, you just kind of threw it away, that when you arrived in Britain you had a rifle in your hand.

Presenter8:05

Now, how old were you?

Robert Maxwell8:06

Uh

Presenter8:07

I was

Robert Maxwell8:08

seventeen.

Presenter8:08

seventeen. Why do you have the rifle in your hand?

Robert Maxwell8:11

I was a member of the Czech army serving in France, and I escaped into unoccupied France.

Robert Maxwell8:21

and uh eventually made my way via Gibraltar.

Robert Maxwell8:25

to Liverpool as a soldier.

Robert Maxwell8:28

to rejoin the remnants of the Czech army.

Robert Maxwell8:31

who had been from a force of about twenty four thousand, only four thousand managed to get to Britain, and I was one of those.

Presenter8:40

Before that, going back even before that, what was the first time that you started fighting the Germans?

Robert Maxwell8:45

Before that I joined the underground and as a youngster who spoke Hungarian I led Czech volunteers out of what was Czechoslovakia across Hungary into Yugoslavia, guided them by train up to the Yugoslav border on the way to joining the voluntary Czech army in France.

Presenter9:10

What was life like in uh in those days under the Germans?

Robert Maxwell9:14

Dangerous but very exciting for me I until I got caught. What happened then? I was tortured and beaten up.

Robert Maxwell9:22

Sentenced to death.

Robert Maxwell9:23

as a spy.

Robert Maxwell9:26

And were you still here, so you must have got away? The French um ambassador intervened in uh with the Hawty, who was then the dictator of Hungary, and pointed out that I was tried under the articles of war, which should not apply to me, because I was still a junior. I was up below eighteen years of age.

Robert Maxwell9:47

So I was sent to be retried.

Robert Maxwell9:51

by another tribunal.

Robert Maxwell9:53

And since I was a youngster, instead of having two guards to look after me, I was only sent to the court with one guard, and he had lost an arm in the First World War. So I escaped rather relatively easy and made my way into Yugoslavia, then Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey, Syria, Palestine to France.

Robert Maxwell10:17

and into the Czech Army.

Presenter10:19

Another choice of record, please.

Robert Maxwell10:21

This one I would like to choose is Winston Churchill's speech.

Robert Maxwell10:27

about we will fight on the beaches, which not only inspired millions of people.

Robert Maxwell10:33

In Britain.

Robert Maxwell10:35

But I, for one, was one of those who, because of that speech, which we heard, although I didn't understand a word what he was saying, chose to come to Britain to f help Britain fight Germany rather than accept an offer of a scholarship to go to America.

Speaker 310:55

For rights reasons, we're unable to bring you this choice.

Presenter10:59

Looking back on this to this that part of your life, do you ever go back to that village where where you were born?

Robert Maxwell11:05

I have only been back once, and thereby lies a story, nineteen hundred and fifty seven or thereabouts.

Robert Maxwell11:12

The Russians had refused to sign the copyright convention. That meant that they stole the intellectual property of Western authors, and the copied had never paid any royalties.

Robert Maxwell11:26

and I was uh meeting the then Minister of Culture, Madame Furtseva.

Robert Maxwell11:32

to try and persuade her to get the Russians to join the Copyright Convention.

Robert Maxwell11:39

And it c happened at a reception she introduced me to Nikitya Khrushchev in Moscow.

Robert Maxwell11:47

And I asked him about whether the Soviet Union would join the copyright convention, and he said they're studying it.

Robert Maxwell11:55

He then said to me as a s uh out of politeness if there is anything else I want to ask him. So I said yes, I'd like to visit my native village, which was in Czechoslovakia, but is now part of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Ukraine. So he said, What was the name of that village? and I told him it was Solo Solotrina.

Robert Maxwell12:17

he brutally turned around and said Net and I could not understand why that was so. And I did not find out till twenty five years later

Robert Maxwell12:30

when Mr Demichev, who was the then Minister of Culture, now Vice President of the Soviet Union, said Wouldn't you like to visit your native village? So I said yes. Cut a long story short, I w went there with my wife.

Robert Maxwell12:48

Regrettably we couldn't find anybody whom I knew. But I asked the chairman of the village Soviet, this village is close to the Romanian borders and the Russians have got some rockets there and he said to me I'm, as far as he knows, the only foreigner who'd been allowed to get here since nineteen forty-five. And so I asked him whether he could tell me why Mr Khrushchev was so violently against my coming here. Oh, he says that's very easy. In 1949, when he was secretary of the Communist Party in the Ukraine, he visited us and some partisans nearly k shot at him and nearly killed him. So if you mention that Solotvina to him, he's not surprised that he says that get lost. He had bad memories of it.

Robert Maxwell13:41

Let's have another choice of record, Bob, please. Mozart's opera Don Giovanni, which I'm very fond of.

Speaker 414:30

Masher was not your victory. Uh

Presenter14:35

There was the Aria Batti Batti from Mozart's Don Giovanni, sung there by Irmgard Siefred.

Presenter14:43

Bobby, you let's just finish round off this episode of your life, uh uh where you're fighting the the Germans. You were in fact commissioned in the field in in France, weren't you? And and and awarded the military cross. Yeah.

Robert Maxwell14:54

Fuck.

Presenter14:54

Bravery

Robert Maxwell14:54

The amusing part about my being commissioned in the field that was in Normandy the War Office would not give me my officer's number, because they said, What is this man doing? He's not a British subject in a British fighting regiment.

Presenter14:55

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell15:13

And uh M Monty had to intervene to get it for me, and in the end I went to the front on the German-Dutch border.

Robert Maxwell15:23

As an officer without a number.

Robert Maxwell15:26

You're your enemy

Presenter15:26

Anyway,

Robert Maxwell15:28

As an enemy area, yeah.

Presenter15:29

Yeah.

Presenter15:30

I suppose there was a sense in which the the war, apart from Molos, was a personal crusade for you, wasn't it?

Robert Maxwell15:36

It was because uh my family were wiped out with millions of others.

Robert Maxwell15:43

in Auschwitz, and uh I had a determination to kill Germans, which uh equalled the horrors that they were inflicting on a lot of innocent people.

Presenter15:57

Well how how do you do you feel about it now? I mean, it must be difficult to lose that kind of hatred.

Presenter16:03

The Sarah

Robert Maxwell16:04

Uh

Presenter16:04

Follow. Of

Robert Maxwell16:05

Those losses are ever before me.

Robert Maxwell16:08

And your own hatred?

Robert Maxwell16:12

I don't hate as I did during the war, but I cannot forget or forgive.

Presenter16:20

Let's move on now now Rob to the next point in your life, in this extraordinary career, where you you left the forces and where

Presenter16:28

In fact, you s embarked for the first time in your business career. Had there been at any point at all leading up to this moment in your life, when you decided to go into business, that you did you thought that business was going to be your your future career?

Robert Maxwell16:40

Now after the war I find myself, like millions of others, not knowing what I'm going to do.

Robert Maxwell16:48

and the general that commanded my division, who became a senior officer in the War Office, invited me to take up a permanent commission in the Armed Forces. When they discovered that I still wasn't a British subject, he arranged for me to be nationalised very quickly.

Robert Maxwell17:08

which happened with the assistance of a namesake of mine.

Robert Maxwell17:12

Sir Alexander Maxwell, who was at that time permanent secretary at the Home Office.

Robert Maxwell17:17

Eventually I discovered really that being a a regular soldier was not really my scene, and I was asked to go to Berlin to become head of the press office, German section, because I spoke, as you referred to earlier, quite a few languages.

Robert Maxwell17:35

And I remember being interviewed by a civil service commission for this job and they offered it to me, but at a salary of seven hundred and fifty pounds a year. And I said to the chairman of the commission, I won't take it except at the higher scale, which was eleven hundred and fifty pounds a year. And he got very cross with me and said at my age when he joined the civil service he was happy to do it for two hundred and twelve pounds a year. So I said, Sir, I didn't ask for the job. Somebody wants me to come, then they'll have to pay what I consider to be a fair rate. You're making deals even then, were you? To cut a long story short, I got called back and they paid me the full rate.

Presenter18:22

Let's have another choice of record, please, Bob.

Robert Maxwell18:25

On the Streets Where You Live, sung by Andy Williams. And why this? It's cheerful.

Robert Maxwell18:32

I hope you will agree.

Speaker 418:37

Uh

Speaker 418:38

Super

Speaker 418:43

Does enchantment pour out of every door?

Speaker 418:53

No, it's just on the street where

Presenter19:01

I was on the street where you live from My Fair Ladies song by Andy Williams.

Presenter19:06

Bob, let's now go to the business start of your life. How do you get the money together to actually start your first business?

Presenter19:14

I

Robert Maxwell19:15

I had uh my gratuity, the same as billions of others. Those of my family that survived who were in America gave me a few bomb. But the my real resources were provided by lent to me by Hambrough's bank, a lovely man called Sir Charles Hambrough, now dead, who played a major part in our SOE secret intelligence operations in Europe.

Presenter19:41

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell19:45

I was introduced to him by

Robert Maxwell19:48

Publisher called Butterworths.

Robert Maxwell19:51

And I said, I want to set up a business. And he.

Robert Maxwell19:55

Called in his general manager. He said, Clarky, this is Captain Maxwell.

Robert Maxwell20:00

Give him a cheque book and he can draw up to twenty-five thousand pounds.

Robert Maxwell20:04

A lot of money in those days, wasn't it?

Presenter20:05

Lenny

Robert Maxwell20:08

When I got to know him better I asked him why he did it. Well, he said, I just had a feeling that you would do well.

Robert Maxwell20:15

And I as a banker should back you.

Robert Maxwell20:18

A few years later, he said

Robert Maxwell20:20

Bob, you're doing very well. Wouldn't you like me to put you forward?

Robert Maxwell20:25

on the list of Tory candidates.

Robert Maxwell20:28

I said, No, and they said, Why on earth not?

Robert Maxwell20:32

and I told him about my father being unemployed because Conservative politicians kept him out.

Robert Maxwell20:39

He was disappointed, but I stuck to my guns.

Presenter20:43

Did you enjoy your time in the house? You'd labour and pee for Bucks, weren't you?

Robert Maxwell20:46

Yes, I did. When I got into the House of Commons for the first time, I thought I was the cleverest thing on two legs there, and it was rather sobering to discover in a few weeks that anything I knew, there were at least ten people that knew a thousand times more.

Robert Maxwell21:04

Did you have

Presenter21:06

Have there any real political ambition in the sense that you would have liked the power that high office would have brought?

Robert Maxwell21:11

I had the ambition to really get things done, and I was able in the House to get things done. I did the Clean Air Act, which I'm very proud of, which by the way, has now been copied in a hundred other countries. That was a private member's bill which I got through with all party.

Robert Maxwell21:30

Gerald Nabarro helped me. Duncan Sands played a major part in getting this Act in in London, and I did the rest of the country. I was able to persuade the Government to see, for instance, that when land is acquired for public purposes in this country, like it was for the new town of Milton Canes, which was in my constituency, the compensation used to go to the landowners, not to the tenants who were farming. I got that changed. Land, if it's now acquired from tenant farmers, the compensation goes to them. So I was able to be busy and get the few things done. Like, for instance, I did a report to the Parliamentary Party on how the Government could use its power as a buyer in order to reward the good and punish the bad industrialists or businessmen. Some of the recommendations I've made were adopted in the Heath Government. Some of the proposals then made still await implementation. No choice of record, please, Bob. This time, the great Beatles. She loves you. I don't think I need to add anything to that.

Speaker 422:57

You think you blast your nerve?

Speaker 423:00

Well I saw her yesterday, eh? It's you she's thinking of

Speaker 423:06

And she told me what to say She said she loves you

Presenter23:13

And that was the Beatles and She Loves You.

Presenter23:17

Bob, one of the things that that always fascinates people when they uh meet you or or read about you is this business of being an exceedingly rich man who's made it from from nowhere. You weren't given it, you made it yourself.

Presenter23:30

People think there's a trick to making money. Is there a trick to making money?

Robert Maxwell23:34

Now

Robert Maxwell23:35

There is no trick other than hard work.

Robert Maxwell23:39

Creativity.

Robert Maxwell23:41

Care.

Robert Maxwell23:43

and recognizing that duty is more important than love.

Robert Maxwell23:48

Would you care to to expand on that? What do you mean by that?

Presenter23:50

Uh

Robert Maxwell23:51

Whatever you do, you must give it total concentration and commitment. And if you are out selling, for instance, and it's five o'clock and you have a date with your girl, but if you stayed on and walked a further mile, you may talk to a customer

Robert Maxwell24:09

fulfil their requirements, then you better do that rather than going on your date.

Presenter24:14

Really?

Presenter24:15

Uh

Robert Maxwell24:15

Is it But you

Presenter24:16

You've done all your

Robert Maxwell24:16

Uh

Presenter24:16

The latter

Robert Maxwell24:17

Yeah.

Presenter24:17

Yeah.

Robert Maxwell24:17

That's what I've done all my life. And that's also what I'm trying to teach my children or anybody who asks me for advice.

Presenter24:25

This for personal problem.

Robert Maxwell24:27

Come

Presenter24:27

Uh

Robert Maxwell24:27

Uh

Presenter24:27

The pack

Robert Maxwell24:27

Yes, it it it separates the achiever from the talker. It's the doer that I mean, a lot of people will talk to you about what they want to do, but never really do it.

Robert Maxwell24:39

If you want to do it, you must get on with it, and be single minded.

Robert Maxwell24:45

It's not as a way of making money. I do this and have done whatever I need to do, whether it's for myself, or for the Government, or for any charity that I may be, or political party that I may be doing.

Robert Maxwell24:59

Duty First.

Presenter25:00

Doesn't that involve though of necessity uh sacrifices to family and that sort of thing?

Robert Maxwell25:05

Yeah.

Presenter25:05

Uh

Robert Maxwell25:06

It does involve, above all, sacrifice to yourself. I regret not having gone to university, which I could have gone after the war. I have not seen as much of my family as I really should have done. But all life is a choice, and if you want to succeed, then you have got to commit yourself to getting things done.

Presenter25:31

And then therefore, so that's the way you do it. Now, at the end of the day, when you when you've gone through this life as you've described it, what then is the accolade? What is the achievement at the end of it?

Robert Maxwell25:41

The achievement at the end of it is that I feel that my life, which I am continuing to live to the full, and will do so until the day I die,

Robert Maxwell25:51

I will have left the world a slightly better place.

Robert Maxwell25:55

by having lived in it,

Robert Maxwell25:57

and have influenced few things in people in the right direction, rather as if it hadn't mattered whether I was born, lived, or died.

Robert Maxwell26:07

Another choice of record, please. Part of Finlandia by Sibelius.

Robert Maxwell26:12

Very uplifting.

Presenter27:15

Part of Fymandia by Siberius, the Halley Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbaroli.

Presenter27:21

Bob, to pick you up on that point you made about leaving the world a a better place at the end of of your life, what specifically that you're involved in now would you see as being as achieving that? Would it be your work for the AIDS Trust, for instance? I mean, is that something you regard as being very important?

Robert Maxwell27:36

And I have been pleased to accept.

Robert Maxwell27:38

An invitation to join with colleagues. This is an invitation from the government.

Robert Maxwell27:43

to set up the AIDS Trust, and my task it will be

Robert Maxwell27:48

to raise fifty million pounds, which is a lot of money.

Robert Maxwell27:53

bulk of which will go towards funding research to try and discover a cure, but a lot of it will also go

Robert Maxwell28:01

to help sufferers of the

Robert Maxwell28:03

and disease.

Robert Maxwell28:05

And we have got to help them, otherwise we're not

Robert Maxwell28:08

civilized. One of my ambitions

Robert Maxwell28:12

Is to create a worldwide communication and information group out of BPCC.

Robert Maxwell28:20

and which I am in danger of actually achieving.

Robert Maxwell28:23

I am a candidate from Europe.

Robert Maxwell28:26

to build one of these great ten corporations in this field, which will help make a great deal of money for my shareholders, provide enormous number of jobs at home.

Presenter28:34

Mario

Robert Maxwell28:38

and abroad, and give Britain and Europe an influential place at the top table of information and communication.

Robert Maxwell28:48

which is at the heart of everything, whether it's at peace or war.

Robert Maxwell28:53

or um new technology or entertainment, quicker solution to such problems as cancer.

Robert Maxwell29:01

And so on.

Robert Maxwell29:02

And so

Robert Maxwell29:03

I still have

Robert Maxwell29:05

ambitions which I intend.

Robert Maxwell29:08

God's help to fulfill.

Robert Maxwell29:13

This is Smetana, a Czech composer, part of his Voltava, which is the river that flows in Prague, played by the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Wáclaw Neumann.

Presenter30:27

Part of Boltova from Svedna's My Country, the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Václav Neumann.

Presenter30:35

Robert Maxwell, you're now on your desert island. You're going to enjoy the experience, do you think? Yes. I have, and would if

Robert Maxwell30:42

If it were a real desertar. Would you

Presenter30:43

He tried to escape

Robert Maxwell30:44

Escape those.

Presenter30:44

Yeah. You think

Robert Maxwell30:46

Not for a little while. I will I

Presenter30:47

I could use the luxury of having time to think. Right. And then let's have the the choice of book then. You can assume that you have on the island the works of Shakespeare and the Bible. What what other book would you choose?

Robert Maxwell30:59

Uh

Robert Maxwell31:00

I would choose a book on Plato, the Philosopher, which is an edition that I treasure from the Britannia great books.

Robert Maxwell31:10

That's a man who lived before Jesus Christ.

Robert Maxwell31:16

and who posed all of the questions about how humanity should govern itself.

Robert Maxwell31:22

And what are the alternatives?

Presenter31:25

And what about the choice of record? Imagine tidal wave comes along, wipes away seven, you've got one left. Which would you choose to keep? I would stick to Gershwin's Porgy and Bass. And then you're allowed one luxury object, inanimate. Unhesitatingly I would choose a computer programme to play chess.

Presenter31:43

Yeah. Robert Maxwell, thank you very much indeed.

Speaker 331:52

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.