Sir Ian MacGregor

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty six, and the presenter was Michael Parkinson.

Presenter0:30

It's difficult to imagine a more intriguing or controversial figure than our Castaway.

Presenter0:34

His time spent as Chairman of British Steel and then at the Coal Board divided the nation into those who regarded him as an ogre and those who saw him as a saviour.

Presenter0:44

One critic described him as the industrial butcher for Thatcherism. On the other hand, the Economist thought him to be the man who gave Britain the chance of remaining a relatively rich country in the twenty first century. He is Sir Ian MacGregor.

Presenter0:58

Sarion, let's go back to the very beginnings. You you were born in Scotland. What sort of a community was it?

Sir Ian MacGregor1:03

I was born in a place called Kinloch Leven, which was a little enclave at the head of a fjord, if you will.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:12

rather like the Norwegian fairs.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:14

in which there was a factory for the production of aluminium.

Presenter1:18

Uh

Sir Ian MacGregor1:19

It was built there in the early part of the century, nineteen six to nineteen eight.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:25

and the community was more or less totally isolated.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:29

like a mining camp in the back woods. What about your

Presenter1:32

Father, was he employed by the Animal New Company?

Sir Ian MacGregor1:34

Yes, he joined the company when it was originally founded in eighteen ninety five and

Sir Ian MacGregor1:40

In Veneshaire, Fores on Loch Ness.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:44

where the first aluminium factory in uh the United Kingdom was built in eighteen ninety five.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:50

harnessed the water power from the river that flowed through that community.

Sir Ian MacGregor1:56

That was a very tiny little factory, and the company finally got on its feet and prospered enough to try to expand, and they had to move to another area to find more water power.

Sir Ian MacGregor2:08

and Kinnockleven was that area.

Presenter2:10

What about being brought up in that tight little community? Was it a very strict upbringing?

Sir Ian MacGregor2:15

Oh, yes. Well, I

Sir Ian MacGregor2:17

Parents were quite heavily involved in the community affairs. My father was quite active in local education and housing and all of the other

Sir Ian MacGregor2:27

things that went with that uh isolated community.

Presenter2:28

Uh

Sir Ian MacGregor2:30

It was literally a company town.

Sir Ian MacGregor2:33

Uh

Sir Ian MacGregor2:34

We had an important part in most of the activities around and

Sir Ian MacGregor2:40

In fact, my godfather was the um

Sir Ian MacGregor2:44

minister of the parish.

Sir Ian MacGregor2:47

His church, however, was about fifteen miles away down the Loch.

Sir Ian MacGregor2:52

He would come up every so often to uh preach in in the community.

Sir Ian MacGregor2:58

and there were no facilities for him, so he stayed with our family.

Sir Ian MacGregor3:02

And uh it was that way that he sort of adopted me as his godson and uh

Sir Ian MacGregor3:09

from time to time took me down to his manse down in the little village of Onik.

Sir Ian MacGregor3:17

He was a widower, so he had a elderly housekeeper who looked after him and uh

Sir Ian MacGregor3:23

I was the guest down there.

Sir Ian MacGregor3:26

My

Sir Ian MacGregor3:28

Early education and upbringing was much influenced by

Sir Ian MacGregor3:32

not only the Reverend John McCaskill,

Sir Ian MacGregor3:35

But by his housekeeper, who was a very severe lady. Was it joyless? No, no, it was great fun.

Presenter3:43

Saria, let's have a first choice of record now.

Sir Ian MacGregor3:46

I must have a sort of theme song, and I suggest that we play a passage from Amazing Grace, performed by the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.

Presenter4:52

Seren, let's go back to that childhood you were talking about. What did you want to be?

Sir Ian MacGregor4:57

I had no ideas when I was young. I never had any great uh fixations. I don't think I ever wanted to be an engine driver for long. Uh the idea of my career was uh developed only in later years.

Presenter5:12

What about the times that you lived in though? I mean, we're we're now talking about the depression years, aren't we, when you were growing up?

Sir Ian MacGregor5:17

Well, yes, uh

Presenter5:18

How bad were they?

Sir Ian MacGregor5:19

Well, they were very bad indeed. We moved from the Highlands to Glasgow.

Sir Ian MacGregor5:25

And I lived there until the early thirties. The depression in that area was um very, very dramatic and tragic.

Sir Ian MacGregor5:37

Actually, one of the experiences I had was the famous story of the five three four.

Sir Ian MacGregor5:44

That was the number given to the hull of that great vessel which started building in the early thirties on the Clyde side.

Sir Ian MacGregor5:52

And when they got the hull up to uh, I think the top deck,

Sir Ian MacGregor5:57

which was several

Sir Ian MacGregor5:59

hundred feet above the water line.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:03

The job was stopped.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:05

That hull stood there in Clydebank and was visible for miles around.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:11

And it was a sort of symbol of the tragedy of uh times.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:17

I remember also when the government finally decided to finance the Cunard line to complete the vessel.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:25

Two's the middle of the thirties when the uh

Sir Ian MacGregor6:28

threat of war started to become clear.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:32

And that absolutely electrified the community when the news came that.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:38

Five three four was to be completed.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:41

became, of course, the Queen Mary, and was followed shortly thereafter by the building of the Queen Elizabeth.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:47

These were great days on the Clyde side.

Presenter6:50

Let's have another choice of record.

Sir Ian MacGregor6:52

Well, I think that we'll stay with the Scottish theme. How about Mendelsohn's overture, The Hebrides? This one is played by the Scottish National Orchestra under the direction of Sir Alexander Gibson.

Presenter8:08

So in in nineteen forty you left Scotland and went to America. What were the circumstances?

Sir Ian MacGregor8:14

Well, after the uh evacuation of Dunkirk,

Sir Ian MacGregor8:17

The government became concerned about the loss of equipment which was left behind in Europe.

Sir Ian MacGregor8:25

I was working at William Bairdmore's in Glasgow, engaged in the production of tanks, tank parts, guns and armor plate for both tanks and battleships.

Sir Ian MacGregor8:39

And the decision was made that an attempt would be mounted to get some help from North America.

Sir Ian MacGregor8:47

In the form of perhaps finished vehicles, finished tanks and guns and things like this.

Sir Ian MacGregor8:53

Up to that time, the British government had tended to buy only airplanes and supplies from the United States, and the policy was changed and it was decided to try quickly to get some tanks built there.

Sir Ian MacGregor9:07

And because of my particular background,

Sir Ian MacGregor9:10

and the work I'd been doing

Sir Ian MacGregor9:13

I was, if you will, conscripted by the uh Ministry of Supply.

Sir Ian MacGregor9:18

and made part of a mission that was sent to North America, first of all to Canada and then to Washington to try to get a program of tank building started.

Presenter9:28

When you got to America, was it love at first sight?

Sir Ian MacGregor9:31

Well, I must say that I was impressed by the change in scale.

Sir Ian MacGregor9:36

I think this still impresses people. Everything is on a very much larger scale. And there was a degree of, shall I say, energy apparent in the way things happened and the way things were done.

Presenter9:50

Did you find it very easy to progress after the war in industry? Because eventually you became boss, very rapidly became boss of a huge mining company, didn't you?

Sir Ian MacGregor9:58

Well, the opportunities are there, but it's a highly competitive society.

Sir Ian MacGregor10:04

And uh

Sir Ian MacGregor10:05

I had my setbacks, but the

Sir Ian MacGregor10:09

prospects of finding alternatives were open and I

Sir Ian MacGregor10:13

I utilize them to the best of my ability. But I must say that my rigid British training.

Sir Ian MacGregor10:20

was very helpful.

Sir Ian MacGregor10:22

I found myself competing with people and I thought my British education stood up well in comparison with other people who were technically trained in the United States that I met who were competitors. Let's

Presenter10:35

Let's have another choice of records, Rand.

Sir Ian MacGregor10:37

I've often listened to Handel and I think the water music is one of the favorites that I have.

Sir Ian MacGregor10:45

Here's a sample played by the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Raymond Lepard.

Presenter11:53

Serean, here we have you immensely successful in America. You made it to the very top. What made you look to Britain?

Sir Ian MacGregor12:00

Well, it uh seemed to me that when I got to uh retiring from active business and had taken up, if you will, a post retirement career in the banking business,

Sir Ian MacGregor12:11

I found that my visits here indicated that Britain wasn't making quite as much progress as I had hoped.

Sir Ian MacGregor12:17

And certainly during the seventies this country was the victim of a terrible scourge of inflation.

Sir Ian MacGregor12:24

And I was absolutely appalled at the way that this

Sir Ian MacGregor12:28

demolished the industrial capability of the country.

Sir Ian MacGregor12:33

In the seventies I was still actively involved in a number of enterprises around the world, and I

Sir Ian MacGregor12:39

For example, in Australia, I remember once we were discussing the purchase of some new equipment with a group of Australian engineers and

Sir Ian MacGregor12:48

I said, well, we should get British generators and diesel engines.

Sir Ian MacGregor12:53

And they said, No, we're going to buy German.

Sir Ian MacGregor12:57

I said, why?

Sir Ian MacGregor12:59

Well, we've had experience with the British.

Sir Ian MacGregor13:02

The material comes out here, usually a couple of years late, after they've promised it, and then when it arrives.

Sir Ian MacGregor13:10

It uh doesn't work right and we have people running back and forth trying to make it work.

Sir Ian MacGregor13:16

And we prefer to buy the German.

Sir Ian MacGregor13:18

When I looked at the figures, I said the German is very much dearer.

Sir Ian MacGregor13:22

They said, Yes, it may be dearer, but it will come on the date that they say it's going to come, and it will also work when it comes, so we will save two years and that will pay for the difference. Things like this disturbed me and made me feel that

Presenter13:37

Maybe

Sir Ian MacGregor13:39

Something had to be done.

Presenter13:41

Your first job, I think, your first major job was at British Leyland, where exactly all those bad things that are said about British industry are said about the British car industry, aren't they?

Sir Ian MacGregor13:50

Yes, and in fact I remember in the early days of uh my presence on the board

Sir Ian MacGregor13:57

going over some figures that were presented to the board on the warranties on the jaguar.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:03

This was the amount of money that was paid to dealers for doing repair work to cars after they'd been delivered to customers. The repair work was charged back to the factory.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:15

and the numbers were extraordinary.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:17

And uh I think it was at that point that the campaign was started to do something about getting the Jaguar quality right.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:25

which, of course, John Egan has succeeded in doing to day.

Presenter14:29

But why was the quality not right? I mean, why was it shoddy workmanship? What's the root of it?

Sir Ian MacGregor14:32

Because the fundamental, I think, was that people felt that uh it wasn't really their responsibility to worry about their job was to put in the such and such a piece of equipment

Sir Ian MacGregor14:45

If it was inconvenient to screw it in the right way, then they did the best they could and let it go at that.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:53

We had this terrible problem of lack of interest in the product.

Sir Ian MacGregor14:58

People had lost the connection between themselves and the customer.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:04

And uh, you know, I think that it's part of a general syndrome that invaded the whole of British society. The

Sir Ian MacGregor15:12

Business of uh not looking beyond your own particular little sphere of interest.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:18

One of the campaigns, I think, that was conducted at Leyland was to try to

Sir Ian MacGregor15:23

identify for our employees the importance of their participating in getting the product right.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:30

Egan, as I say, has done just that at Jag.

Presenter15:34

Your next move was in nineteen eighty, you became chairman of British Steel. And it was here you got the tag, the Industrial Butcher, for Thatcherism. I mean, that's not a fair description, if you would say.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:45

Well, you know, these activities I was engaged in are somewhat uh political.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:51

And politicians love to coin phrases and sling out these words.

Sir Ian MacGregor15:57

They then go down and meet in the bar and pat each other in the back. But I didn't get too many pats on the back.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:04

Actually, the problem was very simple that Britain had started in the sixties with a pretty inefficient economy.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:13

and wages were very low by world standards.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:18

and efficiencies were low and the m management standards were low.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:22

However, the inflation of the seventies resulted in Britain changing from a low labour cost country to a high labour cost country.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:32

And it was that dramatic change in the seventies that demolished our manufacturing industries because our costs rose at a very high rate. So we ended the seventies with high labor costs and still inefficient operations.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:48

For example, when I went to British Steel,

Sir Ian MacGregor16:51

We were turning out sheet steel in uh some of the uh mills in South Wales.

Sir Ian MacGregor16:58

With a requirement of sixteen man-hours per ton of product.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:03

Well, the Japanese at that time were turning out the same product with maybe something like six man hours per ton, and getting better all the time.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:12

The Germans were following close behind, and British Steel was losing its business. The reason is that we had too many people for the work that we had to perform.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:22

We had to get higher efficiencies. If we were going to get higher wages, the only way to reach them would be with higher efficiencies.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:29

So I started work down that track.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:32

And I found, of course, that the managers at British Steel were perfectly aware of what had to be done.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:39

And they were capable men, too.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:41

They just had been the victims of the political pressures which during the seventies seemed to encourage inefficiency in industry.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:51

I must say that these men turned around and reacted extremely well.

Sir Ian MacGregor17:55

And I had a very happy time, in a way, working with them because they were such capable fellows. The reckless right.

Sir Ian MacGregor18:04

Well, I think that uh it might be worth while to try out my favorite singer.

Sir Ian MacGregor18:10

Luciano Pavarotti has of course uh got quite a reputation here in Britain.

Sir Ian MacGregor18:16

But I heard him once singing in Montreal on a Christmas Eve, and I think this particular rendering of Panus Angelicus from Caesar Frank is worth listening to.

Speaker 418:37

Give the body slowly Lord.

Speaker 418:46

All these champions favour his name all

Speaker 418:58

God rest me on beneath

Speaker 419:20

And greetings.

Presenter19:29

Syrian, let's now talk about your period at the Killboard. Was there a certain kind of inevitability about the fact that uh you and Arthur Scargill would meet in a head on collision?

Sir Ian MacGregor19:39

Yes.

Sir Ian MacGregor19:40

I got the impression from Scargill's utterances after the nineteen eighty three election.

Sir Ian MacGregor19:47

that he felt he had a mission.

Sir Ian MacGregor19:49

A personal mission to try to find some way to undermine the.

Sir Ian MacGregor19:54

Elected government.

Sir Ian MacGregor19:56

I was quite honest about it, to give him credit, he was quite public in his statements.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:01

But it identified the threat that was ahead of us.

Presenter20:05

Was it a um a battle that you relished?

Sir Ian MacGregor20:07

I don't think people really relish destructive battles.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:11

But on the other hand, it seemed to me that the prospects of his success

Sir Ian MacGregor20:18

would have wreaked such havoc on this country.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:22

that something had to be done about it.

Presenter20:24

Much was made in the uh press at the time during the the strike, and and since has been speculation, that having identified what Scargill was about in your own mind, and having identified the style of the man, that you deliberately provoked the strike, particularly by closing down Courtenwood Colliery.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:42

Well, I think I think that's somewhat of a exaggeration.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:47

Scargo spent a great deal of time working up the emotions of his members.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:52

And uh in the spring of nineteen eighty four.

Sir Ian MacGregor20:59

The colour was required.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:01

To discuss with the unions its plans for the next year. We had a system of consultation which required that.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:10

Well, in the past I suspect that the uh

Sir Ian MacGregor21:14

official lines were perhaps not as clearly laid out as I thought were required.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:24

and I took the opportunity

Sir Ian MacGregor21:26

To be totally frank about what I thought had to be done in the business.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:32

This of course was received uh with uh

Sir Ian MacGregor21:36

A great deal of concern and unhappiness by Scargo and his associates.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:41

I explained that we were in a period in which the consumption of energy in this country had declined.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:49

partly because its cost had increased.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:52

And uh partly because of the uh slowdown in industry on a worldwide basis.

Sir Ian MacGregor21:58

and uh that we had to, if you will, cut our cloth in accordance with the markets that were available to us.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:07

So we laid out a plan for the next year which showed a modest reduction in capacity.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:13

And we have, of course, a number of different areas, and each one is headed by an area director.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:20

I've always worked on the principle of decentralized management.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:24

We look to each of these area directors as a sort of manager of his own business.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:31

Requirements for next year.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:33

Your customers' requirements are going to need you to come up with some.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:38

Downward adjustment in your production.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:41

The particular area that involved Courton Wood in Yorkshire had to produce some curtailment.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:50

And the suggestion was made by the area director at the time.

Sir Ian MacGregor22:55

that he felt that his people at Courtonwood recognized that it was high cost.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:02

and that uh something should be done about that mine.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:06

And he assured me that probably the thing to do would be to lead off by curtailing production of that mine and ultimately eliminating it.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:15

And I pursued this policy of being totally frank about our plans, and I said, Well, you better discuss this with your people, which he did immediately.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:24

This was seized on as a pretext for uh

Sir Ian MacGregor23:27

They strike.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:28

As you know, Courtonwood finally and ultimately closed with all of the people in Courtonwood agreeing to the closure.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:36

for the simple reason that the facts that uh were available to us in nineteen eighty four were just the same in nineteen eighty five when it was closed.

Presenter23:46

Let's have another choice of records, Ram.

Sir Ian MacGregor23:48

Well, I'm a great uh an enthusiast for piano concertos. And uh here's one, list concerto number two, and it is played by Claudio Aran.

Sir Ian MacGregor24:00

and the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Colin Davis.

Presenter25:03

Syrian, you give the impression, your record actually speaks to itself, as being a man of firm resolve. You know there's a job to be done and you do it and you do it in a fairly straightforward manner. How do you square this with working with politicians who are not renowned for that kind of approach or attitude toward a problem? I mean, do you think during the cold strike, for instance, that there were moments when the government were weakening, that they wanted you to change tactics?

Sir Ian MacGregor25:28

Well, I'm sure that the distress of the coal strike concerned many of our senior politicians on all sides of the House.

Sir Ian MacGregor25:38

and particularly the party in power.

Sir Ian MacGregor25:42

I know that there was great discomfort in many quarters, and it was it was expressed quite frankly by some.

Sir Ian MacGregor25:49

But this is understandable.

Sir Ian MacGregor25:51

It probably

Sir Ian MacGregor25:54

Is one of the reasons why I felt I had a responsibility to try to um keep my feet in the ground and not be carried away by

Sir Ian MacGregor26:06

Expedient

Sir Ian MacGregor26:08

Solutions to problems.

Sir Ian MacGregor26:10

Politics today has become increasingly

Sir Ian MacGregor26:14

a matter of expedient solutions to problems.

Sir Ian MacGregor26:17

Let's have another choice of brackets ring.

Sir Ian MacGregor26:20

Well, uh, this time I would like Smeten as The Moldow. This is played by the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Rafael Kubelet.

Presenter27:28

Serene, you've written a book called The Enemy Within, which is an an account of all that we've been talking about today. I've got to tell you, of course, I I've not read the book, so I'm at a grave disadvantage. Your publishers treating it like some kind of classified document.

Sir Ian MacGregor27:41

It's right is almost a very secret classified document at this stage in the game.

Presenter27:46

But what what I want to ask you is the reason for writing the book. I mean, is it that you felt that you had been misrepresented, particularly throughout your term of office at the Cole Board?

Sir Ian MacGregor27:55

Well, it wasn't a question of my being misrepresented. I thought it would be useful to uh project my side of the picture and let people make their own judgments.

Sir Ian MacGregor28:05

I made certain assessments of uh what was happening and uh I thought it was worthwhile recording.

Presenter28:11

When you look back at that period that you've spent in British industry, you've got this this very remarkable and unique view of our society and and and our work. What conclusions do you come to? I mean, is there hope for the future? I mean, are we going to get better or is it going to get worse?

Sir Ian MacGregor28:25

Oh, you're going to

Presenter28:26

Get better.

Sir Ian MacGregor28:27

Of course.

Presenter28:27

Yeah.

Sir Ian MacGregor28:28

See, the great problem facing the world is that today

Sir Ian MacGregor28:32

Technology is diffused totally around the globe. Everyone's got uh access to how to build ships, how to make airplanes, how to make engines. All of that is common knowledge now.

Sir Ian MacGregor28:44

And thus we're in a very difficult situation where

Sir Ian MacGregor28:47

The work goes to those who are most efficient or produce the best product.

Sir Ian MacGregor28:53

At the best price?

Sir Ian MacGregor28:55

And that frequently means it goes to the people with the lowest labor costs. Many products like shipbuilding, the shipbuilding business has gone to the people with the lowest costs.

Presenter29:06

So yeah, I must have another choice of record.

Sir Ian MacGregor29:08

Well, I go back to another piano concerto. This is The Emperor, number five, by Beethoven.

Sir Ian MacGregor29:15

And uh it's played by Vladimir Ashkenazi.

Sir Ian MacGregor29:19

together with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by George Salte.

Presenter30:23

Serena, you're you're seventy-four years of age now. You're a wealthy man. You don't have to keep on working. Why do you keep on working at the rate you do?

Sir Ian MacGregor30:31

I enjoy it.

Sir Ian MacGregor30:33

find that to be a very practical way of life.

Sir Ian MacGregor30:37

Certainly doesn't seem to do any harm to work.

Sir Ian MacGregor30:41

As a matter of fact, I think probably the greatest danger that uh faces us is changing our lives from one of activity to one of inactivity.

Speaker 430:49

Binak

Sir Ian MacGregor30:50

I think it has a very bad effect.

Sir Ian MacGregor30:52

There used to be an old gentleman in the US who was one of our railroad barons.

Sir Ian MacGregor30:57

and he was a portly fellow.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:00

but he lived to ninety four years of age.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:04

And some one once said to him, Tell me, how is it that you have survived so long?

Sir Ian MacGregor31:11

without taking any exercise.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:14

He said, I think that's why I've survived.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:17

The most exercise I take.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:19

Today

Sir Ian MacGregor31:21

is as a pall bearer carrying the coffins of my younger friends.

Presenter31:27

Uh

Presenter31:28

But eventually when you well let's put it another way, not retirement but slowing down a bit perhaps, do you foresee a time when you might come back and return to your native Scotland?

Sir Ian MacGregor31:36

Well, I spend all the time I can in Scotland. I enjoy it very much, and particularly the people.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:43

in the part of the world I've originated from, they're really wonderful people. And I would hope to spend uh an increasing portion of my

Sir Ian MacGregor31:52

Spared time there.

Presenter31:55

Final choice of records, Reynolds.

Sir Ian MacGregor31:57

The last one is an example of something produced by a fellow engineer.

Sir Ian MacGregor32:04

What's that? Mr. Borodin, that great uh Russian chemist, engineer, and composer.

Sir Ian MacGregor32:12

And uh the

Sir Ian MacGregor32:13

Opera, he wrote, Prince Igar, has one very interesting and stimulating passage, and I think we should play the

Sir Ian MacGregor32:22

Palozzi and Dances. This is by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

Sir Ian MacGregor32:27

Conducted by Rafael Kubalik.

Speaker 432:48

Soldiers.

Speaker 433:21

Uh

Presenter33:30

Serene, you're now on your desert island. Would you cope very well with this solitude, do you think?

Sir Ian MacGregor33:34

Well, I'd hope so.

Sir Ian MacGregor33:36

Good.

Sir Ian MacGregor33:37

believe that that's something that you've got to uh adjust yourself to.

Presenter33:41

You try to escape.

Sir Ian MacGregor33:44

Well, I'm trying to figure out how to escape, yes.

Presenter33:47

Right, now we've got to imagine that all the records you've got there, your eight records, that seven are swept away by some tidal wave, one is left. Which one would you want to keep?

Sir Ian MacGregor33:54

Well, I think we'd keep the Hebridean overture because it has sentimental.

Sir Ian MacGregor34:00

A Dutchman

Presenter34:02

And what about the book? One book.

Sir Ian MacGregor34:04

Well, I would probably keep the um

Sir Ian MacGregor34:07

Encyclopedia Britannica.

Sir Ian MacGregor34:10

And the reason for that is that

Sir Ian MacGregor34:12

One should always be learning.

Sir Ian MacGregor34:15

and the encyclopedia contains vast sources of knowledge. As long as uh one lives and uh has an interest in life, you continue to learn.

Presenter34:27

And what about the luxury object?

Sir Ian MacGregor34:30

Well, probably a thermos jug so that I can keep the water cool in the hot days. Siri, McGregor. Thank you very much indeed.

Speaker 334:44

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