Gordon Beningfield

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's Archive. For rights' reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty five, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:29

This week, our castaway is the artist and naturalist Gordon Benningfield. Gordon, is music important in your life?

Gordon Beningfield0:36

Oh, yes, very much so, Roy.

Gordon Beningfield0:38

I mean I think if you have any connections with the arts you've got to be interested in music and poetry and sculpture and painting. The whole lot, because I feel that artists are influenced within themselves, within their friends and within artists and composers and writers of the past. So music does play a great part, certainly my life, yes. Have you any musical skill? Do you play an instrument? Unfortunately not. I'd love to be able to play an instrument but I haven't got round to it no. But you do play?

Presenter1:03

Play discs and did you find it very difficult to choose just

Gordon Beningfield1:06

Eight

Gordon Beningfield1:06

Slightly, yes. I mean, there's many things you you love, but there are certain records and recordings of important pieces of music which reflect parts of your life, so it was relatively easy for me to pick the eight. Well, what's the first one? Well, the first one is George Shearing I'll Remember April, because it was the first record I ever bought in the fifties, and it reminds me very much of those times.

Presenter2:32

George Shering.

Presenter2:33

I'll remember April, the first record you ever bought.

Presenter2:37

You are a cunning

Gordon Beningfield2:38

Yeah. Triman, of course, Gordon.

Presenter2:39

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield2:39

Will you

Presenter2:39

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield2:39

Boom.

Presenter2:39

One of the

Gordon Beningfield2:40

In the country? Oh, no, I was born in London, near Tower of London, Bermondsey, that area.'Cause my father's profession was the River Thames. He was a lighterman.

Gordon Beningfield2:48

And uh his family really grew up on the river. They were minor boat builders and certainly connected with the river. I left wo w what nineteen forty one when I was four years old because of the Blitz of London. Exactly. The final onslaught onto the docks sent my father away from London because we we went to Hertfordshire, my mother and I, before he did, and then with the final blitz of the docks he followed us on uh and then became uh a fireman in Hertfordshire and I've lived there ever since. In Hertfordshire? Yes. Are you one of a big family? Oh no, I just have one brother.

Speaker 43:12

Uh

Gordon Beningfield3:21

Ten years younger than mine.

Presenter3:21

Myself. Did you take to village life? Did you enjoy it? What was it a shattering change, or was it something you embraced?

Gordon Beningfield3:28

I think it's something I took to straight away. I love the open countryside. When I say open country, of course it was much tighter in those days, with big hedgerows and meadows and woodlands. Hertfordshire is much more airy now, apart from a few pockets of it. But no, I loved the country life straight away, and I was fascinated by the farms and the wildlife, even at that early stage. My father used to put me on the crossbar of his bicycle, because he was an amateur artist, and we used to cycle off, and he used to show me things to paint and draw. And he taught you a little about painting and drawing. Oh, yeah, I mean, at that period of time, he taught me a tremendous amount, because when I went to school, and later on at school, they did ask me how is it I sort of understood the quality of three-dimensional drawing. And I said, well, my dad showed me this sort of thing. So, yeah, I mean, he was the first influence, certainly. And he continued.

Presenter3:41

Pass.

Presenter4:02

Oh

Gordon Beningfield4:20

He had a great uh amount of influence on me right the way through.

Presenter4:23

You started at a village school.

Gordon Beningfield4:25

Yes, indeed. Oh, yes. What were you good at at school? Oh, very little. Uh well, I could paint and I could draw. I was fascinated with history. I was quite good at athletics. I loved gardening because I could lose myself in the wood at the back of the school, so I could get lost. But really and truly, my school academically didn't exist. But I had a wonderful headmaster who allowed me to paint pictures all the time. Oh, yes. For the last three years of my time at school, I was painting pictures. And you were taught to observe the countryside and important things like that. Oh, indeed, yes. In fact, he um my headmaster was the first person that introduced me into uh Turner, the the painter which has influenced me uh ever since. What was your first ambition? Did you think it was feasible and possible for you to be an artist?

Presenter4:54

Get

Gordon Beningfield5:16

Financially, absolutely no. I certainly wanted to be an artist, but how I was going to achieve it I didn't know. But uh when I left school I was extremely lucky because within St Albans, the town in Hertfordshire, there was a group of studios run by the Anglican Church where they used to create ecclesiastical art, painting sculpture, designing for all the interiors of churches. And I was able to get a position there. Who introduced you to that? Well there was a thing called the Youth Employment Agency, or something rather like that, where when children left school you would go and say what you wanted to do and they would try and place you and to my absolute amazement they placed me in this studio. Let's have another record. What's your second? Well thinking of the early time and jazz and the fifties, it must be Dave Brubeck, I'm in a dancing mood.

Presenter7:07

I'm in a dancing mood, the Dave Brubeck Quartet.

Presenter7:10

So the ecclesiastical studios in St. Albans. Did the ecclesiastical side appeal to you as much as the artistic side? Were you interested in the church and in religious matters?

Gordon Beningfield7:20

No, I to be honest, Roy, I was not deeply interested in that. I mean, no more than any young person leaving school and thinking about the subject. But I was very concerned about trying to become an artist. And within that period of working with this ecclesiastical group, there was a most incredible group of craftsmen. Were there ecclesiastics there, priest? Not really, no. The the the directors of the company were, but the actual craftsmen and the artists were just straightforward ordinary people. How many were working in the studio? All in all, something like about twenty-two. Exercising how many different crafts? Well, there would be the department at the top of the studio, which was where we were painting murals and heraldry and producing sculpture. And then the next floor was the furnishings, creating pews and pulpits, all in oak. And then, of course, right at the bottom, there was a machine shop, producing the mouldings and all the decorative bits and pieces. So it was a tremendous group of very fine craftsmen. Did you work in stone as well? Yes, I did, yes. I worked in stone and glass fibre later on.

Presenter8:27

On stained glass, of course.

Gordon Beningfield8:29

And stained glass came on when I left St Albans, and the last five years I worked in Westminster in the studio, same company.

Presenter8:36

Uh

Gordon Beningfield8:36

But there I was just working basically on stained glass. And you have worked in stained glass since then? Yes, I do the occasional window for the Brigade of Guards, in fact. I was amazed when the Household Cavalry asked me to design a window for him. That was engraved glass. And I was extremely lucky to get the job. And I've done something like six windows for the Gaz Chapel since. Yes, I do occasionally do ecclesiastical work, yes. How long did you have that extraordinarily good training? How long did it last? Oh, about thirteen years. Thirteen years? Yes, it was the only job I've had, Rob.

Presenter8:59

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter9:11

Right, well you had to leave. We'll talk about your next adventures after we've heard record number three.

Gordon Beningfield9:14

Sure.

Gordon Beningfield9:18

Record number three is Delius on hearing the first cuckoo in spring because it very much reminds me of Dorset in May. I always go to Dorset in May and I love to hear the cuckoo.

Presenter10:30

On hearing the first cuckoo in spring by Delius Sir Thomas Beacham conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. So after thirteen years you left that ecclesiastical group. What did you do?

Gordon Beningfield10:42

Well, I had about six months' commissioned work in sculpture but I was really wanting to have my first London exhibition.

Gordon Beningfield10:51

Depicting my great love of the English countryside and its wildlife. So.

Presenter10:55

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield10:56

The sculpture over the first two years of leaving work enabled me

Gordon Beningfield11:01

To have the financial position to build up enough paintings to hold my first London exhibition. Where was it? That was at the Moreland Gallery in Cork Street.

Presenter11:10

It is, of course, very expensive for a young artist. He's got to have everything framed, or he's got to frame it himself, which takes a long, long

Gordon Beningfield11:16

Done.

Presenter11:16

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield11:16

Indeed, yes, Roy. I mean, I remember the days when I used to have to frame all my own pictures. I'd be quite happy to do it now. It's a question of time. But no, yeah, I mean, it it was the sculpture commissions which enabled me to

Gordon Beningfield11:28

Really put together a collection of paintings to put on show. And you had good fortune, you sold. Some of them.

Presenter11:36

Sell them all. Now you decided from now on you were going to freelance, is that right?

Gordon Beningfield11:40

Yes.

Presenter11:40

Did you work at home? Did you take a studio?

Gordon Beningfield11:43

Yes, I I was working at home. I did have a small studio in the garden and I worked entirely from there. Travelling

Gordon Beningfield11:50

the home counties, which is my favorite area, and looking at the countryside and its wildlife, and I sort of bounced from first of all bird painting into mammals, and then eventually spending a lot of time studying butterflies.

Presenter12:04

You had family responsibilities, of course. You were married? Oh, yes, I was married with two daughters. Were you selling enough pictures, or did you have to do

Presenter12:12

drawings for advertising and that sort of thing occasionally.

Gordon Beningfield12:15

No, fortunately I I've never had to do that. I've had enough money from the sale of paintings to just paint pictures. You did well with your first ex

Presenter12:23

exhibition, that was marvellous. What was the next good thing to happen?

Gordon Beningfield12:27

I think one of the next important things to happen was to be invited to do a programme by the BBC called Look Stranger. It was a lovely opportunity to do some television, which I'd never done before, and it really did project my work because my work was being shown to a small audience, people that really did collect paintings of the countryside and went into the West End galleries. But after this television programme it did give me a much wider audience and a lot of people could see my work. Look Stranger, what was that about? Well, it was a series of programmes which was sort of homing in on people which have created a a new profession, showing a different interest in different professions. And I suppose the fact that I'd left the ecclesiastical world and was developing my strong interest in the English countryside, it was a programme which they felt I could cope with.

Gordon Beningfield13:21

Let's have your next record.

Gordon Beningfield13:23

I'm very fond, Roy, of French Impressionist paintings and music, and the next record has got to be Sarty, Shimnopidi, orchestrated by Debussy. It's such a fine piece of delicate music, and it reflects perhaps the sunrise of Turner. It's so pure.

Presenter14:39

That is gymnopedy number two.

Presenter14:42

Arranged by Debussy, Bernard Herrmann and the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter14:48

You talked about the first television programme you did. You you've done quite a lot, the country game, for example.

Gordon Beningfield14:53

Yes, yes. Country Game came along. That was from the Natural History Unit at Bristol. But just before that there was a programme called In Deepest Britain. And that was when, let's say, three of us would be let loose into the countryside, say, seven o'clock in the morning, and you'd roam off. And in my case, I had to find things to paint. And you you made the whole programme in a day. Finished actually wrapped up.

Presenter15:13

Finish that.

Gordon Beningfield15:16

That really then was sort of swallowed up by In the Country, which eventually became Country Game and and all the names changed. But it was rather a a similar programme which was reflecting broad aspects of the English countryside. Was that the one that Angela Ripon used to work on? Yes, indeed, yes it was, yes. You do quite a lot of television at the moment? Not as much as I used to do. I used to d do something like six or seven programmes a year during that period of time. I still do television, yes, but I am so heavily committed with paintings at the moment. But I'm not saying I wouldn't do television when I'm asked. Of course you're not. Bonnie.

Presenter15:50

Uh

Gordon Beningfield15:50

So metum f

Presenter15:50

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield15:51

Yes, I I've made a film called A Brush with Hardy. That's really reflecting my interest in Thomas Hardy and also reflecting again my book Hardy Country.

Presenter15:59

Where did your interest in Thomas Hardy start? Because it it's not your neck of the woods, is it, the Hardy Country? No.

Gordon Beningfield16:05

No, I think, um, Roy, anybody that becomes interested in the English landscape uh and loves to study masters of the past, you can't avoid Hardy. I mean, to me, once I read a poem on Small Peace of Hardy, I wanted to see Dorset, I wanted to see that wonderful heartland which influenced him all his life. Fifteen years or so ago I went to Dorset, and to my amazement I did find corners that uh were echoing the words of Hardy. And I've been going ever since, uh three or four times a year.

Presenter16:38

Another example.

Gordon Beningfield16:38

Court

Presenter16:38

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield16:39

I'm thinking of myself being isolated on an island, Roy, and I'm rather worried about that at times. And I want things really to remind me of the countryside, so I'd love a soundtrack of a rookery in spring, because I do have a rookery in front of my cottage.

Speaker 316:45

Pooh.

Presenter17:52

Surprisingly, on your desert island, a rookery.

Presenter17:55

Now, Gordon, you're a country artist, a specialist, but you're a specialist within that style. You're spe

Gordon Beningfield18:03

Actually a a butterfly painter. Certainly, boy, I've spent many years painting butterflies and I love painting them. But they are just part of the fabric of the countryside that I love. I've looked at broad landscape, but then I've got down on my hands and knees and seen the landscape of a butterfly. And I felt they were totally overlooked as an art form, and really overlooked as regards natural history terms in many respects. How many varieties of butterfly are there in in these islands? Oh, we've got something towards seventy. That's including migrants, of course.

Presenter18:33

And you've drawn all the varieties there are.

Gordon Beningfield18:35

Most of'em, yes.

Presenter18:36

Obviously you can't learn to draw them on the wing. You you've got to work from specimens in glass cases to start with, and then observe the way they move.

Gordon Beningfield18:46

In actual fact, well I do it the other way round. I do a mass of quick drawings from life. Yeah. to get the attitude and the character and and the perspective of a living insect. And then I study them from a cabinet specimen, because I do love to paint them life size. So I measure them with a pair of dividers and develop them up from my original life drawings.

Presenter19:01

So I'm

Presenter19:07

What's being done to preserve butterflies? I mean, are we still going to have seventy varieties in five years' time? Farmers are being given subsidies to tear up hedgerows. I mean, we'll soon have prairies.

Speaker 419:17

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield19:18

Prairies

Presenter19:18

Where are you?

Gordon Beningfield19:20

Butterflies going to breed and live? Well, that is a serious problem. I've always said that I feel that all British butterflies are endangered. If you get the countryside right in in its patchwork quilt quality that we've had for centuries, well then butterflies look after themselves. But you cannot destroy their food plant and their cover and expect them to live. No, you've got to allow as much wild countryside as possible. I mean I've got one acre of garden which is absolutely wild and I really mean it Roy. It growls at you. I mean it really is wild. They've got to have the common things. They pick the species to live on which were common. But the other things we call weeds and we tear out and and remove them. And there's no way you can have those jewels on the wing in the summer days unless you give them wild England. Oh you've given an acre to

Presenter20:09

The butterflies. Now, is there anything the ordinary citizen with the small garden can do? Can he

Presenter20:14

Cultivate a a little patch of nettles or or something.

Gordon Beningfield20:18

Particularly for butterflies. Oh indeed, everyone can help. I mean start thinking about the cottage garden flowers, the old-fashioned flowers, which had a lot of nectar. A lot of the d sophisticated plants from market gardens and areas like that now really aren't catering for wild butterflies at all. So look at the old cottage garden and you don't get it far wrong and let plenty of nettles around, certainly won't, because our pretty butterflies lay their eggs on stinging nettles.

Presenter20:19

Oh and

Presenter20:43

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield20:43

You Where Bye to

Presenter20:44

But

Gordon Beningfield20:44

But it does

Presenter20:44

Uh

Gordon Beningfield20:45

And the b

Presenter20:45

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield20:45

Yeah.

Presenter20:45

A fly stamps a few years ago.

Gordon Beningfield20:47

Yes, I was. I was amazed to start because I didn't think I was capable of designing stamps, it's something I've never done. Um the Post Office were extremely kind to me and coaxed me along. And then, of course, I did feel how stupid I was, because if I managed to get the job, what a wonderful way of lifting butterflies in a commercial way, so that everyone could be having a butterfly in their home. And I do feel that the Post Office did a tremendous job and did a great deal for the awareness of butterflies.

Presenter21:17

You have a new series of stamps out now, Common English Insect.

Gordon Beningfield21:22

Well, some of them are common. What I've done, Roy, is I've selected five, where some are common, some particularly one known as the wart biter bush cricket. Oh, yes, well that is a little

Presenter21:33

Oh yes, well that is a little unusual. Where do we find that

Gordon Beningfield21:35

Well, you might find it in Dorset, you might find it in Wiltshire, and you might find it a bit of Sussex, but uh until the fifties it was thought to be extinct. But it's our bulkiest bush cricket, but it is our rarest at at the same time. And this wart biter business uh comes from uh the continental peasants, say, in about the seventeen hundreds, because I believe they used to put them on warts on their hands, thinking they might bite them off. So that's where the names come from.

Speaker 421:43

But

Presenter22:01

Well, I'm delighted to hear that it's surviving. Indeed, and thanks to you for publicizing it just a little. Another record.

Gordon Beningfield22:10

Yes, well

Gordon Beningfield22:11

Thinking of my interest in Dorset always and Thomas Hardy, the lovely old song Bushes and Briars I think Vaughan Williams found in Essex, but I would like to have the soundtrack from the film Far from the Madding Crowd. In which this tune was featured. Exactly.

Speaker 422:28

Through bushes and through briars I lately took my way

Gordon Beningfield22:31

Yeah.

Speaker 422:36

Oh for to hear the small birds sing, And the lambs to skip and play

Speaker 422:49

For to hear the small birds sing, And the lambs to skip and play

Presenter23:02

BUSHESE AND BRIARS, An Arrangement by RICHARD RODENY BENNET AND SUNG BY ILA CAMERON. I was thinking back on these stamps, these little insects on your stamps. How do you draw those? You you draw them much bigger and they're reduced?

Gordon Beningfield23:17

Yes, I draw them about twice up the size of a stamp. Only twice? Yes. I don't like to draw them too large, because there's a lot of detail you have to put in the work. And if it's reduced too much, it gets rather lumpy and blotchy. So you really have to think about that, Roy. And thinking of the craftsmen again, they've got to produce the final stamp from your paintings, you really have to think about the reduction. So I don't like to go too big. On the other hand, you can't go too small. So I think about twice up is about right.

Presenter23:40

If

Presenter23:46

And it's got to be very clear. Absolutely clear, yes. Your books we talked, I think, briefly about your butterfly book. You've also done a book of Benningfield's Countryside about the countryside in general.

Gordon Beningfield23:59

Yes. It's the sort of countryside where I live in Hertfordshire and my other great love, Dorset. And there's all sorts of episodes of landscape, small mammals and birds, and even my own cottage. Yes, a beautiful old, what, seventeenth century cottage? It's sixteenth century. Sixteenth century. Amazingly so, yes. And another book about the Hardy country. Yes. That's something that was very important to me. I I really wanted to

Presenter24:15

As my

Gordon Beningfield24:24

In other words, say thank you to Thomas Hardy for showing me

Gordon Beningfield24:27

which I would consider one of the most lovely parts of England. I went down there fourteen years or so ago, just to see if there was anything left of that wonderful landscape that influenced Hardy so deeply.

Gordon Beningfield24:39

And sure enough there was bits and pieces.

Gordon Beningfield24:43

Oh, I had to, right. What I was trying to do was to look.

Gordon Beningfield24:46

For people, for machinery, agricultural machinery, architecture, and general countryside. And the only way to find that, literally, is to search the tiny country lanes. What did you find that was most evocative? Oh, I found a hurdle maker in the Cranbourne Chase. Did you? Oh, still at it. Absolutely superb. Yeah, he was a wonderful man and still works in the Cranbourne Chase. And I said to him, Well, Cecil, it's like working in heaven. He said, Funny enough you say that, Gordon. It's called Heaven's Wood.

Presenter25:09

And I said

Gordon Beningfield25:16

Yeah.

Presenter25:16

And of course, your work has taken you on travels further afield. You did some work in Iceland a few years ago. What was that about?

Gordon Beningfield25:23

Don't talk to me about that, Roy. Iceland. Yeah, I I was asked to go to Iceland some many years back to produce an exhibition of the birds of Iceland.

Gordon Beningfield25:32

Well, fine. You know, the birds are delightful and I love them dearly. But the landscape for me was hideous. I mean, I I'm a small meadow, big hedgerow, woodland, very English type of person, and to see just expanse of rock and no, not for me. And I never went back, so I never had the exhibition. What's your next book to be?

Gordon Beningfield25:55

Oh, my next book is yeah, it's I think it's called something like Benningfield's English Landscapes, and it's an area looking at um from uh well, Yorkshire down to the west country. When are we going to see it? Well, hopefully, Roy, autumn of this year.

Gordon Beningfield26:11

Another record. Well, something totally different reflects my very early days and reminds me of my family during the war and right up to the present day because I, through my brother, was able to meet the brother of Glen Miller, Herb Miller, who still continues this wonderful sound. So I really would like Moonlight Serenade played by Herb Miller because he dedicated it to his brother Glen. So Herb's got a band? Very much so, a beautiful band, a pure English band. English? Absolutely, yes. And he's continued, I say, this fantastic sound and he's playing to packed audiences all over the world. And it's absolutely wonderful to think all those years afterward. But Glenn Miller was a genius.

Presenter27:56

Moonlight Serenade by the Herb Miller Orchestra.

Presenter28:01

As a countryman, you should

Presenter28:02

Provide pretty good desert island material, I think, Gordon. I mean, you should be able to rig up a hut.

Gordon Beningfield28:08

Yes, I think I'll be able to make a cover for myself reasonably well. Yes, I think that's something I could do. You're quite right. Could you live off the land? Yes, I think I could manage that. I certainly could do a bit of fishing. And I hope, Roy, there'll be some fruit about on this island. There should be. It's just a

Presenter28:22

Uh

Presenter28:22

Questions of knowing what you can eat and what you can't eat.

Gordon Beningfield28:25

Yeah, be careful.

Presenter28:26

For some of the berries.

Gordon Beningfield28:27

Indeed, yes. I'd have to be careful of some of those. But you could cultivate? Yes. I'm not a great gardener, but I think I'd have to, yes. Can you cook? Not at all. Absolutely useless. Can't cook anything.

Presenter28:37

Now your father knew about boats, do you?

Gordon Beningfield28:39

Well, no, I'm quite different to my father. I follow in his footsteps with art, but uh I'm actually terrified of the sea. I'm I can't go on a boat, so no, I'm actually useless.

Presenter28:49

War ahead.

Gordon Beningfield28:49

Mm.

Presenter28:49

Mm.

Gordon Beningfield28:49

And

Presenter28:49

You could make yourself comfortable.

Gordon Beningfield28:51

I think I could.

Presenter28:52

But yes. Record number eight, your last one.

Gordon Beningfield28:54

Well, my last one is from the planets, Jupiter, and that lovely peace I vow to thee, my country.

Presenter29:59

Part of Jupiter from Holst's Planets, the Halley Orchestra conducted by James Lochran.

Presenter30:05

If it would take only one disk of the HU players, which would it be?

Gordon Beningfield30:10

I think it would have to be, I vow to thee, my country royal, because although this island I'm sure is absolutely beautiful, I've got to get back to England, and that's the the record that's going to get me there. Right, host.

Gordon Beningfield30:21

Yeah.

Presenter30:21

And one luxury to take with you, one object of no practical use that you'd like to have.

Gordon Beningfield30:27

I would like a very large sketch book, and could I have a few paints and a pencils?

Presenter30:31

Yeah.

Gordon Beningfield30:33

Because there's no way that I'm not going to get back, Roy, and as soon as I get back, I'm on an exhibition. So.

Gordon Beningfield30:40

So if I do a lot of painting and drawing while I was there, I perhaps might do that.

Presenter30:44

We give you the Bible and the complete works of William Shakspeare, one book.

Gordon Beningfield30:49

I would like

Gordon Beningfield30:50

you to find the largest manual on how to swim, because I can't. If I fall off the raft, which I'm sure I'll be able to make, I've got to learn to swim. So the biggest volume on how to swim.

Presenter31:03

The biggest waterproof volume on how to swim. Rebel. And thank you, Gordon Benningfield, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Gordon Beningfield31:06

Right.

Gordon Beningfield31:11

Very, very kind of it my pleasure.

Presenter31:14

Goodbye everyone.

Speaker 331:21

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio forward.