Catherine Cookson

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty four, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:29

Well this week I'm visiting a fascinating house in Northumbria.

Presenter0:34

From the windows one can see Hadrian's wall.

Presenter0:37

and there's a very picturesque stretch of the River Tyne, and there are forests and fells in the distance. It's the house of a novelist, author of over sixty romantic and historical novels, Catherine Cookson.

Catherine Cookson0:51

Mary Cole Roy

Presenter0:53

Please do, Catherine.

Catherine Cookson0:54

I just wanted nobody please miss

Catherine Cookson0:57

And I'm going to pull you r up straight away, Roy. I do not like that word romantic.

Presenter1:00

I do not

Catherine Cookson1:03

As I see a romance, anything goes. Everything's got to be larger than life. But in a novel you've got to be realistic, and I am very realistic.

Presenter1:13

Now we're taking you away and dumping you on an island. It's a beautiful island.

Presenter1:18

But uh you won't be very comfortable, not as comfortable as you are here. There will be some music. Is music important in your life?

Catherine Cookson1:25

It has a place, let us say that.

Presenter1:27

Can you make music? Do you play the piano?

Catherine Cookson1:29

Well, I play at it. You see, I had the chance of playing when uh our Kate, that was my mother, uh, bought a piano well, got it on the Never Never and uh, believe it or not, she paid a hundred pounds for this piano in Sunderland. At least she put her name down. Where she got the five pounds to put down, I just don't know.

Presenter1:48

And whoop.

Presenter1:51

And this was for your benefit.

Catherine Cookson1:52

This was for my benefit because she wanted me to be different, and I took lessons at a shilling a time, and after eighteen months

Catherine Cookson2:00

I passed an exam and the morning that I got uh the letter to say that I'd passed with a hundred with honours, a hundred and thirty one marks, the men came and took the piano away. And uh yes, oh yes and I sat in the lavatory and held my eyes out. But anyway, she got me a grammophone and there was two records and I remember one was um You Made Me Love You.

Catherine Cookson2:23

And the thing was, that was played until it was threadbare. But I didn't come to know music until I went to Hastings in 1930. And I was introduced to the White Rock Pavilion and to Basil Cameron's orchestra. He conducted then. They used to play five nights a week. But that was my first introduction to music. And I discovered there that I didn't like the highbrow stuff. I liked it, liked something with a tune in it, you know. I still do.

Presenter2:55

So where do we start? What's your first record?

Catherine Cookson2:57

Let us have Sally de Moore.

Presenter2:59

Elgar

Presenter3:59

Elgar's Salieu d'Amour, John Georgiadis with John Perry at the piano.

Presenter4:05

Catherine, this is your native country, isn't it? You come from Tyneside.

Catherine Cookson4:09

Yes, yes.

Presenter4:11

And you were Katie McMullen.

Catherine Cookson4:12

Muller, yeah.

Presenter4:13

In your childhood you knew poverty dent.

Catherine Cookson4:15

Very much so, yes.

Presenter4:17

And you never knew your father.

Catherine Cookson4:19

No, I didn't.

Presenter4:20

And in those days, of course, illegitimacy had a kind of stigma.

Catherine Cookson4:25

Oh yes, it certainly had, yes.

Presenter4:28

Your mother brought you up she went out to work.

Catherine Cookson4:30

Oh, very much so, yes. She worked both inside and outside the house.

Presenter4:34

Mm-hmm.

Catherine Cookson4:34

Fourteen hours a day.

Presenter4:36

as a result of which she had an unfortunate character fault.

Catherine Cookson4:40

Yes, Kate had one fault she liked a tipple.

Catherine Cookson4:43

And that upset me very much. I think that I must have been highly sensitive.

Catherine Cookson4:49

because other children could put up with their parents' drinking. But to me it was a a great shame that my I well, I didn't consider her my mother, you see. She was our Kate. For years I thought of her as my sister.

Speaker 14:59

Uh

Catherine Cookson5:02

And uh it it wasn't until I was seven years old and discovered that uh she was my mother.

Catherine Cookson5:07

But I still called her our Kate. That the shame sort of increased. I knew our Kate drank, but she was only a sister, it didn't matter. But when she was a mother and she drank, that became unbearable. And that feeling increased with the years. It didn't uh diminish. I didn't see it in a different light as I got into my teens.

Presenter5:27

Did you sometimes go to bed hungry?

Catherine Cookson5:29

No, no, I never did. There was always food, and nearly as often there was drink. The rent mightn't be paid, but uh those two necessities were seen to.

Presenter5:39

Were you were you bright at school?

Catherine Cookson5:41

No, I certainly wasn't. I certainly wasn't right because I was full of fear. I feared the drink. I and from I was seven and a half, I was taken away from the Protestant school, the only school at which I was happy. And I was made to go to the Catholic school because, as my granda said, I had a lawn of faith.

Catherine Cookson6:00

And it didn't take me away from there to just learn the faith. It was so I could go to church and pray for his soul. He used to give me a penny on a Sunday and say,

Catherine Cookson6:09

There's a penny for the plate.

Catherine Cookson6:11

Say, say, prayer may save me, soul.

Catherine Cookson6:13

And you know there's no justice.

Catherine Cookson6:15

And he used to finish up with saying, Prayer may die a happy death, and he did die a happy death.

Catherine Cookson6:21

And I remember uh Kate cried when he went, and she had looked after him for ten years, and she should have really she should have had a brass band out at his corner.

Speaker 16:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Catherine Cookson6:31

No, but she cried.

Speaker 16:31

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson6:33

He had his good points, Sandy Grey. I look back and there were terrible times, yes, but there were these bright moments that

Speaker 16:34

Yeah.

Presenter6:34

Yeah.

Speaker 16:35

Yeah.

Presenter6:35

Uh

Speaker 16:35

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson6:41

Shine above them now.

Presenter6:43

Well, let's have your second record. What shall that be, Catherine?

Catherine Cookson6:43

Uh

Catherine Cookson6:46

Well, it's about laughter, and I've always liked to laugh.

Catherine Cookson6:51

I I look back and it's only a sense of humour and laughter that's got me over the tough stretches of life. And this is a record of laughter by Joyce Grenville doing a duet with Norman Wisdom. To my mind, it's extremely funny.

Speaker 27:13

You know what this reminds me all the time? What? Overheads.

Speaker 27:19

Oh

Speaker 17:22

Uh

Speaker 17:25

Ruining the music, is it?

Speaker 27:31

You're gonna go fake in a minute

Speaker 17:33

Uh

Speaker 27:46

Oh yeah.

Speaker 27:52

Yeah.

Speaker 28:00

Yeah.

Speaker 18:00

Yeah.

Presenter8:05

Narcissus by Joyce Grenville and Norman Wisdom.

Presenter8:09

How old were you when you left school?

Catherine Cookson8:11

thirteen, uh because I fell in the schoolyard and something happened to my hip, and uh the next thing was I had to lie on boards for about three months. I remember the day I came out of the back bedroom.

Catherine Cookson8:24

And I went into the kitchen.

Catherine Cookson8:26

and I looked down the back yard.

Catherine Cookson8:28

and uh passing along the back lane was two girls. One was called Janie Robson and the other was Florrie Harden. And I remember clearly saying to myself, I'll never play with them again. And I knew in that moment I'd grown up. And it was in that moment too I recall this thing came into my chest here, this feeling of resentment and anguish and bitterness and ambition and a lot. And, you know, I had that feeling for years.

Catherine Cookson8:56

I haven't got it now because I've got there, you see. But I used to call in My Urge.

Speaker 18:57

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson9:02

And every time felt I must do something, this would start working up. I went anywhere. What could I do? I went into service for a year.

Presenter9:11

You had an early urge to write, didn't you?

Catherine Cookson9:13

Oh, from I was eleven. I was scribbling, you see. But, you know, I couldn't spell. I knew nothing about grammar. But I had a story to tell. I was a natural storyteller. If I could only get a captive audience. But it was very difficult to get in those days. Captive audience. Everybody was so busy you couldn't get a captive audience. But um as I said, I went into service for a year and I came out after a year because I didn't like service. I thought I was uh cut above it. And it was always a mix up if you know who's the mistress and who is the maid.

Presenter9:45

Ha ha ha ha.

Presenter9:47

So what did you do next?

Catherine Cookson9:48

I took a pen painting of all things, a shilling a time, and I run this business for two years.

Presenter9:54

while the painting portrait

Catherine Cookson9:55

Paint no, portraits, no transfers from Weldon's, and you stuck them.

Presenter9:55

Paint

Catherine Cookson10:02

the transfer on a piece of Italian satin, you know. And then you just paint it in the flowers and the basket, and when the paint was wet you sprinkled glystein on them. And a friend of mine sent me one of the cushions that I had sold to her mother years ago. All the paint's gone, but there is the pattern still on, and the colours of the paints still on. But anyway, that went on for two years.

Presenter10:24

And then

Catherine Cookson10:25

Well, I had to give that up because I found that I had lead poisoning of all kinds.

Presenter10:30

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson10:30

And that has troubled me ever since.

Presenter10:32

That was from the paint?

Catherine Cookson10:33

Because, you see, my eyes were always uh bad, but nobody ever thought about getting you glasses. I mean, fancy having to buy glasses when they could, you know, get the grey handful. Oh, no. The thing was that I uh used to peer within about three or four inches from the paint and of course inhaling the white lead all the time.

Catherine Cookson10:54

And so I had to give it up, and by fortune I got into the workhouse as a laundry checker, through the good services of the priest, Father Bradley.

Presenter11:06

Was that hard work?

Catherine Cookson11:07

No, because I was in the office, you see. I never wet my hand. It was doing the books, you see.

Presenter11:11

Yes.

Catherine Cookson11:11

And then after two years I became assistant to manager S.

Catherine Cookson11:15

And after four and a half years when the boss left, I stopped the matron four times and practically demanded that she make me the manageris, and I was too young, she said. And uh the fourth time she lost her temper with me and said she would throw me out the gates if I stopped her again.

Presenter11:30

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson11:31

But you see, even then there was a determination to get on.

Presenter11:35

You mentioned earlier on that you moved to Hastings. Now this was something to do with with the workhouse.

Catherine Cookson11:40

Yes, well uh after she would make me manager, there was lots of things happened. I had a a sort of an unfortunate love affair. In fact, uh I had many love affairs. You see, I was known in those days as fast, you know. Yes, I was fast because uh during my teenage years I'd been out with three pit lads and an insurance agent, so I was

Presenter12:03

But n never all at once.

Catherine Cookson12:05

No, never no. That was the that was the thing, you see. In those days you uh met a lad, you went with him for a year and then you got engaged and three years after, you know, you got your bottom draw and you got married, but not me.

Presenter12:06

That's what I'm saying.

Catherine Cookson12:16

You know I'm not

Presenter12:19

Well there we are, we've got you to Hastings, let's have your third record.

Catherine Cookson12:23

Well, it's Tovel Indeen. It was there last night and they were dancing an encore, the third encore I think it was, to I Won't Send Roses. And to me it was simply

Catherine Cookson12:36

Magic. There'd been magic before, but I d I didn't think anything could surpass the the Bolero. But this was simply pure joy.

Speaker 212:45

I won't send roses.

Speaker 212:49

Or hold the door.

Speaker 212:53

I won't remember.

Speaker 212:56

Which dress you wore?

Speaker 213:00

My heart is too much in control.

Speaker 213:04

The lack of romance in my soul.

Speaker 213:08

We'll turn you grey, kid.

Speaker 213:12

So stay away.

Presenter13:15

Robert Preston singing I Won't Send Roses from Mac and Mabel.

Presenter13:20

So you were at Hastings and it was then that you got out of the workhouse system. You you bought a house.

Catherine Cookson13:28

I was still in the workhouse as a laundry manageress now, and I was earning three pounds six a week, which was a tremendous amount of money in those days.

Catherine Cookson13:36

And I would put a third away. I was mean to myself, you know, even with food, because I I wanted to save.

Catherine Cookson13:44

So by the time that I uh took the Hearst, that was what, in nineteen thirty-three.

Presenter13:51

The Hurst was the house that you walked.

Catherine Cookson13:53

Yes, it was a gentleman's residence, advertised as a gentleman's residence. Of course it had to be, you see, because I was uh the daughter of a gentleman, you know, is isn't it awful thinking that. But but the thing was my mother wouldn't discuss this with me, never. The only person that gave me any inclined to my father, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but it was my aunt Mary, and something happened in our kitchen that disturbed me, and I went up the street to where my aunt Mary lived and I said to her,

Speaker 214:03

Thinking that

Catherine Cookson14:21

Aunt Mary, whatever had happened had happened, and I said, I didn't like it, you know. And she says, Well, you wouldn't, luss, because you see your dad was a gentleman. And I said

Catherine Cookson14:31

How do you know me dad was a gentleman? She says, Oh, well, last she said he wore an astrakhan collar and she said he carried a silver mounted walking stick and black kid gloves and he spoke lovely. So that set up the false idea in my mind that I was the offspring of a gentleman, you see, and that stayed with me and I worked on it. Perhaps as jo joy a good job as I did.

Presenter14:52

So you wanted a big hug?

Catherine Cookson14:53

So I wanted a big house and so I took the Hearst. But unfortunately for me, but it it's in the pattern of life, in the pattern of my life.

Catherine Cookson15:02

I brought my mother to give her a better life, I brought her from Tyneside to Hastings because she promised me when I first of all

Catherine Cookson15:11

Let her come on a holiday. She promised me that she'd given up the drink. She had never touched a drop for a year.

Catherine Cookson15:17

And the day that she landed in Hastings I went to the station to meet her, and there she was sitting outside.

Catherine Cookson15:24

Honor cases.

Catherine Cookson15:25

to use the North Country word paralatic, and I knew that I'd made the greatest mistake of my life.

Presenter15:32

But you looked after her.

Catherine Cookson15:33

I y well, no, she led me a dreadful life and we we parted and then she came north again.

Catherine Cookson15:39

But towards the end, when she was dying and only had a fortnight to live, I brought her back. I Tom said to me,

Presenter15:47

Tom is your husband. You met him in Hastings?

Catherine Cookson15:47

Tom is your husband.

Catherine Cookson15:49

I met him in Hastings. He in fact, the thing was my mother had the ideas about, you know, getting a big house. She wasn't going to be pushed out of mine and going to a smaller one. And she started this guest house, and of course one of our guests was this young grammar school master, Tom. And you know, it was very odd, but the moment we saw each other, it was like that. We both fell in love, and and and and we had we had a very rough time of it for three years.

Presenter16:15

As a result of which you had a very bad nervous breakup.

Catherine Cookson16:17

Yes, I had a very bad nervous pig. But I look at it this way: life is a pattern.

Catherine Cookson16:22

And I realize now I had to go to Hastings, I had to bring that woman to live with me again, even knowing what I had gone through for twenty three years with her.

Catherine Cookson16:32

Oh, from I was five years old when I realized that she drive

Speaker 116:34

Lies.

Catherine Cookson16:37

That was a pattern.

Catherine Cookson16:39

It was the pattern in which Tom and I had to come together, you know?

Presenter16:42

You know?

Catherine Cookson16:43

We were utter opposites, but we knew that inside we were meant for each other.

Presenter16:49

And it was that pattern that started you writing.

Catherine Cookson16:51

No, it wasn't that pattern that started me writing. I was born to write. As I said, I started when I was eleven, and then I sent my first story away when I was sixteen.

Presenter16:57

Mm.

Catherine Cookson17:01

To the Shields Daily Gazette. I said it on a Wednesday, they got it on a Thursday, and I got it back on a Friday. You see, that bubbled my eyes out, and I remember my granddaughter said, Never you mind, Henny, that now put a lot of doughsy.

Catherine Cookson17:12

budgery guys, you know.

Catherine Cookson17:14

And so on. Then I wrote uh did uh what I thought. I always wanted to write funny things. It's very strange, you know, the life I've led. My main object was to make people happy.

Catherine Cookson17:26

And this has been the pattern all the way through.

Catherine Cookson17:29

I kept on writing.

Catherine Cookson17:31

But it was all Lord Chesterfield, because, you see, I I came under the influence of Chesterfield and his letters, and I started to write about ladies and gentlemen, and I knew what did I know about ladies and gentlemen, really, damn all. And the thing is that it wasn't until I had the breakdown

Catherine Cookson17:49

That I realized of I

Catherine Cookson17:51

wanted to write a word that anybody was going to read, I had to come down to earth and I had to write about things that I knew, I had to expose myself as I was now and the result of my upbringing. And I thought that the first six books that I wrote

Catherine Cookson18:09

Was sort of getting this out of my system, but it wasn't. I still had this aggressive feeling of bitterness. That was the main feeling in the breakdown. And it remained with me. For ten years, I was like this. You could say that I was in the breakdown for ten years. And then I knew I couldn't do anything until she died, until my mother died. And she died in 1956. And then I started to write my autobiography. And it took me 12 years to write it.

Speaker 118:36

And it took

Catherine Cookson18:38

And I rewrote it eight times, deleting a b some of the bitterness with each attempt, you see.

Catherine Cookson18:45

One funny thing about this, the day it came out, a friend of mine phoned up. Two, there were there were the two sisters, and um they phoned up and I said, Oh, Kitty, we've read your autobiography, but my dear, I think you've made a mistake. And I said, I was expecting the autumn, Oh, see, isn't it wonderful? you see But no, they said, Why did you do it? Because, you know, you've spoilt your image, dear, because everybody before could take you for a lady.

Catherine Cookson19:19

Now they know, don't they?

Presenter19:22

It's time we had another record. Number four, what's that?

Catherine Cookson19:24

Number four.

Catherine Cookson19:26

or the fruit concerto by Hofmaster.

Presenter19:27

And why do you choose that?

Catherine Cookson19:29

Well, I've never known um good health and um

Catherine Cookson19:33

One morning I woke up not very long ago, and I wish I hadn't woken up because, you see, I have a blood trouble and I'd had a lot of emergency trips and I was very despondent, in fact at the bottom of the barrel. And I switched on the wireless and

Catherine Cookson19:49

There came on to my ears notes like oh drops of crystal water, this woman playing a flute.

Catherine Cookson19:59

Anyway, by the time that record had finished, I was on the top of the barrel.

Presenter21:04

Hofmeister's flute concerto in D and the soloist

Presenter21:08

Ingrid Dingfelder.

Presenter21:10

Well, we've been talking an awful lot, or rather, you've been talking an awful lot, Catherine. I generally interesting stuff. Let's go straight into the next record. What's that going to be?

Catherine Cookson21:14

I generally do interesting stuff.

Catherine Cookson21:19

Well, the Chopin ballad.

Presenter21:21

Why?

Catherine Cookson21:22

Because I like Chopin and uh I find him very soothing. After uh a day's uh hard work and don't let us forget uh, you know, even after my sixty first book being out, writing is still hard work.

Presenter22:39

Chopin's Ballad No. One in G minor, played by Ash Genazzi. Was your first novel a success?

Catherine Cookson22:46

Oh yes, yes and it was the very first novel that I'd ever written. I'd written short stories and poetry and plays. I used to write a lot of plays. But in I think it was in nineteen forty seven I started on um Kate Hannigan.

Catherine Cookson23:01

And I think I finished it in forty eight.

Catherine Cookson23:04

And I sent it to an agent of Christian Moore.

Speaker 123:07

More

Catherine Cookson23:08

I sent the first three chapters, and he sent them back and said, Get this finished as soon as possible. And I got it finished as soon as possible, all in long hand. And he sent it off to MacDonalds, and it was sent up to Maury Thompson, and he was the editor. And he read the first three pages, and he said, Send us back. It's too

Catherine Cookson23:27

And the secretary

Catherine Cookson23:29

looked at it, took it home, spent half the night reading it, came back in the morning and said, You've missed something here So it wasn't Morrit Thompson that uh he gets the name as you know, being the one who started me it was the secretary whom I've got to thank.

Catherine Cookson23:44

And I have thanked her many times, poor girl, she's died now.

Presenter23:47

And that was the first of sixty-one. Sixty-one. Are they all set in the northeast?

Catherine Cookson23:53

Except the one that I did on the Broads when we had a boat there for ten years and I did the Fen Tiger on there. I l I learned a lot about the Fenland and I did the Fen Tiger on there. And that's the only one. And the second part

Catherine Cookson24:06

of the second Tilly. It's a Tilly trilogy, you see. And uh Tilly Trotter married and the second part I take her to America, to Texas. And I had to do a lot of research because I've never been to America and Texas in eighteen and forty to eighteen and sixty.

Presenter24:22

Yes, well they're all set in the 19th century and you'll never be in there either.

Catherine Cookson24:25

No, no, no, I've never. They're not all. That's a mistake. They're not all set in the nineteenth century. I've done sixty one books. I've got four the publishers waiting for coming out. I've got four upstairs that I'm working on. And there's about eight in the cupboard that I didn't find up to my standard, because I have a standard. And there's only seventeen out of all that lot that I set in the last century, and that class me as a h you know, the last century's historical novelist.

Presenter24:29

But no dude

Presenter24:53

Yes.

Catherine Cookson24:53

I get hysterical when I think.

Presenter24:55

Well, I'm sorry, I haven't read the Home 61 there.

Catherine Cookson24:56

Sorry, I haven't read the Home Sixty one yet. You start as soon as possible.

Catherine Cookson25:04

Who

Presenter25:04

How do you work? Do you work regular hours? Do you start

Catherine Cookson25:06

No, I don't. It all depends upon my health. I do a lot of my work from bed because of this blood trouble. I can be laid low for time, but I've got to be very, very low when I can't talk, as you've learned. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Catherine Cookson25:23

I dictate. Yes, I wrote by long hand for the first sixteen books, and then I got uh Writer's Cramp and Frozen Shoulders. And it was Tom who said, um

Presenter25:24

Yeah.

Speaker 125:31

Uh

Catherine Cookson25:34

Get a tape recorder. You're a natural jabber, he said. You can and I so I took to it like a duck to water, you said.

Presenter25:40

Good. Record number six. What's that to be?

Catherine Cookson25:43

I I'm uh not religious. I don't belong to any denomination. I say I'm not religious. Priests and parsons tell me I'm more religious than ever I've been. I'm spiritual. I have my own ideas of uh w what makes the world tick.

Speaker 125:53

Uh

Catherine Cookson25:57

Because I was brought up, you see, from a seven and a half in the Catholic Church, and I became.

Catherine Cookson26:04

Enamoured of the Latin and on a Sunday night singing the Osalia Tales in the Tantamargo and listening to the math in Latin. That kind of

Catherine Cookson26:15

Language seemed to open the door to prayer for me, which the ordinary language doesn't.

Presenter26:20

So what have you chosen?

Catherine Cookson26:21

I've chosen Arve Miria by Marian Anderson. It isn't in Latin, it's in German. But nevertheless, it's a beautiful piece in praise of the Virgin and uh it affects me.

Presenter27:32

Schubert's setting of Ave Maria, sung by Marian Anderson.

Presenter27:37

Catherine, you've also written some children's books, haven't you?

Catherine Cookson27:39

Yes, yes.

Catherine Cookson27:41

I did eight voyages between, say, eleven and fifty or sixteen.

Catherine Cookson27:47

mostly about boys. And then I was asked to do one for a five-year-old of old k things.

Presenter27:53

You have this large output, over sixty books. You must be one of the very few writers who can proudly claim that every single one of your books is in print.

Catherine Cookson28:03

Yes, that's what they tell me. And at the last count a rough count worldwide, I think there's eighty million sold.

Catherine Cookson28:10

And Cogina in English paperback, they've reached about thirty million.

Presenter28:15

We're getting to astronomical figures, aren't we?

Catherine Cookson28:17

Yes, we are, aren't we? And and and you know, I can't believe it, it hasn't happened to me. Because I'm still beneath this skin and beneath this facade, I'm still Katie MacMullen from East Jarrow.

Presenter28:17

We are not.

Catherine Cookson28:28

You know, and I must in my own defence say, it hasn't made all that difference, and I've determined to remain myself, you know.

Catherine Cookson28:37

Uh my feet are still on the ground and I still wear the same size hats.

Catherine Cookson28:42

Because um I've seen how this can affect other people and I swore it wasn't going to affect me. Never forget where you come from, lass. They all just say this is what I say to you.

Presenter28:51

Got this

Speaker 128:52

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson28:53

And uh and some say to me, Well, there's a credit to you, you haven't turned your back on your ain.

Presenter29:00

Record number seven.

Catherine Cookson29:02

Well, it's Thora.

Catherine Cookson29:04

This is very a very poignant memory with me. It happened one afternoon in winter and Kate and I were sitting each side of a mat. We used to do a clippy mat once a year. It would take a year practically to do this mat.

Catherine Cookson29:17

put down for Christmas, and she placed me with my back to the fire because I was always cold, being anemic.

Catherine Cookson29:24

and I remember she was solid and sober this day.

Catherine Cookson29:30

and suddenly she began to sing.

Catherine Cookson29:32

When she was tight she would sing and try to reach, you know, high notes that she couldn't.

Catherine Cookson29:38

But she sang lovely this day, and she sang Thora, I stand in a land of roses.

Catherine Cookson29:44

While I dream of a land of snow Where you and I were happy.

Catherine Cookson29:48

And days of long ago.

Catherine Cookson29:50

And

Catherine Cookson29:51

As she sang I became so full that I started to cry. Child of my dreams, she sang, and I I wanted to be her child, child of her dreams.

Catherine Cookson30:02

And uh

Catherine Cookson30:04

I remember that she

Catherine Cookson30:06

Put her hand across the mat and she said, Oh, don't hurt it, don't cry.

Catherine Cookson30:12

She said, Come on, I'll make a cup of tea, eh?

Catherine Cookson30:15

We'll have a sub tea before the coming.

Catherine Cookson30:18

And a bit of stotty cake, eh?

Catherine Cookson30:21

And I've said yes.

Catherine Cookson30:24

Yes, we'll have a sub tea.

Catherine Cookson30:26

And that the

Catherine Cookson30:27

It sticks in my mind. It it becomes alive again, and I can hear her again.

Catherine Cookson30:33

Singing Thora every time I hear this record.

Speaker 130:46

I stand in a land of roses.

Presenter30:49

No, we're

Presenter30:50

Uh

Speaker 130:51

But I dream of a land of snow.

Speaker 130:56

Uh

Speaker 230:56

Where you

Speaker 130:57

You and all

Speaker 230:58

I was a in the years of

Speaker 131:03

From gong are all

Speaker 131:06

Nightingales in the branches, Stars in the magic skies, What I owe

Speaker 231:17

Uh

Speaker 131:18

Yeah, what's Uh

Presenter31:20

By all

Speaker 231:22

Only see what I was

Speaker 231:27

Only hear you singing.

Speaker 231:33

Please see you wrong.

Presenter31:37

Thora, sung by Robert White. Now we've put you on this island, Catherine.

Presenter31:43

We'll make things a little easier for you, but how would you manage on a desert island? Could you put up with the loneliness?

Catherine Cookson31:49

Oh, no, no. I'm a a loner inside, and I know a loneliness inside, but I couldn't put up with a loneliness, I'm sure I couldn't.

Presenter31:57

Could you look after yourself in a physical sense? We'll give you some fishing lines and make things a bit easier.

Catherine Cookson32:00

No, I couldn't fish. I I I think it's cruel. I couldn't bait a fish and I couldn't and I would starve to death. I tell you what I could do. I could make a hut, because I'm used to sawing. I could make oh yes, I used to saw for recreation at least an hour a day.

Presenter32:04

And I couldn't

Presenter32:10

I can make

Presenter32:14

Well then we'll give you a sword.

Catherine Cookson32:15

Yes, give me a soul.

Catherine Cookson32:17

Ty good soul.

Presenter32:18

If we provided a rough

Presenter32:21

Could you sail it?

Catherine Cookson32:21

No, I would stay put. I would make up my mind to die there. I wouldn't mind if you visited me now at the cave.

Presenter32:28

Yeah. We will bring boatloads of visitors.

Presenter32:32

And we'll get you off as soon as we can.

Catherine Cookson32:32

And we'll get you off as soon as we can.

Presenter32:35

Seven.

Presenter32:36

What's your last record?

Catherine Cookson32:38

Oh, now this is Don't Be Cross. It's a beautiful tune, but it's the title, Don't Be Cross, because I can never say to anyone, Don't be cross, I can't say I'm sorry. I find it very difficult to say I'm sorry. Now, Tom, he's so humble, he can say, Oh, I'm sorry, oh, my dear, I'm sorry And I couldn't knock his head off because he finds it so easy to say I'm sorry, and I and I can't. But I like to hear this simply because I can't say it.

Speaker 233:11

Mm-hmm.

Presenter33:36

Uh

Speaker 233:36

Er de minal marmiral doses in spatist love

Presenter33:49

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 233:50

Uh

Presenter33:50

Peace, peace, comely.

Speaker 233:55

Fine.

Speaker 233:57

Zionic

Presenter34:00

Yeah.

Speaker 234:00

It's full shake data.

Speaker 134:04

Yeah.

Speaker 234:04

Uh

Presenter34:05

Peter Anders singing Don't be Cross, Seinigschboe from Der Obersteiger. If you could take just one disc out of the H who played as Catherine, which would it be?

Catherine Cookson34:16

Oh, I think I can say without hesitation, Thora. It reminds me of Kate and the kitchen.

Presenter34:21

And one luxury to take with you, any one object that would give you pleasure, but is of no practical use.

Catherine Cookson34:26

Oh, the a piano, and I would be able to start where I left off that day the men took it away.

Presenter34:35

And one book apart from the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare.

Catherine Cookson34:40

Oh, now is a toss-up. One book I would like to take um

Catherine Cookson34:45

Chesterfield's letters, or anything Chesterfield wrote, or my own autobiography.

Presenter34:51

A snap decision which called

Catherine Cookson34:52

Oh, well, it'll have to be my autobiography because it would remind me of my past and how I'd come to be on that Blummin Island.

Presenter35:01

Island

Catherine Cookson35:01

Yeah.

Presenter35:01

Yeah.

Catherine Cookson35:02

Yeah.

Presenter35:02

And that autobiography is called Arcade.

Catherine Cookson35:02

And that

Catherine Cookson35:04

Okay.

Presenter35:05

Eight, yeah.

Catherine Cookson35:05

Awesome.

Presenter35:05

Well, that's it, and thank you, Catherine Cookson, for letting us hear your Desert Island Disc.

Catherine Cookson35:11

Well, thank you very much, Roy, and please do drop in on my island sometime, will you?

Presenter35:16

I'll do my best. Goodbye, everyone.

Catherine Cookson35:16

My best.

Catherine Cookson35:17

Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 135:26

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.