Sir Peter Hall

Sir Peter Hall0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Sir Peter Hall0:05

For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1983, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:30

Our castaway this week is probably the most productive theatrical impresario in the world, the head of our national theatre, Sir Peter Hall.

Presenter0:39

During the past thirty years, Peter, you've been involved to varying extents in four or five hundred productions. Would you welcome a spell away from it all on a desert island?

Presenter0:48

No.

Presenter0:50

Not at all. You want to keep bashing away. Well, I love it.

Presenter0:53

Tell us how it all started. You were born in East Anglia. Where exactly? I was born in Burrison Edmonds. What theatre did you see as a child? Well, my father was a railwayman, and he ended up as a country station master.

Presenter1:08

and we lived in the wilds of Suffolk.

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very near Cambridge.

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And the main reason I got n interested in the theatre, I suppose, was that his uh job allowed me to have cheap rail travel, sometimes free.

Presenter1:21

And I went to London a lot and I saw a lot of theatre in Cambridge from about the age of ten on which productions as a as a boy particularly interested you? Well, I remember Gielgood's Hamlet at the Arts Theatre in about nineteen forty two.

Sir Peter Hall1:25

Which

Sir Peter Hall1:29

Yeah.

Sir Peter Hall1:32

And about nine.

Presenter1:34

I remember seeing The Marriage of Figaro done by Sadda as Wells in 1940 when they were evacuated to Cambridge, and hearing Mozart's Requiem at King's College Chapel on my tenth birthday. A few things like that. Music as much part of it as drama. I was stage-struck at an early age. You played Hamlet yourself at school. I played Hamlet, yes. Who didn't?

Presenter1:55

I didn't.

Presenter1:57

Was acting more important than music? You learned the piano and and the organ, I believe. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Well, I think if I had my time again, I would like to have been a musician.

Sir Peter Hall2:06

But it

Presenter2:06

Yes. In a way, I love the discipline of music and I love the form of music and uh

Presenter2:12

I think if it hadn't been for the war years, where teaching was quite difficult, maybe I would have

Presenter2:20

spent more time on music, but one had to decide whether it was music or academic scholarships almost. When you left school you went into the Royal Air Force for your

Sir Peter Hall2:25

Uh

Presenter2:28

National service. Yes. Was there any theatre work there? What did you do? Yes, I I taught economics and business management. Economics? Yes. This was a demobilization centre at Buckerborg in the middle of Germany. And when I was posted there, I was supposed to be going to an aerodrome to teach current affairs.

Sir Peter Hall2:32

What do you do?

Presenter2:45

But the squadron leader who taught economics to the people being demobilised had just fallen under some kind of cloud and had left hurriedly. So the CO said to me, You did economics in higher certificate, and I said, Yes, but only as a subsidiary subject. Never mind, he said, you can teach it, you can refresh these fellows. Now, these fellows had BScs at the London School of Economics. I learnt, I think, then, one of the most invaluable gifts for a director, was how to keep the show on the road when you didn't know any of the answers. Right.

Presenter3:14

Well, we'll leave you in the REF for a moment and let's hear the first record you've chosen for this uncomfortable sojourn on a desert island. I'd like to hear Judy Garland. It's uh

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Concert in Carnegie Hall, singing The Man Who Got Away.

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Why?

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Because I think she's one of the

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Great users of English, her diction is superb, and every song she sings she acts.

Speaker 23:44

Looking for the man

Speaker 23:49

Let God

Speaker 23:53

Away

Presenter4:03

Judy Garland, The Man Who Got Away.

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From the REF to Saint Catharine's College, Cambridge, you read English, I believe. Yes. You became active in university theatricals. In fact, you rented a theatre and put on your own production.

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Well, when I went up to Cambridge I mean I I'd wanted to be a director since I was about fourteen. I didn't really know what a director was, except, as I say, I was stage struck and I knew that somebody made these things happen and I thought it would be wonderful to try and be that person. But when I went up to Cambridge I was the first person in my family to get to university on scholarships and everybody thought you know that my future was assured for a safe, safe career and I ought to be a schoolteacher. And so I tried to give up the drama, but just in case I couldn't, when I started the first year, I booked the ADC Theatre, which is the little university theatre, for the beginning of my third year.

Presenter4:55

Not having enough money to hire it, but thinking I would raise it just in case. It took two years. Yes, I took two years to try and not do it, but then in the third year I did do it, and I did borrow the money from two wonderful schoolmaster friends and patrons. I borrowed forty pounds from the two of them, and I did a production of Anui's Point of Departure, which was very successful, and then I started directing.

Speaker 24:59

Yeah.

Speaker 25:01

Yeah.

Presenter5:18

I still have the r remembrance of when I began doing that. I mean, I didn't know my job, but I did feel as if I was a duck on water. I never felt so happy in my life. And that first production at a Cambridge University Theatre transferred to London? Not that one, no. Didn't it? No. In that last year at Cambridge I did, I think,

Presenter5:36

Eight or nine productions, I mean rather more than you would do in repertory, which is why my degree got rather shaky. And towards the end of the year, I did a production of Pirandello's Henry the Fourth, which got noticed by the national press, and Alec Clunes, who was then running the Arts Theatre, transferred it to London for a short run, and that got me started two weeks after I left Cambridge.

Sir Peter Hall5:39

Yeah.

Presenter5:56

John Counsel gave me a job at Windsor, directing The Letter by Somerset Maugham.

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And uh I mean I've been lucky enough never to be anything but a director. From Windsor you did a few more rep productions and then became director of productions at the Arts. Well this was a terrific bit of luck.

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Alec Clunes left the arts theatre at about that time and he said to John Fernold, who was succeeding him, Keep this young fellow on. I got, I think, six, seven pounds a week and luncheon vouchers to read scripts and to assist and generally be a dog's body. And they let me do that and they also let me have time off and go and work in reps. I really had my cake and ate it. And about eighteen months after I started doing that, John Fernald was appointed the new principal of Rada and the owner of the arts, Campbell Williams.

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turned to this rather delighted young man of twenty four, and said

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I'd like you to run the theatre, so I I did.

Speaker 26:48

Uh

Presenter6:49

And quite soon three of your plays transferred from the arts to the West End.

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Where they were all running at once. You were rich. Well, I wasn't rich. Oh no, I wouldn't say that. But I was I was launched. You were the new Golden Boy. Yes. And you were invited to direct a play at Stratford. Yes. Whose idea was that?

Sir Peter Hall7:02

Yeah.

Presenter7:07

I think it was Tony Quayle and Glen Byamshaw, both of whom were

Presenter7:11

enormous friends and mentors of mine.

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And uh that was in nineteen fifty six when I was twenty five. And I started working at Stratford then. And in nineteen fifty eight

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Glenn Byronshore said to me, I'm going to pack this in. I've had enough. I've done my term.

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Would you like to succeed me? Which was a wonderful opportunity. Yes, indeed. So at uh twenty-seven I was offered the Shakespeare Festival and

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With the temerity of youth, I said, Well, yes, I'd love to do it, but I'll only do it if we can open a London theatre and if we can do modern plays as well as uh Shakespeare plays, and if we can have a permanent ensemble of

Presenter7:53

Directors and designers, and most importantly, actors, so that we make some kind of growth together.

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And that was how the Rose Shakespeare Company was founded.

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Oh, your second one. My second record is uh

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The slow movement from the Schubert Piano Trio in E flat. I love chamber music. I listen to an awful lot of it. I like chamber music in a room on records, almost more than orchestral music. And I like fumbling through this one on the piano while playing a record.

Presenter9:17

The slow movement of the Schubert piano trio in E-flat played by the Bozard trio.

Presenter9:24

Not only did you insist on having the London end of the what became the Royal Shakespeare Company, you instituted a company style in in speaking Shakespeare's verse. Tried to, yes. I think one of the problems of Shakespeare in the fifties

Presenter9:40

Was that there were so many different ways of approaching Shakespeare? An old.

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Classical tradition which went back to Edwardian theatre, Victorian, which was rather slow and ponderous and overemphatic. A very clip, dry, throwaway, an old coward kind of style, which belonged to the thirties. And there was a a scratch and stumble style which was very much derived from the method and the actor's idea that above all he must be himself rather than Shakespeare. And I, with a number of wonderful colleagues like John Barton, an old friend from Cambridge, tried to instil some principles into all this chaos, and I think we succeeded. I think

Presenter10:20

It's one of the things I'm proudest of because it's a tradition that still survives. And with a permanent company.

Speaker 210:22

Yeah.

Presenter10:25

You engaged them for three years, did you? We engaged them for three years, yes, at that time.

Speaker 210:27

Yeah.

Presenter10:30

Not possible now, because equity only like you to engage actors for a year now.

Presenter10:34

Well let's have your next record before we talk generally about the Royal Shakespeare Company. This is the end of uh the Fantasia Concutanti on a theme of Corelli by Michael Tippett. Michael Tippett is a great friend and somebody I admire very much. I've done one of his operas. I know him quite well. I think he's quintessentially English, like Elgar, like the English countryside. And I'd like to sit on my desert island and think about Green England when I looked at all those

Presenter10:59

Sandy Rocks, it also is the music I used in a film I made about ten years ago about Suffolk called Akinfield.

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Tippett's Fantasia Concertante on a theme of Corelli, played by the Academy of Saint Martin in the Fields, directed by Neville Mariner.

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The Royal Shakespeare Company wasn't the only permanent subsidised company in London, was it, at that time? Well, there was the old Vic.

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And then in sixty three there was the National Theatre, which surrounds Olivier.

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Founded at the Old Vic. Laurence Olivier was in charge of the National, but he'd been ill.

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Yes, this is much later.

Speaker 212:41

Well I

Presenter12:47

that I'd done enough. I felt a bit dry and I really felt I never wanted to run a theatre again. I just wanted to be a director.

Presenter12:53

And I was a freelance for about five years. I did uh a few films. I worked all over the world, in America, Germany and Austria. And I also had a a short period at the Royal Opera House doing opera.

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But then in seventy two.

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I was approached about possibly going to the National.

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My initial reaction was, um no, I don't want to run another theatre. You know, it's it's too wearing, it's too big a job.

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But um

Presenter13:22

I was prevailed upon and I I suppose it's it was one of those things that you just finally couldn't say no to. The challenge was too great, the possibility was too great.

Presenter13:31

The excitement was too seductive in a way. So I said yes and went in 73 to help Sir Lawrence move the company into the new South Bank, the new buildings. Well, it's an old story. All builders are always late, and these were particularly late. And you weren't received with open arms by everybody on the South Bank. Not at all.

Speaker 213:53

Mm.

Presenter13:56

I think what was interesting, you see, the National Theatre didn't open finally until 1976, when it was very late indeed, and it was really a.

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A landmark in the miserable seventies, I think at the time that the National opened.

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Nobody much wanted it then. I mean it had been planned in the sixties, which were rather optimistic and rather affluent, and by the time we got to seventy six

Presenter14:19

The profession was very worried about the coming of the National Theatre because they thought that it would somehow jeopardise the commercial theatre. The rest of the subsidised theatre was worried about it because they thought it would eat all the grant. The media were very suspicious about it because anything new in this country from the Albert Hall on has got knocked because it's very newsworthy and it's a kind of trial by fire. So you realize the kind of trouble you were letting yourself into? Yes, I didn't realise it was going to be as bad as it was. I mean the only thing that sustained me and all my colleagues is that from the very beginning that the National Theatre opened on the South Bank, the public flocked into the building and wanted it and they've continued to want it. So in spite of all the fights we've had to get money, to get accepted and all the rest, because I mean the main trouble was that the government, whichever colour politically,

Presenter15:06

having voted money to build the building, were terribly surprised some eight years later to be told that money was required to run it.

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Well, we can read about your troubles because your diaries which cover that period have just been published.

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Now this is a strange thing. You used to get up at six o'clock in the morning, before you need get up, in order to dictate your diary.

Sir Peter Hall15:29

Yeah.

Presenter15:34

It's a strange habit.

Sir Peter Hall15:34

It's a strip

Presenter15:35

Oh, it sounds disgusting, I guess.

Presenter15:38

When I went to the National, I made a resolve not to do what I'd done at Stratford, which was to keep no record of anything. I mean, I'm a compulsive throw away of notices, programmes, photographs. I've got nothing. I didn't really like the past in that sense. But no sooner had I left the Royal Shakespeare than people were coming up to me, usually American academics, and saying, I'm writing this book about the Royal Shakespeare Company. Can you tell me what happened in 1964? And I couldn't. So I thought, well, I've been given this task of trying to open the National Theatre. I'll keep notes each day just of what happened the day before.

Presenter16:11

Just facts as I saw them, and I will dictate it. So I did, and very quickly it became a kind of therapy. It it became

Presenter16:19

Like brushing my teeth. I couldn't start the day without doing it. So I did it each morning. But the point I'm making is I didn't intend it for publication. It was really just to concentrate the mind on on what was going on. It became a kind of confessional and it helped me enormously personally. And I ended up after eight years when I stopped. I don't do it any more. I haven't done it for three years.

Sir Peter Hall16:29

What's going on?

Presenter16:39

With about a million and a quarter words.

Presenter16:41

Which I'd never read because I didn't read any of the entries because I didn't want to have hindsight or be consistent. I just wanted to be what it was.

Sir Peter Hall16:43

I didn't

Presenter16:50

John Goodwin, who was a colleague of mine at at Stratford and at the National, still is.

Presenter16:55

heard about this and prevailed upon me to let him read them, and he said

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There's a good story here, a really entertaining and interesting story about the opening of the theatre, and really what it was like in the seventies to go through something like this. Can I try and turn it into a book? So I told him he could.

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and he reduced the million and a quarter words to about a hundred and eighty thousand.

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And I think made a good story out of it. So really, you've never read the whole thing. I've never read the whole thing. No, I haven't. Well, that's something for your retirement years.

Sir Peter Hall17:21

I've never read that thing.

Sir Peter Hall17:22

Well that's how

Presenter17:27

Another record, number four. Well now we come to one of my great loves, Mozart. I've been able to do all the Daponte operas that Mozart composed at Gleinborn.

Presenter17:38

And I go on doing them there, and I love Mozart very much. I mean, life without Mozart's a bit like thinking of life without Shakespeare.

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And I would like to hear the trio at the beginning of Acto Don Giovanni. There's another personal reason why I want to take it on my island.

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I'm married to a wonderful opera singer Maria Ewing, and alas, she so far has not yet recorded this.

Presenter18:01

But she is going to record it with Bernard Heitink next year, so I hope by the time you wreck me I can actually take her record. In the meantime, who's singing on this discussion? In the meantime, the best Don Giovanni so far that has ever been conducted by Giulini in the fifties with Elizabeth Schwartzkopf then Selvira.

Speaker 218:42

And

Speaker 219:12

Swear what I want!

Presenter19:21

The trio from Act Two of Mozart's Don Giovanni, Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Eberhard Wechter, and Giuseppe Tadei directed by Giolini.

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Now, the National Theatre.

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Very much late.

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And an extraordinary story of the problems you had to cope with internal warfare, bureaucratic obstruction, arguing actors, bloody minded Union officials. This isn't what the theatre is about.

Presenter19:49

No, but it's what our country was about in the seventies.

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I think one of the interesting things about the seventies is that looking back even from nineteen eighty three, one can see what a very confused and sad

Presenter20:01

A neurotic time they were in every respect. I don't think we really knew where we were going or what we were doing.

Presenter20:07

I don't say things are much better now, but I think there's a little more sanity in the air. And of course in the middle of it, you wanting to direct plays, not just administer. Well, if I hadn't directed plays, I I wouldn't have stayed and I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have uh had any satisfaction out of it at all, I don't think. I mean, I've tried only being a director, and I don't find it particularly satisfying. I love doing both things, being an executive and a director. But I if I had to choose, I would certainly be a director. I mean I couldn't be an executive without being a director. How long did it take you to get everything working reasonably well?

Presenter20:41

Well, I think it was the better part of five years. That was a good long haul, yes. Another record.

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One of the great great pianists, Oscar Peterson.

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I think he makes a piano sing.

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Oscar Peterson playing Flamingo

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We've established the fact that you're a a workaholic, Peter.

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Up before six. What time do you get to bed? I like to be asleep by twelve, at the latest. Half past eleven is better. And when you do get away from the South Bank for a bit, you don't put your feet up, you direct a film or direct an opera. You talked about the number of productions you've done at Glinebourne and at Cotton Garden. And you've recently done a complete new production of The Ring in Bayreuth this year. Yes, that was this last summer. That was very exciting and interesting, and it was a beginning of something. Like all ring productions for the last hundred years at Bayreuth, it began in a.

Presenter22:34

clouds of controversy, and some people loved it and some people hated it, but it seems to be part of the Wagner fever that that's the way it goes. The good thing about Bayreuth is that uh although it's impossible to do

Presenter22:47

four huge operas in a very short space of time. I mean I actually had thirteen days of rehearsal for Goethe Demeron, which is twice as long as uh Don Giovanni. But the point about Byrot is that you do go on for three or four years after, more or less with the same cast, hopefully getting it better and better. So I'll be going back next year for two or three weeks.

Sir Peter Hall22:53

Just now.

Presenter23:09

production. Well, I don't regard it as naturalistic. Should we say it's more naturalistic than Wagner has been lately, because he's been extremely abstract and and uh extremely in a sense

Sir Peter Hall23:18

And a

Presenter23:20

Unsensual, I think. I think the fashion of Wagner has been abstract, intellectual, and a bit harsh when you actually listen to that violently sensual music. Another record.

Presenter23:33

This is

Presenter23:34

Another opera is the duet from La Callisto by Cavalli.

Presenter23:39

between the goddess Diana and the shepherd Endymione. And uh it's rather like early Richard Strauss. Strauss loves two soprano voices, one of which is a a male. Well, in this case we've got an alto in James Bowman singing a love duet with uh

Presenter23:56

Janet Baker.

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This opera I did in the realization by Raymond Lepard.

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At Glenbourne in nineteen seventy it was the beginning of a very happy relationship I had with Glenbourne.

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and the continuation of a friendship with Raymond Lepard.

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which goes back to university days.

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And it was also the beginning of a very, very rich collaboration with Janet Baker, so I would like to have that on my desert island.

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A duet from Cavali's La Callisto,

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Janet Baker and James Bowman, directed by Raymond Lepard.

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How do you feel about your capability as a castaway? Could you look after yourself in

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Rather straightened circumstances. I think I could if I had to. I wouldn't like to.

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I've been spoilt all my life, from my mother onwards, who allowed me as a boy to have my nose in books or be practicing the piano, rather than making me help with the washing up. And that that's rather been my life. I've been able to work and work and work and work, and I I love my work. But if s survival depended on it, I would make out I'm

Sir Peter Hall25:48

It's rather been a

Presenter25:57

Not marvellous in my hands, but fair. Would you try to escape?

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Eyes

Presenter26:03

Very much doubt it.

Presenter26:05

I think I'd want to. I think I'd spend an awful lot of time plotting and planning. But I don't know unless there was a reasonable chance of doing it, I don't think I would take the risk.

Presenter26:13

Next record.

Presenter26:15

The next record is uh a duet, at this time spoken, from Act Two of No Man's Land, uh Harold Pinter's play, with Sir Ralph Richardson, who sadly has just left us. Indeed. Great friend and great, great actor, and Sir John Gielgud. This was a play that I did the premiere of in the the early years of the National Theatre. It was a great success. The collaboration with them was something I will never forget.

Presenter26:41

And uh it's a rich dialogue. What's the situation? What's happening here? Well, the situation basically is a rich Hampstead author, uh a drunkard.

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who is no longer productive, being taken to pieces by an intruder who is a kind of

Presenter26:56

failed Orden figure with a lock of hair and dreadful sandals, who sneers and jeers, and is kind of the underbelly of the litterati that's played by Sir John. And finally they get to a point of actually challenging each other with memories of knowing each other at Oxford and who they knew and what happened. Now they both were

Presenter27:18

At Oxford.

Presenter27:19

at approximately the same time, and they probably did know each other, but they're trying to discomfort each other by

Presenter27:25

assuming memories which neither is quite sure that the other one has.

Speaker 327:30

Do you ever see Stella?

Speaker 327:32

Stella?

Speaker 327:34

You can't have forgotten.

Speaker 327:35

Sellah Who

Speaker 327:36

Stella Wynne Stanley.

Speaker 327:39

Wynne Stanley.

Speaker 327:40

Bunty Winstanley's sister.

Speaker 327:45

No, I never see her.

Speaker 327:47

You were rather taken with her.

Speaker 327:49

Pozzill, chap?

Speaker 327:51

How did you know? I was very fond of Bunty. He was most dreadfully annoyed with you and wanted to punch you on the nose. What for? For seducing his sister. What business was that of his? He was her brother.

Speaker 328:03

That's my point.

Presenter28:04

An excerpt from Pinter's No Man's Land, played by Sir John Guilgood and Sir Rafe Richardson.

Presenter28:12

Peter, you're signing up for another five years at the National Management. I've done that, yes.

Sir Peter Hall28:15

And yes I

Presenter28:16

Now what's in the book? You have a new musical?

Presenter28:20

Yes, this is a a musical by Marvin Hamlish, who wrote Chorus Line, and they're playing our song. He wrote the music for this, about uh Jean Seeberg, the film star who was discovered as St. Joan. It's written by Julian Barry, who wrote Lenny.

Presenter28:38

The book and the lyrics are by Christopher Adler. And what's interesting about it is that it's a tragic musical. It's about power, it's about politics, and it's about our curious habit now in the West to make stars rather than allow the talent to make stars. The media can make stars that are not necessarily talented. Uh don't think this just applies to actors, I think it applies to politicians as well.

Presenter29:01

We've got your last record. What's that? Last record is the uh slow movement from Mozart's Wind Serenade for thirteen wind instruments.

Presenter29:10

It's Mozart again. I think it's one of his earliest masterpieces.

Presenter29:15

And uh I can't have too much Mozart on my desert island, and it will also remind me of

Presenter29:20

A wonderful collaboration with Peter Schaffer on his play Amadeus,'cause this music is there. In fact, I brought it into the play, I think. I've lived with this record since Otto Klemperer recorded it in the mid sixties.

Presenter30:27

Otto Klemperer directing the slow movement on Mozart's Wind Serenade in E flat for thirteen instruments. If you could take only one disc out of the H you've played us, which would it be? I find it difficult. I'm almost tempted to say I won't take any, if I can only have one. But I think I would take the Judy Garland.

Presenter30:44

the man who got away, for two reasons.

Presenter30:46

I think I'd get great comfort out of her energy and anguish.

Presenter30:50

and the title, The Man Who Got Away, might even help me decide to escape.

Presenter30:55

And one luxury. I'd take a photograph of my five children.

Presenter30:59

Right.

Presenter31:01

And one book you already have the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible.

Presenter31:06

Well, if I've got the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible, I'm going to have a very good time, because uh that's the repository, those two books have all the

Presenter31:14

greatest English in the language, so I don't need to worry about that.

Presenter31:18

I think I would take the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, which uh perhaps you won't allow, because I think it's a good long read. How many of you have ten.

Sir Peter Hall31:26

It has a long audio.

Presenter31:29

And it would allow me to browse in music. So I with Shakespeare and the Bible and Grove, I'd be away. Indeed you would. And thank you, Sir Peter Hall, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much. Goodbye, everyone.

Sir Peter Hall32:07

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.