Topol

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 20:05

For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1983, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:29

On our desert island this week is the actor and singer Toppol.

Presenter0:34

Topol, how much of a musician are you? Can you play an instrument? Can you read music?

Topol0:38

Do

Presenter0:39

No.

Presenter0:40

And I have to point out that

Presenter0:42

I actually was deprived of music until uh

Presenter0:49

the age of twelve, let's say. I mean, we didn't have a radio in our house, so music was for me um noise, uh although an organized noise, but still noise. And uh it's really thanks to my uh dear friend and wife, Galia, she somehow educated me in that field.

Presenter1:12

Do you play records a lot at home? Yes. Was it a long job to choose just eight out of your collection?

Presenter1:18

Yes.

Presenter1:19

Yes, it was a lot. Are you choosing nostalgically or is it music to last a long time?

Presenter1:26

No. The way I chose is I obviously wanted uh to have with me some Israeli songs and I think that I chose the best voice that we ever produced and it's Esther O'Farim.

Presenter1:43

If you wish. So what's she going to sing? It's called in Hebrew uh Hayule Lot, and in English it's called Those Where Nights, but the song is in Hebrew, of course.

Speaker 31:56

By you, may go.

Speaker 21:57

Hey

Speaker 22:07

Yeah.

Speaker 32:07

Uh

Speaker 32:08

Bani Sholy.

Speaker 32:12

Bindganiya Lehmin Evend, Ameda Gila Maya Hamis.

Presenter2:22

Esther O'Farin, those were knights. Where were you born, Toppo? Born in Tel Aviv, or rather in Jaffa in in Israel. Whereabouts in Europe do your parents come from?

Presenter2:33

Uh they both came uh from Poland, though my father was born in Russia, but he came via Poland. Are you one of a big family? Do you have a lot of brothers and sisters? Just two sisters. And I believe your father did some work smuggling people into Israel.

Presenter2:49

Well, part of his job in Down Underground was uh getting in

Presenter2:54

what you called the British illegal immigrants, and we thought they were very legal.

Presenter2:59

You were an enterprising boy. For your Bar Metzfe that's what, when you were thirteen, is it? Yeah. You put on a review to entertain the guests. That's right. Yes, uh it was the first show I ever produced.

Presenter3:12

And I actually adopted a review that was playing at the time.

Presenter3:18

And uh we adapted it to our uh

Presenter3:21

well, childish thoughts of what uh we thought was going on at the time. Were you fascinated by the theater at that age?

Presenter3:29

Yes, but not as a profession. I mean, I never thought that I'll become a an actor. I mean, I I was an organizer rather than an actor, but because I couldn't find uh a better actor, I played a lead.

Presenter3:42

Well, you'll put at school? Very good.

Presenter3:45

London son.

Presenter3:46

As if I'm boasting that I finished my first eight years at school in seven years and then the next four in three. What did you want to be?

Presenter3:56

I wanted very much to be a printer, which I was, for three and a half years. What was your job in printing? I was actually printing, not typesetting, but actually printing and uh especially color printing, which I loved. Then obviously I wanted to uh build or to create

Presenter4:17

printing house in Mikey Boots, which I was a member of.

Presenter4:22

Now the firm were publishers as well. Had you any ambition to write?

Presenter4:26

Yes, and I did write in the uh youth movement journals, uh socialistic youth journal, and uh even poems which were terrible. You you did eventually write a book two or three years ago, Toppol by Toppol, and it was illustrated by your own very accomplished sketches. When did you learn to draw?

Topol4:45

Thank you.

Presenter4:46

When I worked at the printing house I uh took courses in commercial art, and this is uh where I actually studied drawing and painting. But then I really developed it with the years when I uh

Presenter4:59

Used

Presenter5:01

my ability to do it

Presenter5:03

in order to uh search for the character that I wanted to play. I mean if it was uh a Brecht character at first or or a UNESCO character first I had to see it really and th therefore I uh drew the character in order to see it in front of my eyes. Then I used the drawing or sculpturing actually in order to find the makeup that I wanted. And this is how I started with the colour, with the oil paintings. Which is a favorite occupation now. Oh I I I do it quite a lot, yes. What's your second record?

Presenter5:41

My second record is probably the first foreign artist I uh

Presenter5:48

ever met and it was uh Denny Kaye.

Presenter5:52

who in nineteen fifty six

Presenter5:55

appeared in Israel and I had the privilege to introduce him and to appear with him on stage while I was in the army theater.

Presenter6:05

And uh I'd love to hear Tchaikovsky that he does so well.

Topol6:10

Des Malachevsky, Ruben Sanarensky, and Chikovsky, Sabenyakov, Dmitryev Cherevden, Kryzhinovsky, Kodovsky Atubuch, Moniusko Wakimenko, Solovyev Prokofievti, Yamkin Goroshenko, Des Linklawinka, Bortniansky, Revt, Kovilinsky, Desmetr Balakirov Zolodorov and Kostynsky, and Sovkolov and Kopolov, Dukalsky and Kanovsky, Ashostakovich, Borodinglier and Novakovsky, Des Liudov and Kardonov, Markaevich, Panchenko, and Arvomsky, Chervachevsky Rabin Vasilenko, Stravinsky, Remsky, Kosatov, Musorzny, Angrachaninov, and Glazunov, and Sezak Wikalinika Ravanov, Stravinsky Angrachaninov.

Presenter6:40

Danny Kay singing Tchaikovsky.

Presenter6:43

Now, toppled three and a half years at the printers. You then went, you said, to a kibbutz. This was idealism, wasn't it?

Presenter6:51

Yes, I suppose so. I mean idealism, uh uh which we thought then that it wasn't just idealism, it was uh practicality. Uh we thought that this is the best way to uh create a wonderful future. Now a whole lot of you later moved from the kibbutz into the army en bloc. Now did you want to do that or were you conscripted? Well, I mean it's a national service that every boy and girl in Israel have to do, but we wanted to do it. We saw it as part of our job and part of our sharing the responsibilities in the country. Now you volunteered as a paratrooper but they made you an actor. Yes, that was because uh

Presenter7:31

I had a very strong voice and uh when we were running or jumping or training uh we always used to sing and my voice was heard above uh the others and

Presenter7:45

And then of course I used to tell jokes, I mean the ordinary terrible army jokes, you know, about the sergeant major and and the officer and and so on. And somehow uh an officer uh saw me doing it one evening and wrote my name down and when I finished the uh

Presenter8:02

Commander's course after nine months of uh

Presenter8:06

hardship. I uh was called to headquarters and was told that my next job is uh joining the entertainment troop, which was a very big disappointment for me, but definitely

Topol8:15

Mm-hmm.

Presenter8:18

Established a new course to my life. And it became a very popular troop. How many of you? The regular troop is about, what, sixteen, seventeen boys and girls and two or three musicians. But then we developed around us satellites, I mean small groups around us of three or four that would go out and teach soldiers to sing and dance. And this is how our group became so popular, because wherever we came, soldiers knew already our songs.

Presenter8:49

And it was in the company that you met Gallia, your wife. That's right. And she used to teach me singing by wi I I really I mean I was such an ignorant and such a bad ear that was unbelievable. And she used to teach me by pointing with her hand a little up, a little down. This is how uh they taught me singing. But it worked. Well, I didn't improve my ear, but I developed a very good eye. Your wedding was a very big event. How many guests were there? They came from

Presenter9:20

all the kibbutzim around uh the country and uh there were about uh fifteen hundred or so.

Presenter9:26

And we were very young kibbutz, we couldn't afford it, but we suspected that it'll all come, so and the invitations we wrote.

Topol9:26

By the way

Presenter9:33

Please, we are Yankee Boots, we can't afford so many guests. If you want to eat and drink, bring it with you.

Presenter9:39

Now when you left the army, you formed a civilian troop. You helped form one? Well, no, I founded a theater, a satirical theater, which was called the Spring Onions or the Green Onion. We belonged still to the kibbutz. And

Presenter9:55

We kind of represented then the uh

Presenter9:58

How shall I say, the mood of the movement, of the kibbutz movement, and we were really the representatives of it and we wandered around the country. Unfortunately, we became very successful and then we ceased to be members of the kibbutz and we just became a theater. You uh acquired a very big personal reputation. As a result you made your first film.

Presenter10:20

That's right, I made a film called uh

Presenter10:23

I like Mike. Just to round up the story, the lady who plays with me now, Golden, Fiddler on the Roof, is married to Peter Frye, who was my director then. So we met after

Topol10:36

So we met after

Presenter10:37

To what is it, twenty-five years now. Let's have your third record.

Presenter10:42

Around that time when I was in the Green Onion, a wonderful, wonderful artist came to uh Israel. His name was Yves Montin, a French actor and singer.

Presenter10:54

And he introduced us to uh his repertoire, which we adored.

Presenter11:00

And there's one song that I particularly love, and it's called Barbara. It's a very sad song about Barbara from the town of Brest that was destroyed to the ground in Second World War.

Presenter11:14

And uh

Presenter11:16

My choice.

Presenter11:47

Yves Monton singing Barbara, the poem by Jacques Poiva, set to music by Joseph Cosmo. And of course you've recorded that song yourself. I recorded that song in Israeli in Hebrew.

Topol11:56

There are

Presenter11:59

Now you wanted to tackle something a little more serious. You were making comedy films and you were being a comedian with the green onion, but you decided to go to Haifa.

Presenter12:09

Yes. I went to uh Haifa in nineteen sixty'cause I wanted

Presenter12:14

to try and see if I'm

Presenter12:16

what we call here a legitimate actor, not just uh a comedian. I say not just a comedian in quotes, because I think that just a comedian is uh

Presenter12:28

as important, if not more difficult, than

Presenter12:31

just an actor, a straight actor. But I uh tried it and I started with uh an easy one, with the Shakespeare.

Presenter12:39

Oh, very. Yes. With Taming of the Shrew, though. And then went into Brett UNESCO, uh, Max Frisch and Brandon Beehem and

Presenter12:49

The rest of the giants trip abroad?

Topol12:51

And

Presenter12:55

That's right. And I went to uh Venice with the Caucasian Chalk Circle to the bienni.

Presenter13:01

Then I started my first film production.

Presenter13:04

And I produced a film called Salah, which seemed to work quite well. Where was that produced? In Israel. Mm-hmm.

Presenter13:13

Then I uh did a show with uh

Presenter13:16

My dear friend Danny Kaye in uh in Los Angeles.

Presenter13:21

And then I met

Presenter13:22

Another very good friend, Sammy Davis, Junior.

Presenter13:26

Which would bring us to our next record.

Presenter13:30

He is thinking it ain't necessarily so from Poggy and Bess.

Topol13:39

As a sari. So

Speaker 313:42

Uh

Speaker 313:44

Then that's a sad revolution so

Speaker 313:48

Man, they tell all you chillin', the devil's a villain, but it ain't necessary so.

Presenter13:59

SAMMI DAVIS, JUNIOR What was your first Hollywood film?

Presenter14:04

Was it Cast a Giant Shadow? Cast a Giant Shadow, yes. Directed by Mel Schavelsson. And there I had the privilege of working with the wonderful

Presenter14:14

Legends like John Wayne and Frank Sinatra and Kirk Douglas, of course, who played the lead, and Yul Brynner and others.

Presenter14:24

Now, while you were in New York, you saw Zero Mostel in a show called Fiddler on the Roof, a musical play. What did you think of it?

Presenter14:32

Well, when I saw it first, it was when

Presenter14:35

I got a telegram from Tel Aviv. I was offered to play the part in Tel Aviv and I never heard of the play before. So I went to see it at a Martine in Zero.

Presenter14:46

Who is

Presenter14:48

Definitely a genius, unfortunately, we should say now. God bless his soul.

Topol14:50

We should say no.

Presenter14:53

Edette Martine took liberties and played it to the old ladies in the audience referring to their husbands and cracking all kind of jokes that I didn't like, which had nothing to do with the play and I didn't think too much of the play, at least the way it was played there. So I answered back, no, no way, it won't work in Tel Aviv and it won't work anywhere. It's a bad New York play and only there it can work. You did change your mind about that, in fact. I did. It's not that I changed my mind. I mean the history changed my mind because it worked for I don't know for three years in Tel Aviv. It was a huge success. And obviously it was an optical mistake because when I went to see it a second time with Zero Mostel and he was playing it seriously, it was just a joy. I mean he was really a genius and I mean he was a genius.

Presenter15:49

In creating this part for all of us, I know that here in this country the part of Tevia in Fiddler is considered mine, but I'm not being modest, I mean what I'm saying. He's the one who created that part, and he's definitely considered the Tevia in New York. I mean, no one will take it away from him ever. You played it in Tel Aviv eventually to help somebody out. Yes, my teacher, Rodensky, who was playing it at the time, and he got a little bit sick, so I jumped into it in three days and took over for a while.

Topol16:24

For a while.

Presenter16:25

Oh, meanwhile, quite independently, somebody in America had seen you in the Israeli film, in which you'd played an old man.

Topol16:30

Sala.

Presenter16:33

Yes. And they sent for you to come to London. Thought it would be a good idea to invite the old man from Tel Aviv. They thought you really were an old man.

Topol16:38

Later.

Topol16:40

Yeah.

Speaker 216:40

Uh

Presenter16:40

How old were you, in fact? I was then twenty nine or thirty.

Presenter16:45

So what happened when you turned up at the audition? Well, uh it was a big, big disappointment. Actually, we had lunch together at the Garrick Club today and there came in the producer, Richard Pilbrough, who was very, very brave and I told you there at lunch that I think I still think that they were very brave to let me have that part. I mean, considering that I was thirty years old, considering that my English was uh so limited to uh a vocabulary of fifty words, I still don't understand how they let me have the part. So this audition was of course for the London production of Fiddler on the Roof.

Topol17:13

Uh

Presenter17:23

Did they know that you had been playing a part in Israel? No, they did not. And when I.

Presenter17:28

came on stage, I mean at the Drury Lane, and I started to sing. Naturally I went to the right place on stage where I sang it in the show. You knew all the moves? Yeah, I knew all the moves and uh all the choreography and so on. And the director asked me

Topol17:41

Uh

Speaker 217:41

Uh

Presenter17:46

How many times uh did you see the show? I said, Well, three or four times. And he said, Well, you have a wonderful memory, I mean, to to remember all the movements and so on. They were very impressed and then I told him that uh I played it in Tel Aviv for thirty or forty times. You say you only had those few words of English, but you had been working in America. I mean, how did you manage in in your film, for example? Well, in Castle Giant Shadow I played an Arab and an Arab sheikh. I mean, I I did speak a few words of English in the film, but obviously with an Arabic accent.

Topol18:11

And an Arab sheikh.

Presenter18:20

And actually, come think of it, with Denny Kaye, I played another Arab. I don't know why. Should have taken Omar Sharif.

Presenter18:31

But obviously before we started the London run I had my uh three or four months with Cicely Berry, my teacher, and she made sure that uh Tavia won't sound like an Arab.

Presenter18:41

Ha ha ha.

Presenter18:42

And you start it at Her Majesty's Theatre, stop the show.

Presenter18:48

Ran for what? You you were in it for a year? For a year, yeah.

Presenter18:52

Time for another record. Well, why won't we play the duo of uh It's Chai Perlman and John Williams. Yeah. Why do you choose this? Because uh

Presenter19:04

I think it sounds beautiful and uh it's a very unusual combination of a guitar and uh and violin. And I admire those two artists. I really think they are excellent artists and uh it's a wonderful combination.

Presenter20:24

Itzak Perlman and John Williams playing Paganini's first sonata for violin and guitar.

Presenter20:32

Now, London liked you very much in Feddler on the Roof. You liked London. In fact, you bought a flat here. Very, very much.

Presenter20:42

And you discovered you liked to work at the Festival Theatre, Chichester. You did several plays there? I did uh three seasons in uh Chichester, not consecutive ones, but I did sixty nine, did uh seventy three and uh

Presenter20:55

seventy five or six. And whenever I go there I take a place in West Twittering and in fact it's a holiday for the family. It's a very civilized way to work. You work only four or five times a week as opposed to the West End where you slave for eight performances a week. And even when you're in London you help to run the theatre company in Israel in which you take a a special interest? Well I'm a co-director of the uh popular theater in in Israel and uh we run

Presenter21:29

At the moment, surprise, surprise, I mean one of our shows is uh Fiddler on the Roof. Is it now? Is it doing any good? Very well. And uh actually the same team that directed it here directed it there after they finished working here. And uh three other shows are running now parallel to Fiddler. And uh we are a non-subsidized theater and uh

Presenter21:52

Thank God we don't need

Presenter21:54

And you've been doing all sorts of films, a James Bond film. Yeah, which I enjoyed very much. Working with Cobby Broccoli and with Roger Moore and the rest of the cast.

Topol22:00

Word

Topol22:03

The rest

Presenter22:05

And Flash Gordon. Flash Gordon, which I enjoyed very much. And of course we must talk about the film version of Fiddler on the Roof, which was a worldwide success. Yes. And there, actually, I had the privilege

Presenter22:18

of recording with one of the maestros of the world, with uh Isaac Stern, who actually is the fiddler. He plays the the fiddle on the soundtrack and it's a wonderful, wonderful recording. I wouldn't dare to take that with me to our island.

Presenter22:37

But uh I would definitely would celebrate with uh Isaac Stern and with the Pinky Tsuckermann and uh Zubin Mehta who conducted it.

Presenter22:48

And Terlman

Presenter22:50

Isaac Stern's sixtieth anniversary celebration, which we have here on a record. And watch the music, the the the three violins

Topol22:58

They're under three violins.

Presenter23:52

The second movement of Vivaldi's Concerto for three violins in F, played by Messrs. Suckerman, Pellman and Stern,

Presenter24:00

At a concert from Lincoln Center to celebrate Isaac Stern's sixtieth anniversary.

Presenter24:07

Right, now we were talking about uh Fiddler on the Roof, curiously enough. You were invited to come over last year to London to take part in the Royal Command performance and of course you sang if I were a rich man. You tore the place up and as a result how many offers did you get to come to London for a revival? Well uh w we used to get offers every year, I mean, from uh here and from America to come and play, but after that show

Speaker 324:26

Uh

Topol24:26

Yeah.

Presenter24:34

which I enjoyed tremendously. A number of producers, six different producers, came and suggested that we'll do the whole show in the West End. Then three or four of them got together and offered me a limited season in the Apollo Victoria. And the two words limited season really bought me and that's why I agreed to do it. How limited? How many performances? We agreed to 96 and but now it was extended to another four weeks, so we'll be finishing on the twenty-ninth of October, definitely.

Presenter25:13

You talked about your children. You have three. Any one of them in the theatre?

Presenter25:18

Well, one of them is already in the theatre. That's my daughter Anat, who is twenty-five, finished here the Guildhall School for Drama and she's now appearing in Trafford Tanzi in Tel Aviv and uh my baby in Hebrew yes. My youngest who is seventeen, my baby, Adi, is studying at the uh arts educational school and she has another two years to go. And uh my son, who just finished his national service in the navy, is seems to be uh normal and uh

Topol25:30

My baby.

Presenter25:54

He's going to study at the University of Medicines. He doesn't want any part of the theatre. I'm not sure yet. We'll see. We'll see.

Presenter26:01

Right, let's have another record. Well, if I were going to an island, I would take with me Brook's Colnidre, played by Casals.

Presenter26:12

I know we have the Bible on the on the island.

Topol26:16

What happened?

Presenter26:19

I think that the musical experience of Cornley Dre, which is probably the most sacred prayer of a Jew,

Presenter26:27

I would take it with me.

Speaker 326:59

Yeah.

Speaker 226:59

Uh

Speaker 227:00

Uh

Speaker 327:00

Uh

Presenter27:27

The brok setting of Colnidre, the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Landon Ronald, and of course Pablo Casals.

Presenter27:36

You're on this desert island, Toppol. How well could you look after yourself? I mean, you've spent time in the North African desert and the Israeli army. That should have given you a few ideas.

Speaker 227:45

Yeah.

Presenter27:45

Went through a survival course. Very useful. Could rig up shelter? I think so. Can you fish?

Speaker 227:49

Yeah.

Presenter27:53

Good.

Presenter27:54

Know anything about navigation? Stars, if it's not too clouded, yeah. So would you try to escape? Why? With all those records, with all those books, why to escape? We've only got one book. What's that going to be, by the way?

Presenter28:08

You you won't allow me to take the Britannica? Oh, no, no, no, no, that's not a book. I mean, that's a that's an organization. It is, isn't it? Well, I'd probably take with me this book.

Topol28:12

There was nothing.

Presenter28:20

Which I can't say sums up.

Presenter28:23

the Western uh thought or the Western civilization, but it definitely gives you a taste of it, and it's called The Great Treasures of Western Thought. Great Treasury of Western Thought, compiled by let's have a look, Mortimer J. Adler.

Presenter28:39

And Charles Van Doren. I'm glad you're carrying this about, not me. It's a two-handed book, that.

Presenter28:46

Right, your last record. My last record.

Presenter28:49

Well

Presenter28:50

I know that uh Galia, my dear friend and wife, would cry every time.

Presenter28:57

Oh, she does cry every time she hears that record. And it's the uh Octet for Strings, Mendelssohn's, and it's played by the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted uh by Zubin Mehta, and it does get a tear of mine as well from time to time. And on moody nights when I want to escape and I can't, I would listen to that.

Presenter30:21

An arrangement of Mendelssohn's octet for strings in E flat major, opus twenty, played by the strings of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Zubin Mehta.

Presenter30:32

Topol, if you could take only one disc of the eight that you played us, which would it be?

Speaker 230:36

Oh no.

Topol30:36

Yeah.

Presenter30:37

Oh, that's unfair. Oh, God. What would that take?

Presenter30:46

I would probably take the record with the Hebrew Psalms.

Presenter30:49

Esther esterophoremia. Right.

Topol30:50

Yeah.

Presenter30:52

And well, you've given us your book, Great Treasury of Western Thought, one luxury, one object you would like to have with you, of no practical value, but something that you would treasure.

Presenter31:04

I can't have a Chinese chef, can I?

Presenter31:08

No, it must be useless and not a living creature. How about?

Presenter31:17

An artist's kit. That's all right, yes. Easel, paints, pencils, paper. Not too practical, but uh it'll help to uh

Topol31:22

Uh

Speaker 231:22

Talk.

Presenter31:26

Past the time. Alright, you shall have it. Thank you, Toppol, for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter31:35

Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 232:01

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.