Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Roy Plomley
Dead Sea Scrolls scholar who deciphered the Copper Scroll and worked on editing the Qumran fragments.
Eight records
I've Got a Little List (from The Mikado)
The guest sang this as his fourth disc.
The keepsakes
No book or luxury recorded for this episode.
In conversation
Presenter asks
Did the Bedouins have any idea they had stumbled on something of great value?
No, none at all. He I take it was rather disappointed that he'd not found any jewels and and gold and silver in these uh jars, but he took the scrolls away with him and unrolled them and couldn't read them, of course, and eventually disposed of them to a dealer in Bethlehem. And the dealer got rid of them to his uh spiritual superior in Jerusalem, who eventually sold the lot for a quarter of a million dollars in America.
Presenter asks
How much is now known about the people who hid these scrolls?
Well, we knew something of them from the ancient historians. They were called Essenes. We now know a good deal more because we have their original writings. We know they lived down there by the Dead Sea from about 100 BC. They were led there by a priest whom they greatly revered, whom they call the teacher of righteousness. And they apparently left in about 68 AD. Now the documents about the life and discipline of this sect does show, I believe, an affinity with the tenets of Christianity. Yes. This is really the most exciting part and important part of the scrolls is they do fill in this important background before Jesus came and before the New Testament. It's this type of Judaism from which Christianity sprang. Yes. It is indeed possible that Jesus visited and worked with these people. It's possible, I think, that he visited them. I doubt whether they would have had him working with them because they would have required a three-year probation. It's difficult to fit that into the New Testament chronology.
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
John Allegro
Uh
John Allegro
BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. This is the only extract the BBC has of this episode. The surviving recording did not include the music, so we've recreated the programme, adding the castaways' choices. For rights' reasons, the music is shorter than on the original broadcast. The presenter is Roy Plomley. I hope you enjoy listening.
Presenter
The first discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was made by chance by a Bedouin boy, wasn't it? Yes, an exciting story. This lad was chasing after a stray goat up by the northwestern shores of the Dead Sea about fifteen years ago.
Presenter
And as he trailed this goat up the mountain side, he saw a rather strangely paced cave entrance. And stopping by the side, as it were, he threw a stone into the cave just to hear what would happen and heard it crash into pottery. And this intrigued him, since he was in the wilderness of Judea, so much that he pulled himself up and looked into the cave, and there discovered these great jars and saw them ranged along the walls and on the floor, and eventually got inside and made the first discoveries. Yes. This Judean wilderness i very desolate. Very desolate, yes. It's the hills run down from Jerusalem down, tumble down into the Dead Sea, and this is just the
Presenter
the border of the Dead Sea basin, um thirteen hundred feet below sea level. Yes. Now had had these Bedouins any idea that they'd stumbled on anything of great value? No, none at all. He I take it was rather disappointed that he'd not found any jewels and and gold and silver in these uh jars, but he took the scrolls away with him and unrolled them and couldn't read them, of course, and eventually disposed of them to a dealer in Bethlehem. And the dealer got rid of them to his uh spiritual superior in Jerusalem, who eventually sold the lot for a quarter of a million dollars in America. Oh great. But once this buying and selling had got on to an organized basis, looking for further caves became a major Bedouin industry. Yes, the Taamari tribe have really become the scroll hunters and have found
Presenter
hundreds of documents now, tens of thousands of fragments, and these have had to be pulled back from them. Yes. How many major hoards of this great hidden library have now been found? Uh in that first group there were eleven caves, the last one only found in nineteen fifty six, and most of that stuff still at large.
John Allegro
Blood.
Presenter
Still to be bought back? Yes, for want of money to buy them. Yes. These curls were on what, skin? Skin and papyrus, yes. In in varying condition.
Speaker 2
Uh
Presenter
Yes. The first ones are the best so far, the seven complete ones, the Biblical scrolls and others. But uh the others are many of them fragmentary. How many separate documents and scrolls do all these fragments constitute?
Presenter
Uh about four hundred of what did.
Presenter
Between the first century BC and the first century AD. Yes. All this, of course, w was was absolutely unique. No other documents of similar age have been found before in Palestine. No, this is really is the miracle that has had has occurred in the Holy Land, is that these
John Allegro
No, the
Presenter
These very ancient and and perishable materials have come to light in a country where hitherto it was thought to be too damp for them to be preserved. What percentage are are Biblical manuscripts? About a third of them. And the others?
John Allegro
By
Presenter
Uh
Presenter
Jewish sectarian writings.
Presenter
of this all important period. Do the Biblical scrolls differ greatly from the texts that we have in our Old Testament? No, comparatively little. They are usually recognizable from just a few words.
Presenter
But, nevertheless, the changes that we are finding are important from a scholarly point of view of understanding the transmission of the text over these thousands of years. Yes. Has the majority of the material in the scrolls that have been assembled now been published? No. A large part has not been published yet. Going forward very, very slowly indeed. Far too slowly, in my opinion.
Presenter
Let's have record number four.
Speaker 2
Such as what you may call him, Thingamibob, and likewise, well, never mind, and ta-ta-tut and what's his name, and also, well, you know who, the task of filling up the banks I'd rather leave to you, but it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list, for they'd none of em be missed, they'd none of em be missed.
Presenter
How much is now known about the people who hid these scrolls?
Presenter
Well, we knew something of them from the ancient historians. They were called Essenes.
Presenter
Um
Presenter
We now know a good deal more because we have their original writings. We know they lived down there by the Dead Sea from about 100 BC. They were led there by a priest whom they greatly revered, whom they call the teacher of righteousness. And they apparently left in about 68 AD. Now the documents about the life and discipline of this sect does show, I believe, an affinity with the tenets of Christianity. Yes. This is really the most exciting part and important part of the scrolls is they do fill in this important background before Jesus came and before the New Testament. It's this type of Judaism from which Christianity sprang. Yes. It is indeed possible that Jesus visited and worked with these people. It's possible, I think, that he visited them. I doubt whether they would have had him working with them because they would have required a three-year probation. It's difficult to fit that into the New Testament chronology. Yes. Now, the monastery in which the Essenes worked has now been excavated. Yes, about a mile from the first cave. The archaeologists saw these ruins and over five seasons have dug them clear of the dust and rubble. And now the visitor can walk through the rooms and see them more or less as they were in the time of Jesus. Yes. All this work and study and research, how is it being financed?
Presenter
Well, this of course has been the difficulty. The archaeological societies out there have contributed towards the digging up of the place itself, but our work on editing the fragments has been done individually, and um some of us have had great difficulties in finding money where our universities don't help us.
Presenter
Do you believe there are further hoards, further cache of these documents to be found? Oh yes, there's no doubt at all that this is now must be regarded as a veritable storehouse of hidden manuscript treasures right along the western shores of the Dead Sea at least and perhaps the eastern shores. And largely unexplored territory. So it's possible that somewhere there there are contemporary references to the ministry of Jesus. I shouldn't be surprised, particularly in the area in which we've been working recently, the Kidron Valley, which is the escape route from Jerusalem. And if the Jesus followers went this way in 68 AD, they could well have taken with them the words of Jesus and things like that. And these may well be found any day.
Presenter
So it seems ridiculous that this project isn't being adequately and internationally financed. Well, it's ridiculous that what we've now started, the Dead Sea Scrolls Fund in this country, as usual taking the initiative, if I may say so, fifteen years after the first discovery. There's one scroll, the copper scroll, that I believe you've been very personally concerned with that refers excitingly to buried treasure. Yes, this is great fun. Quite unique.
Presenter
Found in the Qumran area, but not, I think, connected with the SE documents. Uh it was cut open in Manchester in the College of Science and Technology and I deciphered it there for the first time and it turned out to be sixty one items of buried treasure from King Herod's temple. Are the indications explicit enough to justify a search one day?
Presenter
Er yes, I think so. The details are explicit, but the general locations, they are using place names which we don't always identify, or at least not quite sure how they identified them.
Presenter asks
How is all this work and research being financed?
Well, this of course has been the difficulty. The archaeological societies out there have contributed towards the digging up of the place itself, but our work on editing the fragments has been done individually, and um some of us have had great difficulties in finding money where our universities don't help us.
Presenter asks
Do you believe there are further hoards of these documents to be found?
Oh yes, there's no doubt at all that this is now must be regarded as a veritable storehouse of hidden manuscript treasures right along the western shores of the Dead Sea at least and perhaps the eastern shores. And largely unexplored territory. So it's possible that somewhere there there are contemporary references to the ministry of Jesus. I shouldn't be surprised, particularly in the area in which we've been working recently, the Kidron Valley, which is the escape route from Jerusalem. And if the Jesus followers went this way in 68 AD, they could well have taken with them the words of Jesus and things like that. And these may well be found any day.
Presenter asks
Are the indications in the copper scroll explicit enough to justify a search for the buried treasure?
Er yes, I think so. The details are explicit, but the general locations, they are using place names which we don't always identify, or at least not quite sure how they identified them.
“He I take it was rather disappointed that he'd not found any jewels and and gold and silver in these uh jars, but he took the scrolls away with him and unrolled them and couldn't read them, of course, and eventually disposed of them to a dealer in Bethlehem.”
“This is really the most exciting part and important part of the scrolls is they do fill in this important background before Jesus came and before the New Testament. It's this type of Judaism from which Christianity sprang.”
“some of us have had great difficulties in finding money where our universities don't help us.”
“So it's possible that somewhere there there are contemporary references to the ministry of Jesus. I shouldn't be surprised, particularly in the area in which we've been working recently, the Kidron Valley, which is the escape route from Jerusalem. And if the Jesus followers went this way in 68 AD, they could well have taken with them the words of Jesus and things like that. And these may well be found any day.”