Kenneth Macmillan

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 30:05

For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1983.

Speaker 30:11

And the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

This week, our castaway is the choreographer and ballet director, Kenneth MacMillan.

Presenter0:37

Kenneth, you play records a lot, for pleasure.

Kenneth Macmillan0:39

Well, uh music is in my life the whole time. I'm surrounded by music. Every day I go into work I hear somebody playing a piano.

Kenneth Macmillan0:47

I tend not to play records at home because I hear so much at work.

Presenter0:51

You must find discs very useful at work. When you're visualising a ballet, you can play a piece of recorded music over and over.

Kenneth Macmillan0:59

Oh, uh yes, that's wonderful. I mean, at one time when I was starting to be a choreographer, I used to haunt the gramophone shops and go in and play something just to hear it, and then not buy the record.

Kenneth Macmillan1:11

Have you studied music? Do you play an instrument? No, I don't at all. Can you read a score? No, I I don't, and I'm glad I don't,'cause I don't want to know the mathematics of the music. I want to hear the emotion.

Presenter1:23

Did you find it a difficult task to choose just eight disks that may have to last a long, long time?

Kenneth Macmillan1:30

I did, because I fell into the trap of being a director, and thought I must choose a well-balanced program.

Kenneth Macmillan1:37

And then I really thought about being cast away, and then I came to my final choice. It was difficult.

Presenter1:42

Yeah.

Speaker 41:42

Mm-hmm.

Presenter1:43

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan1:43

And I find most of the things I've chosen are vocal, which surprises me. What's the first one?

Kenneth Macmillan1:49

Well, the first one is a sort of fun record. I remember seeing Joan Sutherland make her debut in Lucia de Lammemore at um Covent Garden. And then I heard this record, and it's the students' chorus from the student prince.

Kenneth Macmillan2:04

And I think she has such effrontery and cheek to come in the way she does. I think it would make me laugh.

Speaker 42:46

My hand is all that I can

Speaker 42:53

Uh

Presenter3:05

Joan Sutherland making a very definite entrance in The Student Prince. That is a marvellous recording.

Kenneth Macmillan3:11

Oh yes, it's like Muhammad Ali saying I'm the best.

Presenter3:16

Now, Kenneth, you are a Scott, of course, but you didn't stay there long.

Kenneth Macmillan3:20

No, I left Scotland when I was five.

Presenter3:22

Uh

Presenter3:22

Your father was in the catering business, which meant that you lived at the seaside for a lot of the time.

Kenneth Macmillan3:28

His idea he had many jobs, actually. I mean, he was a labourer, he had a chicken farm, eventually he was a chef in a hotel, and we settled in Great Yarmouth, which is on the East Coast.

Presenter3:39

You were at school then?

Kenneth Macmillan3:40

Yes, I was.

Presenter3:41

But you were a f

Kenneth Macmillan3:42

Yeah.

Presenter3:42

evacuated from Yarmouth, so Yarmouth was a a a danger zone.

Kenneth Macmillan3:46

Yes, it was a port, so we had naval ships there, and they decided to evacuate all the children. But the funny thing was that

Kenneth Macmillan3:56

in the school holidays we were allowed back, so we could be killed in the school holidays, but not in term time.

Presenter4:02

Well, that didn't count.

Kenneth Macmillan4:03

No.

Presenter4:03

Uh

Kenneth Macmillan4:04

Yeah.

Presenter4:04

Did dancing come into your life very early? Did you see dancing as a child?

Kenneth Macmillan4:09

I saw Fredericeo in in movies and I must say I thought he was wonderful and that's what I wanted to be.

Kenneth Macmillan4:16

And so I went to a little local dancing school, ostensibly, to learn tap dancing. And they said, How about banny? and I said, How about banny? Boys don't do bounty and they said, Yes, they do.

Kenneth Macmillan4:27

And then I read some books out of the library and I realized there were people like Nudjinski who had been a very famous ballet dancer and I decided to study it.

Presenter4:36

You haven't seen any seriousness.

Kenneth Macmillan4:37

No, nothing.

Presenter4:40

But and there was a school in Great Yomik.

Kenneth Macmillan4:42

Well, it was really when I was evacuated in Retford in Nottinghamshire. There was a tiny little school there that I went to.

Presenter4:46

Is it

Presenter4:49

And you presumably appeared in displays.

Kenneth Macmillan4:54

I uh think I appeared in a couple of displays and a couple of sunshine competitions for children. What did that involve?

Presenter5:01

Uh

Kenneth Macmillan5:02

The the Sunshine Homes for the Blind used to I don't know whether they still do, they used to run dancing competitions for children and used to win medals and certificates and things. Did you win one?

Presenter5:12

Did you win one?

Kenneth Macmillan5:13

I got third in classical ballet.

Presenter5:16

Well, that's very encouraging.

Kenneth Macmillan5:17

Well, I didn't think so at the time. I thought I was going to be first.

Presenter5:21

Yeah.

Presenter5:22

Well, now you had no contact at all. You didn't know anybody in in the professional dancing world.

Kenneth Macmillan5:26

Yeah, I didn't think we'd

Presenter5:27

So what did you do? How did you get in?

Kenneth Macmillan5:30

Well, I bought a dance magazine that I saw displayed in a window, and in it there was an advertisement for boys for the then Saddlers Wells Ballet School, which later became the Royal Ballet. They were advertising for pupils. They were, because most of the young men in the company had been called up and were in the forces.

Presenter5:45

They were

Kenneth Macmillan5:50

So they were insuring their future by offering scholarships to boys in the school. And I wrote in my father's name, in very schoolboy writing, I'm afraid to say, saying, My son is a very good dancer. Would you please see him and maybe give him a scholarship?

Presenter6:09

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan6:09

I think somewhere in the archives at Covent Garden they still have that letter to my shame.

Presenter6:13

To my shame. And you had a reply?

Kenneth Macmillan6:18

Yes, I had a reply from Dame Lynette Devalva, who said come up on a certain day, and I had to do a class with the company members, and she placed me between

Kenneth Macmillan6:29

Margot Fontaine, who wasn't a Dameline, and Beryl Gray, two of the greatest dancers.

Kenneth Macmillan6:35

in the Royal Ballet, and there I was, a little fourteen year old boy, auditioning between these two great dancers.

Presenter6:41

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan6:41

which was a great thrill for me, but it also terrified me.

Presenter6:45

And you were successful?

Kenneth Macmillan6:47

Well then I went back home and then I didn't hear for ages and I thought, Oh, well, I haven't got the scholarship at all And then out of the blue my dancing teacher got a letter from Dame Lynette who said, Yes, we'll take him, but not now because the V bombs are dropping on London. So we'll let you know when that's over and then he can come up.

Presenter7:06

Well, that was very considerate of David.

Kenneth Macmillan7:08

Well it was. It was wonderful.

Presenter7:11

Well, there you are, you're in what was later to be the Royal Ballet.

Kenneth Macmillan7:14

Mm-hmm.

Presenter7:15

So let's have your second record.

Kenneth Macmillan7:17

My second record is the Dominideus from Poulanx Gloria.

Kenneth Macmillan7:22

And I've chosen this A because I've done a ballet to it.

Kenneth Macmillan7:26

and b because it reminds me of my father, who was a soldier in the First World War.

Kenneth Macmillan7:31

and was gassed. I mean, he didn't die, but he suffered from that all his life.

Kenneth Macmillan7:37

And when I came to do the ballot it was prompted by thinking about the First World War and my father.

Presenter8:45

Domini Deus from Poulan's Gloria.

Presenter8:49

The French National Radio Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Georges Preitre and the soloist Rosanna Cartieri.

Presenter8:55

So to the Saddlers Wells Ballet School. Where was it in those days?

Kenneth Macmillan9:00

Well, the Bally School in those days was very small and it was housed in the Saddleswell Theatre where the company were appearing. And what was wonderful for our students is that during the performances we could sneak up into the flies and have a bird's eye view of the performances, which was really great.

Kenneth Macmillan9:20

No, we all lived in digs.

Kenneth Macmillan9:23

You know, theatrical digs.

Presenter9:25

Were you doing any school subject, or just dancing?

Kenneth Macmillan9:27

We did some school subjects, but it really wasn't developed for school, and it later became when it became the Royal Ballet,

Kenneth Macmillan9:34

I mean, the school became enormous and is housed in White Lodge in Richmond Park.

Presenter9:39

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan9:39

But it was nothing like that in those days. It was very makeshift.

Presenter9:43

Did you ever appear with the company, I mean, just to fill up the stage, as it were?

Kenneth Macmillan9:48

Well, when when the company moved from Saddler's Wells to the Royal Opera House, the opening performances were The Sleeping Beauty.

Kenneth Macmillan9:55

And of course, it was an enormous production, so they had to employ some of the students as walk on parts, and I got one of those walk on parts. And I think I saw The Sleeping Beauty every night for three weeks, and I thought it was magical.

Presenter10:04

But that

Presenter10:09

And then you moved more or less automatically to the Saddlers Wells Theatre Ballet.

Kenneth Macmillan10:14

Yes, that was I think it was formed in nineteen forty six. Because the company had moved out of its home theatre, there was no ballet company there, so Dame Lynette decided to make another smaller company, which she made up of all us young students, really. I mean, we were so green. It was ridiculous.

Presenter10:29

Wait.

Presenter10:35

Mr.

Kenneth Macmillan10:37

Were you performing um we performed every Saturday matinee once a week.

Presenter10:42

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan10:42

But we did do touring. We went to places like Worcester and Exeter and Howell.

Presenter10:48

So more or less straight away you were dancing leading roles.

Kenneth Macmillan10:52

Oh, no, I mean I was in the Corps de Valley for quite a time, before I got my first big solarole, which was at Covent Garden, actually.

Presenter10:59

And quite soon you were transferred to the carpenter garden.

Kenneth Macmillan11:02

Yes, I think I was about nineteen when I was changed over to the big company the Royal Opera House.

Presenter11:09

So you what I'm

Kenneth Macmillan11:10

On the way.

Kenneth Macmillan11:11

I was on the way, yes, but not the way I really wanted it. I mean, I was a very good dancer and I was getting very good things to do, but I wasn't very happy. And

Kenneth Macmillan11:23

I wanted to do something creative.

Kenneth Macmillan11:27

and I had this sort of funny idea that one became a choreographer at forty.

Kenneth Macmillan11:33

Forty seemed great age to me.

Kenneth Macmillan11:36

And I didn't think anyone would dare attempt it before forty. I didn't know where I got this fixed idea from, it was so silly.

Kenneth Macmillan11:43

And then we somebody formed a little Sunday workshop where young choreographers could try out and do experimental things.

Kenneth Macmillan11:52

And I tried something, and it was an enormous success.

Speaker 411:57

Mm-hmm.

Kenneth Macmillan11:57

And people like Margot Thoughting came round to see me in the dressing room, which had never happened in my life. I mean, I was bowled over. So from that moment on I knew my direction was choreography.

Presenter12:09

Right.

Kenneth Macmillan12:09

and I gave up dancing as soon as possible.

Presenter12:12

Good. We'll talk about your choreography in a minute, Gennas. Let's have your third record.

Kenneth Macmillan12:15

And

Kenneth Macmillan12:17

My third record is Sarah Vaughan singing Misty. Now I'm playing this because it would remind me on the island of my wife.

Kenneth Macmillan12:26

There was a film called Play Misty for me, and a friend of mine had invited me to go and see it, and unbeknownst to me he had also invited another friend.

Kenneth Macmillan12:36

who was later to become my wife, and we met during this terribly violent film where this song was played.

Kenneth Macmillan12:45

Afterwards I got home and I rang up my friend.

Kenneth Macmillan12:48

Because the girl I had met had just moved and she didn't have her telephone number, and when I asked for it I thought I was getting the brush off.

Kenneth Macmillan12:57

And so I rang him as soon as I got home, and he he didn't even say is that you, Kenneth, he just said she likes you too.

Kenneth Macmillan13:05

So this record will remind me of that moment.

Speaker 413:10

Oh look at me.

Speaker 413:15

I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree And I feel like I'm clinging to a cloak I can't

Kenneth Macmillan13:22

I feel like

Speaker 413:28

Understand I get misty just hold

Presenter13:41

Sarah Vaughan singing Misty.

Presenter13:43

As a dancer, Kenneth, what were your best roles?

Kenneth Macmillan13:47

I was a classical dancer and I got all the sort of pyrotechnic roles. You know, I had to come on and do very technical tricks really. I did the Pas d'Atois in Swan Lake, Floriston in The Sleeping Beauty. I actually did two performances of Bluebird and was very bad in it, actually, in The Sleeping Beauty.

Kenneth Macmillan14:10

And because I had to come out on the stage and just do what I thought were tricks, I thought it was pretty panal, actually and very boring.

Kenneth Macmillan14:19

and I wanted to express myself more.

Presenter14:22

So you worked in this little choreographic group. What was your first...

Kenneth Macmillan14:25

Yeah what

Presenter14:27

Professionally produced ballet.

Kenneth Macmillan14:29

It was commissioned by Dame Lynette for the Saddlers Wells Theatre Ballet, and it was dance concertante of Stravinsky. It was a purely abstract work, just dancing.

Kenneth Macmillan14:41

No story, nothing.

Presenter14:42

and it made a considerable success.

Kenneth Macmillan14:44

Yes, of course. I mean

Kenneth Macmillan14:46

Everyone is very nice in encouraging the young, it's later they change their minds.

Presenter14:49

For layer.

Presenter14:51

and on the strength of that encouragement

Kenneth Macmillan14:54

Cool.

Presenter14:55

Bally is followed thick and fast, really.

Kenneth Macmillan14:57

Oh, absolutely.

Presenter14:58

How soon after you had started choreographing did you give up dancing?

Kenneth Macmillan15:01

As soon as I had done dance consultante I went to Daimlin and said, Look,

Kenneth Macmillan15:06

I think I'm going to be doing this for a long time. Please let me give up dancing. And she said fine.

Presenter15:11

Did you give up your bar work?

Kenneth Macmillan15:13

Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, it had become so tedious for me because it didn't mean anything to me any more.

Presenter15:20

You had a great

Kenneth Macmillan15:20

You had a great

Presenter15:21

Feeling for Stravinsky's music.

Kenneth Macmillan15:23

Yes, I did.

Presenter15:24

Another of your earliest excesses, which is still in the repertoire, is is the Rite of Spring. And uh

Presenter15:30

Baisette la Fay.

Kenneth Macmillan15:32

Yes, I think most of my ballets have had music by twentieth century composers. I very rarely have gone back into the nineteenth century even.

Presenter15:41

But your first long work was the Procoffia for Romania and Juliet.

Kenneth Macmillan15:44

That of course is twentieth century. Uh Manot is Massone, which is of course not this century. But there are very, very few ballets that I have done that haven't been music from this century.

Presenter15:57

You went off for three years as director of the German Opera Ballet in West Berlin. Was

Kenneth Macmillan16:01

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan16:02

And was was that

Presenter16:03

A productive time.

Kenneth Macmillan16:03

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan16:05

Well, I don't know about productive. I learnt a great deal. I mean, I was becoming a director of a big banner company for the first time, so I had to administer

Presenter16:14

You speak to

Kenneth Macmillan16:15

Dermot.

Kenneth Macmillan16:15

No, this is one of the drawbacks, I'm afraid.

Presenter16:19

And as red

Kenneth Macmillan16:20

And very few people spoke English, so I was terribly, terribly lonely.

Presenter16:24

Was there a lot of administrative work to do?

Kenneth Macmillan16:27

Oh, an awful lot, yes. And also I was feeling my way about how to run a company in a foreign language.

Speaker 416:34

Yeah.

Presenter16:34

Mm-hmm.

Kenneth Macmillan16:35

And it was very difficult to be real friends with the dancers if you then have to become an authoritative figure.

Presenter16:42

Yes.

Kenneth Macmillan16:42

Yeah.

Presenter16:44

You presumably recreated a few of your coppin garden works.

Kenneth Macmillan16:48

I don't think I did. I think everything I did was new, even to a new production of The Sleeping Beauty and a new production of Swan Leg.

Presenter16:49

Yeah.

Presenter16:55

So you found time to keep up your choreography.

Kenneth Macmillan16:58

Oh, I had to, yeah.

Presenter17:00

Were there any cotton garden dancers with you?

Kenneth Macmillan17:02

Yes, I had taken Lynn Seymour with me, and another dancer, Virgie Derman.

Presenter17:07

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan17:08

Virgie Derman has returned to the Royal Bannet. Unfortunately Lynne Seymour has retired now, but she has always been a great inspiration for me and my works, and I miss her very much.

Presenter17:20

Must have been rather nice to have those two anchors with you.

Kenneth Macmillan17:23

Oh, absolutely. Yes, at least I could speak English and have a good joke with them, you know.

Presenter17:27

Two note.

Presenter17:29

Your fourth record.

Kenneth Macmillan17:30

My fourth record is a piece from Mahler's Das Lied von der Ede. Again, it's a ballet I've done, and I've chosen it because it was the first ballet that I did that I was really, really satisfied with.

Kenneth Macmillan17:46

I think it has a great unity of style, which until then had eluded me.

Kenneth Macmillan17:51

And on this record, which is Der Ein Samme in Hebs, which I think means loneliness in autumn, it's sung by Kathleen Ferrier, who I admired greatly.

Speaker 418:33

Oh for your name.

Presenter18:57

Mahler's Song of the Earth Kathleen Ferrier with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Bruno Walter. Now you returned from Berlin to be director of the Royal Ballet.

Kenneth Macmillan19:08

Believe me.

Presenter19:09

You were only the third.

Kenneth Macmillan19:11

Yes, it was a very good idea.

Presenter19:12

In in a long time.

Kenneth Macmillan19:13

Yeah, it was a very awe inspiring job to take on, I have to say,'cause I knew my predecessors very well. I mean, Sir Frederick Ashton and Dame Lynette. Uh I mean, I was really their baby. I mean, they had taught me everything.

Kenneth Macmillan19:30

So I was rather overawed, actually, taking it over.

Presenter19:33

And once again, as in Berlin, you had all the administrative work and the policy making, as well as keeping up your work as a choreographer.

Kenneth Macmillan19:40

Well, I did have an administrative director with me. I mean, we shared the administration together. It was called Peter Wright, who now directs the Saddlers Wells Royal Panetti, and he took a lot of work from my shoulders.

Kenneth Macmillan19:53

But I still found it very, very difficult.

Presenter19:56

How many people whose destinies were in your hands? I mean, how many dancers?

Kenneth Macmillan20:03

Well, just at that moment they had amalgamated the two Royal Ballet companies, so I had well over a hundred.

Presenter20:11

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan20:11

which was far too much and we had to get rid of quite a few.

Presenter20:11

Uh

Presenter20:15

Well over a hundred, all with temperaments and occasional grievances. They all had to come.

Kenneth Macmillan20:18

Oh yeah, they're all knocking on Malfa's door.

Presenter20:22

But you did the two jobs for seven years.

Kenneth Macmillan20:24

I did, yes.

Presenter20:27

Well it would be pointless to list all the ballets you've created, Kenneth. What's the total number?

Kenneth Macmillan20:34

Oh heavens, uh, that's a very difficult question. I hadn't even thought about that. Well, well over forty.

Presenter20:39

Well, let's just talk about the major full evening ballets you've created, Anastasia, the Procoffia for Juliet, Manon and Miling. How do you begin with a with a vast task like that, which must take a a year, does it not?

Kenneth Macmillan20:41

Evening ballets.

Kenneth Macmillan20:45

Really?

Kenneth Macmillan20:47

What

Kenneth Macmillan20:53

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan20:54

Yes, it does take a year. I mean, in each case it's different, you know.

Kenneth Macmillan20:58

With Anastasia I had the idea first and then I had to find the music to fit the idea.

Kenneth Macmillan21:05

With Romeo and Juliet, the music already s existed, so did the libretto from Shakespeare. I mean, you know, so I didn't have to make that up.

Presenter21:11

So

Kenneth Macmillan21:15

It takes me a year to do a full-length ballet because the company is a repertory company and they have to keep rehearsing the works that they are performing at the current moment. So sometimes I would only get an hour's work a day and I have to create on the dances that are available. I can't start at the beginning and all go all the way through. It's rather like a film.

Kenneth Macmillan21:39

I have to just take what is available.

Presenter21:42

Can you get a a detailed scenario first?

Kenneth Macmillan21:45

Oh yes, I I I do that. I mean I listen to the music.

Presenter21:49

Or commission the music center.

Kenneth Macmillan21:49

Or commission the music, sorry. Or comm yeah, well I sometimes commission music, but then I listen to it so I really know it backwards.

Kenneth Macmillan21:57

I then divided into what are going to be padded, solos, cord ballet work.

Kenneth Macmillan22:03

But I don't actually work out any steps until I'm in the room with the dancers, because I feel the dancers influence me. I mean, everybody is different.

Kenneth Macmillan22:14

I mean, the actual physical body is different.

Presenter22:16

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan22:17

The way a body is put together inspires.

Kenneth Macmillan22:21

And the way they can move to music. So I have to allow for that when I'm inventing steps.

Presenter22:27

And you have the designs to supervise.

Kenneth Macmillan22:30

Priest.

Presenter22:30

Which designers have you worked with most closely through your career?

Kenneth Macmillan22:34

Well most closely is Nicholas Georgiard is one of the great designers of this century. And he designed my very first ballet dance concertante and it's a quite an amusing story actually. I went to Damien and I said I want to go to the Slade School of Art because I hear they have a theatre design course there.

Kenneth Macmillan22:55

And she said, Fine, good I'll come with you.

Kenneth Macmillan22:59

and I took it on trust that she knew where it was. And we got out of the taxi and walked into University College Hospital.

Kenneth Macmillan23:07

And I kept noticing the nurses, and I kept saying to her, Madam, there are nurses here and she wouldn't listen to me until she finally was confronted by a nurse and realized we were in the wrong building.

Presenter23:07

And I kept noticing

Presenter23:13

Oh.

Presenter23:19

Yeah.

Presenter23:22

and certain dancers with whom you've worked closely through the years.

Kenneth Macmillan23:27

I suppose the m the most close relationship as a dancer I've had has been with Lynne Seymour. Of course all my early ballets were done for Marian Lane.

Kenneth Macmillan23:36

I think Lynne really has influenced me a great deal, in A, my choice of material, and B exactly what I give the dancer to do.

Presenter23:46

It must make things much easier when you're working with people that you know very well. You understand each other's shorthand.

Kenneth Macmillan23:52

Oh yes. I mean, very often with Elena I didn't really have to say anything.

Kenneth Macmillan23:56

I mean, she was there before me. She had anticipated my thought.

Kenneth Macmillan24:01

But especially as I've worked so long with the same company, the dancers do get used to the way I think and they help me enormously.

Presenter24:10

And it's a

Kenneth Macmillan24:10

And it's a great company. I love working with it.

Presenter24:13

I'm sure.

Presenter24:14

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan24:14

Your f

Presenter24:14

First record

Kenneth Macmillan24:15

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan24:16

My next record is the four C interludes from Benjamin Britton's Peter Grimes. When it was first premiered in nineteen forty six, I think it was, at Saddles Wells Theatre, I was then still a student in the school and I was around while all the dress rehearsals were going on in the theatre.

Kenneth Macmillan24:34

and this extraordinary music was coming out, and to me it was magical, it was wonderful.

Kenneth Macmillan24:41

Also, it reminds me of Great Yarmouth, where I lived. Benjamin Britton came from Suffolk. Yarmouth is in Norfolk, so it's just down the road.

Kenneth Macmillan24:50

and it reminds me of walking along the beach in stormy weather.

Kenneth Macmillan24:55

And that's why I'd like to hear it on the island.

Presenter25:57

One of Benjamin Britton's four C interludes from Peter Grimes and the composer is conducting the orchestra of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden.

Presenter26:06

After your first seven years as director of the Royal Ballet,

Presenter26:11

You were able to get rid of the administrative work and become just chief choreographer.

Kenneth Macmillan26:16

Yes, I actually resigned from the position. I mean, I I found it got too much for me.

Kenneth Macmillan26:22

Because not only is there all well, I didn't have all the administration, as I've said before.

Kenneth Macmillan26:29

But besides engaging other choreographers to come to the company, I had to produce my own ballets. I also had to go and see every single performance, because it's not fair to the dancer to say, Well, you won't be good when you haven't seen them.

Presenter26:43

No.

Kenneth Macmillan26:44

And really the last draw was in Bristol. I had to see eight performances of my own Romey and Juliet, and I thought, My God, I can't stand this any more, and I resigned.

Kenneth Macmillan26:57

and became just the principal carrier of

Presenter26:59

Thanks.

Kenneth Macmillan27:00

So I now only do ballets.

Kenneth Macmillan27:03

You've been working on a

Presenter27:05

A Macmillan triple bill which has just gone into the repertoire. Tell me about that.

Kenneth Macmillan27:11

Well, the first ballet in the evening is Stravinsky's Orpheus, which I did last year.

Kenneth Macmillan27:17

The second ballet is a brand new one, vaguely based on the book

Kenneth Macmillan27:23

and the film called The Garden of the Finzi Continis.

Kenneth Macmillan27:28

And the third work is Requiem which

Kenneth Macmillan27:31

I did in Stuttgart, I think it was in nineteen seventy seven, but it hasn't been seen at the Opera House. So it's a brand new work for the Royal Band.

Presenter27:40

Now the brand new work altogether, whose music is that?

Kenneth Macmillan27:43

Well it's a mixture of Tchaikovsky and Martineau.

Presenter27:46

That you've arranged us.

Kenneth Macmillan27:47

I've arranged myself, yes.

Presenter27:49

How many performances will appear this evening?

Kenneth Macmillan27:52

Well, I think there'll be about six because the company has then to go off on tour to New York and Japan and China. But it will be back in the autumn.

Presenter28:01

Uh

Kenneth Macmillan28:01

Right.

Kenneth Macmillan28:03

Record number six.

Kenneth Macmillan28:04

The next record I have chosen is the Pied Jesu from Forrest Requiem, sung by Jonathan Bond, a boy treble. And I have chosen this because I have used this music as a ballet in Stuttgart and when I was doing it my daughter was there and she was four years old and we went out one night to a friend's place and he put on some bach and she started a dance and she s danced for something like two hours.

Kenneth Macmillan28:32

And it was enchanting and

Kenneth Macmillan28:35

I thought, my God, I wish I could do that kind of choreography, and the next day I went in and tried. So this record would remind me of my daughter.

Speaker 429:31

He a yesterday.

Presenter29:40

the Piedgesieu from the Fore Requiem, the Academy of Saint Martin in the Fields with the choir of Saint John's College, Cambridge, and the soloist Jonathan Bonn.

Presenter29:51

If just one of your ballets were to be remembered, Kenneth, which one would you like it to be?

Kenneth Macmillan29:57

Heavens, that's a very difficult question. Um

Kenneth Macmillan30:01

I think so of the earth. Again, I think it's the valley that I

Kenneth Macmillan30:05

I gain most unity in and I also think

Kenneth Macmillan30:08

The music even by itself is a masterpiece, so, you know, I think I would like that to live on too.

Presenter30:14

And nowadays, of course, ballets can be preserved, they can be videotaped as a matter of course.

Kenneth Macmillan30:20

Mm-hmm.

Presenter30:20

In the old days it was difficult because filming was expensive. Is there yet any kind of uh notation which works?

Kenneth Macmillan30:23

Is the

Kenneth Macmillan30:28

Oh yes, there is, thank goodness, because in the old days one relied on memory.

Kenneth Macmillan30:33

One relied on dancers passing down ballets one to the other.

Kenneth Macmillan30:38

Now there is a system of notation where you can actually write down the movements.

Kenneth Macmillan30:43

every single movement you can think of.

Kenneth Macmillan30:46

And this ensures complete accuracy when we come to revive a burning. Who devised the system? It was a man called Rudolph Benisch, and he devised the system for his wife, who was a dancer, who I think had difficulty in remembering the things she was having to learn, so he decided to experiment and see if he could invent a notation. There have been other notations, of course.

Kenneth Macmillan31:10

But the notation I use is the Benish notation.

Kenneth Macmillan31:14

Uh

Presenter31:14

What are your future plans? Have you anything in mind, anything that you're evolving?

Kenneth Macmillan31:20

Well, last year for the first time I directed two plays, which was a departure for me. I directed two Inesco plays, The Chairs and the Lesson, in a fringe pub theatre, which I enjoyed enormously.

Presenter31:26

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan31:36

I would like to do more plays, obviously. I'd like to combine a the career of still doing ballets and directing plays.

Presenter31:45

Your ballets are very often done overseas by foreign companies. Do you go over and get the best?

Kenneth Macmillan31:47

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan31:50

Oh, yes, always. I do, yes. I usually send a choreologist, that is someone who has done the dance notation.

Kenneth Macmillan31:59

I usually send a choreologist over to teach all the steps. Then I go in, say, the last three weeks to polish it and tell the dancers my real intentions about the work.

Presenter32:04

Then I

Kenneth Macmillan32:12

But I do go.

Kenneth Macmillan32:14

Uh

Presenter32:14

Uh

Kenneth Macmillan32:14

What a

Presenter32:14

Uh

Kenneth Macmillan32:14

Yeah.

Presenter32:14

Uh Occupations when you're not working. What do you like to do?

Kenneth Macmillan32:18

Heavens, um I like the cinema very much.

Presenter32:20

You are a film buffer. Yes. You go very frequently.

Kenneth Macmillan32:23

Yes, I do. Less often than I used to. When I was younger I used to go twice a day when I had the time. You know, I just loved the films. I still do. I worked on a few films.

Presenter32:34

Which ones in particular?

Kenneth Macmillan32:35

I worked on Nijinski.

Kenneth Macmillan32:39

They also did the balcony padder from Rome and Juliet and the Turning Point.

Kenneth Macmillan32:44

Um very early on in the fifties I did the dances for Expresso Bongo, which was a musical in the West End.

Presenter32:49

Which is a m

Kenneth Macmillan32:51

And all the glamour went out of films for me when I knew I had to be there at six o'clock in the morning and wait till five o'clock in the afternoon for the first take.

Kenneth Macmillan32:59

Yes. I'm amazed that any good films are made really,'cause I know how hard it is.

Presenter33:05

Yeah.

Kenneth Macmillan33:06

Uh the next record is Julia Andrews singing If Love Were All. Now I've chosen this because she was really the very first big international star that I ever worked with.

Kenneth Macmillan33:20

She had done My Fair Lady, and I think she'd done Camelot, and she came over here and she was doing a television show.

Kenneth Macmillan33:26

And she asked me to do the choreography for the show, and I was thrilled to be asked.

Kenneth Macmillan33:32

I was dying to make her dance and I didn't dare because she was such a big star. I wish I had now because I've since got to know her better and I know she's a very good dancer. And I like her very, very much and that's why I like this record.

Speaker 433:51

I believe in doing what I can.

Speaker 433:56

Cry when I must.

Speaker 433:59

In laughing when I chew

Speaker 434:08

If not were all I should be low.

Presenter34:16

Julie Andrew singing If Love Were All from Noel Card's Bittersweet

Presenter34:22

Now, the problems of isolation. Could you endure loneliness, do you think, Kenneth?

Kenneth Macmillan34:26

I think I would be absolutely terrible. That's why I would like to have all these records with me. And I think it'd be awful. I mean.

Kenneth Macmillan34:35

I suffered a great deal of loneliness when I was in Berlin, and so I know what it's like to be lonely. So I I think I would be terrible on the desert island.

Presenter34:43

Have you any skills that'd be useful? I mean, if if you were

Presenter34:47

Built shelters.

Presenter34:49

Built small boats, done any of those useful things.

Kenneth Macmillan34:49

We never

Kenneth Macmillan34:53

No, never, never.

Presenter34:54

How do you think you'd manage?

Kenneth Macmillan34:56

I think um if I've really put my mind to it, I possibly could.

Kenneth Macmillan35:01

about build a shelter. I mean, I certainly could never build a boat, or even a raft.

Presenter35:05

Even a r

Kenneth Macmillan35:07

So I think I'd be marooned there forever.

Presenter35:09

Dunane fishing

Kenneth Macmillan35:11

I did when I was a child. I haven't since.

Presenter35:13

It'll all come back, don't worry. Your last record.

Kenneth Macmillan35:14

Don't worry. Your last record.

Kenneth Macmillan35:17

My last record is part of the El Garcello concerto played by Jacqueline Dupre. And I chose that because recently I saw on television a film about her playing this concerto in the nineteen sixties. And I think she has such courage. I think I would need courage on on the island. I think this might inspire me to have some courage.

Presenter36:40

Part of the first movement of the Elgar Cello Concerto in E minor, Jacqueline Dupre with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir John Barbie Raleigh.

Presenter36:50

If you could take just one disc out of the H you've played a switch would it be?

Kenneth Macmillan36:54

Well, I think I'd be so lonely and depressed. I think I would choose Joan Sutherland in the students' chorus,'cause it would really make me smile.

Presenter37:03

and one luxury, one object of no practical use whatever.

Kenneth Macmillan37:07

Well, when I'm working on a body I get cravings rather like a pregnant mother, and I crave chocolate. And once coming back from Amsterdam airport, I discovered Belgian chocolates called Godiver.

Kenneth Macmillan37:20

and they said they have fresh cream in them and I rushed home to my wife and I said, We have to all eat them all immediately'cause they're going to go off.

Kenneth Macmillan37:27

And that's what I would like on the island.

Presenter37:29

Yes, now we've got this business that they might go off, so we'd better have a supply arriving daily.

Kenneth Macmillan37:35

Oh, absolutely, yes. I don't know how it comes, but as long as it comes every day.

Presenter37:36

Uh

Presenter37:39

Right. And leave that to us.

Kenneth Macmillan37:41

People

Presenter37:41

And one book, The Bible and Shakespeare, being already provided.

Kenneth Macmillan37:45

Alright.

Kenneth Macmillan37:46

waffle between Margaret Lane's The Bronte sisters because I find

Kenneth Macmillan37:51

The real story of the Brant is much more interesting actually than they wrote, but I finally plumped for AE Ellis's The Rack, because again that's a story of courage and endurance. Give us the title again. The Rack.

Presenter38:04

Bye.

Kenneth Macmillan38:04

A. E. Ellis.

Presenter38:06

You shall have it. And thank you, Kenneth MacMillan, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Kenneth Macmillan38:11

Thank you. Goodbye.

Presenter38:12

Goodbye everyone.

Speaker 338:38

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.