Tom Keating

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's Archive. For rights' reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty three.

Speaker 10:11

And the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

This week our castaway is a painter.

Presenter0:34

He's also an expert restorer of pictures and something of an authority on the technique of painters of the past. It's Tom Keating.

Presenter0:43

Tom, could you adapt yourself to loneliness?

Tom Keating0:46

Of course.

Tom Keating0:48

I've lived and worked alone for many years.

Presenter0:50

Is music important in Ula

Tom Keating0:52

Boom

Presenter0:53

Important, yes. Do you play an instrument? Have you studied? You haven't kept up.

Tom Keating0:55

A mouth organet.

Tom Keating0:59

I can't, my lungs aren't allowed.

Presenter1:02

Do you think?

Tom Keating1:03

Yes, all the time.

Presenter1:05

Edward was sung in public.

Tom Keating1:06

Yes, we'll have been drunk.

Presenter1:07

What's But never on a concert

Tom Keating1:10

On the stage well, on the stage it's lamented and so on, once or twice.

Presenter1:13

What is it?

Presenter1:14

Yeah.

Tom Keating1:14

Yeah.

Presenter1:14

Do you play discs while you are painting?

Tom Keating1:17

And the radio, yes, more or less all the time.

Presenter1:20

Did you find it difficult to make a list of just eight, which is all it's impossible?

Tom Keating1:23

Well, it's impossible, isn't it? You're naughty.

Tom Keating1:27

Of course it's impossible, but uh you just grab eight order.

Presenter1:32

What's the first one you've got on that aisle?

Tom Keating1:34

I got Marla because I came to Marla many years ago, out of the blue. I think he's a.

Tom Keating1:40

A composer who was given by a God or something a little gift.

Tom Keating1:46

And it's uh obvious in parts of the music.

Tom Keating1:50

I uh paint mostly landscape to Mala.

Tom Keating1:54

and seascape.

Tom Keating1:55

I find that different musicians, different music.

Tom Keating2:00

Creates the mood to help work.

Presenter2:02

Is this one of the symphonies?

Tom Keating2:04

Yes? Which one? Symphony number one. It's very beautiful. Of course I like five and six and so on. But uh this is the one I first met.

Tom Keating2:13

Not because it's number one, but I just met.

Tom Keating2:16

many years ago.

Presenter3:17

MALDER'S FIRST SYMPONY GEORGE SHELTY conducting the London Symphony Orchestra. Tom, you're a Londoner, aren't you?

Tom Keating3:23

Yes.

Presenter3:24

And you knew hard times as a youngster.

Tom Keating3:27

Well, yes, most people of my class do.

Presenter3:29

What job did your father do?

Tom Keating3:31

He was a house painter.

Presenter3:32

And he'd been gassed in the first war effort.

Presenter3:35

There's a rather sad story. He had to give up his job because of the

Tom Keating3:38

Well, I think it's not just said, I think it's an indictment of the system that, um

Tom Keating3:44

the returning so called heroes of the first war.

Tom Keating3:48

came back and my father worked for thirty seven years.

Speaker 23:51

Yeah.

Tom Keating3:52

Very honest man, without

Tom Keating3:54

losing a day's work or pinching a penny worth of nails and so

Presenter3:57

This was for the same firm.

Tom Keating3:58

Yes. And uh the governor died and the son took over and is a bit of a fascist and he um

Tom Keating4:05

Just sacked the old boy on the spot because he was gassed and couldn't go up a ladder.

Tom Keating4:10

Uh he came home and cried. They gave him one and sixpence in wages. One and sixpence. In what's an hour's wages.

Presenter4:14

One and six

Tom Keating4:17

And uh incredibly enough, exactly the same thing happened to me, except that my lungs went in the water, and I was a bill, and the same thing happened not the same firm, but the same town. The only difference was I punched the bloke on the nose.

Presenter4:32

And you didn't guess you won on six.

Tom Keating4:34

I didn't get the one I said.

Presenter4:35

That's a frightening story though.

Presenter4:38

Now you went to local schools in South London. Did you show an early talent for drawings and paintings?

Tom Keating4:44

Yes, I've drawn since I can remember since I think I do

Tom Keating4:49

When I was five or six.

Presenter4:50

You were offered a place at St. Dunstan's College, but that wasn't possible.

Tom Keating4:54

Well, I couldn't afford the clothes actually.

Presenter4:57

What was your first job?

Tom Keating4:59

I was a lava boy.

Presenter5:00

In a barber shop.

Tom Keating5:01

Yeah, same is turner.

Tom Keating5:03

I drew the customers, same as Turner.

Tom Keating5:06

I sold the pictures the same as Tam. But I wasn't as good as Tam, of course. You were a core boy? Yes, I had fifty-six different jobs before the war. As a core boy,

Presenter5:16

Uh

Tom Keating5:16

Uh

Presenter5:16

Where?

Tom Keating5:16

Uh

Tom Keating5:17

In uh the Lewisham Hippotome first of all, then in the capital Haymarket. I was a Lift Boy and Core Boy combined and I met lots of film stars there. It's a similar place now.

Presenter5:28

Eventually, I believe you you took up your father's trade, house housepainting.

Tom Keating5:32

Is

Presenter5:33

Of a rather superior sort, because you did marbling and signposting and and

Tom Keating5:37

Well, I went to art school, you see. I broke from tradition and decided to

Presenter5:37

Uh

Tom Keating5:41

Try to be a painter.

Tom Keating5:44

They wouldn't allow that. It's a very strict regime in those days, of course. And I went to the Cambridge School of Art and Croydon School of Art in the evenings.

Tom Keating5:52

And I learned marble engraving, sign writing, and illumination illumination, of course, uh the way that monks used to do the old illuminations, which is calligraphy.

Tom Keating6:02

I had the good fortune to meet a wonderful artist named uh Edward Johnson, who revolutionized the whole of script writing in London.

Tom Keating6:12

and he taught me copper plate writing and all this the quill cutting and so forth. So I'm an expert on calligraphy. And I earned a living partly doing um law things for lawyers for a guinea a time.

Presenter6:26

Well then of course the second war came along. Before we talk about that let's have your second record.

Tom Keating6:31

That's Hutch singing uh When Love Walked In. There's no uh serious business about this, except I met him and he was a very kind man.

Presenter6:40

Was that when you were a cold boy?

Tom Keating6:41

Yeah, and uh he gave me five Bob.

Speaker 26:44

One look and I had upon my future at last. One look.

Speaker 16:53

Wha

Speaker 26:55

And I had found a world completely new.

Speaker 16:56

I had paws.

Speaker 27:03

When loved walking

Speaker 17:05

Okay.

Presenter7:15

Hutch singing Love Walked In

Presenter7:18

Now the Second War.

Presenter7:20

You opted for the Royal Navy.

Tom Keating7:21

Yeah.

Presenter7:22

and I believe you were at Dunkirk.

Presenter7:24

And then?

Tom Keating7:25

Well, it's a bit of a shambles.

Tom Keating7:27

And they shoved us off to Singapore. I was a stoker second class.

Presenter7:32

Yeah.

Tom Keating7:33

And I did a year on um

Tom Keating7:36

A destroyer mine laying.

Presenter7:38

You were in trouble at one point when you were in the destroyer for having some rather serious books in your locker.

Tom Keating7:44

I hated the Navy. Um the reason is I tried to educate I'm still trying to educate myself. I had Des Capital, the History of the Italian Renaissance, the Bible.

Tom Keating7:56

Mein Kampf, Ruskin's modern paint doesn't matter to us.

Tom Keating8:01

I used to alternate reading and the officer of the watch caught me reading Das Capito and accused me of being a communist and one word led to another. I got fourteen days, you know, punishment, and the day I finished that I got another fourteen and so on. So I spent most of my time in the tiller flat or scrubbing the stokehold deck with wire brush. But the culmination was very beautiful because I saw on my first day on the shore

Tom Keating8:31

Charlie Lawton and the Mutiny on the Bounty, he said.

Tom Keating8:35

And I came up off watch one day and this is absolutely the skipper was being pulled to a desert island.

Tom Keating8:42

in the cutter, and'cause she shout in the stoke hold'cause of the noise, you see. I came up soaked with sweat and we were allowed to wash with sea water.

Tom Keating8:52

I was pulling in this bucket of sea water washing, and I said to the bloke next to me,'Cast me adrift in an open boat, would you, mister Grishan?' To my horror,'cause of the water carries, and my voice was shouting.

Tom Keating9:05

The skipper heard me, and that cost me another forty.

Presenter9:08

Uh

Tom Keating9:08

I haven't got much sense of humour this place. They're not all bad.

Presenter9:13

Then the Japanese invasion, that was a very bad time.

Tom Keating9:17

That was yeah, a bit naughty. Um it was a thing that has never been fully explained, and this is not the time to do that recrimination, but it was an absolute shambles and um one saw horror unspeakable, like Dentist Inferno.

Tom Keating9:33

the panic and the desperate times and

Tom Keating9:37

I escaped with seven Malays in a boat.

Tom Keating9:40

Um, we got to Java eventually in my head, I think

Tom Keating9:43

Eleven Weeks in the Jungle

Tom Keating9:47

Then we had a

Tom Keating9:48

a very an epic voyage actually. It was on a raft and we had a rough time, you know. And I had a I think two years in the North Atlantic Russian convoys and

Tom Keating9:59

We got torpedoed and I got chucked out.

Presenter10:01

Yes, and back in Sevi Street you were in a pretty poor state.

Tom Keating10:05

Yeah.

Presenter10:06

Let's break for another record. What next?

Tom Keating10:08

I'd like Richard Talbot, please, because I've met him.

Tom Keating10:11

in the war, a lovely man, and in Lewisham and um he recognised me sh he shouted to me in the audience as a doodle bug was going over.

Tom Keating10:21

And they used to go on and I was very pleased that he had the courage to continue singing.

Tom Keating10:27

through this. It's a very unnerving experience of course.

Tom Keating10:31

And he spoke to me after, and I told him I liked his work and that

Tom Keating10:35

And I've always had a soft spo, it's a very good singer, you know.

Tom Keating10:38

German Leider songs and circles.

Tom Keating10:41

And this particular song I heard him sing

Tom Keating10:44

In the war.

Tom Keating10:45

And it has a kind of lovely memory.

Speaker 210:48

Finding your love, I found my adventure. Touching your hand, my heart beat faster. All that I want in all of this world is you, you the promised kiss of springtime that make the lonely winter seem long.

Tom Keating10:53

OG

Speaker 110:53

Uh

Speaker 110:57

Uh

Speaker 110:58

Or that

Presenter11:18

Richard Tauber, All the Things You Are.

Presenter11:21

Now, you were in rather poor state after your

Presenter11:25

War Service. You were married by now, were you?

Tom Keating11:27

Yeah.

Presenter11:28

Were you well enough to go back to house painting?

Tom Keating11:30

No, I had to do light work.

Presenter11:33

Now all the time you'd been working at your drawing and painting whenever you

Tom Keating11:37

Yeah.

Presenter11:37

Good. Were you going seriously to try and take art training now?

Tom Keating11:41

Yes, of course. I'd do it now if I could land somewhere.

Presenter11:44

Yeah.

Presenter11:45

Where did you go?

Tom Keating11:46

I went and after the war on an ex-service grant to Goldsmiths College.

Presenter11:51

Full time.

Tom Keating11:52

Yes, that's full time.

Presenter11:53

You had an eventful sketching trip in the Pyrenees.

Tom Keating11:57

Yes, I went out with a fellow artist, is very well known.

Tom Keating12:01

and he had a commission to paint Pablo Casar's cellis.

Presenter12:04

Cellist. What's the name of your companion?

Tom Keating12:06

Clifford Frith is in Australia at the moment living it up.

Tom Keating12:09

Nice bloke.

Tom Keating12:11

And he couldn't get an interview with Pablo and I said, I can't hang about, I've got to get a living I went out landscape painting.

Tom Keating12:17

and forgot to take water.

Tom Keating12:19

And this little man came along, and said in English, you know, Are you happy or whatever?

Tom Keating12:24

And I liked him. He's lovely man to look at. Honest face. And uh

Tom Keating12:30

I was amazed he spoke English, and he says, Don't stop painting, just put the white horse over there, you know, very dominant man. Uh

Speaker 212:37

Yeah.

Tom Keating12:38

I thought a bit of a cheek, you know, but anyway.

Speaker 212:39

But anyway.

Tom Keating12:40

So he sent me down wine and water and bread and cheese and a card in a basket with waiter on a push bike.

Tom Keating12:47

to go to his chateau that night.

Tom Keating12:51

And the whole of the hotel I was living in normally are a bit snobbish, these old musicians and very posh and that they wouldn't

Presenter12:57

This was during the test toilet.

Tom Keating12:58

Yes, pard, parad, parad.

Presenter13:00

Yes.

Tom Keating13:01

And um they couldn't get an interview with him. He was very anti-Francois, you know.

Tom Keating13:07

So I went up there and uh took a look at the mm-hmm.

Presenter13:09

So this was Casselves, you'd be listening to

Tom Keating13:11

Yeah.

Tom Keating13:12

I want to

Tom Keating13:14

place and I said my friend

Tom Keating13:16

Once the pincher is poor bloke is not quite true, but anyway.

Tom Keating13:21

Um I was a bit embarrassed'cause I can't read a note of music, which I'm in a way ashamed of, but you can't do everything.

Tom Keating13:28

But he played for me, you see. He makes you cry, made you cry, made you laugh with the cello. It's fantastic.

Tom Keating13:35

And of course he paid the Vorj and then uh I went up with Clifford next night, I think it was, and uh we got a bit squiffy and the Governor didn't like sitting about not working. I'm similar myself, I hate wasting time and um

Tom Keating13:49

He said, Come on, let's all work So we drew him and he said, Get the cello and I went and got it and gave it to him, he said. And not realizing, of course it's like a Stradivarius or something, but there's no good being Namby Pamby, you know, with whatever you handle.

Tom Keating14:04

And he said to me, Sing the song of your people, you know, which is a bit amazing, isn't it?

Tom Keating14:09

And I couldn't think of it. As I sang down the road away went Polly with the step so jolly and he played it on variation with bark and so.

Tom Keating14:18

Absolutely fantastic. But the sad thing i in a way he called me little comrade.

Tom Keating14:26

which I was honoured to accept this uh as a name, but um

Tom Keating14:30

As we left and he kissed me and he said, When you see Mr Attlee I mean, I'd never seen Attlee in my life and have a cup of tea with him I don't know where he got this impression from.

Speaker 114:39

I don't know where it goes.

Tom Keating14:42

Uh tell him that I won't play outside of Spain till Franco's off the Spanish throne, you see.

Tom Keating14:49

And the amazing thing was that he'd been offered a quarter of a million dollars to play one half of what he played to us for nothing, you know.

Tom Keating14:57

and refused it. Uh he kept fourteen refugees in the village, you know, of his own money. He's extremely wonderful. I wrote to him for many years. He got married again and it all faded out, you know.

Presenter15:11

Now you were back in London. It wasn't long before you were offered an exhibition in the West End.

Tom Keating15:17

Yeah.

Tom Keating15:18

The same journey I did forty, fifty drawings.

Tom Keating15:22

They got mixed up in Clifford's work.

Tom Keating15:24

And it's a sadness in my heart that, um

Tom Keating15:28

I helped him to go at the Wildenstein galleries in Bond Street, I carried his stuff in.

Tom Keating15:34

They had an annual exhibition there. And I went off into the next room and I saw some beautiful painting well, I call it beautiful'cause it's academic and um it was Annie Gonu's work.

Presenter15:44

Yeah.

Tom Keating15:45

And um Colonel Beddington was director of Wildenstein and I heard him say to Clifford, At last you've learned to draw and he I'm ashamed to say it in one way, and glad in another way, because Clifford was one of my teachers at Goldsmith.

Tom Keating15:58

And he said this is a

Tom Keating15:59

Not my book, it's his, and he thought, stupid man, that I'd put it I don't do things like that.

Tom Keating16:05

and he offered me an exhibition with Anigone was unknown then, you see.

Tom Keating16:10

but I had to have them framed and the cost was, I think, four hundred guineas. I didn't have four barbers and other so I lost a friend and I lost the exhibition for the sake of money. Incidentally, Annie Gone has written to me since all this.

Presenter16:24

Yes.

Tom Keating16:24

Very nice letter. He's a nice man too.

Presenter16:28

Now you had at that time already considerable talent, but you failed to get your diploma at the end of your course. Looking back, why do you think that was?

Tom Keating16:37

There's several reasons, but the the reason is mainly was that at the penultimate year I was there, they discovered that I hadn't got school certificate, you see.

Presenter16:48

And that

Tom Keating16:48

Made a difference? Oh yes, you're not allowed in university without A levels, O levels, school certificate or whatever.

Tom Keating16:55

And I didn't have them.

Tom Keating16:57

Although I was the senior student for two years, the Ministry of Education came down like a ton of bricks and said they've got to get rid of me. Uh my own theory about this is different.

Tom Keating17:08

I'm a bit left wing, you know, I think most hearty people are, we're quite harmless if you don't thump us, you know.

Tom Keating17:15

We don't want to create a revolution.

Tom Keating17:17

But the authorities insisted that I took five O levels. I took four other subjects and the art, of course, so I didn't have the temerity to

Tom Keating17:28

Go in for a hopefully loss.

Tom Keating17:31

But I got O level in art and then I tried I think mathematics, geography or whatever.

Tom Keating17:37

And I was doing fourteen subjects and earning a living to keep my family and it's all too much. I c I physically although I work and could work eighteen hours a day, seven days a week, there is a limit, you see. Your brain ceases to function and

Tom Keating17:52

So I felt, but the tragedy is, in my opinion, it's not just money or anything.

Tom Keating17:58

They denied me the chance to teach for thirty years.

Tom Keating18:01

This is why I'm doing television now too.

Tom Keating18:04

Make up for lost time, I like teaching.

Presenter18:06

You can't teach without a diploma.

Tom Keating18:08

Yeah.

Tom Keating18:10

No, I I got a job uh in a private school, that's all you can do, for eight pounds a week and I couldn't live on it.

Presenter18:17

Yeah.

Presenter18:18

Well, let's have your fourth record. What's that?

Tom Keating18:20

Pablo Casal is playing the Vorjak cello concerto, it's very beautiful.

Presenter18:25

And this is a work that he gave you a private performance of.

Tom Keating18:28

The Arsenal was very honoured to receive it.

Presenter19:32

Part of the first movement of the Vorschak cello concerto.

Presenter19:36

Casals with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by George Zell.

Presenter19:41

So, after leaving the college, what did you do? There was a character called Frippy who came into your life.

Tom Keating19:48

It's lovely. Uh

Presenter19:50

Uh

Tom Keating19:50

Uh

Presenter19:50

Um

Tom Keating19:50

Uh

Presenter19:50

BACK

Presenter19:51

Tell us about Frippy.

Tom Keating19:53

Well, it's sad. He was a wonderful man in a way. He was a tough old blue dealer.

Tom Keating19:59

He got me into dealing in the West End and he is a bit naughty. I I g don't want to go into it because he's got, you know, descendants in there. But he had a fantastic collection of paintings. All genuine, I hasten to add. Well, a few a bit, you know, dodgy, but anyway.

Tom Keating20:17

And I had a row with him because he hated parting with physically with cash. He'd give you something worth a thousand pounds, but it won you know it for a job.

Tom Keating20:25

And he paid me one day with a vase, a pair of Japanese vases, which incidentally probably worth a lot of money now. I gave them away, but anyway.

Tom Keating20:32

instead of the twelve guinas for a job, and I had a row with him about this. And I said, My children don't eat Japanese vases to and uh I said, Anyway, you've got a lot of old Sexton Blakes here, and he's very angry and he showed me five drawings in a Bible.

Tom Keating20:49

Of Raphael and Michelangelo and Leonardo that were pinched many years ago at the Royal Collection. It's a long story.

Presenter20:56

Genuine one.

Tom Keating20:56

Yes, yes, absolutely. By Sir Peter Layley. He copied them, put his in the

Tom Keating21:02

He left them and they came down through uh miniature painters and so on. And old Fripp he recognized these and pinched them, you see, to be brutal about it. He told me the story, it's been out.

Tom Keating21:14

Because

Tom Keating21:15

Of his love, absolute love of art, you see, I knew some people do anything.

Presenter21:20

You used uh an expression doesn't know that probably needs a little explaining. You you you talked about sex and blacks.

Tom Keating21:26

Yes, well it's a kind of a fun term for faking, I mean, you know. Yeah.

Presenter21:30

It's been done for centuries.

Tom Keating21:30

It's been done for centuries. It's been done for thousands of years, of course.

Presenter21:35

You found, Tom, that you had a a great facility for for pastiche, for painting in the style of celebrated painters. And it it amused you just to to copy the technique of the artist.

Tom Keating21:46

Well you learn from that.

Presenter21:47

Yeah.

Presenter21:48

And you also you like to present the pictures correctly. The frame had to be right. The backing had to be the right date. Some artificial foxing perhaps. A written note stuck on the back of a name or a date or a

Tom Keating21:54

Yeah.

Tom Keating22:00

Tools

Presenter22:01

Place or something. Sex and blade.

Tom Keating22:04

Yeah.

Tom Keating22:05

Well, it's a skylark, isn't it?

Presenter22:07

Yeah.

Tom Keating22:07

Well I thought it possible, but I don't think so much.

Presenter22:08

But

Speaker 222:08

Uh

Presenter22:08

I don't think so.

Presenter22:10

Sometimes you incorporated a giveaway, I mean a rude word which would show up under your

Tom Keating22:15

I'm not going to repeat that on this.

Presenter22:17

No, you you needn't repeat the word, but or you'll put a section in modern acrylic paint. Some deliberate mistake.

Tom Keating22:21

A deliberate mistake.

Presenter22:24

Now how many of these these exercises, these um pastiche, these sexton blakes have you painted, do you think?

Tom Keating22:31

I don't honestly know, it runs into thousands. Yes, of course. I'm very prolific even now.

Tom Keating22:37

They're not major works of art. Good gracious, some are little sketches.

Tom Keating22:45

Uh about seven I sold to art dealers when they came round for their restoration work, which was on the

Tom Keating22:52

Hazel

Tom Keating22:53

And my sextants would be on the wall and they'd say, Good God, there's a Kragoff or whatever they thought it was and I said, Well, have another look, mate.

Tom Keating23:01

He said, Cracker, his paint was still wet He said, Who did that? and I said, Well, Krieghoff, I've just you know, all this And I sold them for very reason well, the kind of prices one would get for an ordinary painting.

Speaker 123:05

And I see that.

Presenter23:13

Yeah.

Tom Keating23:13

A bit more sometimes if there's a lot of work.

Presenter23:15

And the rest of'em just got dispersed. I mean those thousands are still floating about somewhere.

Tom Keating23:19

There's there's a lot of big houses, uh I mean uh art uh galleries that still have them in the basement apparently.

Tom Keating23:28

Yeah.

Presenter23:28

Now, were you developing a style of your own? Were you painting to please yourself?

Tom Keating23:33

Yes.

Presenter23:33

But whatever happened, you kept that up.

Tom Keating23:35

I well always, of course I

Tom Keating23:38

Hope to.

Presenter23:38

You spent uh several interesting years in Scotland. What took you up there in the first place?

Tom Keating23:43

Well my marriage broke up and I wanted to get out of the country a bit.

Tom Keating23:48

And I was offered a commission to restore a collection, which I had not done before.

Tom Keating23:54

Very famous house, castle.

Tom Keating23:57

I was there five months, literally living like a lord.

Tom Keating24:02

It's okay. Bit boring.

Tom Keating24:04

Uh I did a lot of painting there, painted their portraits and stuff. Then of course I got recommended because you exhaust the work and I got recommended.

Presenter24:13

Two other castles.

Tom Keating24:14

Yeah, so I I think eight castles.

Presenter24:16

So

Tom Keating24:16

The m

Presenter24:17

All of the muse head home.

Tom Keating24:17

All of them, from my knowledge, yes.

Tom Keating24:21

I didn't believe in ghosts till I went up.

Presenter24:21

But uh

Presenter24:23

You have psychic gifts yourself. I mean, you

Presenter24:25

You you've said that when you've been painting in the style of certain long gone painters,

Presenter24:30

You sought guidance.

Tom Keating24:33

Not all the time. It's very rare actually, once in two years or three years or

Presenter24:34

Yeah.

Presenter24:38

Uh

Tom Keating24:38

Twice a week, you can't tell. It's when you're very tired. In the case of witch painters.

Presenter24:39

That's when you're voting

Tom Keating24:43

Many.

Tom Keating24:44

I don't like to really go on about this, but

Tom Keating24:47

Van Gogh, Vincent. Um

Tom Keating24:50

It came to me in Kew in nineteen sixty one, just after I'd finished Morborough House.

Presenter24:56

You were living in Kew.

Tom Keating24:57

Yes, in l alone, it's very

Tom Keating25:00

run down from the exhaustion of the work and a lot of dramas going on.

Tom Keating25:05

And I woke up one morning and found a Vincent on the ears, or self-portrait of Vincent. Sounds mad to say it's a self-portrait if I've painted it, but

Presenter25:13

Um

Tom Keating25:13

Uh Van Gogh. Yes, and tortured, and another one, another one, another one.

Presenter25:18

And you didn't remember how to do it.

Tom Keating25:19

No, no, no, I didn't. It frightened the life out of I think eighty one paintings in succession.

Tom Keating25:25

which sent me I'm not making excuse on the booze actually. I I just started drinking I never told her.

Presenter25:31

A kind of compulsion to paint these pictures. You didn't know you would have

Tom Keating25:32

Paint.

Tom Keating25:34

You didn't know you were doing it.

Presenter25:34

Yeah.

Tom Keating25:34

It does, I beg of you to believe me, it does happen. I've had lots of letters from people with music and whatever.

Tom Keating25:41

It does happen.

Presenter25:43

Let's have your fifth record. What's that feel?

Tom Keating25:45

Uh, dear old Schubert

Tom Keating25:48

Send for this?

Presenter25:50

The unfinished.

Tom Keating25:53

There's something nice about unfinished work.

Presenter26:55

The opening of Schulbert's Unfinished Symphony, number eight

Presenter26:59

The Piano Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Carl Bohm.

Presenter27:03

A few years ago, Tom, you developed a passion for the work of Samuel Palmer.

Presenter27:08

And in tribute you did some Sexton Blakes of Samuel Palmer.

Tom Keating27:12

Yes, but I'm in a time.

Tom Keating27:14

Them of many painters. It it just so happened that the kind of thing that was put over as his work hit the headlines, it could have been one of half a dozen.

Presenter27:25

Well, it was very unfortunate that a girlfriend of yours sold some of them to a dealer.

Tom Keating27:27

Hello.

Tom Keating27:30

in a way it was, but I mean

Tom Keating27:33

My fault I shouldn't have done them, but the second thing is that she didn't actually

Tom Keating27:38

sell them in that way. You see, it's my fault. I was burning them all, although I'm they untidy but like you have to have a clean up now, a blitz, you know, in the studio.

Tom Keating27:49

And especially with restoring you have to be clean. And I had a blitz and I was burning all these drawings of mine.

Tom Keating27:56

trunkfuls of them, because we were moving to Teneriff.

Tom Keating28:00

Because my lungs had gone, and she came back and battled me for burning the work.

Tom Keating28:05

She wasn't.

Tom Keating28:07

as efficient as a painter.

Tom Keating28:09

And she said I should be ashamed to burn it, you know, someone would like it on the wall. I said, Well, give it away to someone. I can't be

Tom Keating28:16

I said, one word later. I said, put it in a local auction and of course, obviously, if you wanted to make lots of money, you'd put it in London auction.

Tom Keating28:24

And the first town nearby, Woodbridge, and she put it in this little auction. A lot of stuff. I don't know, twenty or thirty drawings. I don't know.

Tom Keating28:32

And they said it was what it wa it wasn't signed or anything. They said that this stuff was whoever it was.

Tom Keating28:39

And they went potty in London because they're very greedy these blokes, you see. They all tore down and paid a ridiculous price of nine thousand quid or something.

Speaker 128:42

Breathe

Speaker 228:42

B

Tom Keating28:48

They'd have come out rather good at for twelve and six. But you know.

Tom Keating28:53

It's very dangerous to talk like this'cause of the court case and all that, but it was the dealers that got in touch with her for more, you see. I've got to be honest with Jane.

Speaker 229:00

Okay.

Speaker 129:00

Yeah.

Tom Keating29:02

And of course what transpired then is entirely in Marla's history that she naturally sold them. But they knew what they were buying.

Speaker 229:10

Sold them, but they knew what

Tom Keating29:12

It was only when they got found out

Speaker 229:12

Yeah.

Presenter29:13

Ruin

Speaker 229:13

Yeah.

Tom Keating29:16

You know, uh they're naughty.

Presenter29:19

till the sale room correspondent of the Times became

Tom Keating29:22

Joey.

Tom Keating29:27

Well, with respect to Jordan, Luke doesn't need any ex

Tom Keating29:32

I'm not being modest.

Tom Keating29:34

Very few of the things I've ever done would passes.

Tom Keating29:38

Yes. The things I do under inspiration would pass. That's a different thing. I destroy them or whatever.

Presenter29:39

The f

Presenter29:42

Well, there was a lot of notoriety. Books were written about you, one by the lady from the Times incident. So with one thing and another, you found yourself in the dock of the old baby.

Tom Keating29:49

Select.

Presenter29:55

The charge was what? Deception and conspiracy.

Tom Keating29:58

Is that what they call it? Yeah. Okay.

Presenter30:00

Well rather fortunately it was dropped anyway, but uh

Presenter30:03

It made a change in your life, which we'll talk about in a minute. In the meantime, let's have record number six.

Tom Keating30:08

Okay. There's dear old Bing, lovely man. This he reminds me of the thirties, the Depression, and this Black Moonlight is, I'm told, the story of a black man who's gone to commit suicide in the despair in America of the thirties and

Tom Keating30:27

You know, I like the underdog, I like the spec cord, it's good music.

Speaker 230:31

Will it spread on to the starlight, the sunlight, and darken the promise of dawn?

Speaker 230:47

I've lost all power to resist you.

Speaker 230:52

Madly I awake you, even though I hate you.

Presenter31:02

Bing Crosby, Black Moonlight.

Presenter31:04

Now all that shenanigans vast amount of publicity, not particularly good publicity, but nevertheless valuable publicity.

Presenter31:11

It must have raised the value enormously of a Tom Keating picture.

Tom Keating31:15

Too much.

Tom Keating31:16

Some work I do isn't worth tuppence, and some work I do is worth quite a lot because I put a lot into it.

Tom Keating31:23

One of the easiest things for a person like me is drawing. You know, one is a draftsman, of course.

Tom Keating31:28

It's easier to draw than paint.

Tom Keating31:30

So I can do a little head of Renoirish, if you like, or and get fifteen hundred pounds for it easily, and three or four thousand pounds, and I refuse to do this. You might think I'm a bit potty.

Tom Keating31:44

I should do it, but I don't know. I don't want to do it. I I'd sooner give them away. I'm afraid I'll get into a lot of trouble'cause I get letters by the million. But, um

Tom Keating31:55

When I work, when I turn seriously on a landscape or figure composition or something, I expect to be paid for it, you know.

Tom Keating32:03

I'm now gradually getting a little confident that I can paint a bit.

Tom Keating32:09

And that's not that I'm good, it's'cause all the other blokes is a bloody awful to be on it.

Presenter32:13

Yeah.

Tom Keating32:14

Gogen

Presenter32:16

You've just done a television series on Channel 4 about the techniques of the masters.

Tom Keating32:21

Yeah.

Presenter32:21

You enjoy that?

Tom Keating32:22

Very much guys.

Presenter32:23

And

Tom Keating32:23

And you like working with young people.

Presenter32:25

And you got an exhibition at the Barbican of the Paintings you've done for that series.

Tom Keating32:30

Are you still painting hard? Seven days a week.

Tom Keating32:33

Except today.

Presenter32:35

Except we're giving you a day off today.

Tom Keating32:35

So we're giving you a day off today.

Presenter32:38

One thing that's come out of it all i i is a fair amount of discouragement among the public about art. It's brought out the rather bad state of the art trade, the amount of wrong attributions there are.

Speaker 132:51

Grass.

Presenter32:51

Yes.

Presenter32:53

Deliberate intention to deceive.

Tom Keating32:55

Receive

Presenter32:56

I is it true that you can get a picture authenticated?

Presenter33:00

In most cases, if you're prepared to pay enough

Tom Keating33:02

Yeah.

Tom Keating33:03

Unfortunately, yes.

Tom Keating33:05

Yes. This should be in my opinion um

Tom Keating33:09

A body set up by the government.

Tom Keating33:12

It's very difficult.

Tom Keating33:13

But, you know, even I that knows a few things, I mean, you're not infallible. I wrote a twelve-point thing.

Tom Keating33:21

How to tell a a Sexton Blake from an original kind of thing. I mean, the obvious thing, I beg you to believe it's so simple why they don't do it, is to put it next to originals, you know.

Speaker 233:31

Yeah

Tom Keating33:31

Immediately it will scream out I am false yes.

Tom Keating33:36

Immediately, to anyone who can see it,

Tom Keating33:39

I mean, I've tried.

Tom Keating33:41

I beg you to believe me, I've tried not to fake, I mean, I've tried to emulate the Masters myself. More or less knowing all their secrets. A few to learn, obviously, now I'm old, but um

Tom Keating33:52

not with their materials necessarily, but

Tom Keating33:56

Certainly with their love and um

Tom Keating33:59

You can't do it, and the reason you can't do it is between the moment you put your brush on the palette, onto the canvas or panel.

Tom Keating34:09

something happens, a kind of

Tom Keating34:11

magical bit you can't fake. Because I haven't got what this man had for breakfast, his wife, his environment, you know, you know, the physical things of his life that make up the psychological and the metaphysical.

Tom Keating34:25

You can't fake that kind of thing.

Presenter34:28

You can't fake Geek.

Presenter34:31

What's your seventh record?

Tom Keating34:33

Yeah.

Presenter34:33

Sibelius

Tom Keating34:34

Number two: I play this when I'm making landscapes, genuine ones I mean.

Presenter35:33

The opening of the second Sibelia Symphony in D, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter35:41

Now Tom, you've spent time in the tropics during your wartime experiences. Did you pick up enough useful information to enable you to live in reasonable comfort on a desert island?

Tom Keating35:52

Yeah, that's a dog.

Presenter35:53

Yeah.

Tom Keating35:53

Yeah.

Presenter35:53

You could build a shelter.

Presenter35:56

And you can fish.

Tom Keating35:58

Yes.

Tom Keating35:59

I wouldn't. I don't like killing.

Presenter36:01

Who can cultivate?

Tom Keating36:02

Yes.

Tom Keating36:03

Would you try to escape?

Tom Keating36:05

No, but to come back to the slot.

Presenter36:11

Your last record.

Tom Keating36:12

Sashma, you dead man.

Tom Keating36:15

Louis Armstrong.

Speaker 236:17

I can't give you anything but love Baby.

Speaker 236:27

That's the only thing

Speaker 236:31

I plenty of

Speaker 236:35

Baby

Speaker 236:38

Dream of Wild, Scape M'Wild.

Presenter36:43

Louis Armstrong and the All-Stars. If you could take only one disc of the HU Play Dostorm, which would it be?

Tom Keating36:50

Sibelius

Presenter36:51

The Sebalius Symphony the Second, wasn't it?

Tom Keating36:52

Yeah.

Tom Keating36:53

PR

Presenter36:54

And one luxury to take with you to the island.

Tom Keating36:57

A mattock.

Presenter36:58

That shook.

Tom Keating36:58

Do

Presenter36:59

Isn't there? A mattock. That's a a cultivating tool, isn't it? Yes, a matic. Oh, but that's not a luxury, that's useful.

Tom Keating37:01

Yeah.

Tom Keating37:04

Well, I mean, I need someone to dig trenches for you know what and stuff. You've got to keep clean.

Presenter37:09

Yes.

Tom Keating37:10

And protect yourself with it. And carve with it the rocks and things and wood. Use it as an eds.

Presenter37:16

As an artist too, you shall have a matter. All right.

Tom Keating37:18

Plevomatic.

Presenter37:20

and one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare which are already provided.

Tom Keating37:24

Vassari's Lives of the Painters Giorgio Vassari

Presenter37:27

Giusario Lives of the Painters.

Tom Keating37:29

Yeah.

Presenter37:29

Right. And thank you, Tom Keating, for letting us hear your Desert Island Disc.

Tom Keating37:35

Thank you very much for it.

Presenter37:36

Goodbye everyone.

Speaker 138:02

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.