Sir William Walton

Sir William Walton0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Sir William Walton0:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty two, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

On our desert island this week is the celebrated English composer Sir William Walton.

Presenter0:36

How good would you be at uh enduring loneliness? For most of your life you seem to have lived away from cities and crowds. Yes, I think I wouldn't be too bad, actually, once I got used to having no Robinson Crusoe. Now you've got eight records, and that's all.

Presenter0:53

Did you find them very difficult to choose? Not really, no.

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I mean, I thought of things from my childhood, you know, I thought, what have I sung that day?

Presenter1:05

So I chose this one by SS West then. What's it called? The Wilderness. Yes, of course, you were originally in your father's choir in the church. That was in Oldham. That was in Oldham. I sang it there.

Speaker 41:14

In the church.

Speaker 41:45

And the soul

Speaker 42:00

And the soul.

Speaker 42:09

I'll see you.

Presenter2:19

The Closing Passage of The Wilderness by SS Wesley, sung by the choir of Saint John's College, Cambridge, directed by George Guest.

Presenter2:28

Do you have a big collection of records, William? Well, fairly big, yes. But I don't seem to play them very often.

Presenter2:35

Just I handle the dust.

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But they are somewhere about I know where they are.

Presenter2:42

Going back to Oldham in Lancashire, your childhood, both your parents were singers, weren't they? They were, yeah, yeah. And you went to the choir school of Christ Church College, Oxford. How did that come about?

Presenter2:55

Through my father seeing an advertisement in the Manchester Guardian or some as simple as that. Yeah, simple and saying I better have a try at it. How old were you?

Presenter3:06

About nine, ten, and I've forgotten. And of course, you had to audition. Did you find that very frightening? Well, the questions they asked me, I'd never done anything of the kind, single middle note of five, you know, and that kind of thing. Yes. That's rather surprising. But I did it. Well, you were accepted, and of course, you must have felt rather a long way from Oldham. You had a Lancashire accent in those days. Were you teased for that? Oh, yes. My first term was absolute hell from that reason.

Presenter3:36

Were you made a soloist fairly quickly? Well, not fairly quickly, really. I mean, two or three terms, I think.

Presenter3:43

And I sang in that Wesley just heard uh great phenomenon.

Sir William Walton3:48

They will advantage.

Presenter3:52

I happen to have sung practically all the anthems they had.

Presenter3:57

You began to compose as a youngster, didn't you? Well, I was about

Presenter4:01

Fourteen. Hm. Rather late actioner. Late to start composing, do you know? I mean, yes, others, you know.

Sir William Walton4:06

Yeah.

Speaker 44:06

Yeah.

Sir William Walton4:06

Hold on.

Presenter4:08

Generally on their mother's knee.

Presenter4:12

You were allowed to stay on for a while after your voice broke. Yes, but they didn't know what to do with me quite. And as Dean Strong was a great dean of Christ Church, was a great man for encouraging any talent there was about.

Presenter4:29

He encouraged me. And after your extra year, or however long you were allowed to stay on there, you went into the college itself as a very young undergraduate.

Sir William Walton4:36

Joe.

Sir William Walton4:37

As a very young undergraduate.

Presenter4:39

So virtually you went straight from prep school to university? Yeah, well, yes. I had no uh intermediates, a sort of public school business. Mhm. Thank God, I think, probably.

Presenter4:51

And you read music, of course. Did you get your Muz back?

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I didn't I failed in composition. Oh, no.

Presenter5:01

You sailed through all the rest. Yes. Sailed through all the rest.

Sir William Walton5:03

Same

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Ha ha ha.

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Let's have your second record.

Presenter5:08

That is Bahn Bohm playing Mozart A major. Why do you choose this one? Has it any particular significance or story for you? No. It's just a piece I happen to like very much.

Sir William Walton5:16

No.

Presenter6:17

Part of the first movement of the Mozart Piano Concerto in A major, number twenty three, K four eight eight,

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The English Chamber Orchestra with Daniel Baremboim.

Presenter6:28

So, Sir William, you were sent down from Oxford because your compositions were no good. What happened to you then?

Presenter6:36

Well, I was luckily made great friends with Sasha Sittle. He was at Bail at the time. Oxford in very quickly, because if you can get ain't

Presenter6:46

The university got out of the army, so to speak, so to say popular.

Sir William Walton6:49

Yeah.

Speaker 46:49

Yeah.

Sir William Walton6:49

Yeah.

Presenter6:51

Because everyone wanted to get out of the army. Whatever else they wanted to do, they wanted to get out of the army.

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So it was full of uh interesting people like um Sasha Geactons and all that.

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I made friends with lots of'em. So you were in the in the attic of of the Sitzwell's house? Yes.

Presenter7:15

Now, despite the thumbs down of Oxford, you were determined to be a composer. Well, it was the only thing I could do, actually, satisfactory.

Presenter7:25

Had you had any instrumental training?

Presenter7:31

Not much luck. And you had a work played at the Salzburg Festival almost at once.

Presenter7:36

Well, that was a a string quartet which I'd been working on for years. A horrible piece that consisted of sort of snatches of Schoenberg and Berg and Bartock and all the bees, in fact. It's never been revived. It's one you would prefer to forget. I have got a copy.

Sir William Walton7:54

Yeah.

Speaker 47:54

You prefer to forget.

Speaker 47:57

Yeah.

Presenter7:58

It has never been shown to anybody.

Presenter8:01

And shortly afterwards came that celebrated event, facade. That was first performed quietly in the Sitwell House, wasn't it? That was done not so quietly either, really.

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Well because they're the audience was invited.

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He was quite noisy about it.

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Even then. Settings of Veda Thirtwell's poems. And then, of course, it was transferred, as it were.

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To the Aeolian Hall. Now that was particularly noisy. That was very noisy, yes, indeed.

Presenter8:33

Why was that? I mean, was it engineered in any way or was it. No, it wasn't engineered, but.

Sir William Walton8:36

What's your legendary?

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They weren't very popular, the citrils, even in those days.

Presenter8:42

I think Osbutt went out of his way to be rather unpopular. I needed

Presenter8:48

The only one who was sort of really tame and quiet was Sasha, yes, and rather resented all that.

Presenter8:56

And Edith was reciting through some kind of funnel through the curtains, wasn't she?

Sir William Walton8:58

So kind of funnel through the curtains, wasn't it?

Presenter9:02

Now, of course, the facade pieces have become exceedingly popular. Yes. I mean, you've done very well on them through the years.

Sir William Walton9:09

Yeah.

Presenter9:10

So is she, I think. And shortly after that, there was a composition in three movements of which you dedicated a movement each to the three situations. I suppose your oratorio, Belshazzar's Feast, was was your real breakthrough? That was the real breakthrough. Is it true that uh some of the choristers threatened to quit because they found the music too difficult? Well, I was told at the time, so then I had been told lately that it was quite untrue. They all sang it sight.

Presenter9:42

Yeah, well it was rather a complimentary thing to say to you.

Sir William Walton9:44

thing to say to you.

Presenter9:46

What are we going to hear next?

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Oh, the Folk from Facade. Yes, it's one of three poems that I turned into songs. They weren't very successful because

Presenter9:58

Everybody found very difficult.

Presenter10:01

The only person who could sing her name is Kirite Kanawa. Oh, she's a delightful singer. I'm looking forward to hearing those.

Presenter10:09

She is the only girl I've heard who could get anywhere near them, and she gets beyond being near.

Speaker 310:23

Say folk, torn as a stalk, before the hundred fronts of God were I would walk and suck with a gun.

Speaker 310:33

The raided carved son among the flazid fairy corn The yodicorn his tornfall on The smut faced sheep Sit and sleep.

Speaker 310:43

Periwitches we all

Presenter10:47

Old Suffolk sung by Kiri Takanawa

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As a young composer, Sir William, which English musician influenced you most, do you think? English musician. Yes.

Presenter10:58

But I was great friends with Constance Lambert.

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I I think in a way he did influence me, though not his music, because remember he wrote the Rio Grande, which was very successful.

Presenter11:11

I can't say it influenced me, but uh I got a lot of ideas from him, you know. I mean we were great friends.

Sir William Walton11:16

Yeah.

Presenter11:18

Yes, he had a wonderfully lively lively mind.

Sir William Walton11:20

Like their mind.

Presenter11:21

Some of your early compositions were of course commissioned, some of them by the BBC. Are you one of those people who have to have a deadline before you can deliver a new work? Well, no, I'm not. I'm no good at that. I became good at it later on when I took to film writing. Yes. But till then I had was very very

Sir William Walton11:39

Uh

Presenter11:44

Slack about when I finished the picture. Your oeuvre is is not a a very large one, is it? Not at all.

Presenter11:52

How many symphonies? Two. Two. Two too many two.

Presenter11:57

Now the first had its premiere performance without a last movement. Why was that? Well I couldn't finish it, that's all. It was already announced and it wasn't ready. It wasn't ready. Simple as that. Did it make a great difference? Uh I mean was there a a scondal about it? Slight. The only person who really stuck up for me, strangest to say, was Daryl Vaughan Williams. Mm-hmm.

Sir William Walton12:04

Yeah.

Presenter12:22

He said, All right as it is, leave it alone But as I'd really more or less finished the last movement, I mean and need another month or two to work on.

Presenter12:35

I went on later. I think I was right.

Presenter12:39

One full-length opera, I believe that was Troilus and Cressida. Yes. And, of course, a set of concertos. Yes.

Presenter12:47

If only one of your works were to survive, and that's looking at things very personalistically, which one would you like it to be? Which one of your works do you think is true, Walton? Very difficult to say.

Presenter12:59

But I think the violin concerto I'd miss most myself on my desert island.

Presenter13:08

I haven't got any recollection of that iceberg.

Presenter13:12

Well, it is one of the records that you've chosen among your eight for the Desert Islands, so I think this is the time to play it, as you mentioned it.

Presenter13:20

I think it is. And I know that your favorite recording is by Heifitz.

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And it's the recording that you conducted yourself.

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Which part of it shall we hear? I think the last movement.

Presenter14:29

The opening of the last movement of your concerto for violin and orchestra, with Jascha Heifitz as soloist. He was the first soloist to play the work, wasn't he? Yeah, he commissioned it actually. It was his work.

Sir William Walton14:40

Yeah, he

Presenter14:44

No one else had ever answered the right word form.

Presenter14:48

So I was delighted and flattered.

Presenter14:50

When he took to it, you see he had uh ask other people.

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and turn the works down.

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I should hate to say who they were, I may I say they're very well known.

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But uh they didn't pass his um

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Scrutiny.

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He made it very difficult.

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Your films brought your music to a a very wide public. I believe it was Paul Zinner who

Presenter15:18

discovered you, as it were, as a film composer? Well, it was a chap called Dallas Bauer who worked with Zinner. Yes. And he suggested to Zinner that I should do with the music. There was a film called Escape Me Never with Elizabeth Bergner in it.

Presenter15:37

And I had no idea what the hell I was up to at all. I had never thought of writing film music, and I didn't know how to, you know.

Presenter15:46

You have to do five minutes there, two minutes there, one a second there, and uh a tremendously disciplined form of writing.

Sir William Walton15:53

Writers

Presenter15:55

How far into the production did you like to start work? When did you like to start working on a rough cut, or did you I just went so it often.

Sir William Walton16:04

Oh f

Presenter16:06

Also I rather enjoyed going down to Denham. You wrote the music for two or three of Elizabeth Bergener's films. Yes, I did. I've forgotten which. Well, including Laurence Olivier's first Shakespeare film, As You Like It.

Sir William Walton16:18

The film as you like it.

Presenter16:20

Yeah.

Presenter16:21

And you did some Ealing films during the war? I did a lot of films during the war. And the first of the few for which you wrote The Spitfire Few?

Presenter16:30

Was it as a result of having done that um early as you like it?

Presenter16:35

That Laurence Olivier asked you to do the music for Henry V? I don't think directly actually, but as a help, he said that he remembered that I had done it when I was suggested. It has surely become the most famous film music suite of all time. Oh no, uh the most famous, but I mean it has become quite famous. And you followed it with Hamlet and Richard the Third? Yes. Have you done any since then? No, I haven't.

Presenter17:04

Well, time for another record. What's number five to be?

Presenter17:07

Talking about number five, Sibeli is number five. The Fifth Symphony. Yeah. Why do you choose that? Well, it's one of my favorite symphonies.

Presenter17:17

Even more than Beethoven five.

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And uh

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It's very accessible and it had a great influence on me really.

Presenter17:27

More than beta in fact.

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But who is performing this version?

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This one for recording.

Presenter18:30

The closing passage of the Sebelius Fifth Symphony in E Vlad Major.

Presenter18:34

Herbert von Carrion conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter18:38

During the war, Sir William, you were an ambulance driver. You you like driving motor vehicles rather fast, don't you? Well, I did later, but not then, because I couldn't it was a double D clutch. I didn't drive anyhow.

Presenter18:53

Several ambulances, I'm afraid, smashed under my delicate fingers. Oh dear. So I was asked not to continue.

Presenter19:03

They took your ambulances away from there and said you better write phone music instead.

Sir William Walton19:04

Where is he?

Presenter19:11

It was about thirty years ago, I think, that you elected to retire to a quiet island. I don't mean retire literally, but to go away to a quiet island off the Italian coast. Have you enjoyed that peace and quiet?

Presenter19:28

My wife's a great gardener. Your garden is famous. And I got involved with it, you know. I know nothing about it still. She knows a lot. And we had the luck of getting hold of Russell Page to design it.

Presenter19:44

Now, you're a quiet man, Sir William, but your music bubbles with excitement and energy. Do you feel that excitement when you write? I suppose I must do. I can't remember.

Presenter19:56

And I haven't written an exciting work for some time.

Presenter20:01

Are you still hard at work? I wouldn't say hard or at work, but I have written. Your most recent works, you've written for Rostopovitch. You met him in Russia, didn't you? Yes, I did.

Presenter20:14

But uh lately I've become great friends with him. When did you go to Russia?

Presenter20:19

Oh, some years ago. What was the occasion? We were invited by the L S O to go. A very rare sort of privilege, I thought, for me and my wife to be guests of the L S O.

Presenter20:33

And the Russians were rather flabbergasted by this. In fact, they they couldn't get over it at all.

Presenter20:40

that a a composer should be invited to Russia by the orchestra. I mean, not the king to do at all. Only capitalist countries could do such a base thing.

Presenter20:55

Anyhow, I got to know Ross Browitz quite well and he asked me to write a work for him. And I said, You never played my cello concerto, you played everybody else's, but not mine.

Presenter21:11

And he said

Presenter21:12

You do me favour.

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I do you favor.

Presenter21:18

You write new concerto and I'll play both old and new one. Fair enough. Fair enough. But I didn't write a new concerto. I was too much trouble.

Presenter21:31

And I wrote him this piece for solo in Stadham, which has given him more trouble, really, I think, than me.

Presenter21:41

But he played it marvellously, played it to me last night.

Presenter21:45

Maze are marvelous intuitive.

Presenter21:48

Interpreter

Presenter21:50

You've been collaborating with Alan Bennett on a on a one-act opera.

Sir William Walton21:55

Heavens it hasn't it got very far?

Presenter21:58

Because you've already done one one actor, but all the good to have another to make a complete evening.

Sir William Walton22:01

We'd rather good to have another to make a complete evening.

Presenter22:04

And uh it's very difficult to find the right subject.

Presenter22:08

And he's a very good person. I think I could collaborate with him very well then. Yes, he's a very amusing man, too. Nice man to work with, I should think.

Sir William Walton22:13

Then

Sir William Walton22:15

Got it.

Presenter22:16

Let's have another record. What have we got now? Well, talking about opera, I should like to have a girl at Puccine, who's really almost my favorite.

Presenter22:26

Jim and Verney are my two operatic favourites.

Presenter22:30

and that a Tosca or anything like butterfly.

Presenter22:36

Well, you choose Tosca. And which part of it and who shall sing it?

Sir William Walton22:41

Vaffra Singer

Presenter22:42

Pasido Domingo.

Presenter22:45

No this thing.

Presenter22:47

And uh at the beginning of the third act.

Speaker 423:02

En Basel Spiola.

Speaker 423:27

Uh

Speaker 423:28

Yeah everyone.

Presenter23:37

Placido Domingo singing the great tenor aria from the third act of Puccini's Tosca.

Presenter23:44

Well, let's go straight into your seventh record to William. What's that to be?

Presenter23:48

Well it's going to be by my friend Hans Henzer.

Presenter23:52

And uh

Presenter23:53

He is also a great opera composer.

Presenter23:56

This isn't actually from uh any of his operas, but there's five Neapolitan songs and they're wonderful songs. I'm afraid we've only got time for one, but they're he's uh a very, very extraordinarily good composer, I think the best for our day almost.

Speaker 424:22

Allah wallah wa dihum ta.

Speaker 424:30

Party on

Speaker 424:42

Love or your Saviour are you buried.

Speaker 424:59

A sembra

Sir William Walton24:59

I say

Sir William Walton25:01

Oh yeah, it's a fine.

Sir William Walton25:03

Yeah.

Speaker 425:07

Love all your friends.

Presenter25:16

The second of Five Neapolitan Songs by Hans Werner Henser.

Presenter25:20

A l'acque de l'fontanelle.

Presenter25:24

Gardening being a hobby of yours, you're on this miserable island all on your own, but you could cultivate.

Presenter25:31

Some uh vegetables or something to eat. I suppose so. Strictly forbidden in our garden, I may say. No vegetables at all? No, none at all. Haven't you a vegetable garden behind some bushes somewhere? No, no. All that beautiful garden, you have to go and buy your vegetables. Oh dear. It's much easier, you see, than having a special bit of garden cut off.

Sir William Walton25:39

The hell batch was a term.

Sir William Walton25:43

Bow answer.

Sir William Walton25:44

Come no

Sir William Walton25:46

I have to go and buy your vegetable.

Presenter25:56

To grow horrible vegetables then.

Presenter25:59

Do you like small boats? If a suitable small craft were to be discovered. I'm not really any good on the sea or in the sea, actually. Well, we'd better stay where you are on the island. We'll come and fetch you. That's better. Right.

Sir William Walton26:03

Yeah.

Speaker 426:12

That's better.

Presenter26:14

While you've been here in London, there have been all the festivities and celebrations for your eightieth birthday, which took place last Monday. What's been going on? There was a big concert at the Festival Hall, wasn't there? Yes, there was.

Presenter26:28

And I think all my works practically have been played I'm luck luckily not a great I didn't write music every minute.

Presenter26:37

Well, that was a good long evening if they played the whole lot.

Presenter26:41

And there have been a whole lot of other broadcasts of not quite such an elaborate nature, such as Composer of the Week and What's Good.

Presenter26:49

Thanks for listening to money. Of course. Oh, yes. Well, that's the object of having a birthday. It's a birthday present, isn't it? It is, yes.

Sir William Walton26:54

Birthday present

Presenter26:57

Well, we got your last record. What's that going to be? It's a nice noisy recording.

Presenter27:02

of uh Belshazzar's feasts conducted by Andre Present.

Presenter27:07

That he does it very well.

Presenter28:08

The closing passage of Belshazzar's Feast, the London Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Andrei Preben.

Presenter28:14

If you could take only one disc of the

Presenter28:17

Eight. Which would it be? It wouldn't be that it's too loud enough.

Presenter28:22

What would it be? Probably the violin concerto. Your own violin concerto. And you're allowed to take one luxury to the island, any one thing you would like to have of no practical use.

Presenter28:35

A funicular. A funicular, a railway. Yeah, because you see our gardens on the side of a hill. Yes. And it's a great, great walk. If you go up by the steps, I used to do when uh I was young. We used to

Presenter28:51

But my mother-in-law objected. I objected too. So you've got this little I've got a little funeral. Yeah. Just for two people. For two people.

Sir William Walton28:59

Yes.

Presenter29:02

And you think this is going to be a hilly island? Well, it's bound to be I mean all the islands around there are hilly.

Presenter29:08

All right. We'll arrange that it shall be for two people, just in case anybody else turns up. Quite. And one book. You have the Bible and Shakespeare. And one other book. What would you like? Besides those. Yes. Well, as I have taken this interest rather late in life, I have taken this interest in gardening, I shall take The Education of a Gardener by Russell Page.

Presenter29:31

The Education of a Gardener by Russell Page.

Speaker 429:34

But

Presenter29:36

Who designed your garden? Yes. Spend it. Of course you shall have that.

Presenter29:40

And thank you, Sir William Walton, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. And I do hope you had a very happy eightieth birthday to all the celebrations you've enjoyed here in London. Thank you very much. It's been a great pleasure talking. Thank you. Thank you all. Goodbye, everyone.

Sir William Walton30:06

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.