Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Roy Plomley
Distinguished painter and one of Britain's finest portrait painters.
Eight records
Violin Concerto in D major, Op. 61 (slow movement)Favourite
Well that takes me back to days when I was very young in my native city.
Well, I'm a Scott and I would like a song of my country.
I'd like something that would recall Paris, the Paris I knew when I was young.
Piano Trio in B-flat major, Op. 97 'Archduke' (slow movement)
Alfred Cortot, Jacques Thibaud, Pablo Casals
Something I heard long ago, and I would like to hear it again.
A Midsummer Night's Dream, Op. 61 (Scherzo)
Benno was an old friend and a great master.
I like that because it's a very beautiful prayer, and I think someone there alone on a desert island would be in need of prayer.
The keepsakes
The book
I thought a lot about that. And I think on the whole I'd like the largest and best.
The luxury
Art materials (paper, pencil, canvas, paint and brushes)
Freed from the arbitrary demands of portraiture, it's just possible I might produce something which [would] make a little contribution to human vision.
In conversation
Presenter asks
Do you think you could endure the loneliness of a desert island existence?
Well, I could endure it for a time. I think I might even enjoy it, but I can't say for how long, because I'm rather a gregarious animal.
Presenter asks
Is there any one thing you can think of that you'd be glad to have got away from?
Well, I think of course of traffic jams, diesel fuel.
Presenter asks
Mr. Gunn, how many sittings do you reckon on for a portrait on average?
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
Speaker 1
BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne. Welcome to this archive edition of Desert Island Discs. The programme was broadcast on New Year's Day 1962. The castaway was the artist James Gunn and the presenter was Roy Plumley. What you're about to hear was recorded off-air, so it isn't of broadcast quality. You can find the complete list of tracks chosen on his castaway page on the Desert Island Discs website. The music has been shortened for rights reasons. We hope you enjoy listening.
Speaker 2
Desert Island Discs.
Speaker 2
Each week, a well-known person is asked the question, if you were to be cast away alone on a desert island, which eight gramophone records would you choose to have with you?
Speaker 2
As usual, the castaway is introduced by Roy Plumley.
Speaker 2
Uh
Presenter
How do you do, ladies and gentlemen?
Presenter
On our desert island this week is a very distinguished painter.
Presenter
One of our finest portrait painters, James Gunn, R.A.
Presenter
First of all, mister Gunn, do you think you could endure the loneliness of a desert island existence?
Presenter
Well, I could endure it for a time. I think I might even enjoy it, but
Presenter
I can't say for how long, because I'm rather a gregarious animal.
Presenter
Is there any one thing you can think of that you'd be glad to have got away from?
Presenter
Well, I think of course of traffic jams.
Presenter
Diesel fuel.
Presenter
And uh buff
Presenter
End of the
Presenter
Is music important to you?
Presenter
Yes, it is.
Presenter
I grew up in a
Presenter
A musical family.
Presenter
Most of the members played some instrument. Do you?
Presenter
No, I'm afraid I don't. I did the spa at one time to play.
Presenter
But I I never got very far.
Presenter
When you're painting, when you're working on your own, I mean, do you use the radio or gramophone as a background? Oh yes, I do.
Presenter
Now looking down this list of records that you've chosen to take to the Desert Island, is there any one thing that they seem to have in common?
Presenter
Well, they're all chosen because they
Presenter
Recall
Presenter
the past in some way.
Presenter
What's the first one?
Presenter
The first one is the Beethoven violin concerto.
Presenter
I should like uh
Presenter
The slow move.
Presenter
And what does that record?
Presenter
Well that takes me back.
Presenter
to days when I was very young.
Presenter
in my native city.
Presenter
Glasgow was, I have no doubt it still is, a very musical city.
Presenter
And I and my brothers used to go to the Harrison concerts.
Presenter
For one shilling you could stand at the back of St. Andrew's Hall.
Presenter
Yeah, but
Presenter
Classics played by
Presenter
great performers like uh
Presenter
You sigh.
Presenter
and the relatively young Chrysler.
Presenter
Can't believe.
Presenter
And uh
Presenter
Miss Kaielman. Well, let's bring all that back for you by listening to this part of the Beethoven Violin Concerto.
James Gunn RA
Um
Presenter
Part of Beethoven's concerto in D.
Presenter
Played by Heifitz with the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Runch. What's your second choice?
Presenter
Well, I'm a Scott and I would like a song of my country.
Presenter
The Eris K Lab.
James Gunn RA
They needed a white heart.
James Gunn RA
The lack of an oyster wild of a sea.
James Gunn RA
My love's light, my
James Gunn RA
Fare me all Fernie Obani.
Presenter
Heaven me all
James Gunn RA
Yeah.
James Gunn RA
Oh this
Presenter
Kenneth McKellar singing The Erisque Loveless.
Presenter
Mr. Gunn, you spent your childhood in Scotland. Can you remember any one occasion that stimulated your interest in painting and drawing?
Presenter
No, there never was a time when I wasn't.
Presenter
The term
Presenter
Vienna.
Presenter
Where did you study?
Presenter
When I studied uh
Presenter
First of all, with an artist friend of my father.
Presenter
Then I was briefly at the School of Art in Glasgow.
Presenter
then at the Royal Academy School in Edinburgh, and then in Paris.
Presenter
But I
Presenter
What's the pupil love?
Presenter
Jean-Paul Laurence of the Academy Julien.
Presenter
And when you'd completed your studies, what was the next move?
Presenter
Well then I went to Spain in 1914.
Presenter
And there I did a lot of painting and of course I learned to know
Presenter
Rado
Presenter
Were you selling these pennies?
Presenter
Oh yes, at this time I had already got a contract with a Bond Street dealer.
Speaker 1
Uh
Speaker 2
Who is?
Presenter
He was paying me a retaining
Presenter
Oh my word
Presenter
And uh
Presenter
We went fifty-fifty.
Presenter
Yes. So already straight from your student days you were earning a good living as a patient. Yes, I was doing very well in NPR.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Presenter
And then, well, nineteen fourteen, of course, the war.
Presenter
Yes, the war clouds were gathering while I was still in Spain.
Presenter
I believe you served in the Artist Rifles and in the 15th Scottish Division. When you returned to civilian life, did you find you could pick up the threads fairly easily?
James Gunn RA
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Uh
Presenter
Well it's very difficult
Speaker 1
Well it's
Presenter
Because at that time
Presenter
The slump cave.
Presenter
Some followed that period when there was a lot of spending, there was a lot of hot money to be spent.
Presenter
Translated in
Presenter
Pictures.
Presenter
The artists used to tell me they couldn't paint enough pictures during the war to supply the demand, but by the time I got back into circulation, that hot money had cooled and uh
Presenter
Things were very difficult. So what did you do?
Presenter
Well, I did a lot of commercial work.
Presenter
I I used to do covers for Edward Hudson's productions.
Presenter
Homes and gardens.
Presenter
Open air term.
Presenter
What changed your luck? What led to success?
Presenter
Well I think
Presenter
The
Presenter
First picture but rarely
Presenter
Maida.
Presenter
considerable impact was a conversation piece I painted of
Presenter
Hiller Bellach.
Presenter
G.K. Chesterton and Martin's Barry.
Presenter
That was in 1932.
Presenter
Had you decided at that time to specialize as a portrait painter?
Presenter
Well, yes, I was painting portraits more or less all the time then.
Presenter
Now before we talk of some of the great figures you've painted, let's have another record. What's number three?
Presenter
Well, I'd like um
Presenter
I'd like something that would recall Paris.
Presenter
the Paris I knew when I was young.
Presenter
But I've known since what I've been preferred.
Presenter
La Vien Rose by
Presenter
You did yeah.
James Gunn RA
Oh, films for the fair, films for the touband, je voir la vien.
James Gunn RA
Lehmu the Lehmu
James Gunn RA
L'Ore pour a combined.
James Gunn RA
Ilmaladis, la vires, hum la vi.
James Gunn RA
And I go for love and more.
Presenter
They did peer off singing La Villain Rose.
Presenter
Mr. Gowan, how many settings do you reckon on for a portrait on Naver?
Presenter
Well, that is something which I must buy.
Presenter
Everyone who comes sit.
Presenter
And I didn't say I like to have
Presenter
At least eight.
Presenter
Probably
Presenter
twelve.
Presenter
And if I need more, I like to be sure I can have more. Yes. And of course, in addition, without the sitter, there's a great deal of time when you have to paint the detail to draperies and jewelry. Oh, yes. Has there ever been a portrait you couldn't finish, someone who defeated you as a subject?
Presenter
Yes.
Presenter
That has happened.
Presenter
Once or twice.
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I've had uh
Presenter
A diplomatic accent.
Presenter
Picture four now that
Presenter
In order that it should not get home. You must have a great deal of specialized knowledge about uniforms and orders and decoration.
Presenter
No, I I I don't know a great deal about that. I rely on
Presenter
The sitar or on Eden Ravenscroft put it right.
Presenter
You painted Vicott Montgomery in the field during his European campaign in 1944. Yes.
Presenter
He asked me to.
Presenter
to go over and paint.
Presenter
I must say when his uh military assistant rang the app I could hardly believe it true.
Presenter
Then he sent us that code term.
Presenter
Blew me over for my kids.
Presenter
And I stayed with him for
Presenter
Well, nearly a month. Yeah. Just snatching sittings about members. Yes.
Presenter
He was very good, like all busy people. He would say in the morning, I will give you an hour at such and such a time.
Presenter
You almost get
Presenter
And of course you've painted a number of members of the royal family.
Presenter
I painted King George the Sixth and uh
Presenter
There's a top and then
Presenter
I painted
Presenter
President Queen.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
He was selected by the Queen to paint the state portrait in her robes of state after her coronation. I believe a copy of this picture is sent to all our embassies overseas.
Presenter
How many copies does that involve?
Presenter
Total precise number
Presenter
Something like fifty or sixty. Yeah.
Presenter
Uh do you have control over these copies? I mean obviously you don't do them yourself, but
Presenter
No, unfortunately I did not have
Speaker 1
Neural amplifier.
Presenter
And um
Presenter
I'm not very happy about it.
Presenter
You have no pupils whom you could appoint as governments. No.
Presenter
No, that's where the 18th century printers had it. They had a school.
Presenter
And they put them on to make the carpets.
Presenter
And they could supervise them.
Presenter
This was a very beautiful, very elaborate
Presenter
painting. It must have taken a great deal of time.
Presenter
Yes, it took a long time.
Presenter
I I made my first studies for it at Balmoral.
Presenter
But the picture was mainly painted at Buckingham Palace.
Presenter
And then of course I painted
Presenter
Uh a replica myself. One master copy. Yes.
Presenter
Well, let's break off here and have uh break on number four or whatnot.
Presenter
Well, for number four, I would like the Bach air.
Presenter
They are on the listing.
Presenter
Airman playing barks air on the D string.
Presenter
Mr. Gunn, critics have from time to time criticized your work using words like
Presenter
Photographic accuracy. Would you like to comment on that?
Presenter
Well, yes.
Presenter
Of course, portraiture.
Presenter
Mix.
Presenter
The maths.
Presenter
One has to.
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Produce something to the like
Presenter
After all, people
Presenter
We want a port, we want something.
Presenter
Which is like the sentiment. I don't use the target.
Presenter
But I I think I do make things look like
Presenter
How do you like to get to know your sitters? Do you like to
Presenter
Sit them down in your studio and walk round them, or do you like to get to know them socially first?
Presenter
But only if my first sitting is given over to making a sketch.
Presenter
on a small scale proportionate to the
Presenter
Can so I'm going to paint on.
Presenter
And that enables me to get to know something of my subject.
Presenter
I sometimes get the design which
Presenter
suits me for the picture, sometimes not, but at all events I find out about him.
Presenter
And he discovers that sitting is not such an ordeality in nature.
Presenter
Well, that's where the the equivalent of the bedside manner comes in to put your subject at his ease.
Presenter
You've been quoted as saying some very unflattering things about abstract art.
Presenter
Non-representational painting doesn't mean anything to you at all.
Presenter
Well, no, I'm afraid it doesn't mean much to me, but I have been misquoted a good deal about this.
Presenter
You see for me painting
Presenter
is a reflection of the period. It's a part of history.
Presenter
It all tells its story.
Presenter
And I suppose these are
Presenter
More modern.
Presenter
Abstractions are the expression of a period that
Presenter
Lives
Presenter
In uncertain
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I'm not in fear.
Presenter
What about the Impressionists, for example?
Presenter
Oh, I love the impression.
Presenter
If I'd had a few hundred pounds when I was a student in Paris long ago, I'd have been a millionaire by it.
Presenter
You've recently painted Mr. Macmillan, the Prime Minister, with such a busy man. Can you get him to your studio?
Presenter
Well no.
Presenter
I painted that picture of Downing Street.
Presenter
Incidentally, I acquired a curious distinction as a result of that picture. What was that?
Presenter
But it so happened that the last sitting I had at Downing Street was on the day that the Prime Minister left Downing Street to go to Admiralty House, before Downing Street was being rebuilt.
Speaker 1
Read no
Presenter
I started work
Presenter
I remember at eleven o'clock in the morning.
Presenter
And she said she could sit again in the afternoon.
Presenter
We lunched together.
Presenter
As we were sitting down to lunch, he said,
Presenter
You know, I thought of something. Do you realize you are the last guest in dining store?
Presenter
And in fact I was. We worked together that afternoon.
Presenter
and in the evening he left
Presenter
Go to chapel.
Presenter
I had my home in Hampstead.
Presenter
Number 10. The house
Presenter
I must say I have thought of it since of death.
Presenter
Proud procession from the time of Walpole, monarchs and statesmen in great moments of history and drama.
Presenter
I don't know if there's any record of the first, but I put it on record that I was positively the last guess.
Presenter
of a Prime Minister of the old
Presenter
And that's a splendid distinction.
Presenter
Well let's break off here for breakout number five.
Presenter
For number five, I should like a fragment from Swan Baby.
Presenter
Because of its association.
Presenter
An excerpt from the second act of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, Anto Dorati conducting the Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra.
Presenter
Which brings us to number six.
Presenter
I'd like something from the Archduke.
Presenter
Corteau, Tibo and Casao.
Presenter
Something I heard long ago.
Presenter
And I would like to hear it again.
Presenter
And the game.
Presenter
Which part of the work?
Presenter
The slow
Presenter
The opening of the slow movement of Beethoven's Archduke Trio in B-flat
Presenter
Led by Corto, Thibault and Cassange.
Presenter
mister Gunn, how efficient would you be on this island as a castaway?
Presenter
Well, I think I could manage. You see, I'm an old campaigner.
Presenter
When I was in Paris as a student, I lived under quite primitive conditions.
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Tad
Presenter
Of course no.
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Mark Indeed.
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I would
Presenter
Yes, I can cook fairly well.
Presenter
Anything of a fisherman?
Presenter
Well, that too. I have fish. I think I might manage. And a shelter?
Presenter
I think I could miss.
Presenter
You're all right then, aren't you?
Presenter
Let's get back to music.
Presenter
Splendid.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Presenter
Number 7.
Presenter
Well, I would like to hear
Presenter
Beno Mazevich.
Presenter
Playing the scrazzle.
Presenter
From Midsummer High School.
Presenter
I like that because uh
Presenter
O'Ben was an old friend.
Presenter
and the great mast.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
Planes.
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Beno Moisevich playing the latter half of the scherzo.
Presenter
Mendelssohn's music to Midsomenite's Dream.
Presenter
And now we come to your last one, mister Gunn. What have you saved for the end?
Presenter
Well to the end.
Presenter
I think I would like uh shoe bird have been.
Presenter
And I like that because it's a very beautiful prayer.
Presenter
And I think someone there
Presenter
Alone on a desert island.
Presenter
be in need of prayer.
Presenter
Kirsten Flagstadt singing Schubert's Arde Maria.
Presenter
There you are eight.
Presenter
If you could only have one on the island, which would it be?
Presenter
Well, I think it would be the
Presenter
The violin concharto.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
And you're allowed to take one luxury with you to the island.
Presenter
Well, I'd want a lot of materials. I'd want paper and pencil.
Presenter
I'd want canvas, paint and brush.
Presenter
Though who knows, I might take to throwing the pain.
Presenter
After time.
Presenter
It is just possible I might.
Presenter
Freed from the arbitrary demands of portraiture, it's just possible I might produce something which rule
Presenter
make a little contribution to human vision.
Presenter
And who loans might enrich the dealers at some later date.
Presenter
Or the pile stored. And one book.
Presenter
But I thought a lot about that.
Presenter
And I think on the whole I'd like the largest and best.
Presenter
Anthology of Poets
Speaker 1
Um
Presenter
Right. I don't know what that is.
Presenter
Well, we'll leave that to a later.
Presenter
Meta decision.
Presenter
And thank you, James Gunn, for letting us hear your choice of desert islanders. And thank you.
Presenter
Goodbye, everyone.
Presenter
The guest in today's recording program was James Gunn, R.A., the interviewer Roy Plumley, and the producer Monica Chapp.
Well, that is something which I must by [buy]. Everyone who comes sits. And I didn't say I like to have at least eight. Probably twelve. And if I need more, I like to be sure I can have more.
Presenter asks
Critics have from time to time criticized your work using words like 'photographic accuracy'. Would you like to comment on that?
Well, yes. Of course, portraiture mix [must] the math[s] … One has to produce something to the like [likeness]. After all, people, we want a port[rait], we want something which is like the sentiment. I don't use the target, but I think I do make things look like [them].
Presenter asks
How do you like to get to know your sitters? Do you like to sit them down in your studio and walk round them, or do you like to get to know them socially first?
[The] first sitting is given over to making a sketch, on a small scale proportionate to the canvas I'm going to paint on. And that enables me to get to know something of my subject. I sometimes get the design which suits me for the picture, sometimes not, but at all events I find out about him. And he discovers that sitting is not such an ordeal as he imagined.
Presenter asks
What about non-representational painting? Does it mean anything to you?
Well, no, I'm afraid it doesn't mean much to me, but I have been misquoted a good deal about this. You see for me painting is a reflection of the period. It's a part of history. It all tells its story. And I suppose these more modern abstractions are the expression of a period that lives in uncertainty.
“I could endure it for a time. I think I might even enjoy it, but I can't say for how long, because I'm rather a gregarious animal.”
“I painted King George the Sixth and … that portrait of the Queen. … I was selected by the Queen to paint the state portrait in her robes of state after her coronation.”
“It so happened that the last sitting I had at Downing Street was on the day that the Prime Minister left Downing Street to go to Admiralty House. … As we were sitting down to lunch, he said, 'You know, I thought of something. Do you realize you are the last guest in Downing Street?' And in fact I was. … I put it on record that I was positively the last guest of a Prime Minister of the old Downing Street, and that's a splendid distinction.”
“I think it would be the violin concerto.”
“I'd want a lot of materials. I'd want paper and pencil. I'd want canvas, paint and brush. Though who knows, I might take to throwing the paint after time. … Freed from the arbitrary demands of portraiture, it's just possible I might produce something which would make a little contribution to human vision. And who knows might enrich the dealers at some later date.”