Rt Hon William Whitelaw

Rt Hon William Whitelaw0:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty one, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:26

Our castaway this week is a Scot.

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He's a farmer, a soldier, a first rate golfer, and a leading politician. In fact, he's the Home Secretary, and he's Member for Penrith and the Border, the Right Honourable William Whitelaw.

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mister Whitelaw, can you think of one thing you would be particularly happy to have got away from in your isolation?

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No, I actually can't. For the curious reason that I do enjoy being with people, I simply hate being alone. Nothing I hate more. Right. How much does music mean in your life? Well, it's meant more as time has gone on. Initially, I didn't think much of it. I'm not musical. I can't sing. In fact, my family say under no circumstances must I ever open my mouth. And indeed, I open my mouth for the national anthem on popular occasions, but very little noise ever comes out. Is there a musical member of the family, your wife or one of your daughters? My wife is my father was musical. So I understand he was killed in the first war. But also my family have some musical within them, but none of my children were musical. None of my four girls. Nobody else. And quite suddenly, my granddaughter, now aged thirteen, is really very musical. Do you ever play discs yourself? Yes, I do. I thought and the more I live, the more I enjoy and the more I find the relaxation of music, and therefore I do play quite a lot now.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw1:16

What the fuck?

Rt Hon William Whitelaw1:17

Do I watch?

Presenter1:45

Was there any kind of guiding principle that you adopted in choosing your eight records for solitude? Yes, I said at the start that I hated being left alone, and I made up my mind that the only thing I could then do was to have records which would remind me of people and of many periods of my life, and then I could think of these and enjoy them, or even be sad about them, but at least I would be able to think of them. So where do we start?

Presenter2:09

Well, my army life meant a great deal to me. Uh my time in the Scots Guards meant a great deal to me. My time in Scotland when I was brought up one never quite forgets the parts of the country one was brought up, and my time with my mother, because she I was an only child and I never saw my father. That time in the north of Scotland meant a lot to me too. So what are we going to hear? First of all, I would like therefore to combine the two with the Regimental March of the Scots Guards, Heel and Lady.

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Eland Laddie, by the band of the Scots Guards, the Director of Music, Major James Howe.

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Your early days, mister Whitelaw, you were born in Edinburgh, is that right? That's how I was, yes. And you had the misfortune to lose your father. You were brought up by your mother and and your grandfather. Yes, that's right.

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Your grandfather was chairman of the old London and North Eastern Railway. You had wonderful opportunities to be a railway enthusiast, were you? Not really. But then people very seldom seem actually to follow exactly their forebearers. I was interested. I remember going once with my grandfather on a railway train, which was one of the very early fast trains to Newcastle. And it broke down almost immediately we left King's Cross. The first time he'd ever taken me on one, he was very angry indeed. I should think so. Was the majority of your childhood spent in the city or in the country? Basically, I suppose you'll call it the country. It was at Nairn on the Murray Firth coast, a small seaside town. So it was a bit of both, really. Did you go to an Edinburgh prep school? No, I didn't. I went to a prep school just outside London, near Wokingham in Berkshire. And then to Winchester. I believe there was a divergence of opinion about that between your mother and your grandfather. Yes, my grandfather wanted me to go to a Scottish school, and my mother thought it was a good thing to get a broad education, to be broadened out into the United Kingdom, as we might say nowadays, and therefore she thought I ought to go to a school in England, and she won. So down to the warm and lush south. How did you do at Winchester? Oh, all right. I got there from one end to the other. I don't think one would ever say that I was one of the great brains that came out of Winchester, because heaven knows there's some tremendous brains that come out of Winchester. But I started fairly near the bottom and I finished fairly near the top, and I suppose it was quite reasonable. What were you best at?

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Well, certainly not anything to do with mathematics or figures. I always remember there was a great mathematical teacher, and when I passed elementary mathematics in the then-school certificate of those days, he said, Good. Now you need never do any other mathematics for the rest of your life. He wasn't quite right, but he never taught me again, and I think he was pretty wise. At school, had you formulated any ambition what you wanted to do? None. Absolutely none at all. I had really no idea at all. Let's have your second record. What's that? Comes back to my time at Winchester. We all had to sing in the chorus. All of us. We were doing Carmen, the March of the Torridors from Carmen. And I was told two days before that I sang so badly that I was the one person who was to be excluded from the chorus. I was deeply upset, perfectly miserable, and I've always remembered Carmen and the March of the Torridors with great feeling ever since. Oh, dear. And you'd like to hear it now to remind you of your shame on that day. Well, I was so sad. I've hardly ever sung again. But you had the afternoon off. No, I didn't. I had to sit and listen to the others sing.

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The chorus from the fourth act of Bizet's Carmen, conducted by Sir Thomas Beacham.

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Now you went from Winchester to Trinity College, Cambridge. What did you read? I read history at the end, a law for the start. I read law for two years, and then I came to the conclusion in 1939 not a bad conclusion, that there was likely to be a war. I thought, therefore, I would go into the army and I would get the best degree I could get. I decided that I would get a better degree by finishing with history rather than law, which I found rather more difficult. So that's what I did. You took a a modest second in history. That's right. Even more modest third in law. That's exactly correct. What were your other activities in the university? Almost entirely playing golf. I was desperately keen at that time, and I got the golf blue, which I always longed to get. I played for Cambridge for two years, and would have played for a third but for the war. And I suppose at that time, if I could have been felt to be good enough, and if it had been the modern age, I might quite easily have decided that I would like to be a golf professional. Whether I would have ever been good enough, I'm not quite sure, but I think I would probably have liked to try.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw7:56

No, this

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You were captain of the university team. Did you beat the other place? Was it a good year? Yes, the two years I played, we won on both occasions. Any political activity in Cambridge? Almost none at all. Only once. I was once used when, after Oxford Union had voted that they would not fight for king and country, Churchill came to Cambridge in order to make sure that Cambridge would do so. And I was recruited as one of those who stood at the door, and when anybody said they were not for fighting for king and country, we pushed them away and kept them out. Perhaps that was why I became a whip later on. Indeed. So you decided to take a commission, a peacetime commission. Was there a military tradition in the family?

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Not really. Of course. My father and his two brothers had all served in the army during the First War, and tragically all had been killed.

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So the Scots Guards, and you had got your commission by the time war broke out? I'd got a a sort of temporary commission, but I didn't get a full commission until after the war broke out.

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Your third record, what next? That comes again from my time at Cambridge, when I used uh to go to the cinema a great deal. It was always said by my friends, and indeed by my friends to this day, that I go to sleep very often, and I always used to go to sleep in the cinema. And I once was said to have gone to the great waltz of those days and listened to the music, and I went six nights running because I enjoyed it so much, and I listened to that music, and I always claimed that I was not asleep, even though my eyes were shut. And of course, that leads me straight to the Blue Daniel, which I seem to love.

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Johann Strice's The Blue Danube, Ville Boskovsky conducting the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

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Now, the war started. Where were you posted? Oh, first of all, to Perbright. And then I did one or two very curious jobs. I was supposed at one time to guard then Croydon Airport, and I had a small contingent under a very strict captain, and he used to order us to go round the guard, right round the perimeter of the airport. And if he wasn't pleased with us, he went off to London for the night and ordered us to go round more frequently. And the final thing came to me. He said, Mr Whitelaw, you will continue going round the guard every hour throughout the night, and you will not stop. And to that he went off to London. So the sergeant and I decided we would get a small car, which we had. We took it and off we went round the guard in the car. Most unfortunately, it got bogged at the farther end of the airport. So we had to spend the rest of the night getting it back before the captain returned. That was one of my major memories of the early part of the war. And thereafter, walking round the perimeter. Walking round the perimeter afterwards with no more car. Now you ended up as a major commanding

Presenter11:55

A tank squadron in the Normandy cavalry. Yes. Your squadron had a very bad time, I believe. Yes, we did. In a battle which was pronounced a great success. It doesn't seem such a great success to you at the time, even if the ground has been gained, when, of course, you've lost a great many of the people who fought with you and who trained with you beforehand. But that's what happened to me. Indeed, you lost 11 tanks out of 16. That's right, it is indeed.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw12:13

But that's what happened to me.

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Did you move on into Germany? Yes, I did. I stayed with the same battalion. I eventually became second in command of that tank battalion, and we moved on into Germany up into Sleswik-Holstein. And I eventually took the surrender of a town right uh up in Schleswig-Holstein called Lützenberg on behalf of the British. I always remember that the German officers who were surrendering to us were most beautifully smartly dressed. And we, being British, were in uh the ordinary battle dress, and I must say we always were rather ashamed of ourselves how beautifully dressed they were at that moment.

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Then you were in Palestine. Yes. A staff officer, I believe, now. That's right. Yes, indeed. Originally we were supposed it was the first guards brigade I went to and we were told we were going to land on the mainland of Japan at that stage because the war with uh Japan was still continuing. And uh luckily I suppose for us, though in the history of time a questionable position, the atomic bombs, Russia and the rest, saved us. The war came to an end and we never went to Japan. So I suppose it can be said whatever else they did, I rather doubt whether I should be sitting here and talking to you if in fact we'd had to land on the mainland of Japan. But instead of that, we went to Palestine. Well indeed there was horror. I believe you were at the King David Hotel after the bombing. Yes, I was. It was a very difficult time. It was my first introduction to the awful problems of terrorism from the opposite way round, as I've often thought since. In those days I was a soldier doing and carrying through the policies which the politicians devised. And when I was at that end of the scale I couldn't understand what on earth the politicians thought they were doing. Once I became a politician I was always very conscious that probably the soldiers didn't know what on earth they thought I was doing.

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You decided to give up your commission and and leave the army? Yes, I did. My grandfather died. I had various family responsibilities near Glasgow, and I felt it was essential, really, that I went and took a part in these, and that's what I did.

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What are we going to hear now? What's the next record of Terry? We come back into the middle of the war and the time when my wife and I first was actually got engaged and then we got married. We were married in the early part of nineteen forty three and we

Rt Hon William Whitelaw14:16

The next record you tell me.

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became engaged just before Christmas, nineteen forty-two, and at that time the song of the moment was Dreaming of a White Christmas by Bing Crosby. We've both loved it ever since.

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Have a wonderful Christmas

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Just like

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Where the tree tops glisten

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And children listen.

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Uh

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Uh

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Beam Crossbit

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So, mister Whitelaw, you decided to leave the army to look after the family interests. I know there was some land in Scotland, some south of the border. Where did you settle? We lived just near Glasgow, near a place called Kirkintlerk. It was in those days was one of the only dry towns in the country. Voted itself dry. It's not dry any more today. Voted itself wet since then, but was famous as the dry tower in those days.

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Yeah.

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Vote.

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Now you were invited to stand in in that year, nineteen forty seven, I think.

Presenter15:36

Forty-seven or forty-eight, yes. Yes. In that year you were invited to stand as candidate in a Scottish constituency where you didn't stand a chance. Who conned you into that?

Rt Hon William Whitelaw15:37

Yeah.

Presenter15:45

Well, I was the people locally, I had an estate agent, the property, who was very keen on the Conservative politics. He was determined that I should stand. My family had stood. My grandfather had been a member of Parliament. So one of my great uncles and my mother's father had been a member of Parliament, too. So they all began to persuade me, and my mother was very keen. So I said, Oh, very well. I don't mind. I won't get in. I didn't think at that time I particularly wanted to. But I then stood in the 50 election, the 51 election, and enjoyed them very much. I stood against David Kirkwood in the 1950 election. He taught me a great deal and was very nice to me and very kind to me, and I've always remembered it. Well, going back to that original 1947 election where you burned your fingers in East Dunbardenshire, there's a lovely story about that campaign. You were having trouble at one meeting with a heckler.

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And you had to move on to another meeting, and you asked the heckler to go with you in the car, so that you could continue your battle. Is that true? Yes, and it's a very good thing, and I wish there were more hecklers today. They make the political meetings, and frequently, when things are very dull, you long for somebody who will heckle you, because the longer you've been in politics, the more opportunities it gives you if somebody produces some question. Two things always to remember. Never be afraid of it, because he has to stand up or shout from a sitting position. You're much higher than him on a platform. You have a microphone. He hasn't. And there are enormous advantages, therefore, in being heckled. I don't say being shouted down totally, but being heckled makes a meeting. Surely. So the heckler's doing all the work and the candidate is scoring all the points. Well, that's what you'd like to think when you're the candidate. It doesn't always work quite that way.

Presenter17:31

And you won eventually the contest for Penrith and the Border. That was when? 1955, yes. I became the candidate just before that in'fifty four' when the previous member was retiring, and then I got the seat in'fifty five for the general election then.' So you've had that consistency for what? Twenty six years. Twenty six years.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw17:39

Yes.

Presenter17:50

Now, within a year you had been given office as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. How long did you hold that post? Oh, I was first with uh then Peter Thornycroft, now Lord Thornycroft, of course, when he was President of the Board of Trade. And then I went with him to the Treasury when he became Chancellor of the Exchequer. I remained with him until he resigned, which I think was in 1958.

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And then you were assistant government whip. That's really being a staff officer again. Well, again, being a whip is really being part of helping the management of your party in Parliament, which is very important.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw18:16

And what it

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Now what does being a whip involve? Obviously you've got to know everybody, jolly them along.

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You need to know about the procedures of Parliament, how Parliament works. You need to know about people. You need to be interested in people. And you need to know how you can persuade people to do things perhaps sometimes they don't particularly want to do. And indeed, how to report to other people what the feeling of your party is. In fact, learning about how Parliament works and how a party and how a successful party combines as a team in Parliament. It is combining as a team. A rewarding job, I should think. It's extremely interesting. I never regret the days that I done it. In fact, I enjoyed them very much indeed. A touch of the nursemaid as well, I should think, occasionally.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw18:57

Uh

Presenter19:07

Well, the nursemaid. I don't think many of my colleagues in Parliament would like that phrase to day. I think I therefore better not use it. But jollying along, I suppose, would be fair on occasions.

Presenter19:18

We've got your fifth record. And that comes back to my constituency, comes back to Cumbria and to John Peel. It reminds me of the countryside and everything else. And when I was left on my own, that's what something I would really like to remember. And who would you like to sing it? Owen Brannigan.

Speaker 319:41

Dear can John feel with his coat so gay, Dear Ken John feel at the break of the day, Dear can John feel when he's far, far away With his hounds and his horn in the morning For the sound of his horn rolls down from my bed And the cry of his hounds which he oft times

Rt Hon William Whitelaw19:48

When he's far, far away.

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Can you see the battle?

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Smokey standing for me!

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Owen Brannigan with the Hendon Grammar School Choir and the Pro Artie Orchestra conducted by Charles McCallis.

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For about six years you were we were chief opposition whip. Is the job more difficult in opposition? Are most jobs more difficult in opposition? I think they are because you obviously have less authority and there isn't the same feeling from people that if they don't uh support the party that they will be doing some harm to the party's government. It's rather different in opposition. You can dissent from your party much more easily. Therefore keeping a party together is much more difficult in opposition and therefore in a way an opposition chief whip is a very important job. I think probably much more difficult in many ways than in government. But equally he's one of the few people in opposition who has an office and is totally full time. In government of course we have all the ministers and all the ministries. Opposition, no, the opposition chief whip is one of the few people who has. He has a very special part also in the running of parliament. I learned a great deal doing that job.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw20:26

Uh

Presenter21:12

In due course you became Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons. And what are his duties?

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His duties basically are to, with the, of course, government chief whip, to organise the business of the House of Commons. That means working through with the opposition whips as well. It also means getting the government's business through the House of Commons. At the same time, understanding the feelings of members in all parts of the House. Basically, he's part of the Government. It's his job to get the Government's business through. But he has at the same time to have a special responsibility for the interests of the Opposition and the interests of members of all parties in the House of Commons. So it's basically a job for the House of Commons.

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In nineteen seventy two you were appointed Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. You described that yourself as an appalling job.

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It was, of course, an appalling job at the time, very difficult inevitably, and taken on at a very difficult time. It was an enormous challenge, and it was a great experience. And despite all the horrors of it, there were so many people in Northern Ireland who were extremely kind to us, despite all the difficulties. I've got a very soft spot for every part of Northern Ireland, people in Northern Ireland to this day, and anything about it worries me very greatly. I did enjoy my time there in a curious way, although at other times it was a most terrible responsibility. A job in which one does what one can. One does what one can, but one did worry. I always used to find I worried very much. Particularly I found always when we were having soldiers killed, innocent members of the community killed, and of course members of the RUC and the police when they were killed. It was an awful experience. One began to feel personally responsible for it. Many one wasn't really, but one couldn't help feeling it.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw22:38

I don't

Presenter23:04

I don't want to list all your appointments, there have been many, but your present one as Home Secretary. Another appalling job? No, a fascinating job, dealing with people, always with individual cases of all sorts and kinds. A very remarkable department, one of the oldest departments of state. I think somewhat unfairly looked at, because the responsibilities of the Home Office for people's lives, with the police service, the prison service, with immigration, and a whole host of other responsibilities, is a very great one. It's a fascinating job. It has many difficulties, but I wouldn't exchange it for any other job in the Government. A job in which you cannot often allow yourself to become emotionally involved. The danger is you do if you are an emotional person, and I make no secret of the fact. Of course, I am emotional. I feel emotionally about issues, and particularly about people. I've always felt about people. People mean a great deal to my life, and the people who work for me and people around me mean a great deal to me, always have. And therefore, I do get emotionally involved in that sort of way.

Presenter24:10

Another record, please. And this time, leading almost straight from that. One needs, I think, when one would be alone, something serious which would remind one of many occasions, both joyful and very sad. And I go, as I find, frequently to weddings, and I go frequently last to memorial services, and almost always I have the twenty-third Psalm by Crimond at both. So at the same time you could get a memory of happy days and sad days at the same time, and of a lot of people that you had known in various ways. And so what better from that than the twenty-third Psalm, Crimond, sung by the Glasgow Orpheus Choir under Sir Hugh Robert.

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In our stores, free.

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The Criminal Setting of the Twenty Third Psalm by the Glasgow Orpheus Choir.

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How do you like to relax, Mr. Whitehall? Do you still play a lot of golf? I play a certain amount. Not nearly as much as I would like to do. I like to relax at at home with my family. I'm very interested in my farm, which I have a share in a partnership just beside where I live in Cumbria. I'm very interested in the animals and the cattle we have there. I find the countryside a great relaxation. I like country sports and I like country ideas. I'm very fond of them all. That's really the way I like to relax. You do a bit of shooting? Yes, I do, and I'm very fond of it. Do you collect anything?

Presenter26:20

No, I don't collect anything. I'm always told by my wife now that I ought to collect ties. I keep on being given ties as various mementos of various visits and the rest. I ought to collect them all and remember what they all are. Well, I've got them all the ties. Perhaps I might start doing that. Peter Carrington, they tell me, on his foreign travels, collects walking sticks. So I thought possibly ties might be rather a good idea. Yes. I haven't up to now. You have a reputation as a first-class after-dinner speaker. Do you enjoy that sort of lighter side of oratory? Well, I'm glad to hear that somebody suggests I can do it. I wasn't so sure myself whether I could. But yes, I enjoy it. I rely too much on one or two stories. I ought to have a much wider repertoire than I have, and I haven't. However, I discovered that even the people who've heard them before, if they do enjoy them, don't seem to mind hearing them again. Oh, no, there's no friend like an old friend. And the awful relief is that if it's worked once, it's usually going to work again, unless for some reason or other you simply fail to tell it properly. I have failed to tell some of my best stories totally for some unknown reason. I just haven't felt like it that evening. But one does enjoy it, and uh I don't like doing it too often, because I think you

Presenter27:34

really devalue our own currency if you do it too often, and you will eventually do it not very well. One does try to do it as best one can. You have been very close and an adviser to several Prime Ministers, to Lord Hilm, mister Heath, misses Thatcher. Would you like to have a go yourself?

Presenter27:51

I suppose everybody in politics in a way would like to be Prime Minister, of course. But at the same time, I have served, as you rightly say, very closely in different capacities, three, and I do understand some of the terrible difficulties of the job. And, quite frankly, I realise the agonies that can be for being at the very top. I actually thoroughly enjoy the job I've got at the moment. I um enormous admirer of Margaret Thatcher, the present Prime Minister, and I've no desire to see her do anything other than remain Prime Minister for a very long time. And if she remains Prime Minister for a very long time, well then that makes it perfectly clear, as far as I'm concerned, that if I did have that ambition, it wouldn't happen, and therefore I don't think about it. Right.

Speaker 228:38

Your next trickle.

Presenter28:38

That comes back to the early days of the war again. I was an enormous admirer of the Crazy Gang. I've always had such an admiration for Flanningham and Allen, and I remember going one evening in nineteen forty

Presenter28:53

to one of their performances and we went to a party afterwards and they sang both the performance and afterwards at the party. Run, Rabbit, run. I've loved it ever since and I hope I may have it done.

Speaker 229:03

On the farm, every Friday, on the farm, is rabbit pie day. So every Friday that ever comes along, I get up early and sing this little song. Run, rabbit, run, rabbit, run.

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Bum rule.

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Vlanagan and Allen.

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As a practical farmer, you should have some ideas on looking after yourself on this desert island. Could you build yourself a bothy to live in?

Presenter29:39

I might have some ideas. I am the very world's worst person at looking after myself. I am the traditional non-handyman of all time. At least that's what my wife would tell you. And I have to admit it's pretty well true. I think my chances of building these things for myself are very limited indeed. No doubt I would try. I have a nasty feeling that what I built would probably fall down at a crucial moment, because I am as bad as that. But still, I would have to try, wouldn't I? You would have to put it up again. That's right, indeed.

Presenter30:09

It might fall down again, but I should have to try. But I should be very bad at it. Let's have no bones about that. You could do some cultivation? Yes. Can you cook?

Presenter30:18

Yes, but a very limited nature of cooking. I am I'm very good at boiling an egg, nothing better. But I couldn't go on doing that all the time, so I would have to cook some other things as well. Any ideas on getting away? How's your navigation?

Presenter30:29

Awful. I loathe the sea. I don't like going on the sea. So if I'm on an island surrounded by water, on the whole, I'd think I'd say, at my age, well, I would just stay here, unless somebody was kind enough to come and find me and take me away. I don't think I should try to go away. It would mean going on the sea, and I should hate that so much. I think you're right. And we've got your last record.

Presenter30:50

Uh the last record reminds me again of my youth and times when I used to first go to dances in Scotland, and that is the country dance, The Duke of Perth, by I think Jimmy Shannon junior. But I love the Duke of Perth, it's something I love dancing.

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The Duke of Perth by Jimmy Shamm Junior and his band.

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If you could take only one of the eight discs you've played us, which would it be?

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I'm quite clear that I would really like dreaming of a white Christmas. If I didn't say so, my wife would never forgive me, and I therefore think it it is actual I would like, and for the second reason it makes it even more certain. Right. And you're allowed to take one luxury to the island, any one thing of no practical use that you would enjoy having? Curiously enough, I would like to take a plastic bath. I simply love lying in a hot bath. Nothing do I enjoy more. I know it sounds silly, because if the sea outside the island was fairly warm, one ought to bathe, but I still like lying in a bath. And I like listening to music lying in a bath. And these tunes have reminded me if I could have a plastic bath and lie in it, listening to some of that music, that's what I would really rather enjoy.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw32:47

But he's chosen.

Presenter32:54

Yes, and we'll lay on by some solar system we'll lay on a hot water system.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw32:57

I should

Presenter32:59

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare. I would like curiously an autobiography called The World that Treadmade, written by Bernard Darwin. Bernard Darwin was the great golf writer of the time, used to write on golf in the Times, had a very wide literary skill, well outside the game. And his autobiography reminds me of my golf days at Cambridge and of golf generally, of golf courses. And this would be a great memory for me, and a man I had enormous admiration for. The World That Fred Made by Bernard Darwin

Presenter33:32

And thank you, William Whitelaw, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much. I thoroughly enjoyed really having to find out what I really did like. Goodbye, everyone.

Rt Hon William Whitelaw33:49

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.