Daniel Massey

Daniel Massey0:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty one, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:27

This week, our castaway is the actor Daniel Massey.

Presenter0:31

Dan, you've appeared in a number of musical plays and films. We know you can sing and dance. Do you play an instrument?

Presenter0:36

Well, I I used to play the piano when I was very young, but unfortunately I gave it up when I was too young. But I do play the bongo drums. Well done. Frequently? Well, not as frequently as I would like because it annoys the neighbours, but it di it's a tremendous release. Do you play records a lot? Oh, incessantly. Do you have a big collection?

Presenter1:01

Uh well, when I say incessantly, I play an awful lot of music in the car now, because I'm travelling about a lot and in the car, and I find cassettes and and the reproduction of sound is so

Presenter1:12

good now in in in cars. And I have a lot of uh cassettes, but a c but my main

Presenter1:18

Collection is in records and I play it incessantly. Did you find it very difficult to cut it down to just eight discs?

Speaker 31:20

Did the

Presenter1:26

Did you have any kind of say this?

Speaker 31:26

You're a sad

Daniel Massey1:27

Yeah.

Presenter1:29

I've been told that before. Did you have any plan in cutting it down?

Presenter1:34

No, I went really on

Presenter1:37

On feeling and on records that I associated with or that kind of inspired me in some way or that I remember. What's the first one?

Presenter1:50

The first one is Tschaikovsky.

Presenter1:53

The Little Russian Symphony, number two. Which part of it? The Last Movement. Why'd you choose this work?

Presenter1:59

Because I love Russian music. I love Shaikhovsky.

Presenter2:04

And

Presenter2:04

It's music that would wake me up on a desert island and I would

Presenter2:10

I would love listening to it.

Presenter3:08

Prior to the last movement of the Tchaikovsky Little Russian Symphony, No. Two, Bernard Heitink with the Concertgebau Orchestra.

Presenter3:16

Well, first things first, Dan, you are a Londoner, born in London. Yes. But on the male side, from a distinguished transatlantic family. Your father is that excellent actor, Raymond Massey. Where's he nowadays? Well, he lives now in California, where he's been for the last, I suppose, fifteen years or so, even more. When he went out to do Doctor Kildare, play Doctor Gillespie and the Kildare series. But he was born, of course, Canadian. And with a very celebrated and distinguished Canadian brother.

Presenter3:46

Yes, Vincent. Mm-hmm. Vincent, who d died, of course, who was the uh Governor General of Canada and was at one point High Commissioner for Canada in London. He was the first Canadian Governor General, is that right? I believe that's so. Yes. And of course your mother was an actress. My mother, yes. Adrian Alice. That's true to say she was,'cause she retired about twenty years ago now.

Daniel Massey4:02

Adrian Allen

Presenter4:06

Yes. Did you grow up with the inevitability that you were going to be an actor?

Presenter4:11

No, indeed, it wasn't really until I think I went to university and began to act at the uh A D C, the Amateur Dramatic Club. Yes, but you d had made your professional debut at the age of eight. Had I? Yes, you had. Where did you find that out and what was it? Did you not play Noel Guard's son in In Which We Serve? Oh, you're absolutely right. Of course I did.

Daniel Massey4:29

Did you not

Daniel Massey4:32

Uh

Presenter4:36

Of course I did.

Presenter4:37

I suppose I thought of that as being my amateur days. That's why when you said pa finally we should I get paid for it, but uh

Speaker 34:42

Surely you've got paid.

Presenter4:47

Uh to this day we don't know where the money is. How much was it? Well, it was said to be fifty pounds, which you see might be now, but with the rates of interest and things. Good heavens, yes. A a fortune, but we don't know where it is. Why didn't you get it? Well, I I must have got it, but I think they put it in some bank, and nobody to this day has has managed to find out where it is.

Daniel Massey4:55

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter5:06

Now part of your schooling was in the States, in Massachusetts. When you returned to this country you went to Eton. That must have been a great contrast. Oh, yes, it was. It was. It was uh quite a stark contrast. I I I think that perhaps because of my American

Daniel Massey5:14

Why?

Presenter5:21

connections that uh I never quite settled down at Eton.

Presenter5:26

And after Eton to Cambridge, to King's. Yes. What did you read? English literature.

Presenter5:31

Did you take part in university theatricals? You mentioned in passing the ADC.

Presenter5:36

I'm told that you did the whole lot. You did the Marlowe Society and the Footlights as well. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I failed my audition to the Amateur Dramatic Club.

Daniel Massey5:41

Yeah.

Presenter5:46

So I went.

Presenter5:47

To the Cambridge University Mumbas.

Presenter5:50

They were the other University Dramatic Society and they gave me a part in their

Presenter5:55

Tom Thumb the Great by Fielding.

Presenter5:58

And the president of the ADC, Gordon Gould, who was a charming American, came to see it and he saw that and offered me an enrolment in the ADC. So that's how I got into that. I mean, I've always been very sympathetic to people who can't do auditions. I've never passed one, I don't think. Were you hooked by now? Had you made up your mind you were going to be an actor? Well, I think by that time, by say the second year in, that we had our own theatre there, of course, and I was sort of.

Presenter6:29

kind of drawn towards it willy-nilly. I mean, what was in the blood was obviously coming out. Right. But it wasn't really until I left Cambridge that I thought

Presenter6:39

Well now, what am I going to do? And we did uh a review. The Cambridge Footlights Review was called Anything May and we did it at the Lillick Hammersmith, I remember. And um Melville Gillam, who was running the Connaught Theatre Worthing, the weekly repertory, came to see the show and he offered me a job at the Connaught Theatre Worthing. Right, well that's the beginning of your theatrical career. Let's break off the second record.

Daniel Massey7:07

Yeah.

Presenter7:09

My second record is Ravell, the piano concerto in G, played by Michelangeli and the Philharmonia. Which movement?

Presenter7:20

The slow movement.

Presenter8:14

part of the slow movement of the Ravel Piano Concerto in G major,

Presenter8:18

with Michelangeli as soloist. Well, now down from Cambridge with with a second in English literature. With a second, yes. Yes. Yes. Took to the Worthing Weekly Rep under the late Melville Gillam.

Presenter8:31

What was the first part you played there? I played Terry.

Presenter8:35

In Peril at End House by Agatha Christie, of course. Did you have some really unsuitable parts in wording?

Presenter8:44

Oh, surely I did, and parts that I was horrendously bad at. Indeed, the first four or five weeks of my time at the Conaut is why I will always be very grateful to Gilly, because he stood by me when any sane-minded man would have said, you know, get out and go gardening. I was really not

Presenter9:03

Not good, but I stumbled onto a part that that had some laughs in it and

Presenter9:07

From then on things got a lot better. That period at Worthing was broken by your American debut.

Presenter9:15

That's right. I went at the end

Presenter9:17

To New York for a short space of time. New York is a bracing place for an actor because it either works or it doesn't, but there's no half measures. And this did not work in spades. I mean, it was. How did this come about? Well, it was directed by a writer and a director called Garson Koenigan, who just achieved a great success with the production of uh The Diary of Anne Frank in New York. And this was the posthumous production of a play by Robert Sherwood called Small War on Murray Hill.

Daniel Massey9:37

Yeah.

Presenter9:49

About the American War of Independence, and they needed an English officer, and at that time.

Presenter9:55

They didn't seem to have a lot of English actors over there, so I was recruited and I went over there and played it and we rehearsed. And it was a a wonderful experience to work with Garson, who I admired very much and learnt a great deal from him. And we went out on tour and came into New York and sank pretty quickly. After how long? Ten days, I think, something like that. So back to Worthing? Back to Worthing. And it was weekly rep, really, except one week. Absolutely. I mean, I've gone from the street back to weekly rep. Very salutary, but very, very youthful.

Daniel Massey10:25

Absolutely.

Presenter10:33

Let's have your third record. What's that to be? My third record is the Schubert Great C Major Symphony, played by again by the Estimaburu.

Presenter10:44

Concert Gabau Orchestra.

Presenter10:47

Conducted by Bennett Hiting.

Presenter10:49

And you want to know what movement? I want to know why you choose it. Oh, why I choose it?

Presenter10:55

Well, I choose it because I have to have Schubert.

Presenter10:59

And I could have chose a massive music by Schubert, but The Great C Major is to me just full of Schubert's invention and gift for orchestration and melody, and it's just a superb piece of music. And now I'd like to know which one I stand.

Presenter11:18

It's a schizophrenia.

Presenter12:10

Part of the scherzo from the Schubert Symphony No. Nine, The Great, the Concertgebau Orchestra of Amsterdam conducted by Bernhard Heitink.

Presenter12:19

As is right and proper for a young actor, in your early years you did all sorts of jobs. Now you did quite a few musicals at the beginning of your career. I remember a review.

Presenter12:29

At the galley, what was that called? Living for Pleasure. Yes, with a fascinating opening chorus. Do you remember it?

Daniel Massey12:32

The f

Speaker 312:32

Uh

Presenter12:35

Living for pleasure, life's a song. They knew that a meal school for Joan Littlewood. Yes.

Daniel Massey12:38

Yeah.

Speaker 312:38

After people

Daniel Massey12:38

Yeah.

Daniel Massey12:39

They knew that a

Presenter12:42

That was fascinating. I wish I could work with Joan now. In those days, I was very green, and she threw me a bit, but she was a genius, Joan. And you started at Stratford East? Yes, in a musical by Wolf Mankowitz, with music lyrics by David Henneker and Monty Norman. And it was called. Make Me an Offer. And interspersed with the musicals, some distinguished classical productions. You were in a production of The School for Scandal, directed by John Gielberg. Oh, yes. At the Haymarket. Yes, yes.

Daniel Massey13:10

Oh yes.

Presenter13:14

You did several classics at the Haymarket. I did uh The Rivals again with with Ralph and Margaret Rutherford. That was a wonderful ex experience to work with William Rutherford. Ralph uh I found him quite extraordinary. I I learned an enormous amount.

Speaker 313:25

Reverend

Daniel Massey13:25

Yeah.

Presenter13:33

uh from acting with him and and watching him and and listening to him and whenever I could drawing him out about himself. He hates talking about himself, as you probably know, and it was almost impossible to get him to.

Presenter13:45

Every now and again he would talk, but about the the scene we were doing and he would help me on on

Presenter13:52

He said something very interesting to me one day. He said, You must always go just under the target. Don't hit it. Always make them think you've got something more.

Presenter14:04

We were talking about, I suppose, about sentimental comedy, about Sheridan and that sort of thing. And I remember thinking at the time, it's all very well for you.

Presenter14:10

You know, but but uh us mortals have you know we've got to fire all the cannons we've got. But he's in a way he's right of course and I I saw it. I saw the reason behind it. And in between those Haymarket productions you went off to Hollywood to play Noel Card in a film. Yes I did. Yes I did. That was a great challenge because everybody knew what Noel Card looked like and sounded like. Now how did you tackle it?

Daniel Massey14:29

Yeah.

Presenter14:36

I knew Noel not terribly well, but I I knew him and when they asked me to go and see them about it, I talked myself out of it very quickly by saying, Well, I don't look like Noel, and I don't know whether Noel knows anything about this, but I should think he'd be shocked to death that I'm sitting here thinking of of murdering his his life story. But anyway, eventually uh I think they went to talk to him and uh it was decided to give me a test.

Presenter15:00

So I did a three-day test and Bill Fairchild, who'd written the script of the projected film, which is about Gertrude Lawrence with Juli Andrews. Called Star. Star member writing. That's right.

Daniel Massey15:09

Start our number.

Presenter15:10

And um Bill came over and we did a test and then there was the agonizing business of waiting to hear and about six or eight weeks later they came through and sure enough o off we off we went and I went over to California and I was there for about nine or ten months. It was a wonderful job. Let's break off for record number four. What now? Oh well now this is Sebelius, the Perlis and Millisande suite that he wrote, conducted by Beecham. I would like really the death of Milisonde from that suite.

Presenter16:42

The death of Melissande from Pellias and Melissande by Sibelius. The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra was conducted by Sir Thomas Beacham.

Presenter16:50

Now Dan, in the early seventies you did several more musicals, including Gigi in the States and in London there was a musical version of Rookery Nook. Oh yeah. Popkiss it. Popkiss, yeah. I don't remember that. Well it it it you didn't remember because it vanished rather quickly. Rather quickly. Well it did. It was it was funny. I I mean I in a way I loved doing it, but I'm afraid that the problem always with

Daniel Massey17:00

I don't remember that.

Daniel Massey17:07

The quickly.

Presenter17:16

With farce and music is that they mix like oil and water. It's just not possible in some peculiar way. Since then, Dan, a new agent and a change of gear to more serious plays. You played Little Stretchy in Bloomsbury. That was a splendid character part. Yes. Yes. Oh, a fascinating man. Were you coached by anyone who knew him? Well, I worked on it with the aid of Michael Holroyd's extraordinary biography of Stretchy, which had come out two or three years before. Peter Luke had written the play based, I think, largely on material in that book. But I learned really.

Presenter17:50

Most of what I n know about Lytton from Dady Rylands. And Dady Rylands, who was my supervisor at King's, knew Lytton very well and was taught, I think, by Lytton when uh he was a young man. And I had access to Dadie's photograph album and I saw a lot of uh photographs of Lytton and Dady I talked to him about how he walked and how he spoke and Dady

Presenter18:15

Who has that um rather high-pitched voice, they all, you know, they do. And it all seems to stem from that sort of uh litten voice. I mean, the litt the stretchy voice is a very kind of high-pitched right up to her, you know, and and and uh and daily being a very dramatic soul anyway, was able to transmit a spirit of what the man was and looked like and how he sounded, and so I started from there. Now, the play introduced you to your wife, Penelope Wilton, but it was a failure commercially.

Presenter18:48

Since then you've played some very interesting parts at the National. How do you like working for a big subsidized company? I like it very much because it is it is the only place now where it is possible to play some of the plays which which you really want to cut your teeth on as an actor.

Daniel Massey18:54

I like it very much.

Daniel Massey19:07

And the player.

Speaker 319:08

Yeah.

Daniel Massey19:08

Yeah.

Presenter19:10

On the whole, you have done very little, Shakespeare, haven't you?

Presenter19:12

Yes, I haven't done a great deal of Shakespeare. I would love to do I would love to do more. He's really the most difficult of all, and the m and I suppose really the most rewarding of all.

Presenter19:23

Let's have another record. We've got to number five.

Presenter19:26

The fifth record is Erlgana, and the disc is Concert by the Sea and the track that I would like to hear is Red Top, which is a little masterpiece.

Presenter20:40

Aragana playing red top.

Presenter20:43

Now at the National, in the current repertoire, you're playing Jack Tanner in Shaw's Man and Superman, for which you've grown that magnificent Shavian beard. Now in Man and Superman you're playing the Don Duan in Hell scene, which is another two hours on the running time.

Presenter20:58

How long yeah, it's only seventy minutes, you know. Is it? Yes.

Daniel Massey20:59

Yeah.

Speaker 320:59

Yeah.

Daniel Massey21:02

Is it?

Presenter21:03

Well, I hate to say it seems long. Well, when I say, when I say that the third act in its entirety is about an hour and a half. Yes, that's true. That's true.

Speaker 321:13

Yeah.

Presenter21:14

How long did it take you to learn that whole part of of Tanner? It is a gigantic part. Yes, it is. I was very lucky because I was in uh Hungary in the summer doing a film for two months and uh I learned the Don Juan in Hell while I was there. Christopher had cut it before'cause we've taken

Presenter21:32

Quite a bit of time out of it. And Christopher Morin, who directed it, gave me the cut copy and I took it to Hungary with me. And so I learnt that while I was there. And then when we started rehearsing, we did two and a half weeks or three weeks on the Don Juan sequence before we started on the play. And although we rehearsed for three months altogether, I then started to learn the play as we were rehearsing the play, and then Christopher would keep the Don Juan on the boil by giving us a an afternoon or a morning each week or and of course you're you're playing on an open stage which means you've got no handy prompter.

Daniel Massey22:01

Yeah.

Speaker 322:01

But

Presenter22:06

No, no, it's it's performance without a net with a vengeance. And you're playing opposite your wife, Penelope Wilton. Yes, yes, which is which is wonderful,'cause we we work together I think very well there. So w we know each other very well and we enjoy working together and she's a a joy to work with'cause you don't have to ask questions or expect answers. Somehow it just is there. It's a wonderful thing. Are there any particular roles that you have an ambition to play, just in case somebody listening has some ideas for you?

Speaker 322:34

I have some ideas for you.

Presenter22:37

Well, I want I want to play Othello again and I want to play Serrano de Belgerac. I'm dying to do Serrano. I've no it's so difficult to find a translation. I think this wonderful man Tony Harrison who uh translates from the French so well, if he would do it, if he would do a translation of Serrano, that would be wonderful. Well send him a postcard. Well I will. And in the meantime let's have record number six.

Daniel Massey22:54

Also

Presenter23:01

Now, record number six are well.

Presenter23:04

This is Mozart and I thought, well, if I have a Mozart, I must have operatic Mozart. So it's from Cussifantute, and it is the moment when the girls say goodbye to those wicked boys in the first act. In the first act.

Speaker 323:44

Mercy on

Presenter24:15

The trio Suave Sio Ilvento from the first act of Cosifantutti sung by Elizabeth Schwartkopf, Christa Ludwig and Walter Berry.

Presenter24:25

Now apart from your very early appearance in Which We Serve, that dates you and your Hollywood appearance as Neil Card in Star, we haven't talked about films. How important a part have they played in your career?

Daniel Massey24:31

Uh

Speaker 324:31

Uh

Daniel Massey24:31

Yeah.

Speaker 324:31

Yeah.

Daniel Massey24:31

Hollywood.

Presenter24:37

Well

Presenter24:38

They've helped pay the bills.

Presenter24:40

What was the Hungarian picture you were talking about?

Presenter24:43

That was a film called Escape to Victory, which is directed by John Houston with Michael Kaine and Sylvester Stallone and Max von Siedau. It's a prisoner of war escape picture with a slight twist in the tail. It's about football matches and Pele's in it. Bobby Moore, Mike Sammerby and a lot of the Ipswich team are in it too. I'm so delighted they're doing so well this year. I haven't. No, it's not. It's coming out next year, I think. But I'm the cinema is a very strange thing to me. I mean, I find walking on a stage a breeze compared to working on the screen. I mean, I was working with Mike Kaine last last summer, and Mike's got this wonderful ability to get in front of the camera as soon as they start action. Mike's he loves it.

Daniel Massey25:02

I'm so delighted.

Speaker 325:05

I have a

Presenter25:27

I get in front of the camera and I'm like a an aspen leaf. I'm trembling with terror.

Presenter25:32

You know, because if you it it it's you don't know when you're gonna be asked to do it.

Presenter25:36

What about those very ephemeral media of television and radio? How important are those? Oh, very.

Presenter25:42

They're all important, don't get me wrong, I'm not uh but particularly radio, I love uh radio is fascinating to me. I did a a lumber thing with uh Jane Morgan, Little Dorrit, the serialization of uh of the Dickens novel uh at the at the beginning of last year, which gave me great pleasure. I love doing that. And television too, tab I've had some wonderful work on television, wonderful work. But then that's different, you see, because you work it much more in sequence.

Speaker 326:04

Yeah.

Presenter26:04

The film is cut up into

Presenter26:07

Small little segments, and you may be there at eight in the morning and not work till five o'clock at night. By which time you know you've spent the day, you've probably had something to drink at lunch if you're stupid like me and you come to the thing at five o'clock.

Presenter26:22

Down the shoot. Record number seven. Number seven. Is Sinatra from uh an album called The Best of Old Blue Eyes.

Daniel Massey26:25

No's

Presenter26:31

And it's come rain o' come shine.

Presenter26:33

And I I want it really because Sinatra I grew up with and uh I mean I fumbled about with my first dates with Sinatra in the background and and I think that he is incomparably the greatest phraser of a popular song.

Presenter26:51

Of any one I know.

Speaker 226:53

You're gonna love me.

Speaker 226:57

Like nobody's loved me Come rain or come shine

Speaker 227:10

We'll be happy together

Speaker 227:13

Unhappy together now won't that be just fine?

Presenter27:22

Mr. Sinatra

Presenter27:24

Dan, tell me about your outdoor activities. Have you done any camping out at any time?

Presenter27:30

Ah.

Presenter27:31

Not much. Not much. Right. Handicraft. Can you n navigate small craft? Do you know about navigation? The funny thing about this is I was thinking about this, because I knew you would ask me these terrifying questions. I suppose it's slightly of uh a bit of a an escape to say I don't know till I try it. But what I do know is that as a soldier I lost the battalion several times in the possession of a compass up various waddies in Egypt. So I rather think that I may not be.

Presenter28:00

Terribly clever about that kind of thing. But there's nothing that concentrates uh a man's mind like blind panic. And I think it might well be that I would turn up Trumps, funnily enough. I should have to be somebody else there to applaud me when I do it. That's the end of the course.

Speaker 328:12

Are you trying to be somebody else?

Daniel Massey28:13

Uh

Presenter28:16

In theory, would you try to escape?

Presenter28:18

Yes.

Presenter28:19

is the answer to that guardedly, provided that there that there was no chance of my being killed or drowned.

Speaker 328:21

Probably.

Presenter28:27

You're asking a lot.

Presenter28:31

Let us leave it there. Just think it out and have your last record. Well, there's been a tremendous tussle here, but Beethoven's finally won through, as well he might.

Presenter28:46

I love the violin. I love Oestrach. I love this recording of the violin concerto. It has everything. It it it's joy and also contemplation and whatever. And it speaks for itself. And I would like the climax of the work.

Presenter30:04

The closing passage of the Beethoven Violin Concerto in D major.

Presenter30:09

David Oystrach with the French National Radio Orchestra conducted by Andre Clitons.

Presenter30:13

If you could take only one disc out of the eight you've played us, which would it be? I suppose it would be the Beethoven. You see, if it has to be one, that's really why the Beethoven is in there, because I suppose it encompasses more than any of the others of a total musical diet. And you're allowed to take one luxury, nothing of any practical use.

Presenter30:34

Well, I've thought a great deal about this.

Presenter30:38

How much wine am I allowed to take? As much as you reasonably feel you're going to need. Well, uh, like a hundred and forty four cases. A hundred and forty four cases by all means, of what?

Presenter30:47

God, well.

Presenter30:48

Volnay, nineteen seventy three. That will be seen too. And jolly good luck. And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare, which are already on the island.

Presenter30:58

Well

Presenter30:59

This is awfully difficult.

Presenter31:01

I have Shakespeare, so I have poetry and I have drama and I have

Speaker 331:05

Yeah.

Daniel Massey31:05

Yeah.

Presenter31:06

I think that I would take and I don't know how you can do this for me but I would like to take there is actually a selection of them but a selective James Egert Ego. There are nine volumes, nine glorious volumes of ego. Now we'll call that one work.

Daniel Massey31:17

There are not

Daniel Massey31:18

That's impossible.

Presenter31:22

You shall have the nine volumes of ego, because it is indeed one diary by that splendid dramatic critic, James Agott. You shall have that.

Daniel Massey31:23

The nine volume

Presenter31:31

I would have it. The reason I want it, I think, is because it's part of my business. He talks very interesting and fascinating about the period. It will remind me that critics are human beings, which indeed they are, and that there is cause for laughter and tears and constant interest. Yes, it is a glorious book. There's a delightful story that Agit tells when a friend of his heard that he was going to do his ninth and last volume of Ego, and the friend said, Will your ninth volume be Coral? And thank you, Daniel Massey, for letting us hear your desert island disc. Thank you, Roy. It's been a great pleasure.

Speaker 331:31

I was happy.

Speaker 331:50

I think it's

Speaker 332:06

And thank you.

Presenter32:12

Goodbye, everyone.

Daniel Massey32:20

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.