Sir John Tooley

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 20:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1980, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:30

On our desert island this week is the General Administrator of the Royal Opera House Covent Garden, Sir John Tooley.

Presenter0:36

So, John, I believe you once had ambitions to be a singer yourself. Oh, yes, I did, and they were very strong. But, um, fortunately I came to a conclusion early enough that I hadn't sufficient talent to have a successful career and abandoned it. Did you get as far as singing in public?

Presenter0:51

No, not professionally, but I did sing in public purely as an amateur during the time that I was having singing lessons and so on.

Presenter1:00

Did you play an instrument as well?

Presenter1:02

Well, I used to play the oboes, and I I've been through two phases in my life. One, when I took up the oboe, I suppose, at the age of thirteen, I decided this was absolutely to be my life. I was going to be the second Leon Goosens. But then, somehow or other I got caught up with the human voice, and that took over, and brought me to the point, I'm afraid, of a negative decision.

Presenter1:22

You have a miserly allowance of just eight records. Was it very difficult narrowing them down? Oh, absolutely impossible. It's one of the worst tasks I've ever been given. What's the first one on your list? Well, the first one is a work by Michael Tippett, whose music means a great deal to me. And the work that I've chosen is the Concerto for Double String Orchestra and Part of the Last Movement. And I've chosen this because I find it music with a strong visionary sense, a music with great spiritual joy and, above all, optimism. And I feel maybe I should have that in my solitude.

Presenter2:58

The closing passage of Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra, The Academy of Saint Martin in the Fields, directed by Neville Mariner.

Presenter3:06

What part of the country do you come from?

Presenter3:09

I was born in Kent and

Presenter3:12

If I get it right, since I was born east of the River Medway, I am actually a man of Kent. I see.

Presenter3:17

You were at Repton, then Maudlin. What did you read?

Presenter3:21

Well, I read classics to start with, and then turned over to history rather later. Did you take a lot of part in the musical activities of the college?

Presenter3:31

Well, yes, a lot. And and a lot in the university itself. And uh i in those days I was still

Presenter3:37

Playing the Oba, and so I was playing in orchestras and playing chamber music and so on. Had you any clear idea what you wanted to do?

Presenter3:44

Well, I'd got this very clear idea that actually I wanted to be a professional musician, and by then singing was foremost in my life. But I'd also realized that I probably hadn't got the talent to have a very good career as a singer, and I was already beginning to think about going into musical management. I use that expression to describe a whole range of possible activities. What in fact happened when you came down? Well, when I came down, I was faced with the possibility, perhaps, of going to work for a an artist agent or work for a firm of music publishers. But what I really decided I had to do was to get some managerial experience. You did, in fact, do some national service, first of all. I'd done that, and wanted to learn to certain amount there. But as I thought about going into musical management, I realised that I was absolutely green manager, and I really didn't know very much.

Presenter4:36

And decided that I really ought to go and get this experience, and in fact, went into industry for a time, but with the absolute clear.

Speaker 24:42

With it

Presenter4:43

intention on my part to leave it after a given period of time. Where did you get your industrial experience? I joined the Ford Motor Company in Dagenham. Yes. And at one moment I was actually faced with a choice between going there or joining a firm of stockbrokers.

Presenter4:58

and eventually decided that Dagenham was going to give me the experience I was looking for. And after Dagenham?

Presenter5:04

I went to the Guildhall School of Music. I answered an advertisement in the Times, and I was lucky enough to be appointed, and that was in nineteen fifty two. As secretary. As secretary. A college with a very good reputation for opera.

Speaker 25:14

Yeah.

Presenter5:18

Yes, and and I was extremely fortunate in having Edric Kundal as principal, a splendid musician, whom I much admired and for whom I had great affection as a person and as a musician. And this began to shape my life, really, in the way that I wanted it to be shaped, because opera, as you've rightly said, was a predominant feature of Guildhall School of Music life in those days.

Presenter5:40

And then from the Guildhall you went to the Royal Opera House. That's right. That was how many years ago? That was twenty five years ago. Well, we'll try to cram in some of the events of that twenty five years, but first, before we try your second record.

Presenter5:54

I have to have some music of Wagner.

Presenter5:57

and Meister singer I would rank high amongst my most treasured operas and from that, please may I have the quintet.

Sir John Tooley6:18

I should see.

Sir John Tooley7:04

Uh

Presenter7:04

Part of the quintet from the Master Singers of Nuremberg.

Presenter7:08

From a recording conducted by Rudolf Kempe.

Presenter7:11

So, nineteen fifty five to the Royal Opera House Assistant to Sir David Webster. An easy man to get on with? Well, I found him incredibly so. I think this is not a view shared by many, because David was an extremely shy, withdrawn person.

Presenter7:28

But he and I developed a marvellous rapport, and from the very beginning it seemed to me that there was the possibility of a very fruitful collaboration.

Presenter7:40

He was a person who believed very much in the sink or swim methods of life and.

Presenter7:48

I was given a few directions about what to do. Things somehow seemed to happen between us, and this was very good. Was he good at deputing authority? He gave you scope. Oh, yes, tremendous scope.

Speaker 27:54

Yeah.

Presenter7:59

I mean, for example, I'd been at Kaufmangarten, I suppose, for about two months.

Presenter8:05

and he and Nanette De Valwa had been to Moscow to negotiate the visit of the Bolshoi Bally in the following year, and when he came back he said, though I've started the negotiations, um a lot more work to do, and in any event I haven't dealt with the actual organization of the visit. That's all yours.

Presenter8:24

A marvellous experience for me. Yes, of course. Absolutely marvellous. One is inclined to forget that the Opera House is also the home of the Royal Ballet. Was that an equal interest as far as you were concerned? You were interested in dancing. Throughout my life I'd seen a great deal of Bally before I actually went to the Opera House, as well as Opera, of course.

Speaker 28:24

How about Uh

Speaker 28:27

Yeah.

Presenter8:41

Now from assistant to Sir David, you became Deputy General Administrator, and ten years ago

Presenter8:48

You became the boss. Did you take over the reins with any crusading spirit? Was there any major reform you wanted to make?

Presenter8:57

I suppose the thing that appealed to me more strongly than anything else I mean, leaving aside the whole question of artistic standards, because I take that as red. I mean what I'm forever saying is today we may be good, but to morrow we've got to be better.

Presenter9:11

But I believe that the thing that fired me most at that time was to get much wider dissemination of what we were doing to many people who could never come to Coffengarden because of the place they lived or for other reasons. And equally I was anxious to break down the belief that Coffengarden was an elitist establishment, one created only for the rich and the privileged.

Presenter9:35

and that it was a place accessible to all. It has become, of course, more and more a place for the rich.

Presenter9:41

That is is it's one of the sad facts of life. Well, yes, th that is true because of the way in which we've had to put up seat prices to cope with inflation. But equally there have been a lot of other moves which have made it more accessible. The problems are a supreme excessive. And the friends of Kaufengarden do a great deal for the young through their subsidy to

Sir John Tooley9:54

Indeed, yes.

Presenter10:01

young friends, which helps them a great deal in the purchase of tickets.

Presenter10:05

But it's not only a question of money, I suggest it's also a question of breaking down the feeling that there is great formality in the house, and that it is a house in which you might not feel at home, you might not feel comfortable.

Presenter10:18

And I think we have done a good deal to break down that feeling. Yes, indeed. And of course the activities of the Opera House are seen much more frequently on television. Yes, and on radio, of course, too.

Presenter10:30

The time when opera makes the news is is when there is drama. An artist has fallen ill and someone else who knows the role has to be flown in from somewhere. Do you remember any particularly awkward incidents in that book?

Presenter10:42

I think one of the most horrendous occasions was when we were doing a performance of Aida. Alberto Arredo was the conductor, Tucci was singing Aida, and Radimez was ill.

Presenter10:56

And we'd arranged for a replacement Radimez to fly in.

Presenter11:00

He unfortunately missed the aeroplane, and there was absolutely no prospect of him arriving in Coffee Garden even if we postponed the start for half an hour. And I vividly remember having to go to see Miss Tucci in her dressing-room at about five to seven, as she was sitting there made up for Aida, to tell her that we were terribly sorry, but that we were now going to sing Tosca at half-past seven.

Presenter11:25

She took it fairly well took it marvellously, and so did Aradia and Charles Craig came in at very short notice to sing Cabarodossi.

Presenter11:33

And we did it in blacks and it was a splendid performance. What's your third record?

Presenter11:38

I do need to take some chamber music with me. I find great spiritual refreshment in listening to chamber music, and I listen to it as often as I can, frequently late at night, after performances at Cotton Garden.

Presenter11:52

Choice incredibly difficult, but I eventually settled on the Schubert octet, and from that the Adager, which contains one of Schubert's most unforgettable tunes.

Presenter12:58

The adagio from the Schubert Octet, played by members of the Malaws Ensemble.

Presenter13:04

Everyone has his favorite operas and ballets and

Presenter13:08

Nobody is going to agree completely with the repertoire chosen. It must be tedious when people are nagging you the whole time with why do you have so few French operas, why do you have so many German operas? and all that sort of thing. Is this a a sort of rather constant worry?

Presenter13:22

I don't find it a worry. I'm happy that people feel that they actually want to express opinions, and I would be much happier to have letters from people saying that they would prefer to have a different balance in the repertory than to hear nothing at all from them. What is obviously not always understood by the public at large is what actually goes into the making of the repertory, and that what actually finally emerges in any one year is not necessarily what you first planned. It could be that lack of money has forced you to make changes in your earlier plans. Equally, singers whom you wanted for a particular opera are not available at the time that you want to do it. You decide that you can't cast it well enough, and therefore you'd abandon that particular opera and replace it with another, which might have the ultimate effect of changing the balance somewhat from that which you originally wanted. How far do you plan ahead ordinarily?

Presenter14:17

We try to keep at least three years absolutely firm, and I like to have the fourth and fifth year ahead in pencil, with at least the new production settled, major revival settled, and the major singers for those particular operas also, if not contracted, certainly very firmly pencilled and ideally inked in. And of course it's tremendously difficult to to estimate expenses three years ahead, or let alone five years ahead.

Presenter14:46

How many operas are there in the repertoire?

Presenter14:49

Well, in any one year, I mean, this is one of the great problems we face at the moment, that the operatic content of the programme is actually too low. Until about four or five years ago, we were maintaining about twenty-five operas a year, remembering that the ballet has an equal status with the opera and is occupying the other half of the programme. But now we're down to about nineteen or twenty, and this we are very disturbed about. You have an obligation, of course, to commission contemporary works, and these are often not very productive financially.

Presenter15:22

But it must be done. That is true. We must do it. I think it's essential that a place like Coffin Garden does not become a museum. I think that everybody who works in an opera house needs the stimulus of new works, new ideas.

Presenter15:36

And we've had various plans which have kept at least one contemporary opera a year in the repertory. That was new. That's fallen a little bit by the wayside through lack of money, but we now have plans for this decade which I hope will put that original plan back into being again.

Presenter15:51

Your fourth record, what's that, Lisa John?

Presenter15:53

One of the things I must have on

Presenter15:56

This Desert Island is a love duet. One of my great passions in life is the music of Balios.

Presenter16:03

And therefore I go to the love duet from the Trojans, sung by John Vickers and Josephine Veazey, with the Royal Opera House Orchestra conducted by Conan Davies. And this revives many memories for me of a great opera, the performances of which on a professional stage were actually pioneered by Coffee Garden in the second half of the fifties, and it was demonstrated then that this was a completely viable work and that both parts of it could be played in one evening.

Sir John Tooley16:35

He last failed.

Sir John Tooley17:18

I see.

Presenter17:34

The love duet to The Trojans by Berlius, sung by John Vickers and Josephine Veazey.

Presenter17:42

I just know that dreaded

Presenter17:44

question of of of inflation came into the conversation talking about trying to to work ahead

Presenter17:50

Opera and ballet, obviously two of the most extravagant arts, have to be heavily subsidized.

Presenter17:56

Your words recently may not have got them quite right. Covent Garden is the poor man of world opera.

Presenter18:04

That is snow.

Presenter18:05

And I said this because.

Presenter18:09

Coffin garden is being subsidized in a manner which by English standards is extremely high, and I would also add that within

Presenter18:19

the context of the development of subsidy in this country from the state I mean progress has been very rapid, but the tragedy is that it is still insufficient and leaves Coffin Garden in receipt of a subsidy about half that paid to any comparable houses in Europe.

Presenter18:40

And in addition to that, of course, we undertake many more performances than the average European house, inasmuch as we have the Royal Opera and we have two companies of the Royal Ballet. I mean, last year, for example, we generated nearly six hundred performances in London, in the United Kingdom, and abroad.

Presenter18:58

Which is infinitely more than a house like Munich would perform, where you would expect to have about three hundred and twenty performances per annum.

Speaker 319:06

There I

Presenter19:07

How much subsidy do you get from

Presenter19:09

Private sources from industry.

Presenter19:12

Well, that's been growing. But it's still I mean, it's an absolutely essential part of our lives, and a very welcome part, but it only amounts to about three per cent of our total expenditure.

Presenter19:23

But having said that, I must stress there are certain things which would never have happened if the private patron was not around. The proms are a supreme example of that.

Presenter19:34

Is more international cooperation possible that you share productions with Paris, with Hamburg?

Presenter19:40

Well, this is something we endlessly talk about. I mean that the real problem is the theory is beautiful, but the practice is incredibly difficult.

Sir John Tooley19:45

Yeah.

Presenter19:47

You can, for example, borrow a production from an Italian house, you put it up on your stage, the firemen come in to make their familiar check of its fireworthiness and find the whole thing goes up in smoke because the fireproofing standards of Italy are not those of Great Britain.

Speaker 220:02

Because the file

Presenter20:06

And there are countless problems. But I I believe that more can be done. We're always striving to do more. For example, our production of Peter Grimes is being used by Paris this year.

Presenter20:18

And there are various other exchanges of that kind going on. I have several conversations in hand for sharing other productions.

Presenter20:25

So, back to music. What's your fifth record to be?

Presenter20:29

Verdi, please Verdi one of the greatest of all operatic composers very much part of one's life if one is immersed in operas I am.

Presenter20:40

Troy's again incredibly difficult, but I think one of Verde's finest hours was that for King Philip in Don Carlo, Ella Jeremiah Mamont, and I would very much like to have that sung by Boris Christoph, please.

Speaker 321:01

Lord Tristan

Sir John Tooley21:08

Yeah.

Sir John Tooley21:12

Gold summer.

Presenter21:57

King Philip's aria from Don Carlo, sung by Boris Christophe.

Presenter22:03

Now, having depressed ourselves with money difficulties in the art, let's talk about some of the good constructive things that are happening, for example, the extension and enlargement of the Opera House for a start.

Presenter22:14

Well, we're making a lot of progress in that direction and um

Presenter22:20

While the first programme is not going to answer all our problems by any means, it is going to make a significant difference to life.

Presenter22:27

For example, at the moment the Royal Ballet rehearses all the time in Baron's Court, and only comes into the theatre when it's actually on the stage. Before it goes on stage it does class in the pit lobby and the foyer on carpet, which is an absolute absolute disaster. I mean, in fact, the artist's doing bar work.

Presenter22:43

Equally, the Royal Opera, in order to find a large rehearsal stage, has to go down the commercial road to what was the old Troxy Cinema, which is a good forty five minute journey from Covent Garden.

Presenter22:55

And

Presenter22:56

With the first phase of development, we will, for the first time in our lives, have a rehearsal area equal in size to the stage actually on the Coffin Garden site.

Presenter23:05

Which means that most of the operas can actually be rehearsed there, and can be rehearsed concurrently with other rehearsals going on the stage.

Presenter23:13

Equally, when the ballet is rehearsing on the stage in the morning, not only will the opera be rehearsing in its own studio, but at the end of the morning, if the ballet wishes to continue to rehearse, it can then go upstairs to its own studios, as opposed to trailing all the way back to Barron's Court, which it has to do at the moment.

Presenter23:31

And there are a lot of other advantages. There are better dressing rooms for

Presenter23:36

Some of the community, there are better wardrobe facilities. The chorus at last has a decent rehearsal room of its own, and it will begin to transform life. And there's the development of the Turningside, of course. I mean, the the Palace Manchester will now be able to take your big productions. Well, indeed, which is which is a very, very significant development. I talked earlier about dissemination, and of course, this is also the fulfilment of one of my ambitions then, that the Royal Opera and the Royal Ballet should be able to go to a city like Manchester, the centre of which is within one hour's drive for about ten million people, and it's a very decent chunk of the country's population.

Presenter24:14

And it also has the advantage of giving us a good stage on which we can present our productions well, but also gives us more performance outlets. So you're optimistic about it all? Yes, but money is the big problem again. All these things cost money.

Presenter24:33

The problem is that many of these ideas were developed during the booming sixties.

Presenter24:40

When everybody thought that the bonanza was round the corner, which of course sadly it never was.

Presenter24:46

But in spite of that, we must go on, and while there is a great belt tightening process going on, we've got to find the means of survival, but at the same time not let the growth

Presenter25:04

We got to record number six now. Haydn remains one of my.

Presenter25:09

Favourite composers. The choice, as you know only too well, is absolutely endless. A composer of such invention in everything that he in every medium that he touched

Presenter25:21

But in spite of that problem, I have eventually decided that I would like the Largo from his Eighty Eighth Symphony.

Presenter25:29

One of those heavenly tunes that he wrote.

Presenter26:32

The Largo from Haydn's Symphony No. eighty eight in G, The Concertgebau Orchestra of Amsterdam conducted by Colin Davies.

Presenter26:41

What's your next record to John? Let's go straight into that.

Presenter26:45

I must take one song with me.

Presenter26:48

The range of songs is so wide that it was incredibly difficult, again, to make up one's mind. But I eventually decided that as I was lying there on a starlit evening, that perhaps the most appropriate song not least because it also happens to be one of Schumann's most beautiful songs, one of the many that he wrote for his beloved Clara, would be Mein Schoener Stern.

Presenter27:11

in which the poet talks about this beautiful star, and he says, as far as I remember, as you gaze down upon me, don't come down to me, but lift me, please, up into the heavens. That I would like.

Sir John Tooley27:27

With a stamp.

Sir John Tooley27:30

Peace Peace.

Sir John Tooley27:35

Nichtenkem Babturdi.

Sir John Tooley28:00

We both feel melted.

Sir John Tooley28:10

Mine fur

Presenter28:20

Schumann's Mein Schoener Stern, sung by Peter Schreier.

Presenter28:26

Now, a brief examination in your aptitude for being a castaway apart from lying there staring up at the stars. Have you many outdoor interests? Could you look after yourself?

Presenter28:36

Well, yes, I could. I'm actually quite practical. Yes. Um I have some cooking ability and I can actually make things. Like a shelter? Oh, yes. That wouldn't present particular problems to me.

Speaker 228:43

Uh

Sir John Tooley28:43

Like a shelter?

Presenter28:47

Because one of the things that happened to me when I was a prep school boy was that we were taught to do all sorts of things. Some of these I think absolutely useless for a desert island, like building bridges across rivers. But none the less it gave you some practice at actually putting things together, even if it only be bits of wood and bits of string. Do you know anything about small craft?

Presenter29:06

A little bit, yes. I used to sail a great deal. Did you? Yes. Would you try to escape?

Presenter29:11

Well, I think provided I could believe that the weather was going to be reasonable for a period of time, I would be scared out of my mind if I set off and went into a hurricane or something.

Presenter29:22

And therefore I'd have to choose the moment for escape very carefully, but I believe that ultimately I would escape. Right.

Presenter29:28

Your last record.

Presenter29:31

This must be by Mozart, um, for me the greatest of all composers.

Presenter29:37

And I would like something from Figaro, which I regard as one of the finest of all operas.

Presenter29:45

Part two of the finale of Act Two, which I

Presenter29:49

Believed to be one of the most splendid of all operatic finales, the work of a genius, it is marvellous.

Sir John Tooley29:56

Cong Lochet signor figaro, Westopholio Ki Vergo.

Sir John Tooley30:07

Why

Speaker 330:07

But I see.

Speaker 330:11

Do I can user?

Speaker 330:15

No.

Speaker 230:16

Go on, but I'm not. See

Sir John Tooley30:20

Oh shit.

Sir John Tooley30:22

Uh

Sir John Tooley30:28

Blue chick thing

Sir John Tooley30:41

Temke on ye faces bulls, ye torcheth for job to wolves, be no mankind wine.

Presenter30:54

Part of the finale to the second act of Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro.

Presenter30:59

A recording conducted by Erich Kleiber.

Presenter31:03

If you could take only one disk of the age you've chosen, which would it be? Oh, unquestionably the Mozart.

Presenter31:09

And one luxury to take to the island with you nothing of any practical use.

Presenter31:14

Well, I have a

Presenter31:16

Curious desire to have apricots with me. Now that sounds very strange, but I absolutely adore apricots.

Speaker 231:21

Strategy

Presenter31:24

And these are not fresh apricots, but they're

Presenter31:28

Apricots that used to be produced by a firm called the Schilling Coffee Company. And they're something between uh a crystallized apricot and something else. I can't describe it to you, but they taste of nectar to me, and I would love to have the largest pile of those you could provide for me, please. I think we could provide those, because uh I think they'd make you ill before you were able to live on them indefinitely.

Presenter31:51

Yes, those are a luxury. Sugared apricots or whatever.

Presenter31:55

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare which are already there on the island.

Presenter32:00

Very torn between

Presenter32:02

A work like War and Peace, to which I believe you can turn forever, and find infinite satisfaction from it, and a book of verse, something like the Oxford Book of English Verse, and I have

Presenter32:15

I think eventually decided on the book of poetry.

Presenter32:18

Poetry because I enjoy reading poetry.

Presenter32:21

Because in a book of that kind you've got an infinite range of poems, and also I could spend some of the time learning them by heart. So it would be the Oxford Book of English please. Well, we'll give you the old original one and the new one. You can have both. That is very generous.

Speaker 232:33

Can I have it fairer than that?

Presenter32:35

And thank you, Sir John Tooley, for letting us hear your Desert Island Disc.

Sir John Tooley32:37

Thank you.

Speaker 232:37

Yeah.

Presenter32:39

Bye and thank you very much. Goodbye everyone.

Speaker 232:49

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.