Claudio Abbado

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 10:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1980, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:30

Our castaway this week is the conductor Claudio Abado.

Presenter0:34

mister Robadoo, have you ever imagined yourself on a desert island?

Claudio Abbado0:38

Yeah.

Presenter0:38

Uh

Claudio Abbado0:38

Especially when when I was a child, you know, everybody I think uh read the book of of his own coswell, I know. So

Claudio Abbado0:44

Do you think you could endure loneliness?

Claudio Abbado0:46

I think I can live for a few months there. I would like to be in a beautiful desert island.

Presenter0:52

For a few months.

Presenter0:55

Now you've made heaven only knows how many records. Apart from professional in it, do you play record?

Claudio Abbado1:01

Yes, I like music, you know.

Presenter1:03

I thought you might.

Claudio Abbado1:03

I thought you might.

Presenter1:05

On your desert island would you rather have scores than records?

Presenter1:09

I prefer to escort, I can imagine the song.

Presenter1:12

Was it very difficult to choose just eight? Yeah.

Claudio Abbado1:18

You know, there are so many other music that I would like to have with me, like Monte Verdi or Verdi or Schumann Furbengler or Schubert Ninth with Furbengler. So there are many other records I would like to

Speaker 11:26

Denied.

Claudio Abbado1:29

What's the first one you've chosen? Better than ninth with Four Benner.

Presenter1:33

We have nights.

Claudio Abbado1:34

With what

Presenter1:34

Port Berkeley, yes.

Presenter1:35

Did you ever hear him conductors?

Claudio Abbado1:37

Yes, I heard when I was a child in Milan.

Claudio Abbado1:41

And I think really for me it was the greatest conduct I heard in my life. I heard Toscanini, it was fantastic, but the impression of maybe for Wrangler when I heard it was the tension during the rehearsals, during the concert, even before I started music, it was incredible. And also was one of the greatest musicians I heard.

Presenter2:56

The opening of Beethoven's ninth symphony, Furtwengler conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter3:02

Mr. Robato, you were born in Milan, but that's not where your family roots are.

Claudio Abbado3:07

No, because my father is born near Alba, in Piamonte, north of Italy, and my mother's from Sicily. But further back. Yes, the origin of my name is Arab. They come from twelve hundred when the Arabs they went to Spain in Sevilla and they built Alcazar and the tower. And then since the Arab subsidiary they sent away because they like to have more war and no more architecture. So they went to Italy and they built up a castle in Piamonte, near Alba. And what happened to the castle?

Speaker 13:21

Sevilla.

Claudio Abbado3:39

The Castle Or is a very funny story. My great grandfather, one night uh he played and he lost everything. The Castle He's playing cards. I don't know if he was playing cards or a game, I don't know exactly what.

Presenter3:46

Tough.

Presenter3:51

Yeah.

Presenter3:52

Oh, what a pity.

Claudio Abbado3:53

Uh

Presenter3:54

Are both your parents?

Claudio Abbado3:56

Yeah.

Presenter3:56

We're musicians.

Claudio Abbado3:57

Yes, my father was a violinist. Yes. My mother played piano.

Presenter4:01

Your mother also read books? Yes.

Presenter4:04

Uh

Claudio Abbado4:04

Uh

Presenter4:04

Uh

Claudio Abbado4:04

Bochil

Presenter4:05

So as a child you heard plenty of music. Now it's said that you decided to be a conductor when you were eight, is that right?

Claudio Abbado4:11

Yes, seven or eight. I remember the first concert I heard in La Scala in the I remember the the sixth gallery. I heard D B C Norton was conducted by Antonio Guarnieri, was a really great conductor. Something and I went like Fritz Reine. It was conducted with a very small chazzer. And I have this impression of the fate of D B C conducted by Guarnieri. And I remember I was back home and decided to be a conductor.

Presenter4:38

Well, I know that piece of music Fet from the Debussy Nocturne is on your list, so let's have that now. And who is to play it on this recording?

Claudio Abbado4:48

I remember I heard many years ago this old rite of Piedmonteux, that Aixinger was a guide conductor of A B C.

Presenter5:54

Pierre Monteur conducting the Boston Symphony Orchestra in Fet from Debussy's Noctoon.

Presenter6:02

Do you have brothers and sisters? Yes.

Claudio Abbado6:04

And are they?

Presenter6:05

Bills who

Claudio Abbado6:05

Yes, my old brother Marcello is the director of Conservatory Milano, pianist. And my sister Luciana, she's the head of record edition. And Gabriele, youngest brother, is an architect.

Presenter6:25

Now, you were still a small boy, of course, when the last war started. Do you remember some bad times because things were very rough in the occupa?

Claudio Abbado6:32

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado6:33

Oh yes, I remember everything, we did nothing.

Presenter6:37

I believe your family was in trouble for sheltering a Jewish child at one time.

Claudio Abbado6:40

Yes.

Presenter6:41

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado6:42

My mother especially had some trouble because the little child was living with us.

Claudio Abbado6:47

And we said it was

Claudio Abbado6:49

My cousins well.

Claudio Abbado6:51

As in turn.

Presenter6:52

Were you having music lessons?

Claudio Abbado6:53

Oh yes. My mother was teaching me when I was a little child. Then I started with teacher in Milano and then I studied conservatory in Milano before going to Vienna.

Presenter7:03

Now you were playing the organ in church very early in the

Claudio Abbado7:06

Yeah.

Presenter7:06

Uh

Claudio Abbado7:06

Yeah.

Presenter7:06

Morning

Claudio Abbado7:06

Yes, that's true. When I was fifteen, sixteen years old, well I was studying composition, so I studied also organ and I was playing organ to get some money,'cause uh you know, when you are fifteen, sixteen years, you need some and you had to get up very early in the morning. Six o'clock, I remember I was playing sometimes not only Bach's sonata or or fugue or prelude, but I was playing matches passion and the organ. But I didn't know when I have to stop for the mass. So I was playing for hours and hours and sometimes the priest come to me to say, Now you stop But I say, No, I don't I have to finish the piece So I was continuing to play for hours So that the result was after one or two times I played in the church was ending, it was finished. Yes, so I have to change the church.

Presenter7:20

And you had to go

Presenter7:21

Yes.

Speaker 17:42

But I

Presenter7:56

Now you all

Claudio Abbado7:56

Also sang in the chorus. For us was very interesting to hear the rehearsals of Buno Walter when we was conducting last concerts, Carrion and Krips and Scherchen and so on. So I was singing Me Meteor Spaschen Bach uh when Schochen was conducting also Malek Seikwen when with Krips or Brahm Scheichen with Karrion and Mozartreken Buno Walter was there. Anything to get into those rehearsals? Yeah.

Presenter8:35

Mm-hmm. That was the only way.

Presenter8:37

Now obviously you were conducting student orchestras. What was your first professional engagement as a conductor?

Presenter8:45

What I remember was Intriesta. Intriesta.

Claudio Abbado8:47

Yes. Well, I conducted the first complete concert with the Symphony Orchestra and the first opera after fifty eight.

Presenter8:55

Well, before we leave Italy and talk about some of your successes abroad, um I know that the St. Matthew Passion is one of your

Presenter9:04

Chosen record. Yes. Now which bit of it are we going to hear?

Claudio Abbado9:08

We'll review the the first course, the the beginning of semantic question. And who is conducting? Clemper.

Presenter10:16

The opening of Bach's Saint Matthew Passion.

Presenter10:19

The Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Otto Klimpere and the Philharmonia Choir.

Presenter10:24

Now in the United States

Presenter10:27

You won a prize as a as a young conductor.

Claudio Abbado10:30

Yeah.

Presenter10:30

What was that?

Claudio Abbado10:30

First was the Kusevinsky Prize in Tanglewood, fifty and then the Metropolis Prize in New York.

Claudio Abbado10:39

That was it was a good competition because it was not exactly a competition. They chose three young conductors, me and Zubi Meta and Gustav Meier from the Vienna School, and I think four or five American conductors. And we have the possibility to conduct concerts every evening in the week, and they choose then finally the three best from the eight concerts, mhm, and they give me the the press prize, Kusowinski prize.

Presenter11:04

And what was the other?

Claudio Abbado11:04

Common.

Presenter11:04

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado11:04

Test.

Claudio Abbado11:05

Oh, the Metropolis competition. Yes, that was in sixty three. That was a very difficult competition. I hate competition. This is not uh really music. And I don't know why they gave me the first prize, because I didn't connect very well. And after that they offered me to to be with the New Philharmonic for one season. Yeah. And it was a great help for me because after that I received invitation with Vienna Philharmonic in Salzburg when Karen helped me connect to Merlin and also all the American great

Presenter11:39

Okay, so

Claudio Abbado11:39

Yeah.

Presenter11:39

Uh

Claudio Abbado11:40

Uh

Presenter11:40

How good are you at languages? Obviously it is a a great asset to an international conductor.

Claudio Abbado11:45

Yeah, I study only French at school, really. Uh English and German I I learn by here. As you hear. Your English is done very well. Where did you first conduct in London?

Claudio Abbado11:56

Milo

Claudio Abbado11:57

I think after sixty five, sixty six. I remember the first time in England was in Manchester with the Halla. Yes. It's good orchestra with good tradition. And after that I was invited to conduct Lono Symphony and Philharmonia.

Presenter12:04

Yeah.

Presenter12:09

And you were already conducting opera regularly at at Lascala?

Claudio Abbado12:13

Yes, yes. I started also in'sixty five in Scala, but I was appointed as music director in'sixty eight.

Presenter12:14

Yeah.

Presenter12:22

Uh this must be well, it's a very prestigious post, but it must take many months in the year.

Claudio Abbado12:28

Yes, it's a lot of work. If I think now these twelve years, from sixty eight until eighty now, that I work in Lescala was l really a lot of work, not only to conduct, but all the organization. And the incessant financial problems. Yes, also that. But I think what we've done in the last twelve years was very important because, you know, to form in the in the orchestra, when I started in sixty eight there was only one quartet, one chamber group. And now they have less something like three quartets, one quintet, two chamber orchestra play Bach and Vivaldi and one percussion and some one brass and some so almost everybody's playing chamber music. I think that's very important for the orchestra. And the level of the orchestra is much better. And then we play a lot of cycle of music, all Male Symphony that many Male Symphony never played in in in Italy before that. Or all Brokner symphony, all Viennese called Schember, Albanberg, and Web.

Speaker 112:59

And that

Speaker 113:06

Yeah.

Presenter13:11

Wow, and the l

Presenter13:22

Hmm.

Claudio Abbado13:27

And a lot of modern music.

Presenter13:29

All this was going on during the opera season.

Claudio Abbado13:30

Yes, still. Now, uh you know, there are normally eight months opera season in Lascala. Three months we are playing concerts. But during the opera season they're playing many chamber group concerts. They're normally for example like here in London, Coven Garden is free on Sunday. In Lascala they are free on Monday. Monday evening there are always concerts in Las Cala with chamber groups or soloists or recital.

Presenter13:32

But we're getting together.

Presenter13:57

Well now you've left the the scale. Um you'll still continue to work there from time to time.

Claudio Abbado14:03

I will finish this season in April. And after that I think I will work with Orchestra and cause um very good report. We continue to record on the Verdi opera, like we did for Simone Bocanega and Mark Bett and Bally Mask and Recon. So we do

Claudio Abbado14:21

Don Carlos, Aida, and Areopo.

Claudio Abbado14:24

What's your next record? Schubert's Quintet in C major. Why'd you choose this? When I was young, my father was playing a lot of German music with trio quartet quintet. And that's one of the first things I heard in my life. And for me it's one of the greatest things.

Presenter15:41

While to the first movement of the Schubert quintet in C major for strings,

Presenter15:45

Played by Isaac Stern, Alexander Schneider, Milton Katims, Pablo Casals, and Paul Tortellier.

Presenter15:53

Now ever since your debut in London you've had a pleasant association with the London Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter15:59

And you became principal gas conductor and now your principal conductor.

Presenter16:05

And that was elected by unanimous vote because the musicians elect their own principal conductor, don't they?

Claudio Abbado16:11

Mhm. Yes. And I think that's very democratic and I like to work with this orchestra. It's a wonderful report. Not only as a musician there are very good musician orchestra, but the humour report with this orchestra is very important. They have very good humor, very good spirit to work.

Presenter16:28

Now you've worked very closely with the Ascala Orchestra and

Presenter16:32

You've been principal conductor at the Vienna Philharmonic, and you've had a very close relationship with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter16:39

Four orchestras you know exceedingly well.

Presenter16:41

Could you

Presenter16:43

Very briefly tell us the strengths and weaknesses of these four great orchestras. Where does one excel and another one?

Claudio Abbado16:50

Yes.

Presenter16:51

No.

Claudio Abbado16:51

Mm scala orchestra, for example, is for me one of the greatest opera orchestra. Yeah, of course, because they have a great tradition. And how this orchestra can follow with the sound, the words in the opera is something unique that maybe you hear the Berlin Philharmonic, that's great orchestra, better than Scala for Bethomenbuch, Nerbrahms, for everything.

Claudio Abbado17:15

But when they have to follow, I think the scalar orchestra have something special.

Claudio Abbado17:21

And also how to work with new production Las Carla was for me very important. But talking about the orchestra.

Claudio Abbado17:29

El De Plain in the last year, I think he's a great orchestra, especially as I said for opera.

Claudio Abbado17:37

Vienna Philharmonic they have great great tradition for romantic repertoire, for Brahms, for Bochner, for Mahler, for Bethon.

Claudio Abbado17:47

For Schubert Malter.

Claudio Abbado17:50

weakness, you say. When you play Stravinsky or French music or modern music, it's m less flexible than London Symphony. But a London Symphony can do everything, there's no limit.

Claudio Abbado18:05

In the meantime you can find warmer sound in the strings. That's something we are working together with a l with London Symphony and they agree that we can find a better sound for the strings.

Claudio Abbado18:19

Chicago is a great orchestra. Very flexible too. With uh German tradition in the orchestra. I think that's come from Fritz Reine. Yes.

Claudio Abbado18:30

And in America is for me the best orchestra that I like to work. So that's the reason I'm going every season and

Claudio Abbado18:38

Schulte invites me to open the season every two seasons that I find very kind, very nice of him.

Presenter18:45

To have another

Claudio Abbado18:45

Record now. What next? Next is Brokner's Seventh Symphony, conducted by Frut Bengler. Why? Oh, that's one of the greatest records of uh Fort Bengler. I love Brockner. And w I choose this particular p part in this coda or the first movement, because it was a very strong influence for other composers. Even

Claudio Abbado19:08

Maybe didn't know about but Musawskin boys there was something similar, and the dead of bodies.

Presenter20:12

A section from the end of the first movement of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony, Wilhelm Furtwengler conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, a recording made in Berlin in october nineteen forty nine.

Presenter20:26

Now, you have a reputation for a very wide repertoire, and I know you have a big recording programme laid out. Does that mean the LSO is going to be playing some music which is fairly unfamiliar to them?

Claudio Abbado20:38

I don't think it's I'm familiar because as I said before London Symphony is very flexible and they play a lot of music from from I think the last three centuries.

Presenter20:47

Ah, what projects do you have in mind for a

Claudio Abbado20:49

With London Symphony we continue the Stravinsky uh recordings. We did already the Sakura Prenta, Schudkart and Fabert and Puccinella, and next would be Petrushka and then Aegon or Verz and so on.

Claudio Abbado21:03

Oh, we are going to Mozart Symphony, uh Jupiter and G minor.

Claudio Abbado21:08

We are calling our Strauss, we continue with Astraus poem.

Presenter21:12

It's quite a long time since we saw you at Covent Garden, about, what, three years? Have you any plans to do an opera there in the near future? Could be in eighty three, eighty four season. Oh, quite a long time to wait.

Claudio Abbado21:16

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado21:21

Oh.

Presenter21:23

Up faces.

Claudio Abbado21:24

Depends how long I have to stay in the desert isle.

Presenter21:29

Your home is still in Milan. How much time of the year are you able to spend there?

Claudio Abbado21:34

Uh until now I was something like six months in Milano, a few months in London. Now I think I will stay more in London, a little less in Milano. I still keep the house in Milano. You have two homes, really? Yes.

Presenter21:47

Uh

Claudio Abbado21:47

Now the

Presenter21:47

The record one

Claudio Abbado21:47

Next. Mozart and Magic Flush have sounded for me the greatest thing of Yes. And who is conducting? Uh Bruno Walter. I think he was one of the greatest uh interpreters of Mozart.

Presenter21:57

And who is a

Claudio Abbado22:21

Uh Uh

Presenter22:21

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado22:21

Uh

Presenter23:05

The overture to the magic flute, Bruna Valta conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter23:11

You have an exceedingly good memory, mister Robado. You you quite frequently conduct without a score. You like to do that. Yes.

Claudio Abbado23:19

I like first I like to have contact with the orchestra, with the stage, with the singers. And also psychologically for me it's very important to know by heart, if not means for me that I don't know enough to score.

Presenter23:32

Do you think it ever worries singers or or?

Presenter23:37

Musicians

Claudio Abbado23:38

No, I think in the contrary, you have more content, you can help more. Yes.

Claudio Abbado23:43

If you look at me.

Presenter23:44

The thing every conductor dreads it could be his fault or the musician's fault or or the librarian's fault the orchestra gets in a tangle and the only thing to do is stop and start again. Has that ever happened to you on any occasion?

Claudio Abbado23:59

General Performance?

Presenter24:00

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado24:00

That's

Claudio Abbado24:02

You know, I remember once in the Metropolitan Conduct Don Carlos, you know, and the audience stopped the music to applaud a great Akut of Chelevere was singing beautifully, but I d I didn't like this during the music. So they stopped the music, we stopped, and then I played again. Oh, but that was you stopping the orchestra deliberately.

Speaker 124:05

You know what?

Claudio Abbado24:22

Yeah, we have to stop because it was a long applause, you know, and we couldn't hear anything, so we stopped. Then we started again and we did again the music.

Presenter24:24

Yeah.

Presenter24:30

There's one orchestra we haven't mentioned, an orchestra I know which is dear to you, the the European Community Youth Orchestra. Will you tell us about that?

Claudio Abbado24:38

Yes, that's something I think great. There are wonderful young musicians children in all Europe and last summer there was one hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty musicians in the full orchestra. And the best was from England. So was proportion something like thirty five, forty from England. But also there are many great talents from Holland, from Germany, from France, from Italy, from Belgium.

Claudio Abbado25:08

And that the idea was when I was conducting in a international youth orchestra in Aberdeen four or five years ago, and we discussed to to form a youth orchestra in Europe to choose the best musician. And now it's really getting fantastic because the first year was a good orchestra, we I remember we played Malik Six Symphony and that's a very difficult piece, they played very well.

Claudio Abbado25:35

Then the second year, that was last year, we went to the m more I think most important festival, like Salzburg, for example, and Karen heard the orchestra and he decided you know Karen conducts normally only the Berlin Philharmonic or sometimes Vienna Philhony. He decided to conduct this orchestra, so he will conduct Ne Sama one concert. He will come to Kurchewal in the mountains where we work.

Presenter25:52

We will come to

Claudio Abbado25:55

And it would also trend ice rehearsals.

Presenter25:58

How long it heard you?

Claudio Abbado25:59

Well go on.

Claudio Abbado26:01

You know, there are normally students, they go to school during the year, so we can work only during the holidays, so we work in next summer.

Claudio Abbado26:07

And we stayed together for one month. And I think we are recording also.

Claudio Abbado26:13

Uh I think the spirit of uh this orchestra is something unique. There's no limit, really. And everybody believes what it's doing. That sometimes in professional orcas it's not exactly the same. Maybe you can find ninety percent of the orchestra, but not a hundred percent.

Presenter26:32

Right.

Claudio Abbado26:32

Some more music, what next?

Claudio Abbado26:34

The Chesmallen Ninth Symphony Bonavate is for Great Condator and

Claudio Abbado26:40

Yeah, tradition for marsing for I choose night because I conduct the other singing but I never conduct the night. I w I like to study the night, so maybe in the desert island I can

Claudio Abbado26:52

Yeah.

Presenter26:52

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado26:52

Listen more on an anthem

Presenter26:53

You have in fact a a project for recording the whole of Malahe.

Claudio Abbado26:56

Yes, we start already we are recording with Vienna Philharmonica in Chicago and we did already the second, fourth, sixth. Uh next will be next month the fifth and we are recording the third in September in Vienna.

Presenter27:09

And I

Presenter27:09

Well, as you say, here's a little homework you can do on the island.

Presenter27:40

Uh

Presenter27:42

Uh

Presenter28:03

The closing passage of the Mahler Ninth Symphony Bruno Walter with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, and it was conducted in Vienna in nineteen thirty eight.

Presenter28:13

How well could you look after yourself on a desert island?

Presenter28:16

That's a

Claudio Abbado28:16

Yeah.

Presenter28:17

You already have an island home, don't you?

Presenter28:20

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado28:20

Oh, you mean when I got some in Sardinia? Yes. Yeah, that's a big island and not desert. Yes, but you're right on the coast.

Claudio Abbado28:27

Yeah.

Presenter28:28

Are you good, Scarman?

Claudio Abbado28:29

Yeah, and yes I also a small sailing boat.

Presenter28:34

Are you like sailing? Could you

Claudio Abbado28:35

You build But

Presenter28:36

Sailing

Claudio Abbado28:36

Yeah.

Presenter28:38

If necessary.

Claudio Abbado28:42

Not very much. No, I was f uh fishing when I was a child in the Adriatic Sea, in a big boat with my youngest brother. We went during the night. Mm. It was very interesting. But I'm not fishing now. Would you try to escape?

Claudio Abbado28:58

I think if I have a few months free to stay there, that would be fantastic, then after that I will build up

Claudio Abbado29:05

Selling what?

Presenter29:06

Go to another place. You build a sailing boat? Yes. Not just a raft, a sailing boat. This is this is very ambitious. No, it's simple, I think.

Presenter29:17

Selling boat, yeah, a motorboat I think would be more complicated. It would be rather more complicated.

Presenter29:24

Oh, well, obviously we're going to see you back here quite soon.

Presenter29:26

Your last record, what's that?

Claudio Abbado29:28

Wagner Tristan Isold. The end of the opera, Dead of Isold. And who is singing Isold?

Claudio Abbado29:34

Flagstad

Claudio Abbado29:36

There is a famous regular fruit banger with plaxon and phile amonia.

Claudio Abbado29:41

And I I remember I heard Faux Bengler conducting Toyston many, many, many years ago.

Claudio Abbado29:47

It doesn't in Cairo.

Claudio Abbado29:50

Tension of this man.

Presenter30:48

Girstenberg start as Isolde in Wagner's Tristan and Isolde.

Presenter30:53

The Philharmony Orchestra conducted by Wilhelm Furtwengler.

Presenter30:58

If you could take only one disc out of the eight you've played us, which would it be? Bach.

Presenter31:03

Buck.

Claudio Abbado31:03

Yeah.

Presenter31:04

Sir Matthew Passion.

Presenter31:06

and one luxury to take to the island.

Presenter31:09

I think something to write. What are you going to write?

Claudio Abbado31:11

Yeah.

Claudio Abbado31:12

Anything I like?

Presenter31:12

Yeah.

Presenter31:13

Yes, anything you'd like to do? Yes. Music. Would you like some music paper as well?

Claudio Abbado31:13

Yes, if you like to music.

Claudio Abbado31:17

No, no, I mean paper, then or could be music.

Presenter31:20

Could be other things I don't know now.

Presenter31:23

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare, and we don't encourage big encyclopedias.

Presenter31:31

Divina Comedia. The Divine Comedy of Dante. Yes. Right, we shall have it handsomely bound for you. And thank you, Claudio Abado, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much. Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 131:49

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.