Barry John

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 10:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

Our castaway this week is a great figure in the world of rugby football. It's Barry John. Barry, whereabouts in Wales were you born?

Barry John0:39

Well, I was born in a in a village called Kevnaithin, which um is o well between Carmarthin and and Swanziril on the on the May near Forty Eight there. Um I think we were only about eight hundred people in the village and uh it's still the same, maybe a little bit more now. Uh yes, connected with the mining industry there, there were two or three pits around and obviously in the valley itself, you know, it was loaded with pits and uh very much a mining industry, yeah.

Presenter0:53

That's a microphone.

Presenter1:01

With

Presenter1:04

Your father was down the pit.

Barry John1:05

Yes, he retired, um what is it, eighteen months ago, I think. That's it, and uh all his life. Was Welsh your first language?

Barry John1:13

Yeah, Sharlekam Ragon in Egenta. Yes, that means yes, it was Welsh first.

Presenter1:17

Yeah.

Barry John1:18

Uh and I think um maybe I'm not quite sure, you know, when you're born and bred in a an environment like that where uh obviously the language of of the house is Welsh and yet again you mix with with other children who speak English, so they come together and basically this is the same with my my children at home.

Presenter1:35

Was Rugger a way of life in the family?

Barry John1:37

Uh yes, ev uh I think life revolved around the fact that uh well, sport as much as anything, not so much uh uh rugby I think.

Presenter1:45

You were a big family. Our a big family.

Barry John1:47

For a big family. Yes, uh I'm one of six, yeah. Did you sing in the choir?

Barry John1:51

Oh? No. No, I didn't. Uh it's been very embarrassing since because uh when you go away with uh rugby teams as we did over the years that and particularly as you're Welsh people tend to think that uh you're a singer. And I always remind people that they do two things in Wales, sing and play rugby, and fortunately I was able to play rugby.

Presenter2:10

How do you decide about choosing a record?

Barry John2:13

Um, not qu quite sure. Obviously, uh driving along in a car, I think you tend to once I was uh invited to come along, uh you tend to perhaps listen to records as you drive along and pass things and I think you flick through your mind what would be appropriate and uh uh that's the way I did it anyway. And in in my work I tend to sit in the car quite a bit, so I had plenty of time and opportunity.

Presenter2:34

Where do we start? What's the first one?

Barry John2:36

It's uh Simon and Garfunkel, Bridge Over Trouble Waters, always been a favourite of mine. Their music I like very much. And uh I remember we were flying I think from Hong Kong to Brisbane on one of the trips and sitting with uh John Bevan who turned rugby league since and we sat there and this was the one. We settled on that and dropped off to sleep with uh Bridge Over Trouble Waters now he is.

Speaker 12:59

Praise over.

Speaker 13:05

Time will lay me down.

Speaker 33:09

I go.

Barry John3:10

Pretty trouble.

Barry John3:17

Bye, we're

Speaker 13:17

But lay me down.

Presenter3:26

Simon and Garfunkel to send you off to sleep. I suppose you you started to play rugger at grammar school. Oh, before that has been possible.

Barry John3:33

Yes, um I went to the local village school, Kevin, I think the primary school there, and um as it happened the the headmaster unfortunately he died only a couple of months ago in fact, a fabulous character called WJ Jones. And then we had uh uh Welsh international rugby winger playing for Shanetti, which was the equivalent of Manchester United of course at the time. And he came to teach in the school and this was under eleven, so we played I wouldn't say competitive rugby, but certainly organized rugby when we were about uh ten and eleven and we won the local sevens competition and things like that.

Presenter4:04

And right from the beginning, were you cut out to be a half-back?

Barry John4:07

By size, I'm about uh five foot ten now I think and uh s just a little overweight. But when I was a a young boy, you know, I was very much a tiddler and effectively went to grammar school with uh you know short shorts really, not long trousers, which was the end thing. So I it wasn't until I was about fourteen or fifteen that I really grew and got out, you know, well, I was able to play other positions. But by then of course I got used to the half-back world and uh so I stuck there.

Presenter4:35

And you started playing club rugger while you were still at school.

Barry John4:38

Yes. You shouldn't have played mind. Uh you know, it was against the the rules of schools and everything, but uh rules like that I think are meant to be broken. And in Wales I think they're broken every other hour.

Presenter4:48

Apart from rugger, were you good at school?

Barry John4:51

I was the best uh schoolboy in every subject Wales has ever had. Um they were very lucky to have me. No, I wasn't very no. I think I passed, I got uh six or seven O levels and the pass mark was fifty and I think the highest mark I got was fifty two.

Presenter4:57

No, I was

Speaker 14:59

Mm-hmm.

Presenter5:07

Well that's enough.

Barry John5:08

What did you want to be?

Barry John5:09

I don't know. Frankly, I wanted to be a doctor.

Presenter5:11

Hmm.

Barry John5:12

Uh I did the subjects um early on in my school life, uh zoology and uh chemistry, botany and things like this. Uh and I think then I allowed uh sport to take too much of a part in my life. Now I don't regret it, but uh at times I think I would have liked to have been in that type of world, the medical world anyway.

Presenter5:30

Yeah, th in fact you went into the scholastic world. You you became a teacher.

Barry John5:33

Yes, I went to college in Carmarthen, Trinity College in Carmarthen, had three really fantastic years there. I believe you met your wife Janet there. That's it, yes, yeah.

Presenter5:43

And another good thing that happened while you were there is that you were invited to the trials for the Welsh side.

Barry John5:48

Yes, I can't remember whether whether it was the first year, uh but certainly in the second and third year I got trials and eventually I got picked, I got my first two caps for Wales. I was playing for naturally in my club at the time. But whilst um at college, yeah.

Presenter6:01

But they kept you in in suspense for a bit. You were reserved for a few times.

Barry John6:05

Yes, I don't think anybody likes to be a reserve to anybody else. But I think in Wales it's a type of apprenticeship. You've got to serve it. And in many ways it's a good thing because the involvement of rugby in Wales is so great, so much is expected of you that it's nice to get the taste and the flavour of going on a weekend away with a Welsh team with all the trimmings and the trappings and everything and knowing what the pressures are like without having to play. But mind you, it works as well that once you've tasted that, you know, you've got one foot in, you want to put the other foot in and you want to get in then and do the job.

Presenter6:36

What was your first international in which you played?

Barry John6:38

I played against Australia in December 1966. That was when I was in college, as I said. And unfortunately, we lost.

Presenter6:49

Now about that time you decided to change clubs. You left Len Len Ethelie. Yeah. Uh

Barry John6:53

It wasn't a case of changing clubs, although when I go down and see my father in West Wales and the family, you still can't get it through to them, obviously, and that's the nice thing about it, that no one leaves Flanettley, you know. It's just unheard of. And I didn't leave Flanetley as a rugby club. I left the area. I'd been born and bred in Kemythin and that particular area. I went to college there. I thought at 21 I think I've got to uproot and literally move away in a living sense, not in a sporting sense. And obviously Cardiff was, I know, only 60 miles away, but at least it meant that you were away, you were living on your own, you were independent and did the things you wanted to do.

Presenter7:30

And you were a full-time teacher, then?

Barry John7:32

And I was yes, I just qualified and I was able to get a school in Caddy, which is suited.

Presenter7:36

Now you went off to South Africa on the British lands tour, three and a half months away. What happened to the job then?

Barry John7:42

Um I lost it. I taught for two terms and when this came along obviously I wasn't married or anything like that so frankly the job didn't cross my mind.

Presenter7:52

So when you got back?

Barry John7:53

I literally was on the door.

Presenter7:55

Yeah.

Barry John7:55

Yeah.

Presenter7:55

Another record day.

Barry John7:56

I like uh stupid stuff and uh I've got a very crazy sense of humor at times, as some of my friends will tell you. Um the world of Pete and Dudd, Peter, Cook and Duddy more of course, and the one I particularly like is the the art gallery, they visit there.

Presenter8:11

What I can't understand, frankly Pete, is that there's not a Vernon Ward gallery in here. There's not a duck in the building. There's no Peter Scott. There's no Vernon Ward. Not a duck to be seen.

Presenter8:24

And the marvellous thing about Vernon Ward is of course he's been doing ducks all his life. Well he's done more ducks than you've had hot breakfast done. Vernon Ward, he's done plenty of ducks. If he's done anything he's done ducks. Yeah. He's done ducks in all positions, yeah.

Speaker 38:29

Oh he can know

Presenter8:40

Peter Cook and Dudley Moore at the Art Gallery. You built up a a fabulous partnership with Gareth Edwards. He is Scrum Half and you as Fly. When did you first start playing with it?

Barry John8:52

I th uh if I remember rightly, Gareth Kimber we'd been selected to play in a final Welsh rugby trial. I'd already been capped against Australia, and Gareth was in college in Cardiff and I was in Carmarthen.

Presenter9:00

Okay.

Barry John9:03

And uh we were

Barry John9:05

you know, picked to play together in the final trial, the Welsh trial.

Barry John9:08

And he came down to the college and we went out for a a run out there and then, you know, and it was raining, belting down with rain, and I had just daps on and uh Gareth was kitted out uh in the proper fashion. And we'd had a party the night before, so I wasn't feeling exactly happy and going out in this rain. So after about five minutes we just said, you know, okay, that's okay, good enough and uh that's when the the phrase that came out of that was uh you throw it and I'll catch it and uh and that's been just about it well, ever since until until I finish, of course.

Presenter9:38

You had a secret weapon you and he used to speak Welsh together, which sometimes foxed the opposition.

Barry John9:44

Yes, communication I think is the name of the game, not only in sport, I think i in the world in many ways. Uh you know if communication is good then you're halfway there and we had the advantage of another language. It played a a major part in our partnership we can tell.

Presenter9:57

Right. Highlights in your career, Baron. Nineteen sixty nine, Wales won the Triple Crown. That was a very satisfactory season. Yes, it was, yeah. How many times were you capped altogether?

Presenter10:07

Uh twenty-five times, yes.

Barry John10:08

Uh

Presenter10:08

Well then the course of that sensational British Lions tour of New Zealand and Australia that was nineteen seventy one

Barry John10:14

Yes, that's it.

Presenter10:15

What was your personal scoring point on that tour? Do you remember?

Barry John10:19

Well, there's some argument about three of the points, I think, because I think it's either one eighty or one eighty eight or one eighty five, something of that nature, for the tour. But in New Zealand, I think it was uh one hundred eighty.

Barry John10:30

I think we played in one game in Waira Rappa, Waira Rappa bush, beautiful place. And again, I don't know, it was bucketing down with rain. And three of us went for the ball over the line. I don't think one of us got to the ball, but the ref was thirty or forty hours behind, just saw all this mud and jerseys flying everywhere. So he signalled a try and we looked at each other, Chris Ray, who works for the BBC now, and Arthur Lewis and myself.

Barry John10:53

I was credited with a try then, but then when the ref had time to think about it, he gave it to Arthur, and then his final decision, he said, no, it's Chris's. So I don't know.

Presenter11:01

Well even if it's not

Barry John11:02

Chris is playing the try, I know.

Presenter11:03

Even if it was the lower figure, 180, that's about 100 more than anyone else has ever scored on a similar tour.

Barry John11:09

Yes, another record.

Presenter11:10

Another record.

Barry John11:11

I'm very, very fond of Neil Diamond and uh one of his great hits, uh Beautiful Noise. I think the way it builds up the crescendo and you know it's fantastic. It really is a foot tapper.

Speaker 111:22

Uh

Presenter11:22

It's a beautiful noise

Presenter11:26

And it's a sound that I love.

Presenter11:30

And it makes me feel good

Speaker 311:33

I got hand in the clouds, yes it does, yes it does.

Presenter11:47

Neil Diamond, beautiful noise.

Presenter11:50

Barry, the experts say that your rugger career only fell into three parts. You began as a.

Presenter11:55

Very accurate kicker. W was that something you'd concentrated on as a youngster?

Barry John12:00

Not really. When I played for Schnelly, I think you tend to play to your strengths. And at the time, Schnelletti had a very, very good pack with the Gale brothers and a lot of other very, very good players there. And at the end of the day, you want to win games, and although you want to try and make it effective and attractive. And so the the Scrum Halves I had, Snetti, Gareth Thomas, he was there, and Dennis Thomas, they were both very, very good players. But I was asked to play a more kicking role, and obviously, for those three years, I did a lot of kicking.

Presenter12:27

And then you acquired a very subtle way of running round people, which must have been absolutely maddening to them.

Barry John12:34

Well, it's funny when you've got a big yellow streak down your back and things happening very quickly. It's funny what you come up with.

Presenter12:39

Very good.

Presenter12:40

You never went where anyone thought you were going.

Barry John12:43

No, I didn't have much of a chance really because I didn't know what I was going at the time.

Presenter12:47

And the last fazette, which you developed in, what, the season of seventy, seventy one, you became the Welsh place kicker. A a very specialized art, surely.

Barry John12:56

Yes, I can remember, was it 1970 I started because Keith Jarrett who went north, he was very sad for Welsh Rugby in many ways, was a very talented player. But this is a circumstance again, I think, where, okay, we were short of a place kicker. And I remember we went out to the first game after Keith went north and John Taylor was to kick on the right-hand side of the field. I was to kick on the left with my right, and JPR Williams would kick in the centre. So when the first penalty came along, it happened to be in my sector. It could have been in any one of the other sectors, so I put it over and I put another one over. And then when another kick was given in John Taylor's sector, they still gave it to me and I kicked that. So since then, okay, well, you can have the lot and it went on from there.

Presenter13:37

You had a reputation as a very cool player. You you you very seldom, if ever, lost your cool.

Barry John13:42

Well, I I suppose you're either born um with a temperament, I think you are, you can't change your temperament, whatever it is. And I was uh I'm still born with a with a very cool you know, I couldn't panic to save my life, uh I mean, what's the point?

Presenter13:55

During our playing career, did you get heard often?

Barry John13:58

Yes, I broke my collarbone in South Africa. I've smashed my nose a couple of times.

Presenter14:04

You played on against the French with a broken nose, which must have been absolutely horrible.

Barry John14:08

That was pretty heroic in fact, wasn't it, when you think of it? It was. Um no, I don't speak a word of French for very, very little and I mean little. I went off the field and I knew that my nose had gone because I could see three quarters of the world on one side and just a little bit on the other.

Presenter14:10

It was.

Barry John14:24

And when I went off and I was taken to the touch line and subs were involved then.

Barry John14:28

And the doctor, the French doctor, he was obviously excited and France were playing well at the time. So he didn't have much time for me. So he blabbed bubble bubble blub in French and everything. And he just looked at me. And when he was told, Well, you better have a look at him, they want to sabotage and he just put my head back, got hold of my nose and if I'd understood a word of French,'cause he said, I think I'll put it back for him. And he just pulled my nose down and put it back. And it's been there ever since. So and he just stuffed me with cotton oil and gave me a kick and get back there.

Barry John14:54

Yeah.

Presenter14:54

Oh Johnny.

Barry John14:54

Ah, lonely, no, that's well, that's the name of the game. You don't feel it. I suppose if you'd had time to think about things like that, half the things in sport and the world wouldn't happen.

Presenter15:03

Now, at the end of the 1972 season, you decided to quit. You were only 27. You were at your absolute peak. Why did you go?

Barry John15:10

Well, it was a decision I I didn't want to to make, obviously, and either way it was the right one, and again it was the wrong one.

Barry John15:16

Um frankly it was a case of trying to weigh up what was being offered at the time and uh at the end of the day uh I realized well come on, it's the head and the heart job. The heart tells you carry on playing for Wales and the head tells you come on, you you better call the day mate and reluctantly, you know, and it really was a very and this is a very sad decision.

Presenter15:36

Oh, the day you gave up was a day of national mourning in Wales.

Barry John15:39

Well, I would know, but uh

Presenter15:41

Record number four.

Barry John15:43

Well, we're on about the Welsh side and rugby and although he hasn't played for Wales, I'm sure the selector spotted Max Poyce earlier perhaps in his golden days, coming off his left foot. Great, great player. But he's contributed, I think, anyway, to the Welsh way of life, and particularly in rugby. And I think most people go on on rugby trips, and his the Scottish trip, I think, is one of his best.

Presenter16:05

Oh, we loaded the bus up with flagons.

Barry John16:06

Bill.

Presenter16:10

And we left about twenty past seven.

Presenter16:16

We stopped fourteen times.

Presenter16:23

Between

Barry John16:24

In Neith and Brigen.

Presenter16:25

Yeah.

Barry John16:33

We were still in Glamor. Organ.

Presenter16:36

Max Boys at the Triorke Rugger Club.

Presenter16:40

Now having given up ruggy, you used up a lot of your energy playing soccer these days.

Barry John16:45

Well, yes, what's left, I think. What what happens is that people tend to perhaps, because you do fairly well in one particular sport, they tend to bracket you as well. He's a rugby player or he's a soccer player. I find anyway with soccer players and golfers and other sportsmen that they are basically sports people. It's just that they happen to play rugby better or soccer better than the other sports. But I know for a fact Gareth, Phil Bennett, remember Chicker Hopkins, John Bevan, and these boys, they're all more than accomplished soccer players. And you know, I enjoy playing. And we play in various celebrity teams or charity shows and everything. And they're good fun. It keeps you fit. It makes a lot of money for various charities. And all in all, it's it's good fun.

Presenter17:28

You're still in g in great shape, very fit. How successful do you think you'd be as a castaway, looking after yourself?

Barry John17:33

I'll probably survive maybe a week.

Barry John17:38

See you thing like that. I can't stand my own company.

Barry John17:42

What about food? Doing any fishing? I've

Barry John17:45

done some fishing in on tours and things like this, particularly in New Zealand, where you only had to just suggest, well, I wouldn't mind some uh deep sea fishing. Go, next morning, the car's there to pick you up, the rod's there and off you go. So you'd be foolish not to take advantage of these things. So I've done a little, but I wouldn't say I'm the the greatest one going.

Presenter18:01

Would you try to escape?

Barry John18:03

Um

Barry John18:04

Where to? That's a problem, isn't it? You know, my My mind would have to try and work something out, because I like thinking. If the wall is there, I don't try and run through it. I'm the type of person, right? How can I get over it and uh and use other ideas and not smash it down.

Presenter18:22

Record number five.

Barry John18:24

I like uh now and again

Barry John18:26

particularly in a situation I think we were on Ennio Island, something nice and tranquil and uh although it's not so tranquil I suppose, but uh Strauss is the the blue danube.

Presenter19:37

Blue Daniel Vidy Boskowski conducting the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. Now from the pitch you've moved to the press box at Cardiff Arms Park, don't you long to be down there?

Barry John19:48

Uh y

Barry John19:49

Yes and no really. It's you don't long to be there uh on that particular moment, you know, because you know that it's it's not on. In fact, when I when I finished and I was still fairly fit and I supposedly could have been on the field, I did a bit of trick psychology in many ways at Cardiff where you run up the steps and I r virtually raced up the steps, quite a number of them, to the press box and by the time I got there I was so shattered.

Barry John20:14

It didn't matter whether I wanted to be out there or not. I just I'd been probably useless. So but deep da now and again you I suppose you feel yes, you've you've done it. It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. That's my so I've en I enjoyed my days and I enjoy watching others having the same fun out of it.

Presenter20:31

There have been a lot of changes in the rules in in recent seasons. Without getting too technical, are they all for the good, and are there any others which ought to be made?

Barry John20:40

If you ask some of the uh rugby players I played with, they they'd tell you that I couldn't get technical anyway.

Barry John20:47

But the simple the the one very, very important rule has been the um y you're not allowed now to kick directly and to touch outside your own twenty-five. Therefore it means that you've got to keep the ball in play and therefore this encourages creative play. And anything that's creative is going to be good.

Presenter21:02

Yes, that's a good rule, I think.

Barry John21:03

Yeah, it's a tremendous r it's made a tremendous difference to the game, uh and the game's better for it.

Presenter21:08

Another record.

Barry John21:09

We're back to to Wales with the Trioke male voice. Uh Welsh people are are pretty nostalgic. I'm no different. Uh and I love Welsh uh you know the the hymns and so and so forth. And the record I want is Mavanui.

Presenter22:02

Be cold.

Presenter22:25

Mivanwee by the Trioke Mailboy Esquire.

Presenter22:29

Apart from your journalism, you've published some books.

Barry John22:32

Yes, we've got one, well it's out at the at the present time. It's called BJ as World of Rugby. Because I think there is more to rugby the world of rugby, because we've had Max on record here today and Max has written a piece called He Revisits the Fly Half Factory that He's Made, you see. And it's it's crazy. It's it's like but I think that is part of rugby. Rugby is more than pushing in the scrum and up and under and scoring tries. I think there's much more to it. And I've tried to get all this collected and collated and to get get some people to write who are not really known as rugby correspondents or or critics or something like this. And get a mixture. I think, well, I'm pleased with it and you know, that's it.

Presenter23:13

Record number seven.

Barry John23:14

I remember doing a programme with Ed Stewart many years ago and with three young girls and I was the old man of the panel and when this record came along by Olivia Newton John Take Me Home Country Road they said no we don't like that and I thought I was very old fashioned but I think she's a marvellous artist you know great singer and uh the record did very well.

Speaker 123:33

Dark and dusty, painted on the sky Misty taste of moonshine, teardrop in my eye Country roads, take me home

Speaker 123:47

To the place.

Speaker 123:49

How belong West Virginia.

Speaker 123:55

Malcolm Loma!

Speaker 123:57

Take me home.

Speaker 124:00

Run to all

Presenter24:02

Olivia Newton John, and now your last record.

Barry John24:06

Yes, it's um called My Way by the great Frank Snatter, of course.

Barry John24:11

I like the record as a record, obviously, but I think in many ways I've been very fortunate through sport and obviously through rugby to have done so many things my way. I've had very little round my neck, you know, to pull me here or direct me here or there anyway. I've been able to make my own decisions and let's face it, most people would like to be able to say that, but unfortunately they haven't had the opportunity. So I'm grateful, you know, to sport and everything else and the people who've helped you along the line to be given this one privilege. And it is a privilege to be able to say, well, I was able to do most of the things my way.

Speaker 324:45

Saw it through.

Speaker 324:47

Without exemption

Speaker 324:51

I plan

Speaker 324:54

Each chart a course.

Speaker 324:57

Each careful step

Speaker 325:00

Along the byway

Speaker 325:04

More

Speaker 325:06

Much more than this.

Speaker 325:09

I did it

Speaker 325:11

Come on.

Presenter25:15

Brank Sinatra. If you could take just one disc out of the eight you've played us.

Barry John25:20

At the end of the day, blood is thicker than water and uh I'm Welsh and I think Mavanu, if I was on my own, it would have to be Mavanui.

Presenter25:27

by the Triochie Mailboy Squire. And one luxury to take to the island with you, nothing of any practical use.

Barry John25:32

Nothing.

Barry John25:33

Um a ball.

Barry John25:36

Because I I guess I find tremendous excitement in a golf ball, anything.

Presenter25:41

Well it'll give you a a selection. You can have a rugger bowl of sauce.

Barry John25:44

Oh no no, forget no no forget the forget the rugby ball. I mean uh that I'd go crazy without bouncing all over the place. No, I think I'd won something with uh predictability, so when I'd hit the tree it came back to me. That's it.

Presenter25:54

Right. And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare and big encyclopedias.

Barry John25:59

Yes, well I think I taste something like uh from the the Sherlock Holmes world, I think, because the intrigue, the uh so

Presenter26:05

Well, we'll give you the collected Sherlock Holmes books in one.

Barry John26:07

Well thank you very much. Yes, thank you.

Presenter26:09

And thank you, Barry John, for letting us hear your desert island disc. Pleasure. Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 126:22

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.