Alec Clifton-Taylor

Alec Clifton-Taylor0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

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For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

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This week our Castaway is the Architectural Historian.

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Alec Clifton Taylor. He's just finished a very successful and interesting television series, Six English Towns.

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Alec, how gregarious are you? Could you endure solitude?

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Well, I'm fairly gregarious, but I think that I could endure it better than some people. I live alone. What would you be happiest you got away from?

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You know, there's nothing that I rarely want to get away from, particularly. I have arranged my life to avoid the things that I dislike for a long time, and that's how it is. There speaks a happy man. How much does music mean to you? A lot.

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Have you any skill at it? No. You don't play an instrument. Well, I play the piano very badly.

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Not so that anybody else should hear. Did you have any plan in in choosing your aid record?

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Yes. I wanted things that I would never get tired of.

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Music that I can listen to again and again and know that I'm going always to enjoy. And what do you start with? Well, I start with Beethoven. Because I really could not live without Beethoven. And although I've heard some of the symphonies and concertes as many times as I want to, there are others which I never tire of. And one of them is the fourth symphony.

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And therefore I have chosen that. I thought we might have the opening of the finale.

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The opening of the last movement of Beethoven's Fourth Symphony.

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Carrion conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.

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Alec, whereabouts in Britain were you born? At Cheem, in Surrey.

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As a youngster, what were your interests?

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From a very young age I loved architecture. Even when we as children, when we were taken on holiday in the car, I used to escape from the family and rush into the church.

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You went up to Queen's College, Oxford. What did you read?

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I read Modern History. With a view to what?

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Well, originally with a view to becoming a schoolmaster. But by the time I came down, the one thing that I was absolutely sure was that under no circumstances would I become a schoolmaster. You went off and studied in Paris for a minute. Yes, I did.

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Had a lovely time, and then I had my first chance of getting Raylick interested and working at the history of art at the Courteau Institute.

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When it opened in 1932. Were you planning a an academic career? By then I was hoping that I might, yes. So, how did you start?

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Well, I s I read for the degree.

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and I thought, actually, that I might have to go and work in a museum.

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But in fact a lectureship turned up where

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At the Institute of Education.

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It wasn't full time, it was it was only one day a week, and then I got another one one day a week at the Royal College of Art. And it was helping to train

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People who are going to be art teachers. My job is to give them a background in the history of art.

Alec Clifton-Taylor4:14

Yeah.

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Yes. I was learning all the time myself in order to do so. Of course.

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Well, let's have your second record. Watch that.

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Well, I would like some Mozart now.

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And

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Donald Toby said of the C minor piano concerto that it is perhaps the most sublime of all Mozart's instrumental works.

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Well, who am I to disagree with Tovy?

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And that's what I would like.

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Part of the last movement of the Mozart Piano Concerto No. twenty four in C minor, Clifford Kirzon with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Kirtisch.

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Now, what happened to you when the war came along?

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Well, some of us were on a thing called the Central Register, which I think was formed probably with the idea of uh, well, not sending our poets into the firing line.

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Perhaps rather more capable of pushing a pen than uh handling a rifle.

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Anyway, there it was, and I thought that I would be sent to the Ministry of Education. Not at all. I was told to go to the Admiralty.

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And I said, Well, I don't really know the bow from the Starn. And they said, Oh, good, well, we can teach you. We like that. So I was asked if I would like to serve in London or in Bath, and I said, In London. So I had a note to it, a day later, proceed to Bath.

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Which I did.

Speaker 46:33

But it is

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Well, in the event, of course, it was marvellous to have the privilege of living in Bath, which I think is the most beautiful city in England, and I was there for two and a half years. We had two terrible nights when we were bombed, but other than that, it was a very

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Really, very great privilege. What was the job?

Alec Clifton-Taylor6:50

What is the job

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Well, I was doing a rather dull job then in establishments, but I was learning the ropes, as it were.

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And then suddenly, at the end of nineteen forty two,

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I was told to proceed to London.

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And when I got there I found that I was

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to be in what was called Cabinet section. My job was to help to brief the First Lord for the Cabinet.

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So you you saw the cabinet papers? Yes, I did.

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We saw what came out from number ten every day.

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And I had in my room

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Unlock it safe.

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with the Cabinet minutes right back to the beginning of the war.

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Now I was on fire duty every fourth night.

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And this was nineteen forty three, and there were not many alerts then.

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And I read the Cabinet Papers from the beginning of the war.

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Oh fascinating. Well it was.

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And noon up.

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Captain Papers

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I don't think this is telling uh out of school.

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Cabinet papers fall into two main groups. Ninety-nine per cent of them are papers from departments asking for something to be done that that that department wants.

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So that's to say they're routine papers of a day-to-day type.

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But

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There are also just a few.

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Which are papers?

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Circulated by any minister.

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For their colleagues to think about. They're not action papers, they're thought papers, and of course they're far the most interesting.

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And there were a number of these papers, among the others.

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which I read with enormous interest. Are you able, after this length of time, to quote one or two? Yes, I am. Whether I should is quite another matter. But I will I will risk it and tell one thing. There was one paper

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The burden of which was

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That democracy is all very well, but it does not suit.

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the large majority of the peoples of the world.

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This paper was, I thought, marvellously well argued.

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But the interesting thing was, who put it in?

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Well

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FC.

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Atley

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I lie never.

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Of course Antley looked after the Cabinet when Churchill was away.

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Yes, he did.

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And it was a well known thing that Cabinet meetings took half the time. And then you remember that when, long afterwards, Attlee was interviewed on television, the interviewer said, And, Lord Attlee, your cabinets. They differed somewhat, didn't they, from those of your predecessor?

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Yes, I start to the agenda.

Speaker 49:29

Yeah.

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Moreover, I realized that a cabinet was not a monologue.

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Well, then what, the the end of the war must have been rather a a let down for you.

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Well, I wanted to get back to university work. But I was very lucky all the same. I did have by general standards an awfully interesting war.

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Oh before we talk about

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Your postwar career, let's have your third record.

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Well, I'd like some broms.

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Some Brahm's Piani Music.

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And I don't think we could do better than have one of the Indemeltsers from Oppos a hundred and nineteen.

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I should like the third one.

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Played by Julius Ketchin.

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The Brahms Intermezzo in C from Opus one hundred and nineteen, played by Julius Kachin. Now you went back to your lecturing, but it wasn't back to the same old grind. You had some different ideas. Yes, I did. I did extramural lecturing.

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and the great delight of extramural lecturing.

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is that you can

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Virtually make your own syllabus.

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Well, at least you can propose your own syllabus. And I proposed an entirely new syllabus, which was to deal with the visual arts, not historically.

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But aesthetically, that's to say.

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I was concentrating on form.

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Colour

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Texture

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Decoration.

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These aesthetic things. I would put a Chinese pot against a Greek pot and compare their aesthetic qualities.

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And this, I think, was a more visual approach and seemed to me to be important, and I think the students thought so too, because they responded. In fact, your ideas were accepted uh as a diploma course. Well, they were in due course. The university were very, very good about this, yes.

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You began to lecture abroad. In fact, I believe you've been round the world on a couple of occasions. I have.

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Out of all those memories of of travel, w what's the first one that comes to mind?

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Well, the marvellous opportunity of seeing the the world's architecture. I mean I have been to almost every place you can think of. You've seen the Taj Mahal by moonlight. I've seen the Taj Mahal even by moonlight, because when I was in Agra and it happened to be a fund, I was very, very lucky. And I've seen Angkor, for example, just in time.

Alec Clifton-Taylor12:41

You have seen the Tash

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I lectured in Phnom Penh. Yes. And I've been all around Ceylon, for example. I've been in Japan.

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I lectured in Honolulu and so on. I have been very lucky. And as for the United States, I have in fact lectured in thirty two different States at different times.

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Yes, I've been in forty six States. I have been in Alaska. Yes.

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Another record, number four.

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I must have something from Elgar.

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He is the English composer that I particularly cherish. And I very much love the cello concerto. And I played?

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Eau Cassals.

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Prior to the last movement of the El Garcello concerto in E minor,

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Casals with the B B C Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt. Alec, when did you write your first book?

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Well, it took me six years. Came out in nineteen sixty two.

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It was a a pretty mammoth effort for a first book or for any book.

Alec Clifton-Taylor14:51

Or for any book.

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Well, it took me three years to research, two and a half years to write and six months to revise.

Alec Clifton-Taylor14:52

Don't you

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And you'd better tell us the title and what it was about.

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It was called a Pattern of English building.

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And it was about the traditional building materials of England.

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The stone, the limestones, the sandstones, the granite, the slate, and also the brick, the tiles, the thatch.

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The timber

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A whole lot. A pretty vast subject. It was a vast subject. I was frightened when I had taken it on. I thought I never would finish it.

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And since then, well, the cathedrals of England how many cathedrals have we got, by the way? That's something I ought to know, but there are doubtless other people who don't know as well. Well, it depends whether you count the so-called Parish Church Cathedrals, but I don't. So I would say that there are twenty-six cathedrals, sort of in the canon, the famous old cathedrals, including a few churches like St Albans and Southall, which were made cathedrals in the 19th century, which were still old churches. There were seventeen cathedrals, we know, at the time of the Reformation.

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Then, of course, since then there have been four new cathedrals.

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And uh a lot of parish churches that have been elevated to cathedrals, so there are over forty now.

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You know them as possibly as well as any one. Which is your favourite cathedral? Well, I used to be asked

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this question and say that I can't say. I can only say which of the four favourites.

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But I now think I can save.

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And I think it would be Lincoln. Not one of the best known, really. No, it isn't, because see, Lincoln isn't on the way to anywhere. They said this to me at Lincoln. Nobody comes to see us because we're not on the way to anywhere. But of course, when the Humber Bridge opens, there will be more on the way.

Speaker 416:30

Way too many.

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And still on an ecclesiastical subject, you wrote a book with a charming title, English Parish Churches as Works of Art.

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That took a lot of travelling. Yes, it did, but I had done the travelling through about forty years.

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So really you've covered the whole of the United Kingdom? No, not yet. That's the job.

Alec Clifton-Taylor16:52

Yeah, just

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But I have all the same. I trustfully think I can say I've seen all the major churches, yes.

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And then you wrote about English brickwork. Now that sounds a rather specialized subject, but the book itself deals with all kinds of brickwork in all kinds of building, lowly and very high and very grand.

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Yes. And fascinating.

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Well, it was a a subject of course which I had already tackled in the pattern of English building.

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And then this was a more specialized book, which I did with Ronald Bronskill.

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And you did Six English Towns, your your television series. Um we'll talk about your television work in a minute. Six English Towns really is the script

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The revised script of those six programmes which you'll put into a book. Yes. It's got got quite a lot in it, you know, that wasn't in the programmes. It's also got a little bit.

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uh left out that was in the programme because some of the things uh didn't translate into book form easily, so I I had to cut them out. But there's quite a lot in that wasn't in the programme.

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Record number five.

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Well, let's have a complete change of mood now. Uh I should like to have something by Neural card.

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Because CAD always meant a great deal to me.

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I loved him as a playwright, as an actor.

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and as a composer of light music, and as a personality.

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In fact, on his seventieth birthday,

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I wrote to him.

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And I said thank you for having given me more pleasure in my life than anybody else that I haven't known personally.

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And he wrote very charming. Thank you for your charming tunnel. What's he going to do on your record? Well, I think we must have.

Alec Clifton-Taylor18:37

Yeah.

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No card at Las Vegas. Let's have Alice's at it again.

Speaker 218:43

Her dear old white headed mother

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Wistfully sipping champagne.

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Hey.

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Said we've spoiled our child, spared the rod, Open up the caviar and say thank God, We've got no cause to complain.

Speaker 418:59

Yeah.

Speaker 219:00

And this is empty again.

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Alice is indeed at it again.

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Uh when did television come into your life?

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Well, the very first time is in Singapore.

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I was interviewed by a Chinese architect.

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and I shall always remember it because it was, I think, the only occasion in my life when I had been made up

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And um

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He looked absolutely marvellous, and I looked in the mirror and I thought, Well, I've never had such a good face as this. But at the end of the programme it was all wiped off, and there we were back in our silly old faces. It was rather disappointing.

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The first time in England was when in nineteen seventy five

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The B B C did for European Architectural Heritage the serious spirit of the age.

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That consisted of eight programmes which tried to give a picture of English architecture through the ages by eight different people.

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and I was lucky enough to be invited to do the mediaeval period.

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So that gave me the chance of talking about my beloved Lincoln Cathedral. Oh, yes, of course.

Alec Clifton-Taylor20:10

How can you?

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And six English towns, which we've already talked about, are a wander round six beautiful small towns. Was it an arbitrary choice of six? No, not at all arbitrary. It was, on the contrary, very, very carefully considered. I mean, everything was balanced against something else.

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And it was exceedingly difficult.

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To uh to settle which six. I actually chose three of them pretty quickly, but the other three, my goodness, were difficult.

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Required number six.

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Well, I should like some more piano music at this point. I've already said that I am very fond of piano music. I would like some foulry. Um.

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The impromptu in F minor.

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The Foray Impromptu in F minor opus thirty one number two played by Joseph Cooper.

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Now, Alec, we've heard something from you uh about the theory of architecture. What about the practice? How good a builder are you yourself? You're on this desert island, you've got to build somewhere to live. Yes. Yes. But I should think I'd be absolutely hopeless. Really? The only thing is that I um in one of my um tropical islands I was told a great deal about coconut palms. And one of the things that I learned was that the wood is admirable for building a hut.

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and providing rafters for the roof, and that the leaves are a very good substitute for thatch. So if I could get something to chop this cocoanut, I might get at it and do that.

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Would you try to escape? Good heavens, no.

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Any craft that I made would sink within five seconds.

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Right. Uh record number seven. Record number seven. We must go back to Brahms.

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And for me the

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Valencaccetto of Brahms is a supreme Valencaceto, one of the most glorious works of music in the world.

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Neville Cardus wrote, The fiddle muses upon the grave loveliness in some of the most rap decoration ever written. I love that.

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The Brahms Violin Concerto Yehudi Menuen with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Rudolph Kempe.

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Which brings us now to your last record. Well, for that I have chosen the signature tune by Thomas Arne.

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that we had for the television series that you kindly referred to as Six English Towns. I got very fond of it. It was chosen by my producer, Denis Moriarte, and I think that it would evoke all kinds of pleasant memories if I could have that on my island.

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Ann's Symphony No. Two in F, The Bournemouth Sinfonietta conducted by Kenneth Montgomery. If you could take just one disc, which would it be?

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It would be the panel pieces of bronze. And one luxury to take with you?

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Could I have a Sames cat?

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No.

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Now I'm awfully sorry, it has to be inanimate. This is something that, right? Yes, it's been in the rules for years and years and years.

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Well

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I would have a super comfortable divan bed.

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And you would have to provide cushions, and I think an awning also.

Presenter26:19

Well, at any rate we'll give you a waterproof cover from what you say about your capabilities and

Alec Clifton-Taylor26:21

Yeah.

Presenter26:24

Buildings on me. What we've probably and one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare and Big Encyclopedia. Could I have the Shell County Guides, a set of them? A set of the Shell County Guides. Yes, I think that counts as one work. Certainly. Well, that would be a perpetual pleasure living in England again through those books. Right. And thank you, Alec Clifton Taylor, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Well, thank you for asking me.

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Goodbye, everyone.

Alec Clifton-Taylor27:00

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.