Barbara Pym

Speaker 40:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 40:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:32

Our castaway this week is the novelist Barbara Pym.

Presenter0:36

Let's start straight off with you introducing your first disc. Which one would you grab first in a sinking chip?

Barbara Pym0:42

I'd like to start off with the Rosen Cavalier waltz.

Presenter0:46

Why do you do that?

Barbara Pym0:47

Well, I think I'd like something really invigorating and uh the sort of thing that would make me feel happy and cheerful and I think that would.

Presenter1:54

The Baron Oxwalts from the second act of Richard Strussey's

Presenter1:58

Deros and Cavalier.

Presenter1:59

The Concert Gabal Orchestra of Amsterdam, conducted by Eugen Joachim.

Presenter2:04

Is music important in your life, Miss Pim?

Barbara Pym2:08

Well, um I wouldn't call myself a musical person, and yet I do like music, certain kinds of music.

Presenter2:14

Have you any skill do you play the piano?

Barbara Pym2:17

I did learn to play the piano when I was at school, but I've long since given that that up, and I'm afraid I haven't any skill at all now. I might sing occasionally.

Presenter2:25

I'm not

Presenter2:26

Yeah.

Barbara Pym2:27

I mean, have you ever

Presenter2:28

The sung in public.

Barbara Pym2:28

Yeah.

Presenter2:28

Yeah.

Barbara Pym2:29

I've only sung in uh things like the Bach Choir at Oxford and

Barbara Pym2:34

I like singing about the house or

Barbara Pym2:38

On the island I'm sure I'd sing quite a lot of things. Have you a wide repertoire?

Barbara Pym2:42

quite wide because I'm very fond of uh

Barbara Pym2:46

so-called pop songs, or what used to be pop songs when I was younger. That's why I haven't chosen to take any with me, because I feel I could sing them myself.

Presenter2:56

Your first record was to cheer you up. Is there any kind of scheme in choosing the eight?

Barbara Pym3:02

No, no scheme really, except that I have

Barbara Pym3:06

Chosen things that I know that I really like.

Presenter3:09

What's the second one?

Barbara Pym3:10

The second one is a chopin variations on La Cida Reme from Mozart's Don Giovanni. This again is rather brilliant, invigorating sort of music, and the piano part is so marvellous, I would have liked to be able to play the piano, but

Barbara Pym3:31

I never could, and I like to hear it really brilliantly played as it is here.

Presenter4:34

An excerpt from Chopin's variations on Give Me Your Hand, the duet from Mozart's Don Giovanni.

Presenter4:41

Played by Claudio Arrow with the London Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter4:45

What part of the country are you from?

Barbara Pym4:47

Originally I come from Shropshire.

Barbara Pym4:50

But I now um live in West Oxfordshire.

Presenter4:53

Were you a bookish girl?

Barbara Pym4:56

I suppose I was. I did read a lot. Um when I was

Barbara Pym5:01

A schoolgirl? Anything to do? Well, I was very fond of thrillers. Edgar Wallace was a favorite author. But it it wasn't until I was in my sort of middle teens that I used to read poetry and

Presenter5:02

Anything?

Presenter5:07

Yes.

Presenter5:16

Which writers apart from Edgar Wallace made an early impression?

Barbara Pym5:16

Which fragment

Barbara Pym5:21

But I suppose the first really.

Barbara Pym5:24

Good writer, perhaps, that made an impression was Aldous Huxley. I read Chrome Yellow when I was about sixteen.

Barbara Pym5:32

I thought that was marvellous.

Presenter5:34

Did that inspire you to write yourself?

Barbara Pym5:36

Well, it inspired me with the idea. Certainly, I thought I'd like to write something like that.

Presenter5:42

You did, in fact, write a novel while you were in school.

Barbara Pym5:44

Yes, um I I wrote and actually finished the novel when I was sixteen. It wasn't published, of course, but uh it was finished, which uh was uh quite an achievement, really. All in all in handwriting too.

Presenter5:57

All in handwriting, too.

Barbara Pym6:00

Was it?

Presenter6:00

Yeah.

Barbara Pym6:00

Met it?

Presenter6:00

Yeah.

Barbara Pym6:01

No, no, I never did anything with it.

Presenter6:04

You went up to Oxford to read English with anything definite in view, or just because you wanted to learn more about English.

Barbara Pym6:11

Well, I think I had the idea that I would be a writer, but of course at that age you can't really say I am going to be a writer. It's a hopeless sort of thing to say.

Presenter6:22

Did you write an oxid?

Barbara Pym6:23

Not very much, no. I hardly wrote at all, I was too busy.

Barbara Pym6:28

just enjoying life and I've worked fairly hard at my degree and

Presenter6:33

Yes, you took an honours degree. Of course you sang in the Bach choir, you said.

Barbara Pym6:33

No honest degree.

Barbara Pym6:36

Yes, and uh oh, there were various interests and amusements.

Presenter6:43

And when you came down?

Barbara Pym6:44

Well, when I came down I did

Barbara Pym6:46

Then really try and write a novel.

Barbara Pym6:50

and I stayed at home in Shropshire for a bit, because in those days

Barbara Pym6:55

I don't think.

Barbara Pym6:56

one was expected to have so much of a career as one would now, and if your ambition is to be a writer, of course you are.

Barbara Pym7:06

Apt to stay at home and sit around trying to write, which which is rather discouraging, really. If I had my time over again, I think I would.

Barbara Pym7:17

Uh find something more definite to do.

Presenter7:20

Quite soon the war came along, which did give you something definite to do. You donned uniform.

Barbara Pym7:25

Yes, yes, I was in the Reins.

Presenter7:27

Where did you serve?

Barbara Pym7:28

I served uh first of all in South End, then in Bewley in the New Forest, and then I was sent um overseas to Naples.

Presenter7:38

What were you doing there?

Barbara Pym7:39

I was a censor officer, which sounds rather a strange thing, reading um sailors' letters and that sort of thing.

Presenter7:48

Yes, but Naples must have been fascinating.

Barbara Pym7:51

Oh yes. Yes, I was there nearly a year. That was a marvellous time. Among other things that I did was to go to the Sankala Opera House and there, for the first time, I heard several operas, including Tosca, which has always been my favourite.

Barbara Pym8:09

And I think on the island I'd like to take a record from Tosca. Careless singing Vici Darte would be my choice.

Speaker 48:23

Simple.

Speaker 48:42

Uh

Speaker 48:58

Oh dear, very good, mercy glory, and

Presenter9:18

Maria Callas singing Vissi Darte from the second act of Buccini's Tosca.

Presenter9:24

No, the war was over. What happened then?

Barbara Pym9:27

After the war I was in London for a short time before I was demobbed.

Barbara Pym9:33

Uh that must have been in

Barbara Pym9:35

I think it was March nineteen forty six, and then I got a job at the International African Institute.

Presenter9:42

What goes on there?

Barbara Pym9:43

Well, it was an institution to promote research into

Barbara Pym9:48

African languages and cultures, and my job was mainly editorial. I was uh seeing um works through the press and working on the journal Africa, which we published.

Presenter10:02

Now when did you get down to writing again?

Barbara Pym10:04

I think I started writing again.

Barbara Pym10:07

About nineteen forty-eight or nine, because I thought that during the war I'd more or less given it up, but somehow

Barbara Pym10:16

Writing gets hold of you in a curious way, and I couldn't really leave it alone.

Presenter10:21

Were any later influences at work?

Barbara Pym10:25

Well, I wasn't aware of any influences, because the first novel that I submitted was one that I had written.

Barbara Pym10:32

some time before, and I rewrote it and sent it off to a publisher.

Presenter10:37

Was it accepted by that first public?

Barbara Pym10:38

Yes.

Presenter10:43

And then you fell into a kind of pattern of one novel every two years.

Barbara Pym10:46

Yes, it did seem to work out like that. I was working.

Barbara Pym10:51

uh at my job and I could only write at weekends or in the even

Presenter10:55

Nings. Were you tempted to drop your job and become a full-time professional writer?

Barbara Pym11:00

Not seriously, because I haven't got the temperament that can write. If I haven't got any income coming in, I would I would be too anxious to

Barbara Pym11:12

create anything at all, I think.

Presenter11:15

Now all your books are about people in a sphere which you understand. They're middle class, educated people, and they live on the whole unsensational lives. Is that true?

Barbara Pym11:25

Yes, I think it I think it is true.

Presenter11:27

True, yes. The church plays a a fairly prominent part in your books, as I I believe it does in your life.

Barbara Pym11:32

Yes, yes, indeed, it always has.

Barbara Pym11:35

And uh I've written about it I I should think more than perhaps than almost any other novelist I could say.

Presenter11:41

Oh yeah.

Presenter11:43

Let's have another record, number four.

Barbara Pym11:45

I'd like to have Philip Larkin reading one of his poems.

Barbara Pym11:50

I think I'd like to have the voice of somebody I know on this desert island.

Barbara Pym11:54

And the poem I have chosen is An Arundel Tomb, which is one of my favourites.

Barbara Pym12:00

It's about a tombstone where two statues lie hand in hand.

Speaker 212:05

They would not think to lie so long.

Speaker 212:09

Such faithfulness in effigy

Speaker 212:11

Was just a detail friends would see

Speaker 212:14

A sculptor's sweet commissioned grace Thrown off in helping to prolong The Latin names around the base.

Speaker 212:23

They would not guess how early in their supine stationary voyage

Speaker 212:29

The air would change to soundless damage.

Speaker 212:32

Turn the old tenantry away.

Speaker 212:35

Philip Larkin, we

Presenter12:36

reading his own poem, An Arundel Tomb.

Presenter12:40

So one novel every two years for twelve or fourteen years, and then something came unstuck, and it

Barbara Pym12:48

Yes, indeed. In nineteen sixty three

Barbara Pym12:52

I sent my seventh novel to my publisher, and he told me he didn't want it.

Presenter12:58

Now your sales had been steady, if not sensational. What reason did he give?

Barbara Pym13:03

Well, I think this was the time when the so called swinging sixties were starting, and I think quite a lot of publishers had the idea that the kind of thing I was writing

Barbara Pym13:15

was neither salable nor liked by readers.

Presenter13:19

Did you go ahead and submit it to other publishers?

Barbara Pym13:21

Well, yes, I sent it to several other publishers, but they all said the same thing.

Presenter13:26

But you went ahead, you you wrote another one.

Barbara Pym13:29

Yes, I did go on writing, though wi with less enthusiasm. I had to go on, really. I couldn't stop.

Presenter13:35

Did you attempt to change your style consciously for the swinging sixties?

Barbara Pym13:40

No, I didn't, because I didn't think I should be able to. The only thing I did was to adopt a man's name once when I was sending out one of my novels. I thought that might give me some kind of pull, but it didn't have any effect, because presumably the novel inside was just the same. Just as unsaleable.

Presenter14:01

It must have been a terribly discouraging time.

Presenter14:04

You kept writing and rewriting.

Barbara Pym14:07

Yes, I did. I I suppose I was

Barbara Pym14:11

not as enthusiastic as I had been when I was published, and I really began to feel that

Barbara Pym14:17

I had written novels. I was lucky to have

Barbara Pym14:21

been published at all, and that was that.

Presenter14:24

How long did this period of discouragement last?

Barbara Pym14:28

Well, it's a long time. It must have lasted, um, about uh sixteen, fifteen, sixteen years.

Presenter14:35

And what changed things?

Barbara Pym14:38

Well, what changed things was the fact that the Times Literary Supplement

Barbara Pym14:43

were celebrating their seventy fifth year of publication by asking various critics and writers

Barbara Pym14:53

to list the writers that they thought were either overrated or underrated.

Barbara Pym14:59

and both Lord David Cecil and Philip Larkin named me, Barbara Pym, as being underrated.

Presenter15:06

And that really made a difference.

Barbara Pym15:08

Yes, it did, because I was the only person who was named twice.

Presenter15:12

Yes.

Barbara Pym15:12

And of course, then people began asking, Well, who is this? We've never heard of her. Who is Barbara Pym?

Presenter15:19

Novel circular

Barbara Pym15:20

Creating at that point.

Presenter15:20

Time.

Barbara Pym15:21

Yes, it was very lucky. I had written a novel, and it was at that time with a publisher.

Presenter15:28

Had it been to your original publisher?

Barbara Pym15:30

I had sent it to my original publisher, and they had sent it back.

Presenter15:34

They turned it down. Yes, yes, yes. So they lost you, as it were. They lost me. No good for them.

Barbara Pym15:35

Yes, yes, yes. They lost me.

Barbara Pym15:40

They did write when the Times Literary Supplement uh feature came out and asked me what had happened to the manuscript. I think they would be prepared to consider it more favourably then. Now what was this manuscript? What was it? This manuscript was the novel uh called Quartet in Autumn, which is about four people.

Presenter15:48

He wanted it back.

Presenter15:57

This then is

Barbara Pym16:03

Working in a London office on the verge of retirement. You had written it on the verge of retirement when you were about to leave.

Presenter16:09

Were you about to leave your own off?

Barbara Pym16:11

Indeed, yes. The the uh subject uh had been inspired by the fact that I was on the verge of retirement.

Presenter16:12

Yeah.

Barbara Pym16:18

And I was considering all the sort of problems and well, not problems so much as comic situations that could arise.

Presenter16:30

Let's break for another disk, pop an arc.

Barbara Pym16:33

Um now I should think I should like a splendid piece of organ music.

Presenter16:37

A celebratory sort of thing.

Barbara Pym16:39

Um well, partly that, and also if there was a storm on the island, perhaps it might drown the thunder.

Barbara Pym16:47

I think I should like a piece by Miss Yin, because although I don't know much about organ music, I feel that something of his would be just what I would need on this island.

Presenter17:59

The opening of Les Enfant de Dieu from Messaen's La Natifite du Seigneur, played by Simon Preston in Westminster Abbey.

Presenter18:09

Now your novel about retirement, Quartet in Autumn, did very well indeed, didn't it?

Barbara Pym18:14

Yes, I was very lucky it was shortlisted for the Booker Prize.

Presenter18:18

and some of the old ones are being reissued.

Barbara Pym18:21

Yes, two of the older ones were reissued at the same time, and I think they're all going to be reissued eventually.

Presenter18:28

You have a new one that's just come out, the The Sweet Dove Died.

Barbara Pym18:32

Yes, yes, that's just been published.

Presenter18:35

Now here you are, surely, in the in the seventies stream.

Barbara Pym18:38

Yes, I suppose you could say that it was.

Barbara Pym18:41

a more uh contemporary subject than some of the ones I've dealt with. But I didn't do that purposely. I think I did it because I was interested in the relationship between

Barbara Pym18:55

An older

Barbara Pym18:56

woman and a younger man, and I felt that nobody had really written about it very much.

Presenter19:01

What happened to all the novels you wrote during your period of

Presenter19:05

of of Stresen and

Presenter19:08

Trial Have they been abandoned?

Barbara Pym19:10

I've still got them.

Barbara Pym19:12

I wouldn't say they've been abandoned exactly, but

Barbara Pym19:16

I don't think I would want to publish any of them in the form they now are, but

Barbara Pym19:21

They have quite good bits in them that I think I could make use of.

Presenter19:25

Have you a novel on the stocks at the moment?

Barbara Pym19:28

Yes, I am writing one. I suppose I've done about a third of it, but it needs a lot of revision and work on it before I can say that it's

Barbara Pym19:37

In any sort of final form. So retirement is pretty busy.

Presenter19:41

Uh

Barbara Pym19:41

It is indeed, yes. I find uh

Barbara Pym19:45

Many, many things to do.

Presenter19:48

Where did you retire to after the Hurley Burley of London?

Barbara Pym19:51

My sister and I found a cottage in West Oxfordshire, about twelve miles west of Oxford. We'd always wanted to live.

Barbara Pym19:59

in that part of the world because we were both at Oxford and we liked

Barbara Pym20:04

the idea of being near Oxford, and there's very nice country round there too.

Presenter20:09

How disciplined are you as a writer? Do you work regular hours, or so many pages a day?

Barbara Pym20:15

I'm not as disciplined as I ought to be, though in theory I try to write every morning. If I've written

Barbara Pym20:22

two pages uh which is about

Barbara Pym20:26

On my typewriter works out at about eight hundred words. I'm quite pleased with myself.

Barbara Pym20:33

Do you keep notebooks? Yes, I've always kept notebooks. I found that very useful.

Presenter20:38

Of characters, snatches of conversations, situations, details.

Barbara Pym20:42

Everything, yes, everything like that. Quotations, um

Barbara Pym20:47

There are things that have happened to me, almost like a diary, or things that

Barbara Pym20:52

I would like to put into a novel.

Barbara Pym20:54

Or even um things that

Barbara Pym20:58

that I remember, you know, from the past.

Presenter21:01

So we're all feeding you situations and information.

Barbara Pym21:06

Yes, yes, one never knows when when something may

Presenter21:08

It's a good idea.

Barbara Pym21:09

Coming useful. You don't realize that you're doing it at the time. It's what it wants us, say, emotion, recollected in tranquillity. It's more like that, I think.

Presenter21:21

Another record, please.

Barbara Pym21:22

The next record is a song by Theodor Arkis, which reminds me of the first time I ever went to Greece in nineteen sixty four.

Speaker 421:36

Asamé do merci me.

Speaker 421:43

Maturogari.

Speaker 421:51

I saw it matur.

Presenter22:05

A song by Theodorakis sung by Grigoris Pittikotsis.

Presenter22:09

Now a few words about your capabilities as a castaway. Are you a practical person?

Barbara Pym22:14

Well, I'm fairly practical in that I'm fond of domestic things like cooking and sewing and dressmaking.

Presenter22:23

You're a good gardener, I believe.

Barbara Pym22:24

Not bad.

Presenter22:25

Well, that's a help if you cultivate something.

Presenter22:28

Any ideas on shelter?

Presenter22:30

and making one.

Barbara Pym22:32

Well, I think that would be a difficulty, because I'm no good at carpentry or anything like that.

Barbara Pym22:38

But I expect I could contrive something with leaves and branches.

Presenter22:43

Now, as an ex wren, would you try to escape? How's your navigation?

Barbara Pym22:47

No, I wouldn't try to escape. I'm too frightened of the sea.

Presenter22:51

Record number seven, we've got to.

Barbara Pym22:53

Number seven.

Barbara Pym22:55

I would like to have a splendid chardash.

Barbara Pym22:59

The one from um Fledermaus I think would be nice to have. It would remind me of

Barbara Pym23:05

Old Vienna, I say, although I never went to Old Vienna, but it's a romantic period that I

Barbara Pym23:12

Like to be reminded of.

Presenter23:14

Would you like it sung or played?

Barbara Pym23:16

Playhead, I think.

Presenter24:10

The Chadas from

Presenter24:12

Johann Strauss's Diefledemaus, played by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Willi Boskowski. Which brings us to your last record.

Barbara Pym24:21

My last record I feel that if I were on the island over Christmas, as I might very well be, I should like to have a carol I should like to have in the bleak mid winter in the Harold Dark setting, sung, I think, by the choir of King's College, Cambridge.

Speaker 424:49

Oh see we

Speaker 424:55

Let's do a point in song.

Speaker 425:01

What a life restore.

Presenter25:41

The carol In the Bleak Mid Winter, sung by the choir of King's College, Cambridge, conducted by David Wilcox.

Presenter25:47

If you could take only one disc out of the eight you've played us.

Barbara Pym25:52

That's a difficult question, but I think it would be the last one, in the bleak midwinter.

Presenter25:57

and one luxury to take with you.

Barbara Pym25:59

I should like to take um a case of wine with me, because I don't think I should be able to

Barbara Pym26:05

Make wine out of whatever is on the island.

Presenter26:08

Well, I think a case is very modest.

Barbara Pym26:09

Would a case be washed ashore, perhaps?

Presenter26:12

Let us say a supply of wires.

Barbara Pym26:14

A case of white wine.

Presenter26:15

White wine German, French, Italian, Spanish.

Barbara Pym26:19

German, I think.

Presenter26:20

Right.

Presenter26:21

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare and big encyclopedias.

Barbara Pym26:26

I think I should choose a novel, probably. I would like to have

Barbara Pym26:31

The Golden Bowl by Henry James.

Presenter26:34

The Golden Bowl by Henry James. And thank you, Barbara Pym, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Barbara Pym26:41

Thank you. I only hope that the casting away will be as nice as the talking about it has been. Thank you.

Presenter26:48

Cool.

Barbara Pym26:48

Bye everyone.

Presenter26:48

What?

Barbara Pym26:49

Yeah.

Speaker 426:58

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.