Sir John Glubb

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 30:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

This week our castaway is a soldier.

Presenter0:34

Lieutenant General Sir John Glubb, perhaps better known as Glubb Pasha.

Presenter0:39

Sir John, have you ever experienced loneliness?

Sir John Glubb0:43

I don't think so, no. Of course, if you're a soldier, you aren't lonely. The great thing about soldiering is comradeship.

Sir John Glubb0:50

Do you think you could endure loneliness?

Sir John Glubb0:52

I shouldn't like it, I don't think.

Sir John Glubb0:55

What would you be happiest to have got away from?

Sir John Glubb0:58

Oh politicians

Sir John Glubb1:00

All the time.

Presenter1:01

Does music mean a lot to you?

Sir John Glubb1:04

Well, when I was a boy at school

Sir John Glubb1:08

Boys weren't taught music. It was looked upon as rather a sissy sort of occupation and so I never have been taught anything about music.

Sir John Glubb1:17

but I have derived a very great deal of pleasure from it.

Presenter1:21

Did you have any plan in choosing your

Presenter1:23

meagre ration of eight record.

Sir John Glubb1:26

Well, more or less uh chronological. I started off uh with the beginning of my career.

Sir John Glubb1:33

and the records go forward gradually as I get slightly older.

Presenter1:37

Right, where do we start?

Sir John Glubb1:39

Uh well, I put the March Pass of the Royal Engineers first, because I started my life as a regular officer in the Royal Engineers.

Presenter2:48

Wings, the march past of the Royal Engineers played by the band of the Corps of Royal Engineers.

Presenter2:55

What part of the country do you come from, Sujan?

Sir John Glubb2:57

Well, originally our family came from Devon and Cornwall for many centuries.

Sir John Glubb3:03

But my great grandfather, who was a parson,

Sir John Glubb3:07

got a living in Sussex and since then we've had three generations in Sussex.

Presenter3:13

Most of your forebears opted for the church or the army.

Sir John Glubb3:16

Yes, there was the odd lawyer, but we don't say much about them.

Presenter3:21

Your father was a a major general in the Royal Engineers. How early in life did you decide you were going to be a soldier?

Sir John Glubb3:28

Oh, there was never any question of my being anything else. The thing was never discussed, it was assumed.

Presenter3:35

When the First World War broke out you were already in a military camp at that moment.

Sir John Glubb3:39

While I was in the officers' training corps camp actually and war was declared.

Presenter3:43

Yes, your your school, ACC.

Presenter3:47

So you went on to the Royal Military Academy.

Presenter3:50

You couldn't be sent to the front until you were

Sir John Glubb3:53

Eighteen and a half.

Presenter3:53

Thank you.

Sir John Glubb3:54

Mm.

Presenter3:55

So you went out there.

Sir John Glubb3:56

In October 1915.

Presenter3:59

You've just published the diary of your experiences on the Western Front. You called it Into Battle.

Presenter4:06

And

Presenter4:08

For an eighteen and a half year old boy it it's tremendously moving. Your matter of factness, your acceptance of the horrors of that dreadful campaign make it even more poignant.

Presenter4:21

It must have been rather

Presenter4:23

Curious feeling to look back on those diaries. Where had you kept them? Had you read them through the years?

Sir John Glubb4:29

No, I hadn't seen them for fifty years.

Sir John Glubb4:32

My father and mother were living in England the first part of my time in the Middle East. Then they both died.

Sir John Glubb4:39

and all our possessions were put in store.

Sir John Glubb4:42

and this diary, written in a number of old copy books, was in a trunk with our stored uh possessions.

Sir John Glubb4:50

And without nail

Sir John Glubb4:52

About ten years ago, I suppose.

Sir John Glubb4:55

I was looking through some of these old family boxes, and I came across this diary.

Presenter5:00

Stained with Flanders mud, is it?

Presenter5:04

Yes, you were in the Ypres salient on the Somme in Arras, Cambrai, you went right through it.

Sir John Glubb5:09

Yeah.

Presenter5:10

You were wounded several times.

Sir John Glubb5:12

Yes.

Presenter5:13

the third time, I think, badly, but

Presenter5:16

You were in France again before the armistice.

Sir John Glubb5:18

Just in time. I had about four months at the end.

Presenter5:22

Let's have your second record.

Sir John Glubb5:25

Well, I've chosen a rather sentimental one, the Rustle of Spring, by Sinding, because my mother used to play this at home when I was a child.

Presenter6:29

Russell of Spring played by Joseph Cooper.

Presenter6:32

Now when the first war was over, what happened to you?

Sir John Glubb6:36

Well, we'd been rushed through very fast.

Sir John Glubb6:39

Uh in nineteen fifteen, because they were so short of officers.

Sir John Glubb6:44

and after the wars as a regular officer,

Sir John Glubb6:47

I was brought back to England for what they call a supplementary course.

Sir John Glubb6:52

to make up for the training we hadn't had before the war.

Presenter6:55

which might have been rather useful during the war.

Sir John Glubb6:58

Well, uh actually, you see, when we were brought back after the war we thought we knew something about wars.

Sir John Glubb7:05

and as well surp annoyed when we got home to be told that now we got to learn about soldiering.

Presenter7:11

Yeah.

Presenter7:13

Then you went off to it.

Sir John Glubb7:15

Iraq

Sir John Glubb7:16

Yes, well, I got rather tired of England, and fortunately my course finished.

Sir John Glubb7:21

In the summer of nineteen twenty,

Sir John Glubb7:25

And uh as there was trouble in Iraq and everybody wanted to be demobilized, the War Office asked for officer volunteers to go out to Iraq. Yes, what was going on there?

Sir John Glubb7:37

Oh, they had their sort of tribal risings and so on. The trouble was they were so long making peace.

Sir John Glubb7:44

That Iraq remained for years under military occupation, not knowing what its future was going to be.

Presenter7:52

You learned Arabic well, not just army Arabic. You you learned it properly because you wanted to.

Sir John Glubb7:58

Oh, I was almost bilingual. I was as fluent in Arabic as I was in English, I think.

Presenter8:03

Yes. I think there's something we ought to get straight if we're going to talk about the the Middle East in general. The Arabs are not a race, it it is a linguistic group.

Sir John Glubb8:13

Well, uh I think the closest parallel

Sir John Glubb8:17

is that the Arab Empire succeeded the Roman Empire, but was half as big again.

Sir John Glubb8:24

And it left its language everywhere from Spain to India, Pakistan.

Sir John Glubb8:33

And all these people are now called Arabs by us. It's as though everybody in Western Europe were called Romans.

Sir John Glubb8:41

They are all different races in different countries, but they all were part of the Arab Empire at one time.

Presenter8:50

Now you served for six years in Iraq, then you resigned your commission.

Sir John Glubb8:55

Yes, because uh the War Office wrote and said I'd got to come back to England again. I'd been away from the army long enough.

Sir John Glubb9:04

By that time I had become so engrossed

Sir John Glubb9:07

In Iraq.

Sir John Glubb9:09

that I resigned my commission and I got a contract with the Iraq Government as an administrative inspector.

Presenter9:16

What did that involve? What were your duties?

Sir John Glubb9:18

Well, that was a civilian job.

Sir John Glubb9:21

I spent it almost entirely up and down the Euphrates, where I was supposed to be inspecting the civil administration.

Sir John Glubb9:30

which involved a good deal of uh

Sir John Glubb9:32

law and order and tribal disturbances.

Sir John Glubb9:36

and at the latter part

Sir John Glubb9:38

I became involved in preventing raiding in the desert.

Sir John Glubb9:43

And then hostilities on the Saudi Arabian frontier.

Sir John Glubb9:49

So I rather specialized in desert tribes for the last two or three years.

Presenter9:54

So in other words, you were going back to soldiering again.

Sir John Glubb9:57

It was very soldiering, yes.

Presenter9:59

Yeah.

Presenter9:59

Let's have your third record at this point, Sir John.

Sir John Glubb10:02

Well, I put down I have a song to sing oh, from the Yeoman of the God. It's rather an early romantic one.

Speaker 410:11

It is sung to the moon by a love-lord loon who fled from the mocking throng. It's a son of a merryman loping mum, Whose soul was sad and whose glance was glum, Who sipped no sum and who craved no crumb, as he sighed for the love of a lady. Hey Dead, Hay Dee, Misery me, black lady. He sipped no summon, he craved no crumb, as he sighed for the love of a lady.

Speaker 410:37

I have a song to sing, oh What is your song, oh? It is sung with the ring of the songs made sing, Who love with a love life long, oh It's the song of a many-made peer-to-peer Who loved a Lord and who laughed aloud At the moan of a many-man moping bum Whose soul was sad and whose belance was beloved Who sipped no sop and who craved no crumb As he sighed for the love of a lame

Presenter11:06

I have a song to sing oh from The Yeoman of the God.

Presenter11:10

JOHN READ WITH ELIZABEBHHHHHHHHHH HARWOOD

Presenter11:13

How long altogether were you in the service of the Iraq Government?

Sir John Glubb11:17

Uh five years not quite five years, four four and a bit years.

Presenter11:22

Then you crossed over to the west, to the Mediterranean, to Jordan. Why?

Sir John Glubb11:27

Well, because, you see, I'd become an expert in desert tribes in Iraq.

Sir John Glubb11:32

and the Jordan Government had never attempted to enforce their authority in the desert on their side.

Sir John Glubb11:39

And when they heard I had done this and brought the tribes under control, they asked me to come to Jordan and do the same job for them.

Presenter11:47

You had already been to Jordan, I know in in fact you had ridden across the desert by camel.

Sir John Glubb11:53

That's in nineteen twenty five. I took local leave and rode across from Baghdad to Oman on a camel.

Presenter11:59

With how many companions?

Sir John Glubb12:01

Or, strictly speaking, one of my own, and we picked up a tribesman on the way now and again.

Sir John Glubb12:08

Did you wear Arab clothes? Yes, of course.

Presenter12:12

In Jordan you organized a force called the Desert Patrol.

Sir John Glubb12:16

Nails

Presenter12:17

What exactly was that? Was this the beginning of the of the Jordan army?

Sir John Glubb12:22

In a sense, the

Sir John Glubb12:25

Scheme behind the desert patrol was that the desert tribes were out of control.

Sir John Glubb12:31

and my idea was to enlist men from these tribes in order to bring them under control.

Sir John Glubb12:39

And this started rather slowly.

Sir John Glubb12:41

But eventually I got a hundred men.

Sir John Glubb12:45

and very shortly after that they were queuing up to join.

Sir John Glubb12:51

but it avoided a great deal of friction.

Sir John Glubb12:55

If you use regular troops against them, they wouldn't cooperate at all. But here were their own people, guarding and disciplining them.

Presenter13:04

And now as well as doing what one can call police work, sorting out the the rebels, you were also a defence force.

Sir John Glubb13:11

Well, we became an army, but that was during the Second World War.

Sir John Glubb13:17

Before that, it was really an internal security force in Jordan.

Sir John Glubb13:23

But early in the Second World War

Sir John Glubb13:27

Sir Anthony Eden and General Wavell.

Sir John Glubb13:31

Arrived in Amman by air.

Sir John Glubb13:34

and saw King Abdullah

Sir John Glubb13:37

and said, Look here, for heaven's sake, we've got no soldiers. Can you raise soldiers from the Jordanians?

Sir John Glubb13:44

So from that time onward we started raising a military force.

Sir John Glubb13:50

By the end we had fifteen thousand organized as soldiers.

Presenter13:56

Well before we talk about your

Presenter13:59

Exploits and adventures and achievements during the Second World War. Let's have another record.

Sir John Glubb14:05

Well I've chosen another youthful one, home to our mountains, from Chovettore by Verdi.

Presenter14:11

What does this take you back to?

Sir John Glubb14:13

Oh, I think rather early days, actually, but I always liked this tune. One thing is, wherever I was, I usually succeeded in getting hold of a grammar phone you know, one of these clockwork wind up ones.

Sir John Glubb14:27

But it meant that I kept in touch with the tunes I liked.

Speaker 414:35

One day your peace and happiness we shall discover. Then you will see song of your childhood. Then I shall sleep on it as one to

Speaker 415:10

Yeah.

Speaker 415:12

Oh my dear be so I pray I live by

Presenter15:27

Home to Our Mountains from Verdi's Il Trovatore, sung by Charles Craig and Patricia Johnson.

Presenter15:34

Nineteen thirty nine and the Desert Patrol had become the Arab Legion. You were now Club Pasha.

Speaker 415:43

Yes.

Presenter15:43

Yes. C can you describe exactly what that term means, that honor means in Western terms?

Sir John Glubb15:50

Yes, perfectly easily. Uh actually it was a Turkish title in the days of the Ottoman Empire.

Sir John Glubb15:57

who of course included uh practically all the Arab countries.

Sir John Glubb16:02

The Arabs used it for

Sir John Glubb16:04

Thirty, forty years after the Turks had gone, they've abandoned it now.

Sir John Glubb16:11

It was about equivalent to knighthood in Britain.

Sir John Glubb16:15

uh cabinet ministers, governors of provinces,

Sir John Glubb16:20

uh officers commanding divisions

Sir John Glubb16:24

People on that sort of level where you're liable to be knighted in Britain, receive the title of Pasha.

Presenter16:31

Now, you were in command of the Arab Legion. Fifteen thousand men, you say, you you you got this up to.

Sir John Glubb16:37

Uh yes, at the end of the war we had fifteen thousand men.

Presenter16:41

Uh, what was the first duty? What was your first trouble spot disorder?

Sir John Glubb16:46

In april nineteen forty one,

Presenter16:46

Uh

Sir John Glubb16:48

There was a coup d'etat in Baghdad, and the king was driven out.

Sir John Glubb16:53

and a a group of four generals took over the control.

Sir John Glubb16:57

And they declared for Germany and declared war on Britain.

Sir John Glubb17:02

They are expecting the Germans to fly troops in to help them.

Sir John Glubb17:07

So we had to slip in before the Germans arrived.

Presenter17:10

which you did satisfactorily.

Sir John Glubb17:11

Well, we crossed the desert with a column from uh Jordan.

Sir John Glubb17:16

And meanwhile an Indian division landed in Basra and came up the Euphrates under General Slim, who afterwards became so famous as the Conqueror of Burma.

Presenter17:27

And you also campaigned against uh Fichy French influence in Syria?

Sir John Glubb17:32

Well, after that, you see, the Germans started arriving in Syria.

Sir John Glubb17:37

And so General Wavell, Commander in Chief,

Sir John Glubb17:41

Decided we'd better get into Syria before the Germans did.

Sir John Glubb17:45

and we invaded Syria with the British army.

Presenter17:49

You were also in North Africa.

Sir John Glubb17:51

Well, we were just going to go down to the western desert. In fact, we had an advanced party there.

Sir John Glubb17:58

learning about it, one officer which was killed, actually.

Sir John Glubb18:02

But then unfortunately Monty went and defeated the Germans and the whole front moved over to Italy.

Sir John Glubb18:11

And we never caught up.

Presenter18:12

You wanted to take the legion to fight in the Italian campaign.

Sir John Glubb18:16

Yes, what the British Government said.

Sir John Glubb18:19

was really quite reasonable, I suppose.

Sir John Glubb18:22

They said we've got messes of British troops garrisoning and guarding the Middle East.

Sir John Glubb18:28

It's best for the whole cause if the Arab Legion takes over.

Sir John Glubb18:34

communications and guards and everything in the Middle East, and then all the British troops can be taken away and sent to Europe. And that's what happened.

Presenter18:43

Yes, your own theatre of war expanded enormously. I mean, it would cover all of it.

Sir John Glubb18:46

Uh we we worked up as far as the Persian frontier.

Sir John Glubb18:50

In addition to that, at this stage of the war, when the Germans were invading Russia,

Sir John Glubb18:57

The Allies produced a new line of communications from Haifa.

Sir John Glubb19:02

across northern Arabia and up through Persia to supply arms and ammunition to Russia.

Sir John Glubb19:10

So this became a very important line of communications.

Sir John Glubb19:13

We had garrisons all the way along it.

Presenter19:16

Mm-hmm.

Presenter19:17

You brought some of the

Presenter19:19

Legionnaires took to London for the victory parade.

Sir John Glubb19:21

Yes, that's right.

Presenter19:22

That must have been quite a quite an event.

Sir John Glubb19:24

It's a thrill for them.

Presenter19:27

Record number five.

Sir John Glubb19:29

Well, I rather like some of these old English songs. I've chosen Sweet Less of Richmond Hill this time.

Speaker 419:42

On Richmond Hill there lives a lass more bright than Mayday morn, Whose charms all other maids are pass arose without a thorn. This lass so neat, with smiles so sweet, Has won my right good will, I clowns resign to call her mine, Sweet lass of Richmond Hill.

Sir John Glubb19:43

Their leaves are lots more

Sir John Glubb19:56

Wait, my right good win!

Presenter20:07

Kenneth McKellar singing Sweet Lass of Richmond Hill You had built up this very successful and considerable force, then suddenly in nineteen fifty six, on an obviously trumped up charge, you were fired.

Presenter20:20

Now, in your opinion, why?

Sir John Glubb20:22

Oh, it was solely due to NASA.

Sir John Glubb20:25

who was then President of Egypt.

Sir John Glubb20:28

and was at a stage when he had ambitions to be.

Sir John Glubb20:33

The Emperor ought to take the place of Britain, we'll say, in the Middle East, and control all the Arab countries.

Sir John Glubb20:40

And uh

Sir John Glubb20:41

He ran subversive campaigns.

Sir John Glubb20:45

In several Arab countries,

Sir John Glubb20:48

including Jordan.

Sir John Glubb20:50

and I was one of the targets for his subversive campaign.

Presenter20:54

You suddenly found yourself on an aeroplane.

Sir John Glubb20:56

That's right, it is.

Presenter20:57

You had been in the Middle East for nearly forty years, so it meant a a completely fresh start.

Sir John Glubb21:00

Yeah, this

Presenter21:02

Yeah.

Sir John Glubb21:02

Yes.

Presenter21:03

So you started writing

Presenter21:06

Well, what have now become many books history of the Middle East and the Arabs?

Presenter21:11

Autobiography. You wrote a history of the of the Arabs, four volumes, the first comprehensive history that had been written in English, I believe.

Sir John Glubb21:19

Yes, well when I came to England

Sir John Glubb21:22

I was amazed and horrified to find that nobody in England had ever heard about the Arabs, and people used to say to me, Oh, well, they're all savages you see, they've never been civilized.

Sir John Glubb21:34

And I said, Well, excuse me, but they had an empire which was half as big again as the Roman Empire, and lasted for hundreds of years, and nobody in England had ever heard of it even.

Sir John Glubb21:45

So I thought, well, uh, let's put something in English.

Sir John Glubb21:49

so that people who are interested in the history of the Middle East can rarely read about it.

Presenter21:53

And as well as writing, you've also lectured to all sorts of audiences all over the place.

Sir John Glubb21:58

As

Sir John Glubb22:00

Have you been back?

Presenter22:01

to the Middle East since nineteen fifty six.

Sir John Glubb22:03

I haven't been back to Jordan.

Sir John Glubb22:06

As I found myself writing a history of the Arabs, I paid several visits to North Africa and to Spain.

Sir John Glubb22:15

To trace the Arab historical records in those countries.

Sir John Glubb22:20

Actually recent or for the last ten years the Jordanians have been asking me to go back.

Sir John Glubb22:26

But the worst of Arabs is they're so frenziedly hospitable.

Sir John Glubb22:30

that if I went back I know I'd have to have breakfast, lunch, tea, and dinner at a different place every day, and I couldn't take it at my

Presenter22:39

Record number six, please.

Sir John Glubb22:44

Well this is uh these are the likings of my rather later life.

Sir John Glubb22:50

What is Life to Me Without Thee? comes from Glux Orfeo.

Sir John Glubb22:57

And is sung in this record by Kathleen Pellier.

Speaker 423:23

I stole the live born to be.

Speaker 423:38

Feel fine to me.

Speaker 423:48

God is my favorite.

Presenter23:56

What Is Life to Me Without Thee from Gluck's Off Hill sung by Kathleen Fellia.

Presenter24:02

Now you spent

Presenter24:04

Thousands of nights in the desert. Now that experience must in many ways have conditioned you to life on a desert island. You could look after yourself pretty well.

Sir John Glubb24:14

Well, in the sense that I I'm not particularly luxurious.

Sir John Glubb24:18

On the other hand, in the desert one always had the best of company. Could you f

Presenter24:22

Forage for yourself?

Sir John Glubb24:25

Well, it depends what kind of desert island it is. Is there anything to eat there? Oh, yes, yes, yes. Oh, I could certainly forage myself with any food.

Sir John Glubb24:33

Would you try to escape?

Presenter24:36

But that was a good definite yes.

Presenter24:38

How is it?

Sir John Glubb24:40

I think I think a raft would probably be the easiest thing. I'm not enough of a carpenter to build a boat.

Presenter24:47

Right. Record number seven.

Sir John Glubb24:50

I've chosen Eineklein and Achmusik by Mozart.

Presenter24:54

Why have you chosen this?

Sir John Glubb24:56

Well, because I think it's lovely music.

Presenter25:58

The opening of the second movement of Mozart's A Little Night Music

Presenter26:01

The English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Daniel Barremboim.

Presenter26:05

One more. One more record.

Sir John Glubb26:08

Well the last one I've chosen is Jesus Joy of Men's Desiring by Bach, sung by Harry Seacombe.

Speaker 426:55

Wisdom, love, most brother.

Presenter27:16

Geez you would joy of man's desiring, sung by Haddy Seacombe. If you could take just one disc, Sir John, which would it be?

Sir John Glubb27:22

I think I'd take Anaklida Luxmusik.

Presenter27:26

And one luxury to take with you on your desert island.

Sir John Glubb27:30

Well, I don't know if this is a luxury, but what I'd like to have is a packing case full of foolscape paper.

Sir John Glubb27:37

and a hundred ball pointed pens.

Presenter27:39

You're going to write another book.

Sir John Glubb27:41

I am going to keep a diary and write a book.

Presenter27:43

Since Uh Into Battle, your most recent book.

Presenter27:47

What's the new one you've started?

Sir John Glubb27:49

Well, I've written an account of my ten years in Iraq.

Sir John Glubb27:53

which is called Arabian Adventures. It's going to come out, I think, in October of this year.

Presenter27:58

Oh, so this is for yet another one that you haven't started?

Sir John Glubb28:01

Oh yes, lots more.

Presenter28:02

Right.

Presenter28:04

And one book to take with you apart from the Bible and Shakespeare, and we don't allow big encyclopedias.

Sir John Glubb28:11

Well, I think I'd have uh Lord Wavell's anthology of poetry, which he called Other Men's Flowers.

Presenter28:19

Lord Wavell's Other Men's Flowers

Sir John Glubb28:21

Hmm.

Presenter28:22

And thank you, Lieutenant General Sir John Glove, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you. The pleasure was mine. Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 328:39

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.