Paco Peña

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Speaker 30:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

On our desert island this week is the flamenco guitarist Paco Peña.

Presenter0:36

Packard, was it difficult to choose just eight records?

Paco Peña0:39

Incredibly difficult.

Presenter0:40

How did you do set about it?

Paco Peña0:42

Well, I must have some guitar music, obviously. I must have some orchestral music. I love singing, so I wanted to have opera. I can't have opera.

Paco Peña0:52

Uh I wanted some coral material.

Paco Peña0:54

Uh I wanted something to relax by all sorts of things and and also choosing records that that are associated with a particular atmosphere or or a period in my life. And uh as I say, it was terribly difficult.

Presenter1:10

Difficult to cram all those into eight. Nevertheless, you've got a list. What's that first one then?

Paco Peña1:12

Mm.

Paco Peña1:14

Uh Well, it's got to be flamenco. It's it's my first love, and so I would like to play some flamenco by a great singer who sadly died not long ago. She was called La Perla de Cadiz, and this is Fiesta Porbularias.

Paco Peña1:57

Uh

Presenter1:57

Hey guys.

Presenter2:00

Fiesta Porbularius, sung by The Pearl of Cadiz, is that right?

Paco Peña2:04

Yeah.

Presenter2:06

Now musicians of course have to take care of their hands, which means that very often they're not very practical people. How efficient do you think you would be as a castaway?

Paco Peña2:15

Now and then I like the challenge to to have to make something which is not there. Um Like a shelter, for instance. Exactly. Could you make that? I'm sure I could, yes. I I don't know how, but I certainly I would I would do something like that.

Presenter2:21

Like a shelter, for instance, could you make that?

Presenter2:29

Can you grow things?

Paco Peña2:31

Well, I I couldn't say I have green fingers, but I think probably remembering all the conversations with my mother, I used to sell vegetables with her in the in the market, just thinking carefully of what she

Presenter2:41

Um

Paco Peña2:44

you know, all the years I've spent with her, I might remember enough.

Presenter2:47

Would you try to escape?

Paco Peña2:49

Well, all I can say is that I would stick it out for a while. I just don't know what would be better. I think for a for a time I would try to stay.

Presenter2:56

See how you like it. What's your second record? Uh

Paco Peña3:00

When I was a kid

Paco Peña3:02

We we used to go to church such a lot.

Paco Peña3:04

And

Paco Peña3:05

Somehow at times the atmosphere of the church was so beautiful, I found myself even, you know, with wet eyes with emotion. And of course I was so small I di didn't even realize what it was, and later I realized it was the music. So I would like to choose some music associated with that atmosphere, and I've chosen the Agnus Dei from Beethoven's Misus Lemnis.

Presenter4:21

The opening of the Agnus D from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, a recording conducted by Herbert von Carian.

Presenter4:29

What part of Spain do you come from?

Paco Peña4:31

From Cordoba.

Presenter4:32

Cordoba it's in the south, near Seville and Granada.

Paco Peña4:35

Yes, yes, in Andalusia. Mm-hmm.

Presenter4:37

And of course Anta Lucia is is a great center of flamenco music.

Paco Peña4:41

Oh yes, in fact Flamenko is um from Andalusia, no nowhere else. Do you come from a musical family?

Presenter4:47

Yeah.

Paco Peña4:48

Yes, I I would say so. I mean all my sisters, the seven of them, have always blasted away singing when they were, you know, cleaning the floor or cooking or something. But really, more seriously, my father was a singer, a flamenco singer, although he never performed professionally. He didn't like to be professional artist. But everybody who told me, I didn't hear him sing, everybody who heard him sing said he was very good. And apart from that, my only brother, who's older than me, he he is also a guitarist. He used to play before me. And he influenced

Speaker 15:08

That is

Presenter5:24

And he influenced you to play.

Paco Peña5:25

Yes, yes, I heard him, you know, and I l I liked it.

Presenter5:29

Now you talked of of of selling vegetables in the market and there was a very large family, nine children. What was the hardship when you were a child?

Paco Peña5:34

Yeah.

Paco Peña5:37

Yes, I'm afraid so. You know, my my my father didn't really help the family very much. He was uh perhaps too independent. He wanted to try all sorts of things all the time without succeeding, I'm afraid. As a result, my mother had to look after us for quite a long time and things went too easy with nine children. So

Speaker 15:47

Yeah.

Speaker 35:47

Hmm.

Presenter5:49

Yeah.

Paco Peña5:57

You know, we were poor.

Presenter5:59

You began to accompany flamenco groups when you were very young.

Paco Peña6:03

Yes, yes.

Presenter6:03

How old?

Paco Peña6:05

Well, about eleven, twelve?

Presenter6:07

Yes.

Paco Peña6:07

In my school there was a group of children playing, you know, different instruments, guitar, banduria, which is a melodic instrument. Anyway, accompanying those instruments, playing folk music, I developed a taste for the guitar. And uh, you know, people thought I was quite good. So people tried to get me to accompany them here and there. And obviously I was too small to to realize what even what I was doing. I knew I liked it, so I went to little places near Cordoba and in Cordoba to, you know, to make little fiestas for a bit of money, you know, very, very small time.

Speaker 16:45

You know.

Presenter6:46

Yes. You built up quite a a good local reputation as a youngster. Yes, that's right. Were you doing another job by day when you left school, or or could you keep yourself by playing the guitar?

Paco Peña6:50

Yes, that's right.

Paco Peña6:57

No, no, I was working the first office I went to was uh a lawyer's office and and after that a store's office, you know, doing administrative work, which I hated.

Paco Peña7:08

Um, yes, I had to earn some money. What I really enjoyed came after my my job, you know, which was the guitar.

Presenter7:14

The guitar. Eventually you were able to uh start to decide.

Paco Peña7:18

To decide, yes, that's right. I only by a very strong decision, you know, I decided to leave Cordoba.

Presenter7:26

Where did you go?

Paco Peña7:26

Where did you go? Uh I went to Madrid and Barcelona, wherever there was work. You know, I I played in the Costa Brava and, you know, nightclubs and wherever. You know, I it was a

Speaker 17:30

Yeah.

Presenter7:30

Work, you know.

Presenter7:35

You know

Presenter7:37

Tough decision. Always accompanying. You hadn't at that time started solo work on yourself.

Paco Peña7:40

I'll bet

Paco Peña7:41

That's right. That's right. Always with uh with groups.

Presenter7:44

Mm-hmm.

Paco Peña7:45

Eventually in fact I came to London with the company. Did you? Yes. We played in La Scala Theatre. The Scala Theatre. They pulled it down.

Presenter7:48

Do

Presenter7:51

The Scala Theatre they pulled it down

Paco Peña7:56

So I played there with this company and

Presenter7:58

Was the company a success?

Paco Peña8:00

No, no, it wasn't, I'm afraid, no, it was a big flop.

Presenter8:00

Uh

Presenter8:01

What's the

Paco Peña8:04

But nevertheless, it you know, I I realized that there was an appreciation for what I was trying to do, what I could do at the time in England, you know.

Speaker 18:11

Hmm.

Paco Peña8:13

that actually changed my life because eventually I decided to come to England to start my solo career, having realized how much the guitar was appreciated here.

Presenter8:24

Well, we've established you as an international artist. You played the Scala in London. So let's break here for your third record.

Paco Peña8:31

This one is is totally different style. The thing is, when I was playing in the Costa Brava, I met mm the person who is now my wife, or perhaps not my wife because we are not married, but uh she's the mother of my two daughters. Uh anyway, she had a different taste for me, uh for for music than mine, and uh she introduced me to the French songs which I now love, you know, like very much, and particularly Charles Navu, and particularly th this song which we used to listen to at that time.

Speaker 19:03

Yester encore, j'a venton, je quarèse le tent, et jouet de la vie.

Speaker 19:10

Come on, jeu de la mour, reje lives l'unui, saint contesture majour que fouille en le tent.

Speaker 19:17

Jeff faits de project, who sent restend lists, je fond l'est poires, qui sus sent envolais.

Speaker 19:25

'Cause I'm not sure if you're a man.

Speaker 19:28

Les Eucher channel siel, mais le queur misantaire.

Presenter9:33

Charles Arsnavaux singing Here encore, this sad song about the pains of being twenty years old.

Presenter9:40

So you made this decision that you were going to base yourself in London and you stopped playing in restaurants, you you were playing now concerts.

Paco Peña9:48

Yes. I tried anyway. I mean I one has to start slowly, you know, uh whatever was possible. I I did little concerts. Eventually I did a Wigmohole recital which was well received, which set me off really. You know, I had an agent and, you know, it's it was a bit of a struggle in the sense that things don't happen immediately, but obviously it paid off because now I have a terrific audience. I mean terrific in the sense that I should applaud my audience in London. They they're s they're absolutely beautiful.

Presenter10:19

Let's have another echo.

Paco Peña10:21

Well, the guitar has brought me in contact with all kinds of music, all kinds of artists, musicians, people that that I respect and admire. Um I would like to take with me, in fact, a masterly, a wonderful performance of some of the Bach lute music played by John Williams.

Presenter11:36

John Williams playing the fugue from Bach's Prelude Fugue and Allegro in E flat major, BWV nine nine eight. You and John Williams play many recitals together, don't you?

Paco Peña11:47

Yes, yes we have done.

Presenter11:49

He plays the classical music and you play flamenco.

Paco Peña11:52

Yes, of course the point of the concerts is to show in fact the versatility of of the guitar really and uh obviously that is uh shown very well in you know with John's style of classical music and my own of flamenco.

Presenter12:06

Flamenco, I I read means flamingo, and and it refers to the colourful gypsy costumes. Is that right?

Paco Peña12:14

I don't think so. Quite frankly, I I there is a lot of theories put forward.

Paco Peña12:19

I tend to consider

Paco Peña12:21

that what it means is what the actual word means in the Spanish dictionary, which is an outward going person, generous person, um you know, the person who will uh buy the first drink, you know, non-conformist, that kind of extrovert personality which is still uh you know

Speaker 112:35

In a normal

Paco Peña12:41

associated with the with the flamenco artist.

Presenter12:44

Most flavanko music is either surely in in a dance rhythm or or it's a lament, is that right?

Paco Peña12:50

Yes, it is. It's either a song which is not necessarily rhythmical or it it is a dance which is very rhythmical. I mean the the dancer expresses him or herself with the body in the same way that the singer obviously uses, you know, the means that he can and the guitarist obviously the instrument.

Paco Peña13:10

It is probably interesting to mention that

Paco Peña13:13

Flamenco, the essence of flamenco, is the singing, you know, it's a sort of cry.

Paco Peña13:19

of emotion.

Paco Peña13:20

Um

Paco Peña13:21

You know, it's it's a let out of sorrows and hard conditions. You know, those people were very poor and persecuted when Flamenko started to exist. And it's a sort of cry.

Presenter13:34

It was originally an unaccompanied music, the the guitar crept in later.

Paco Peña13:38

Yes, that is true. Although Flamenco itself, I mean, later is it's not that long ago, nothing is that long ago, because Flamenco itself is is only about two two hundred and fifty years old. As it is, anyway.

Paco Peña13:51

Record number five now.

Paco Peña13:52

In this one I'm going to put together a lot of tastes of mine, because you see I like orchestral music. There are so many composers I would like to take, but I think Brahms is probably the one that would satisfy me overall more than any other. I love the fiddle as well, and I love Isak Pellman, so I'll have the Brahms concert.

Presenter15:13

Part of the first movement of the Brahms violin concerto in D is Zach Pellman with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini.

Presenter15:23

Now, from your London base you go all over the world. I know you're off to Australia in a minute. You go to America. Yes. Far East. Must be a little complicated explaining flamenco to the Japanese.

Paco Peña15:27

Yeah.

Paco Peña15:29

Yeah.

Paco Peña15:37

Yes, I I must say I I I never tried actually. All I tried when I was playing there was to say a few words of, you know, a salute just to say hello, I'm here.

Presenter15:47

Because somebody tries to explain it in the programme, I suppose.

Paco Peña15:50

Yes, of course, yes. Mind you, they they're terribly interested and and well up in in flamenco music in Japan. They're very, very interested. It has got on so well.

Presenter15:52

Uh

Presenter16:02

Of course your programme is is never set. Flamenco is partly improvised, isn't it? You never play a piece twice exactly the same way.

Paco Peña16:07

Yeah.

Paco Peña16:09

No. Well, w having said no, I mean, I hope not. In other words, the the challenge is there to make it different every time, and certainly the desire is there. Um you know, it's it's such an emotional music that you want to be emotionally involved and reach heights and reach musical experiences that you haven't experienced before. All your background, all your life is full of music in your head and you just

Paco Peña16:38

Prepare yourself technically very well, so that you can draw from that experience in a fresh, in a new way.

Presenter16:45

You play quite often uh with great success in in Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club. There is indeed a connection with jazz in in in the the rhythmic side and in the improvisation side.

Paco Peña16:57

I think so. I think there is even more than that. I I think the the cultural conditions are very parallel, I find, you know, why music evolved, you know, in the United States at that time and why flamenco evolved in Andalusia. I think this uh lament uh thing, this cry is present in both.

Presenter17:17

You don't always travel alone. You do have a group which you call on sometimes. Yes. How many? What's the formation of it?

Paco Peña17:21

Yes.

Paco Peña17:24

It is mainly as an extension of my own beliefs in what I do with the guitar. You see, I remain very faithful to flamenco music as such, you know, purity. And uh

Paco Peña17:35

I present a group which does exactly the same, you know, show clearly and simply the contribution that the singing is to the general atmosphere of Lomenko and the contribution that the dancing has.

Paco Peña17:49

and the ensemble, you know, all the communication between one person and another, and certainly the the improvisation aspect of it.

Paco Peña17:57

Um the group is very small. I have two dancers normally, two singers and one other guitarist to support me.

Paco Peña18:05

And in some instances I like to have one extra dancer and perhaps one extra guitarist now and then. At the moment I'm taking to Australia one other dancer, which is very good, uh you know, fast price in Spain, uh in Cordoba of of you know, of dancing. Anyway.

Presenter18:18

Yeah.

Presenter18:22

And then you can do a complete theatre evening.

Paco Peña18:25

Yes, yes. Another record. I'm going to uh to to choose Chopin because uh I think Chopin is to perhaps to you if I may say so it's you know, you know it so well, um probably because you are spoiled. I mean you have so much good music around. The thing is that I have in a way taught myself to appreciate music and

Presenter18:27

Another ex

Speaker 118:41

Vin, you have

Paco Peña18:49

I came to Chopin and other composers, rather than having it from my childhood. I do appreciate and love Chopin, and particularly played by Dinu Lipati.

Presenter20:00

Dino Lopati playing Chopin's Waltz No. Seven in C Sharp minor, opus sixty four, number two.

Presenter20:07

How many guitars do you own, Paco?

Paco Peña20:09

Ooh, about ten.

Presenter20:11

Martin

Presenter20:12

All Spanish guitars, of course.

Paco Peña20:14

Yeah.

Presenter20:15

Is it best to have an old guitar, do they acquire a kind of?

Presenter20:19

warmth as they get old.

Paco Peña20:21

They do acquire warmth and the guitar is at its best after two or three years from new, it takes away the edge, you know, a little bit. But for my kind of music, I can't have a guitar for too long. I need it to be sharp and uh, you know, penetrating sound, which is when when it's new, if it gets too mellow, it is not in keeping with the character of the music.

Presenter20:47

Which country now do you look on as home? Do you go back to Spain to Cordoba often? Oh yes, very much.

Paco Peña20:53

Yeah.

Presenter20:53

Yes.

Paco Peña20:53

I I I would say I have two homes. I'm very lucky.

Presenter20:57

How much time do you get at either home in the course of a year you're travelling so much?

Paco Peña21:01

Um well, I would say in Cordoba I I spend no more than about four months.

Paco Peña21:07

and in London I spend quite a lot.

Paco Peña21:11

But coming back to London, as it were, from, you know, wherever I go.

Presenter21:16

London is your travelling centre.

Paco Peña21:16

Lambs on this

Paco Peña21:18

Yes, I mean, it's my base. I have my home here as well, if you like. But when I'm really resting, I am in Cordoba rather than London. So

Paco Peña21:26

From London I go everywhere and come back to London.

Presenter21:30

Some more music. What next?

Paco Peña21:31

I suppose if I was in an island

Paco Peña21:34

all of my own, uh without female

Paco Peña21:37

Companionship I think I take with me perhaps the second best thing. I take a beautiful voice, Cliolane, singing a beautiful sexy song, killing me softly with his song.

Speaker 121:49

My pain with his finger

Speaker 121:53

Sing in my life.

Presenter21:58

Killing me softly with his song, killing me softly.

Presenter22:05

Yeah.

Speaker 322:05

Where he

Speaker 122:06

New song Telling my whole life With his words killing me

Speaker 322:16

With his song

Presenter22:19

Cleo Lynn, and that was John Williams we heard again, too.

Paco Peña22:22

Yes, that's right. Uh

Presenter22:23

What's your last record?

Paco Peña22:25

My last record is associated with the period of the year which I really I love, perhaps most in the year.

Paco Peña22:32

And that is the Christmas time.

Paco Peña22:34

I insist on being in December in Cordoba with my large family and singing the songs of Christmas and enjoying that atmosphere. This is a Villian Sico.

Presenter22:50

I want W.

Presenter22:53

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Presenter22:56

Oh lay holy ola

Speaker 322:58

Uh

Presenter22:58

I'm sorry. Uh

Speaker 322:59

Uh Oh, I'm gonna say

Presenter23:00

Oh, I'm gonna say good

Presenter23:10

I Uh

Speaker 323:10

Uh

Speaker 123:11

Uh

Presenter23:17

A Christmas carol, Los Greges Magos, sung by the choir of Los Pedros in Cordoba.

Presenter23:25

Now if you could take only one disc out of the eight, which would it be?

Paco Peña23:29

Well, I think I'll take the bug.

Presenter23:31

and one luxury to take to the island.

Paco Peña23:34

No artist has impressed me more than Michelangelo through his work. Um you know, I shall never forget when I went into the Academia in in Florence with his beautiful statues on both sides and that stunning statue of David at the end, and of course his uh Sistine Chapel and so on. What I wish is Michelangelo is alive so that he could paint a beautiful painting of all my beloved family.

Presenter24:06

It's a lovely thought, Paco. I don't quite see how we're going to do that.

Paco Peña24:10

We can try. We we can try.

Presenter24:12

Now I I think you'd better just choose the your favourite modern painter and we'll commission him to paint your family as near as he can get to the style of Michelangelo.

Paco Peña24:21

There's

Paco Peña24:23

All right, well, I I'll get my friend Aurelio, who is a friend from Cordoba. Very good painter.

Presenter24:26

Very good painter. Good. And one book to take with you apart from the Bible and Shakespeare and we don't allow big encyclopedias.

Paco Peña24:33

Well, I thought I'd finally read Moby Dick. Why finally? Because I've had the the book for for so many years and uh you know, every time I start reading it it it's I believe it's very, very good novel, but I can't sort of get into it. So well, better I better not take that.

Presenter24:37

Why finally?

Presenter24:47

See

Presenter24:49

Alright, you don't think you're ever really going to get into it. Right, leave it.

Paco Peña24:51

Alright, leave it.

Paco Peña24:53

Well, in that case I would take uh some poetry, I think. I I take Federico Garcia Lorca, his works.

Presenter24:59

The poems, the collected poems of Locke.

Paco Peña25:00

Yes.

Presenter25:01

Yeah.

Presenter25:02

And thank you, Baco Pena, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Paco Peña25:06

Good. Thank you very much.

Presenter25:07

Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 325:18

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.