Raymond Mander & Joe Mitchenson

Raymond Mander0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive.

Raymond Mander0:05

For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1978 and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:31

We have two castways on our desert island. This

Speaker 30:33

But

Presenter0:34

Make

Speaker 30:34

Yeah.

Presenter0:34

They are

Speaker 30:34

Uh

Presenter0:35

Authors

Speaker 30:35

Yeah.

Presenter0:35

Yeah.

Speaker 30:35

Yeah.

Presenter0:35

The other To historians

Speaker 30:36

Yeah.

Presenter0:36

And they possess the biggest private theatre collection in the country, Raymond Mander and Joe Mitchenson. Now how did you two set about this job of choosing just eight records? Did you choose four each?

Presenter0:48

No, no. We um We felt at once that i we could go on choosing records to instead of eight, probably a hundred and eight. And we decided we'd better get together on this and we don't want to go to different parts of the island, you know. Different choice is equally the same. We found when we were working records out that we had something in common with each of them. So it's really a joint, a really joint choice. Each record means something to each of us.

Raymond Mander1:10

Mm-hmm.

Presenter1:16

Raymond, does collecting theatre records come into the scope of your collection? Oh, yes, yes, our sound archives. We've got lots of early records, both opera, ballet, music hall, uh, musical comedy. Oh, yes, it's part it's all part of theatre. Everything at uh

Raymond Mander1:16

Yeah.

Presenter1:31

It keeps the theatre alive, or keeps the past alive.

Presenter1:35

Now, although all the discs are your joint choices, I think it's tidier if you choose them alternately. Raymond, you're first in the billing of Raymond Mantra and Joe Richardson. You had better go first. Well, we've chosen the Ride of the Valkyrie. I mean, it's um just a lovely, stirring, rousing thing. It'd it'd wake us up if we were sleepy. I was introduced to Wagner at at rather an early age, at about the age of eight. My mother and I had a flat in Upper Norwood, and we had some tenants above us, and at night usually most nights, there'd be terrible quarrels would break out.

Presenter2:08

and my mother, who adored grammophone records,

Presenter2:12

She would get up at seven in the morning,

Presenter2:14

after a rather exhausting night and prayed. She had a gramophone recital, and it always started with a ride the Ralkerists. Before breakfast. Before breakfast. But I got very, very fond of Wagner. That was how I was introduced to Wagner.

Presenter3:28

The Ride of the Valkyries from The Valkyrie, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by George Schulte. Now, some biographical details of you both in turn. Raymond, where do you come from? Oh, I'm a Londoner. I've always been told I've got a cockney accent. I can't hear it myself, but I'm I do a little bit of a cockney draw, shall I say, at times. Did you go to the theatre a lot as a child? Oh, yes, yes. I think I went first went to the theatre when I was about three. Of course, mother loved the theatre. Father didn't, but mother did. Which came first, the desire to act or the collecting urge?

Presenter4:00

Oh, I think

Presenter4:01

I think, funnily enough, the collecting did. It was sort of amassing things, uh rummaging in junctions. Yes, yes, all sorts of things, not not necessarily only theatre. I think it was a born sort of Autolycus.

Presenter4:14

A collector of snapper-up of unconsidered trifles.

Speaker 24:15

Yeah.

Presenter4:20

And you worked with amateur groups? Oh, yes. While I was at school I decided I wanted to to act and um I did amateur concert parties and well, that's where we first met, wasn't it? It was indeed a group.

Speaker 34:30

Yeah.

Presenter4:33

When and how did you start in the theatre proper as a professional? Well, I answered an advert in the stage and uh said would I go up to the old interval club in Dean Street and there I met

Raymond Mander4:36

Yeah.

Presenter4:46

The manager that was opening a rep in Bedford. I told him I'd done a lot of things, he didn't believe me, and off I went.

Presenter4:54

And after that it was Shakespeare and Telegram. Musicals. Management as well. Yes, yes. Well, that was later we went into management at a little theater in Nottinghill Gate where with Joe and I during the war and where we ran the Grand Croydon.

Speaker 24:56

Everything.

Speaker 24:59

Use

Speaker 25:00

Uh

Raymond Mander5:05

But

Presenter5:09

Well, that's fine. Let's have the second record, and Joe, it's your turn to choose one. Well, I would like to choose uh a scene from the Apple card, you know, the interlude between uh Margaret Leighton and Noel Card when they played it. Noel was a a tremendous friend to us, and I think I would certainly have to have his voice with us. And Shaw, of course, is our God.

Presenter5:30

Jemima has her limitations, as you have observed, and I have mine.

Presenter5:35

Now, if our limitations exactly corresponded, I should never want to talk to anyone else, and neither would she.

Presenter5:41

But as that never happens, we are like all other married couples. That is, there are subjects which can never be discussed between us because they are sore subjects.

Presenter5:49

There are people we avoid mentioning to one another because one of us likes them and the other doesn't.

Speaker 35:53

Yeah.

Presenter5:54

Not only individuals, but Whole sorts of people, for instance, your sort.

Presenter5:59

My wife doesn't like your soul.

Presenter6:03

Noel Card and Margaret Leighton in a scene from Bernard Shaw's The Apple Card.

Presenter6:08

Now, Joe, some information about you. Are you a Londoner, too? Well, I'm a Londoner by chance, really.

Presenter6:14

My family were all Northumberland. But my mother married rather late in life, and when she married she decided she wanted to live in London. So we came to Old Southcote, where I was born, and eventually to Sydney, where I still am.

Presenter6:29

I started going to the theatre, of course my mother was married on the theatre, and I started going to the theatre very early, and the first thing I saw I think it was the age of four.

Presenter6:37

I went to a production of Peter Pan, and I fell under the magic spell of JM Barry.

Presenter6:43

But I thought there was one bit of very bad miscasting in that play. I was terribly disappointed that Peter Pam was played by a lady.

Presenter6:52

And I thought to myself, you know, I think I could do this much better in a few years' time. And I think that's what really made me feel. I wanted to get into the theatre. But nobody's ever asked you to play Peter Pan. Nobody's ever. No boy's ever played Peter Pan, yet, funnily enough. What was your first job?

Speaker 27:02

Play Peter Penn.

Raymond Mander7:05

Yeah.

Speaker 27:05

Thank you.

Presenter7:08

I was very lucky. I went straight into the West End under the uh Liam and Lyme management, who was marvellous to me. He gave me three jobs. I started in Liable, I walked on and I understudied, and I also started at the same time in that same show Alec Guinness started. And when did you start collecting? Very early? Oh, I started collecting because there was always a certain amount of theatre stuff in the house. Mother kept her programmes, the theatrical postcards, and so I was almost collecting.

Raymond Mander7:14

Uh

Presenter7:38

You know, in my very young days. Where did you and Raymond first meet up? That was very strange because I suddenly got a card to the door asking me if I could, at the last minute, dash down and do a production of The Merry Wives of Windsor to play Fenton. Someone had fallen out or something, and I had about a long weekend in which to learn the part. I got to the rehearsal rooms, and there I met Raymond Mandon. He was also in the castle. One performance. The Doctor's settlement. Doctor and Settlement. Oh, all of two guineas each for those. If that. If that. Yes. A very good date. That was 1939, too, before the spring before the war. Then there was the point where your collection had got big enough and important enough.

Raymond Mander8:03

One performance on the document settlement.

Raymond Mander8:07

Yeah.

Raymond Mander8:09

Yeah.

Raymond Mander8:12

Yeah.

Raymond Mander8:14

That was a nice

Raymond Mander8:15

And they bring the

Presenter8:21

For you both to give up acting and devote yourself to the collection. Well, that was be really because the war came in between and uh Joe was called. I went in the army for a while and was invalided out in about nineteen forty-three and of course it was a a jolly good time to come out really because there was a shortage of uh young actors then and so one went on tour and

Raymond Mander8:31

Right.

Presenter8:43

Did all sorts of things. One got plenty of jobs at that moment. The army wouldn't have me, so I just stayed at home and kept the pot boiling and uh did a lot of broadcasts and we um wrote scripts, did grammophone record programmes and then when Joe was invalided out, I was playing in Petrified Forest at the Globe at the time. I left the show and we went off on tour together. We went out on Ensir.

Raymond Mander8:45

And the up.

Speaker 38:46

Uh

Raymond Mander8:46

Uh

Presenter9:08

We had a wonderful trip with Ansa because we were the first company out just after the war with Pygmalion, and it was rather good fun because.

Raymond Mander9:08

Me has a band

Presenter9:15

We did do our dress rehearsal at Drury Lane. And of course we were in Pygmalion before the real play in the Bondrunner Lane. And you played in Berlin very, very early on in the end of the day. Yes, the first Christmas after Born was most exciting. We got to your third record. Raymond, it's your turn to choose. Musically.

Raymond Mander9:20

Uh

Raymond Mander9:22

We might then leave the plan.

Raymond Mander9:33

Yeah.

Presenter9:41

I love opera, we both love opera, but we always longed for Offenbach to come back. And it was marvellous when the Saddlers Wells began doing their marvellous Offenbach productions. And Junebroch. And born to sing Offenbach. And then we became a great friend of hers. So we thought we'd have her with Elik Schilling in the fly duet from Office in the Underworld. All that zzz zzz zzzzzz zzz.

Raymond Mander9:59

Good hand every

Raymond Mander10:10

Jesus, Lizzie, Jesus, Lizzie, Jesus, Liz, Jesus, Liz, Jesus, Liz, Perfect, Perfect, Perfect, Perfect.

Speaker 310:16

Easy

Speaker 210:45

Peace and continue, oh my god, you're my

Raymond Mander10:50

Yeah.

Speaker 210:50

Uh

Raymond Mander10:50

What's in the world now?

Presenter11:12

Joan Brownhill and Eric Schilling in Offenbach's Orpheus in the Underworld. Now, this collection, which thirty years ago was already large enough for you to give up your acting careers to look after, an awful lot of space was necessary.

Presenter11:25

Well, Joe, uh

Presenter11:28

We had this large house in Sydney with his mother, and I left home under war conditions, and I brought everything I'd collected over, and it merged with everything that Joe had got, and that was the roots of the collection. But it's really bursting at the seams now. It consists, this collection, now what, of books, many books, anything to do with the theatre. Programmes and prints, costumes, china figures, manuscripts, manuscripts, yes. Oh, and you're files, files on files. Files on every actor. There's files on every actor and actress. And there are files on every London theatre, you know, from the earliest days to what's going to happen today. They are deep files, yes. Very deep. They're bursting at the seams with the shelves never long enough. Yes, and pottery, of course. Oh, China, theatres, yes, theatre. We are the only great collection of the pictures. I think we've got in numbers. I mean, we must be getting on for a thousand pieces of China, I suppose. As many, I wouldn't have thought there were as many. No, yes, there are. It's extraordinary. Actors and sometimes in sets, and we're of course occasionally missing on the full set. We keep hoping for.

Raymond Mander11:42

Really?

Raymond Mander11:49

Play programs and programs.

Raymond Mander11:54

Manuscript

Raymond Mander11:57

Oh, and you're a smile.

Raymond Mander11:59

Virtually every act.

Raymond Mander12:01

So there's files on every

Raymond Mander12:06

To hear must

Raymond Mander12:08

They are good files, yes.

Raymond Mander12:11

Uh

Speaker 312:11

True.

Raymond Mander12:11

They all

Speaker 312:14

No, you're just the asset.

Raymond Mander12:15

Uh

Speaker 312:15

Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Mander12:16

Done.

Speaker 312:16

Yeah.

Raymond Mander12:17

I think it got

Raymond Mander12:22

Many I wouldn't have thought there were as many.

Presenter12:32

Well, we're still looking to m complete our set of those little china figures of the big opera and of Hassan.

Speaker 212:42

So they're probably.

Presenter12:45

Uh

Speaker 212:45

Ooh.

Presenter12:45

They're unnamed, so people may have them without knowing what they are.

Presenter12:52

Well, that had always been at the back of our minds that we collected with the idea of a national collection of theatre. We had the idea originally it should be in the national theatre, but that didn't work out. And we decided a few years ago, under the guidance of a very, very good solicitor,

Presenter13:10

To turn it into a trust. So we have trustees now. About a year ago, nearly a year ago, we gave the collection over to our trustees. And who are, among others, Judy Dench, Michael Williams, and Danny LaRue. Yes. All good friends. And legal people. They now own the trust. We are officially employed by the trust. And the trust are empowered to hand it over, which they are going to do. We have the promise from Lewishamborough Council of a marvellous Georgian mansion, Beckenham Park Place. We'll be able to have concerts there and recitals and all sorts of stuff. And we found you hand over, you will have found so much more stuff that that place will be bursting over. I hope not, Roy. I think it'll be all right. It's got a tremendous lot of space. And we can live over the shop, too. It's a lovely flat. Good.

Raymond Mander13:18

User

Raymond Mander13:44

And we found

Raymond Mander13:50

I don't I hope not.

Raymond Mander13:56

I'll be

Raymond Mander13:57

Two is a lovely flat.

Presenter14:00

Joe, another record.

Presenter14:01

Well, I think um

Presenter14:04

Swan Lake. That would remind us of all our visits to Bally right from seeing Pavlova, wouldn't it? Yes, and Kassavana, like I saw at the Coliseum as a boy.

Raymond Mander14:11

The guy saw the colours.

Presenter15:10

The closing passage of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, Richard Bonning conducting the National Philharmonic Orchestra. Now,

Presenter15:17

Having formed this

Presenter15:18

Fine collection. Obviously, it had to be put to practical use. Now, in what way is it used? Oh, it's used in many ways, Roy. I mean, it's used a tremendous lot for research, of course, from broadcasting, from television. And it's used a lot for books, of course. We help authors a great deal. They come down, they've got an idea of writing a book, say, on Edmund Keene or something, and they use us as a research centre. And you provide the illustrations. And we provide the illustrations. How many books have you had a hand in now? On illustrating other people's books, nearly 600, I think. That's a lot of books, isn't it? Strange work on films. We did all the background work for the Gertrude Lawrence film Star. And producers come down and look at photographs of old productions before. And examine scripts and prompt scripts. You've got a lot of prompt scripts. A lot of prompt scripts and things.

Raymond Mander15:31

And it used a lot.

Raymond Mander15:42

We provide illustrations.

Raymond Mander15:50

Oh.

Raymond Mander16:00

Yeah.

Raymond Mander16:03

A lot of problems.

Presenter16:06

Well, record number five. Raymond, it's your turn to introduce a disc. Ah, well, you heard us say just now that Judy Dench was one of our trustees. And it's not only because of that. We've chosen cabaret. I think it sums up a lot of things we think about life being a cabaret. It was a wonderful first night, too. You know, we we took charge of uh Judy's mother, Olive.

Raymond Mander16:20

The five finger cables.

Presenter16:28

And it was very funny because we sat there w with her between us and we each held her hand and when Judy had done her first number Don't tell mother and we were still holding hands, we didn't even applaud. We were all so nervous. But it was the most exciting and wonderful night in the theatre.

Raymond Mander16:38

Uh

Speaker 216:38

Uh

Raymond Mander16:38

But still

Speaker 216:38

Yeah.

Raymond Mander16:38

Holding hands.

Speaker 216:40

Yeah.

Speaker 216:45

Start by Cadmi from cradle to tomb.

Speaker 216:56

Isn't that long a stay? Life is a cabar rail jump. Oh

Presenter17:19

Judy Dench in the London production of Cabaret. Now we've talked about the six hundred books you've helped to illustrate. Let's talk about your own books, of which I see there have been just about a score.

Presenter17:30

You've done a series of Theatrical Companions, which are tremendously useful reference books. Yes, that was great fun. We did uh Shaw, Maugham, and Card, and before that we did our first book, I think, was um Hamlet Through the Ages, wasn't it?

Speaker 217:42

Through the ages, possibly.

Presenter17:43

We've always written about the things we like or to fill what we've always felt are gaps. Having collected books, we know the gaps on the shelves. The drives that need it. And the things that we've never written about anything that we haven't liked, or had a sympathy with, or wanted to write about, have we?

Speaker 217:43

Which it goes.

Raymond Mander17:52

And the drives that need it and the things that

Presenter18:05

And you've done some splendid picture histories as well, using all the British Theatre history, which was covered right up to and finished with the mousetrap. Pantomime, Review, Musical Comedy. And some studies of decades in the London Theatre. Yes, yes, we did our lost theatres and we do our Theatres of London, which we keep up to date. We're going into a third edition of that. That seems to get serialised in the programmes. Yes. You see, we are part of the living theatre. We're not academics. We're actors that have.

Raymond Mander18:08

Yes, we did the previous.

Raymond Mander18:14

Yeah.

Speaker 318:21

Yeah.

Raymond Mander18:21

Yes.

Speaker 318:28

Yeah.

Raymond Mander18:28

Yeah, that's a

Presenter18:36

You know, we've got an interest. We try then to please students of the theatre and theatre-goers. On Lost Theatres of London, you did some fascinating detective work. That must have been very enjoyable. It was fun. We just sweated over large volumes of the opera. Yes, I know we did. But I think our biggest job, and the one that took the longest, was doing the Somerset Morn theatrical paintings. More detective work. That was really detective work. It really got on your mind that. And you'd wake up in the middle of the night and suddenly rush downstairs and.

Raymond Mander18:51

Volumes of the Ilara

Raymond Mander18:59

That was really detective

Presenter19:07

And find the answer to something. Well, some of those pictures were wrongly attributed. Yes, they were wrongly attributed, and we had to sort of get them sorted out. They're all going to be shown again next year at the National Theatre. And we're hoping to do another book, revise the book, and organise it and add all the watercolours in.

Raymond Mander19:16

Yeah.

Raymond Mander19:18

No but

Presenter19:23

Record number six, and Joe, would you like to introduce it? I would like to hear an actress.

Presenter19:30

And not only an actress, but a pianist as well, Yvonne Arnaud. And I remember seeing her first in Tons of Money as a child, and that wonderful laugh, that wonderful chuckle, it was irresistible. You had to always laugh with her. And that wonderful accent that got more and more French. We got more and more French the older she got. And we simply, I simply adored her. And luckily, one met her. Yeah. And it's two eyes of one, isn't it? It is. Because we're going to get her talking, and we're going to have a bit of bark as well.

Raymond Mander19:43

That

Raymond Mander19:44

And one the friends

Raymond Mander19:50

Is

Raymond Mander19:52

And it's two for the price of one, isn't it?

Speaker 220:00

Well

Speaker 220:01

I think lots of people make a mistake in thinking that

Speaker 220:05

John Sebastian Bach was a very tiresome man. He was not a bit he was a great musician, but he was essentially a gay, honest man. He had a large family and they all adored to make music. And his music, for me, has always a sort of uh very square, satisfying

Speaker 220:28

Uh delicious.

Speaker 220:31

Mood for music.

Presenter20:33

Ivan Arnaud introducing and playing some Bach.

Presenter20:37

Which of you is the practical one? Who's going to build a hut? Oh, I'd have to do that. Joe can't hit a hammer with a nail. Well, I I would enjoy the cooking, Roy. Definitely I'd do some wonderful things with my bit of vegetarian background. Have either of you done any fishing? Raymond, you said you didn't want to be a vegetarian.

Raymond Mander20:46

I do some wonderful things with this.

Raymond Mander20:50

Yeah.

Presenter20:53

No, no, I don't I don't fish. I've never shot anything. But I think well, I think I'd try and catch a bird or two or something like that. I don't think I'd want to

Presenter21:05

Well they're good swimmers.

Raymond Mander21:06

Yeah.

Presenter21:08

Neither swim, swim. Ah, now we've got an idea.

Raymond Mander21:08

Neither swim.

Raymond Mander21:12

Yeah.

Raymond Mander21:14

Yeah.

Speaker 221:14

Dear

Presenter21:15

On an island with all those gulls, there must be some more. There is, mustn't there?

Raymond Mander21:18

Uh

Speaker 221:18

Yeah.

Presenter21:20

So don't you think we could get all the boys together, you know, um and lash them together, harness the gulls and try and float away and see if the gulls we could sort of do this to whip the whip the gulls up and uh they would drive us away on the boys. I don't see where you're getting these boys from, Mr. No, there must be some gulls and boys, must be the gully or the other. Shall we just move on and try and get out of this sticky mess? Whose record is it? Um Raymond. It's me, isn't it? Yes.

Raymond Mander21:38

So, yeah.

Raymond Mander21:41

One and the other.

Presenter21:54

Hamlet's our favourite play. How many productions have you seen? We've lost count nearly five. Nearly thirty, I think, different Hamlets. We've seen it in Italian, we've seen it in German, the Russian films. It is our favourite play. It still gets that tingle down your spine, which is I, Hamlet, the Dane. If you don't tingle, then it's a bad Hamlet. And of course, our favourite Hamlet is naturally John Gilgood. The voice of our generation, as well. It is, of course.

Speaker 321:58

Oh, bouncy.

Raymond Mander21:58

Yeah.

Speaker 321:59

Neil is there.

Speaker 322:03

Is it

Speaker 322:04

Jam, yes?

Raymond Mander22:14

And of course

Speaker 322:20

Yeah.

Speaker 322:21

But let your own discretion be your tutor suit the action to the word, the word to the action, with this special observance, that you o'erstep not the modesty of nature for anything so overdone is from the purpose of playing.

Raymond Mander22:31

Yeah.

Speaker 322:35

whose end, both of the first and now, was and is

Speaker 322:39

to hold, as'twere the mirror up to nature.

Speaker 322:44

To show Virtue her own feature, scorn Her own image, and the very age and body of the time his form and pressure.

Presenter22:52

John Gilgood as Hamlet. And now we come to your last record, Joe. I think I'm going to be a bit of a cheat here,'cause I'm going to cry and almost get a whole show in in in one, you know. I think the overture to the Arcadians,'cause you get all those lovely numbers, and I'd almost be getting the entire show.

Presenter24:10

The Overture to the Arcadians, Gilbert Vinter and his Orchestra. Now, one joint disc, if you would only take one out of the eight. Oh, ride the Valkyrie on it. Ride the Valkyries, definitely. And a luxury each, Joe.

Speaker 324:18

Oh, yeah.

Presenter24:24

My luxury, oh, I I'm an awful one for sunbathing. So I think I'd want something I could sunbathe on, you know, a nice couch, a nice, very comfortable couch. I don't like the hard ground. Right, yes. And some oil I'd have coconut oil, wouldn't I? Yes, I'd be all right with that luxury.

Raymond Mander24:34

I'm

Raymond Mander24:38

Yeah.

Presenter24:44

Ah now you know the must on that island all these people that have been on it in the last thirty odd years must have left something behind an aura therefore surely there could be some invention that you could turn on.

Presenter24:58

And all everything those people have wanted and their personalities.

Presenter25:04

could be brought either to by sound or one could hear them.

Presenter25:10

Like an extrasensory perception, isn't it? Isn't it? An ultra-sensitive radio receiver that would bring you voices from the past. Yes, that's roughly. You would never be alone, then.

Raymond Mander25:14

Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Mander25:15

Yes, that's roughly.

Presenter25:18

And one book each, apart from that select little list, the Bible and Shakespeare are already on the island, and we don't allow big encyclopedias. Well, I want a complete run of Who's Who in the Theatre. And I think I'd like to take my albums of photographs of all my friends, like Danny Leroux and everybody, and not only stage people, but you know, all your off-stage buddies and chums as well, so that you could look at them from time to time. Right. And thank you, Raymond Mander and Joe Mitchenson, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you, Roy, for asking us to join all your distinguished castaways. And it should entitle us, I think, all now to put D-I-D after our names.

Presenter25:59

Goodbye, everyone.

Raymond Mander26:09

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.