Wayne Sleep

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen seventy seven, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:32

This week, our castaway is the dancer and entertainer, Wayne Sleep. Wayne Sleep is a very good stage name, is it your real one?

Wayne Sleep0:39

Yes, it is. Sleep by name, sleep by nature, that's what they used to call me.

Presenter0:44

Oh yes, all that stuff about wake up at the back of the class, you must have had to endure all that.

Presenter0:51

How long did it take you to choose your aid record?

Wayne Sleep0:54

Well, I set myself a standard that I wouldn't choose anything that wasn't in my own record collection. But then I realized there were two hundred records in my own collection, so it was pretty difficult. What's the first one? The first one is uh Beethoven's Choral Fantasia.

Presenter1:09

Why have you chosen it?

Wayne Sleep1:11

I've chosen it for no other reason than I love the music and it reminds me of days going about a hundred miles an hour through little country lanes in Italy, don't tell the Italian police and letting the m music blare out and uh just watching the sky and the scenery go whizzing by.

Presenter1:22

It does seem like a majority.

Wayne Sleep1:31

The king stopped.

Speaker 12:23

Uh

Presenter2:26

An extract from Beethoven's Choral Fantasia, a recording conducted by Bernard Heitink with Alfred Brendel as the soloist.

Presenter2:34

What part of the country do you come from when? Plymouth.

Presenter2:37

Do you come from a family with a particular interest in the art?

Wayne Sleep2:39

But

Wayne Sleep2:40

Well, my mum always did because she could have been a great singer and uh she'd never had any training as such and so she was too scared when the BBC offered her a contract to sing on radio uh to follow it through because of her lack of training. And I suppose in a way that's why she helped me.

Presenter2:53

Because of a

Wayne Sleep2:57

When I was young and wanted to go on the stage.

Presenter2:59

Do get

Wayne Sleep2:59

And

Presenter3:00

Bob. Had you seen a lot of theatre as a child?

Wayne Sleep3:02

No, I hadn't seen any at all. I was just drawn to it by the music and by uh colour. I adored colours of any kind. What inspired you to dance?

Wayne Sleep3:12

Well, it was the only place you could go that was slightly theatrically orientated, your local dance class, and so they put me there when I was five, just to get it out of my system, and I'm afraid it remained with me.

Presenter3:24

Yes. You began to dance at local shows and that sort of thing.

Wayne Sleep3:27

Yeah, we did Christmas concerts and things like that.

Presenter3:30

Hmm.

Wayne Sleep3:31

Um when we moved to Hartlepool when I was eight in County Durham, I went in for the Teesside tournaments and the Middlesbrough tournaments and was a precocious little child winning cups and medals. What sort of dancing? Tap dancing and uh singing musical comedy stuff. And uh then when I you see I tap dance with my feet turned out, which is a natural stance for a ballet dancer, unfortunately, a bit like Charlie Chaplin. And uh so the adjudicator said that she wanted me to start learning ballet, to which my parents frown considerably. But uh

Presenter3:42

What sort of dance?

Wayne Sleep4:07

They put me, you know, thinking that I'd give up after the second class'cause I was the only boy in a class full of girls. But of course that was much more enticing and um I remained with it ever since because it turned into a science rather than just a way to sort of get rid of your frustrations about not being on the stage.

Speaker 14:17

Yeah.

Presenter4:17

Secret.

Speaker 14:17

Mm-hmm.

Presenter4:24

There's not

Presenter4:25

You got a a a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Dancing.

Wayne Sleep4:29

Yes, I did. When I was uh ten I went up for two free classes a week to Newcastle and did that and then on to the Royal Ballet School when I was twelve.

Presenter4:39

Mm-hmm. Well, at that very important juncture in your career, we'll break your next record. What's that?

Wayne Sleep4:44

Okay. The Beatles singing All You Need Is Love. And the Beatles because Because I grew up with them really, I suppose. And I remember having long hair when we weren't meant to have long hair and that it was very anti-establishment. And it was the sixties, you know, of Hate Ashbury and the Hippies and uh I was in San Francisco at the time and I had a marvellous time then and uh it's an era that's ended and it was really all about love and I suppose it's very sentimental but uh it's uh the period in which I grew up.

Speaker 15:19

No one you can save, but don't you save

Speaker 15:23

Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time

Wayne Sleep5:26

I

Speaker 15:27

Uh

Wayne Sleep5:27

Easy.

Wayne Sleep5:32

Uh

Speaker 15:32

All you need is love.

Speaker 15:37

All you need is love.

Speaker 15:42

All you need is love.

Speaker 15:44

Yeah.

Presenter5:49

All you need is love the Beatles. So, to the Royal Bally School in Richmond Park. Were you happy there?

Wayne Sleep5:56

Uh yes, I think so, because I was doing what I wanted to do, which was dance. How was your

Presenter6:01

How was your day split up?

Wayne Sleep6:02

We'd start at uh nine in the morning with a ballet class until about ten thirty and then we'd break and then we'd just do our academic lessons, you know, history, French, geography and all that sort of stuff, which I really wasn't interested at all in. Um I do regret not having had a much wider education in the theatre as such, because we didn't really learn much about the theatre other than the odd dress rehearsal at Covent Garden, we didn't see much either.

Presenter6:29

How old were you when you were invited to join the Royal Ballet Company? I was seventeen. It must have been a big thrill to walk through the stage door of the Royal Opera House for the first time as a member.

Wayne Sleep6:38

Well, it was because, um, you know, you'd worked since you were, say, ten years old to get that far.

Presenter6:46

And work very hard too.

Wayne Sleep6:47

Yes. Well, I had to because I'm only five foot three and um I couldn't go straight into the Corder Ballet because I didn't really fit, so I had to be of a soloist standard before they would accept me. And, you know, it was very touch and go whether I would get in the company at all.

Presenter6:59

Mm-hmm.

Presenter7:04

What was your first appearance with them?

Wayne Sleep7:06

Well, my first really good role with them when I was still in the Corps de Ballet, apart from a dancing role, was a mime role in which I partnered Sir Frederick Ashton. I was the ugly suitor in Cinderella. Robert Heltman had the tall, handsome one, and I was the small, ugly one, which he palmed off onto Sir Frederick Ashton.

Presenter7:27

That must have been grateful.

Wayne Sleep7:28

Oh it was, it was marvellous, but it was very challenging because there I was on stage with Sir Robert Heltman and Sir Frederick Ashton. And I thought, goodness, you know, what do I do, you know, to sort of keep up to their caliber? And I looked around and I realised that the best thing was to do nothing. And so I made a point of doing nothing and that I think it worked quite well. That was the right thing to do. Yes, I think so.

Presenter7:50

That was the right thing to do.

Wayne Sleep7:54

My third record is Handel's Messiah with the King's College choir from Cambridge, and it's the all-male version with James Bowman as the alto.

Speaker 18:07

Oh love as test good tidings to our home

Wayne Sleep8:10

Tidings to some

Speaker 18:15

Uh

Presenter8:16

Noise shine for

Speaker 18:18

Uh

Presenter8:19

My light is gone.

Speaker 18:22

All right.

Speaker 18:27

Arise!

Speaker 18:30

Rise and shine the violent discount.

Wayne Sleep9:02

Isn't really

Presenter9:08

O thou that tellest good tidings from Handel's Messiah, James Bowman, with the choir of King's College, Cambridge Why did you choose that?

Wayne Sleep9:16

Well, I love the music and um James Bowman I think is the most marvellous singer and I have actually worked with him before. I did um Benjamin Britton's Midsummer Night's Dream at the Opera House and he was my Oberon and I played Puck in the production.

Presenter9:33

Is that a singing part?

Wayne Sleep9:34

No, it's a speaking part, but I do have to imitate the singers at one point.

Presenter9:36

But I

Presenter9:40

Right, going back to the beginning of your career, as you said, there are limitations to the part you can dance. You can't do Romey or the Prince in in Swan Lake or whatever, but um you began to show exceptional talent in in virtuoso dancing and and character roles.

Speaker 19:49

Tampa button.

Presenter9:56

Which were your first successes?

Wayne Sleep9:59

My first success as a as a demi character virtuoso dancer was in Les Patinneur, which I did for my graduation performance. Unfortunately, I fell over in the middle of it. Bad thing to do. No, it was a bad thing to do, but I think that must have put the audience on my side because they were marvelous to me afterwards. And so that established me into the company and got me a place in the company. And then I've done Puck in the Dream with the ballet and The Jester in Cinderella.

Speaker 210:11

Uh

Presenter10:12

Bad thing to do.

Wayne Sleep10:31

And roles like that.

Presenter10:33

Several roles have been created for you.

Wayne Sleep10:35

Yeah. Um Sir Fred created uh a part in Collier in the Month in the Country for me quite recently. He also gave me a part as Saturday's Child in Jazz Calendar. Saturday's Child Works Hard for His Living and we did a ballet class on stage for Saturday's Child.

Presenter10:35

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep10:53

He had created the part of George Robinson Sinclair in Enigma Variations for me. Um oh and we did the film of The Tales of Beatrix Potter, in which I played one of the two bad mice and Squirrel Nutkin.

Presenter11:06

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep11:06

Uh

Presenter11:06

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep11:06

Which was fun.

Presenter11:08

Is it sometimes confusing working for different choreographers with different ideas and different ways of working?

Wayne Sleep11:14

No, it's not confusing, it's just a different attitude of mind. With Sir Frederick, you walk into the studio and he'll have an idea of what he wants and then make you do some steps and leave you alone with it for a while. He'll just watch you because he likes to choose steps that come out of you. You know, he likes you to be the creator of the character, or help be the creator of the character, because he wants the best he can get from you. Whereas another choreographer will come along with it all worked out, completely set, and you just have to really copy them or mimic them as just a body, as a dancer. Less interesting. Less interesting for me because I like to find a role for myself and, you know, unless I believe in it, I don't think I'm giving a genuine performance in it. And if they just want a carbon copy, they can go somewhere else. Uh

Presenter12:12

Yeah.

Presenter12:13

You were elevated to the title of principal dancer, and you were given a crack at Petrushka. That's a wonderful

Wayne Sleep12:19

Yeah, it was fantastic. It was one of the hardest parts I've done because although there's everything in the choreography, if you're not careful, there's nothing there at all. By that I mean the steps are there, but unless you interpret them in the right manner, the whole thing can go unnoticed, because there's no virtuoso dancing it. There are no big jumps or big leaps. It all has to come from within yourself and and how you portray the role is the most important thing. So it was one of the biggest challenges I've ever had, but because it was so challenging, it was very rewarding when one had done it.

Presenter12:54

What other perts have you got your eye on?

Wayne Sleep12:56

Well, I think uh Mercutio and Remy and Juliet, which they say uh they will never let me play, so I'd like to do the play of that. I'd like to start acting more and uh do all the parts that I'm not allowed to do in the ballet as an actor.

Presenter13:08

You have done quite a lot of acting. Of course, we'll talk about that presently. Let's have another acting.

Wayne Sleep13:08

You heard dungeon

Wayne Sleep13:11

Let's have another record.

Presenter13:19

Why this value in particular?

Wayne Sleep13:21

I love Stravinsky's music and uh there's no real reason for it except that it's my favourite Stravinsky piece.

Presenter14:28

An excerpt from Stravinsky's Firebird Ballet, with Stravinsky himself conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter14:35

You've travelled a lot with the company, haven't you?

Wayne Sleep14:37

Yeah, pretty far and wide. I've been to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Germany, Japan, Korea, South America. Been to New York about six times. We've hit the west coast a couple of times, did two big tours of America in fact. I love that part of it. I think that's what keeps me with the Royal Bally, sort of free airfares.

Presenter15:03

Now you're one of the very few dancers to be in the Guinness Book of Records. Oh yes. Well you knew we had to bring this. Come on, tell me about it.

Wayne Sleep15:07

Well, you know we

Wayne Sleep15:10

Go on, tell me about it. They threw in a bit of money, so I said, Oh well, it'll get me a couple of free meals next week, you know, in a couple of good restaurants. So I went along and I went to demonstrate it, and they said, Can you do an entrech d's? which Nijinski did and set this record with.

Presenter15:44

It's

Presenter15:46

Yes it

Wayne Sleep15:46

That's ten, yes. Well, it's really five, but each foot counts as one, so it's five double.

Presenter15:46

Um that's ten, yes.

Presenter15:52

Five double cross

Wayne Sleep15:53

Yes, five double crosses. Very complicated, isn't it? And um so I hadn't really thought about it and I jumped up in the air and did it and there was great uh

Presenter15:53

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep16:03

claim and exclamations all over the place and the photographers were rushed in and they said I'd equalled the world record, could I beat it? and I didn't really know what they were going on about. I thought it was very funny. And uh so I did the entre chaudus afterwards and then they played it in slow motion and had to get a teacher in to see if I'd really done it.

Wayne Sleep16:22

And I suppose it was all to make the programme more dramatic.

Presenter16:26

Can you do the ultra shadows every time? Is it just something that happens somewhere?

Wayne Sleep16:29

Oh, no, you can do it if you really want to, I suppose. The thing is, though, you have to do it so quickly that you just as well do an enchar weed. It'll look just the same peop you know, unless you can slow it down on film and use it in um an artistic way that way. There's no

Speaker 116:41

Uh

Presenter16:41

Then um

Wayne Sleep16:44

Point in straining yourself.

Presenter16:48

Right, let's have record number five.

Wayne Sleep16:50

This is Harry Nielsen singing as time goes by. What? Well, Harry is a great friend of mine. We did a musical called The Point at The Mermaid last Christmas, and it was he who said that I should sing and get away from the ballet a bit and um do a musical and

Wayne Sleep17:09

I said, but I can't sing and he said, Yes, you can. And so then I opened my mouth and started singing. So he's been very important to me, really. And also I'm the godfather to his latest child.

Presenter17:25

You must remember this.

Presenter17:29

Kiss is still a kiss.

Presenter17:33

A sign is just a sign

Presenter17:40

The fun do

Wayne Sleep17:41

Metal C

Presenter17:44

Things apply

Presenter17:46

As time goes by

Presenter17:51

Harry Nielsen. Right, you did the Point at the Mermaid last Christmas, a children's play, and you told us about doing the Beatrix Potter film.

Presenter18:00

And what else? Oh, Shakespeare, ye

Wayne Sleep18:01

Yes, uh Ariel in the Tempest I've played. Where was that? We did a tour of it. Well, we did a national tour of it and then we went into Regent's Park in the open air. How did your acting career start?

Presenter18:09

And the

Wayne Sleep18:13

Well, it started when I was offered a part in a film called The Virgin Soldiers. John Dexter, who was also, besides being a great director, I think, a ballet fanatic at the time. He used to come to the ballet and he spotted me in Jazz Calendar and thought, Well, it's worth a try and they were looking for all different types of people. And I got the part, which was very nice, and I went out to Singapore and Malaya to shoot it, which was even nicer still. And it gave me a taste for the acting world.

Speaker 118:40

Yeah.

Presenter18:40

Which was even

Speaker 118:41

Uh

Presenter18:41

Yeah.

Presenter18:45

And you've done some cabaret?

Wayne Sleep18:46

Yes, I've I've been to California and uh I've just got back from Las Vegas where I did a show at Caesar's Palace, a T V show there.

Presenter18:54

And I was reading somewhere about a a one-man show.

Wayne Sleep18:57

Yes, I'm doing a one-man show at the Dorchester Hotel at the end of October. And I'm also doing a gala performance uh for charity on November the twenty-sevent at the Adelphi uh called A Good Night's Sleep. You're arranging the whole thing. Yes, I'm putting it together and I've got people like Anthony Dowell dancing with the ice skater John Currie and uh should be great fun and it's for a very good cause.

Presenter19:08

So you're arranging the whole thing.

Presenter19:18

No matter what you're up to, you have to fit in your morning classes.

Wayne Sleep19:22

Oh yes. Oh every morning 10.30 on the dot. Well not quite on the dot I'm afraid. I'm already

Presenter19:26

I'm okay, I'm okay.

Wayne Sleep19:28

Uh

Presenter19:28

Huh.

Wayne Sleep19:28

At the bar. Yes. Well, at the at the bar and in the centre, you know, jumping around.

Presenter19:29

Yeah.

Presenter19:31

Jump.

Presenter19:33

You have started doing some choreographing, too.

Wayne Sleep19:34

Yes, uh I choreographed a ballet for London Contemporary Dance with another boy uh called Robert North and uh that went quite well and it's been sold to San Francisco, I'm happy to say, and I'm going to put it on there in March with the San Francisco Ballet Company.

Presenter19:48

Mm-hmm.

Presenter19:51

And this is something you'd like to do more of?

Wayne Sleep19:53

Yes, I would. At the moment I don't really have time, but um I would like to do more ballets.

Wayne Sleep19:59

Another record, please. Another record. This time it's Verdi's Requiem Mass conducted by Giulini. I love the music and I was in France a couple of years ago and I was in the Dordogne in a tiny little village and when I looked on the posters outside a church it said there will be tonight a performance of the Requiem Mass with Rita Hunter singing in it and I was so amazed. I got a seat and it was one of the most fantastic live performances I've ever been to in my life and I'm just sad there isn't a recording with her singing on it.

Wayne Sleep20:41

Uh

Presenter21:37

The beginning of the Dies Eere from the Verdi Requiem Mass

Presenter21:41

Carlo Maria Giulini, conducting.

Presenter21:44

Are you a practical person, Wynne? No.

Presenter21:47

I mean, how are you going to look after yourself on this island?

Wayne Sleep21:49

Oh, um

Wayne Sleep21:51

I don't know. I've got some ideas about what I'm going to plant and uh

Presenter21:55

Oh, good, you're cultivating.

Wayne Sleep21:56

Yes, yes, I would cultivate, and I'd try and make friends with whatever animals were around.

Presenter21:58

Not drinking.

Wayne Sleep22:01

Uh

Presenter22:01

Would you try to

Wayne Sleep22:02

Okay.

Wayne Sleep22:03

No, no, no, no, no.

Wayne Sleep22:05

I'd just stay there and drift around, you know.

Presenter22:08

Right. Listening to record number seven.

Wayne Sleep22:11

This is Edith Piaff singing La Belle Histoire d'Amour. Well, um she was the first person I'd ever heard on a record that really made me think uh this is greatness and I was about fourteen and I thought now there's a person who I've just discovered who is already dead, you know, and I will never have the opportunity of ever seeing her in my lifetime. And it made me uh just think about life a little more and how short one's time is and what a lot you've got to cram in.

Speaker 122:51

Rabel toujour Louis.

Speaker 122:54

Reverend C'est coi.

Speaker 123:01

Joseph Chatoublier.

Speaker 123:04

Establish de moi, from a fait des chirais, drom aparthien catoir.

Presenter23:14

Piaf la Belle histoire d'Amour. And your last record, what's that?

Wayne Sleep23:20

It's Glenn Miller's rendition of The Sleepy Lagoon. By the Sleepy Lagoon. Yeah, it's by the Sleepy Lagoon.

Presenter23:25

Yeah.

Presenter23:26

Hmm.

Wayne Sleep23:26

Why? Well, if you've put up with it for thirty-five years, I think I could manage a few years on a desert island with it.

Presenter23:28

Well

Presenter23:34

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep23:34

Yeah.

Presenter23:34

You're not very optimistic, are you? You might be there for thirty-five years.

Wayne Sleep23:36

Yeah.

Presenter24:36

By the sleepy lagoon,

Presenter24:38

A splendid arrangement by Glenmiller

Presenter24:41

If you could take only one disc out of the eight, which would it be?

Wayne Sleep24:45

Well, today it would be um Edith Piaff singing La Belle Istoire de Monde.

Presenter24:52

And one luxury to take with you.

Presenter24:55

Yeah.

Wayne Sleep24:55

A poppy

Wayne Sleep24:57

A live growing poppy. Yes. Because I think they're very beautiful to look at and uh they're a very serviceable flower.

Presenter25:05

Well, we'll give you a supply of poppy seeds and you can cover the island with

Wayne Sleep25:09

Cover the island with the colours.

Presenter25:12

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare, and we don't allow multi-volume encyclopedias.

Wayne Sleep25:19

It was going to be Robinson Crusoe'cause I thought I'd be able to pick up a few tips, you know, while while waiting for Man Friday to appear. But, um, I think, uh, to be practical, I'd choose an Atlas of the Stars.

Presenter25:23

Yeah.

Presenter25:31

Yeah.

Presenter25:31

Hm. As an aid to navigation, if for nothing else.

Wayne Sleep25:34

Uh yes, I suppose so. But uh I've always been interested in the stars anyway. And that'll be the only thing to look at at night.

Presenter25:39

Remember

Presenter25:41

Good. And thank you, Wayne Sleep, for letting us hear your desert island disc. Thank you. Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 225:56

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.