Shirley Conran

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen seventy seven, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:32

This week our castaway is the designer and writer Shirley Conrad.

Presenter0:36

Shirley, how good would you be at coping with loneliness?

Shirley Conran0:39

Well, I think anybody who's had to put up with a long term of loneliness would think hard before saying yes fast.

Presenter0:47

Have you done that?

Shirley Conran0:48

Yes, I have. I had a a a very difficult period after my first son was born when I was in London and didn't know anybody and uh

Shirley Conran0:56

uh had uh postnatal depression. I felt very lonely.

Presenter0:59

Yeah.

Presenter1:00

What would you be happiest to have got away from?

Shirley Conran1:02

Oh, tax.

Presenter1:04

Yes.

Shirley Conran1:05

At noise, forms to fill in, modern bread, modern chickens that taste like fish.

Presenter1:11

I'll sign that.

Shirley Conran1:12

and many other little reminders of civilized life. In fact, to remind me of what I'm missing, I'd like to choose my first record, if I could. I am a Woman by Peggy Lee.

Shirley Conran1:24

I can wash out forty-four pairs of socks and have em hang

Speaker 41:26

And I am alive.

Shirley Conran1:29

Yeah.

Speaker 41:29

I can start an iron two dozen shirts, before you can count from one to nine.

Speaker 41:34

I can skip up a great big dip of full a lard from the drippin's can.

Speaker 41:38

Thrill, skillet, go out and do my shopping, be back before it melts in the pain, cause I'm a warmer.

Speaker 41:45

Whatever you owe me

Speaker 41:49

I'll say it again

Presenter1:53

I Am A Woman by Peggy Lee.

Presenter1:56

Is music important to you, Shirley?

Shirley Conran1:58

Not so much as visual things, but then, you see, I think we're so spoilt these days that I don't realize how important it is.

Presenter2:05

Do you play an instrument?

Shirley Conran2:08

No, I used to sing, but so badly I mean, I loved singing, but but so badly that all my family stopped me.

Presenter2:10

I mean I l

Presenter2:13

You had your own band once?

Shirley Conran2:15

Yes, I do.

Shirley Conran2:17

It was a rather good band. I was the worst person in it, but I did get them all together. The best person in it was Phil Harris, who went on to play for the Temperance Sevens.

Presenter2:26

Do you come from a big family?

Shirley Conran2:28

Yes, I'm the eldest of six children. That's why I want to escape from noise.

Presenter2:30

That's what

Presenter2:33

You went to Saint Paul's Girls' School in London. What were you best at?

Shirley Conran2:37

Netfall them.

Presenter2:38

Great.

Shirley Conran2:38

It's very unromantic, but I still miss it.

Presenter2:42

What did you do when you left?

Shirley Conran2:44

I went to Switzerland for a year to a finishing school, a total waste of time, except that I learnt to ski. And then I went to Southern College, Portsmouth, and

Shirley Conran2:53

Learn to be a stone carver.

Presenter2:55

Why stone cover?

Shirley Conran2:57

Well, there was only one place in the school when I wanted to go there, and that was in the dress design department, and I'm possibly the only woman you'll ever meet who doesn't think she'll make a good dress designer. And so as soon as there was another vacant place, I nipped out of that into the stone carving department, because uh my aim in life is get your foot in where you can and then heave against the door.

Shirley Conran3:19

And what I really wanted to do was to paint, and after two years I got into Chelsea Polytechnic and took a painting course.

Presenter3:26

And Wally did, in fact, hold a one woman exhibition.

Shirley Conran3:29

Yes, and that was when I was twenty one at the Architectural Association.

Presenter3:30

And that was when I was a

Shirley Conran3:33

And uh I was lucky enough to sell out.

Shirley Conran3:36

I intended to keep myself painting for the next three years on that money, but I got married instead.

Presenter3:42

And then you moved into textile designing.

Shirley Conran3:44

Yes, yes.

Presenter3:45

In fact, you wrote a book about textile designing.

Shirley Conran3:47

That's right.

Shirley Conran3:49

Printed textile design. I wrote that after I'd had a baby.

Shirley Conran3:53

After writing the book I got so interested in it that I started designing textiles myself.

Presenter3:57

Who wrote the book first?

Shirley Conran3:58

Yes. You're the first person I've ever told that to.

Shirley Conran4:02

But I did. It was quite exciting because when my sixteen-year-old son was told to

Presenter4:02

Great.

Shirley Conran4:07

Go and learn how to design textiles last year. He was told to read my book.

Presenter4:13

Oh, that's nice. Yes.

Shirley Conran4:13

That's nice.

Presenter4:16

And you started your own textile firm eventually.

Shirley Conran4:18

Yes, that's right, with my husband and Siddlewiner in Manchester.

Presenter4:22

Oh, before we talk about that, let's have your second record. What's that to be?

Shirley Conran4:25

I'd like to have a classic record, Bunny Berrigan's I Can't Get Started.

Shirley Conran4:31

Because I did find it rather difficult.

Presenter5:33

I Can't Get Started, Bunny Berrigan and His Orchestra. Now, you formed this company. Why did you do that?

Shirley Conran5:40

Because nobody would buy my designs, or I was told that nobody would. You see, I produced my first portfolio, then I went out to fabric firms trying to sell them. And um one very famous firm in Tottenham Court Road, I had the most humiliating experience. The chief buyer looked through all my designs and he thought they were so appalling that he called in other people from other departments and went over them all again, saying, weren't they appalling and dreadful? And really I left there and walked down Tottenham Court Road with my morale shattered for ever. And I thought, you know, well, if they're as bad as they say, well, obviously nobody'd buy them, so I'd better produce them myself.

Presenter6:20

And you were doing what? For export?

Shirley Conran6:22

I first started producing my own, then I found it was rather quicker and I needed to enlarge my range, you see. So I started importing from Finland and then uh f the people I imported from saw my range and they started buying from me. So I suddenly found I was in the export business as well, you see.

Presenter6:37

You then moved into journalism.

Shirley Conran6:40

Yes, I was design consultant to the home page of the Daily Mail, and then I became home page editor.

Presenter6:45

You have the splendid task of designing the show house for the ideal home exhibition.

Shirley Conran6:49

Yes, that was um

Shirley Conran6:51

Most enjoyable job every year. The most important thing was to see what your house was first, and then the first thing I used to do was design a family to go in it, and I used to invent this family and uh

Shirley Conran7:03

I remember one was a very odd house on five floors with no staircase but slopes in between. And I thought, How on earth do I justify this? So I met at a disabled dentist, you see, who couldn't walk up stairs very easily. And there are lots and lots of bedrooms in this house, so he suddenly had an enormous family. And there was one room over a garage which was really very isolated.

Speaker 27:15

Easily.

Shirley Conran7:26

And apart from the rest of the family. So I remember at that time he had acquired a disagreeable mother-in-law because that was the obvious place to keep such a person.

Presenter7:31

Uh because that

Presenter7:35

And then you moved to the observer, which was just starting its colours up. Was the Moroscope there?

Shirley Conran7:41

Uh well, actually I preferred working on the Daily Mail. I loved it on the Daily Mail. They were very, very kind to me when I started, and they were very professional outfit. And you learnt to do

Shirley Conran7:51

the right thing the first time. It was just like being back at Saint Paul's, really.

Shirley Conran7:55

Uh whereas things weren't so clear cut on the observer.

Presenter7:58

You move backwards and forwards between the two for a while.

Shirley Conran8:01

That's right, the doorman got quite used to me.

Presenter8:03

And at the Daily Mail you started the female with

Shirley Conran8:05

Yes, I've been woman's editor of the Daily Mail and of of of the Observer Hurse page.

Presenter8:06

People would say.

Shirley Conran8:10

And starting female was very exciting indeed. I worked with two marvellous men, one called Gordon Mackenzie and one called A. Robinson, known to us as Robbie. I never knew what his first name was. Anyway, he's he he was Chief Sub when I arrived. But last time I saw him he was very grand indeed, with a sun and cufflinks, you know. I was used to him with shirt sleeves rolled up, you know, and he had amazing stamina, that man. And we really between us knocked out

Speaker 28:31

It's used to hit.

Presenter8:32

Yeah.

Shirley Conran8:39

female very quickly and nobody was really very interested in it at the time.

Shirley Conran8:43

But then the first issue was amazingly successful, and it was the second issue that was difficult to produce because everybody had different ideas about it. We had to redo it about four times.

Presenter8:53

Let's have record number three.

Shirley Conran8:54

Well, I think for number three I'd like Muskrat Ramble because it's very hectic but very organized and it reminds me of the Daily Mail.

Presenter10:04

Louis Armstrong and the Hot Five. You got out of daily journalism onto a magazine.

Shirley Conran10:10

Yes, I worked as a home editor on Vanity Fair, and the editor was Audrey Slaughter, and she was a very good editor to work for because she always really let you do what you wanted to do, and at the same time she brought you on and developed your ideas. You know, she's very good to work for.

Presenter10:25

This sounds a very happy association except that the magazine closed down.

Shirley Conran10:28

Yes, we were all sacked.

Shirley Conran10:31

Yeah.

Shirley Conran10:32

They were going to close to make way for Cosmopolitan. So as there were no other f jobs in Fleet Street at the time, even though it was one one of those times when there was a great squeeze on, we started our own magazine with Order at the head of it, and that was Over Twenty One magazine.

Presenter10:47

Which is still going.

Shirley Conran10:48

Which is still going, yes. We all did very well out of it.

Presenter10:51

You mean you sell that?

Shirley Conran10:52

We sold out, yes.

Presenter10:53

What did you do with the management?

Shirley Conran10:54

I bought a farmhouse in France.

Presenter10:57

Splendid. What a good idea. Let's have another record.

Shirley Conran10:59

Well, I think this time I'd like to choose when I'm sixty-four because uh I think on a desert island one would want to have things that obviously you wouldn't get sick of. And all of the records I've chosen today are things that I've enjoyed for many, many years and I think I'd go on enjoying them. And The Beatles, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart Club's band, is really very, very good music for almost any mood.

Speaker 411:26

When I get older losing my head Many years from now

Speaker 411:33

Will he still be sending me a Valentine, Birthday greetings, bottle of wine, If I'd be out till quarter to three?

Speaker 411:43

Would you lock the door?

Speaker 411:47

Will you still need me, will you still feed me, When I'm sixty-four?

Presenter11:53

The Beatles. Well, having got a a farmhouse in France, then you really began to settle down to write. In in other words, you were headed for hard covers.

Shirley Conran12:01

Yes. I really wanted to. I wanted to when I stopped um newspaper work, I'd wanted to write a book and I'd submitted two synopses to Rainbirds, and one was for a book on housework, which turned into Superwoman, and the other one was for a combination of catalogue and autobiography of David Hockney, and they said they didn't think anyone would have heard of David Hockney, and they didn't think anyone would be interested in a book on housework, but they do seem to have been wrong.

Presenter12:30

Yes. Now, Superwoman, tell me about it. It's been called a modern Mrs. Beaton. I is that really what you are in Superwoman?

Shirley Conran12:38

Well, of course not.

Shirley Conran12:40

But in a way I do think that any woman who has to cope with a home these days and children is a superwoman because she had to be. I mean Superwoman is a is an ironic title. As a matter of fact, it's for whoever has to do the system support work in the house, man, woman or child. And I was quite interested to notice that when I both times when I've been touring with the book, um more men have bought it than women. And and and also they read it and know about it and it's I think it's most commendable that men have so much moved into the woman's field in the home in the last twenty years and women are still grumble that they don't do enough. But after all

Shirley Conran13:15

How much of man's work in the household do women do? I don't see many women with a screwdriver yet.

Presenter13:20

It's very plausible stuff. It it almost makes housework seem attractive. It makes me sort of want to go home and start. And there's a splendid attitude throughout of

Shirley Conran13:25

Never.

Presenter13:32

What you can get away without doing.

Shirley Conran13:34

Yes, quite. It it it's it's the minimum you can get away with.

Presenter13:38

Mm-hmm.

Shirley Conran13:39

It it tells you how to do it and how to avoid it. And any any corner that can be cut, I reckon I've cut it.

Presenter13:47

And you've given us a Superwoman yearbook as well.

Shirley Conran13:50

That's right.

Presenter13:51

Right.

Shirley Conran13:53

That's an annual publication and it was a bestseller last year, but this year when it comes out it's going to be in a paperback version.

Shirley Conran14:01

Uh because I particularly I wanted a the the diary equivalent for the kitchen of a man's office diary.

Shirley Conran14:08

And it's got all my recipes in it, which are tried and tested for twenty years.

Presenter14:14

Now, Superwoman's going to be published all round the world. That means different editions.

Shirley Conran14:18

Yes, there are nine editions at the moment and I've edited all of them because you see in every country there are different climate, different foods, different shops, and so I've had to get in touch with the correct people in the different countries and we are now about to launch in France, Holland, Germany, America.

Shirley Conran14:41

Canada, Australia and South Africa, and somewhere else that I can't remember.

Presenter14:44

It looks as if you're going to be busy. Back to music.

Shirley Conran14:48

I think I would like career opportunities by the clash because, again, it's going to remind me of civilization and what I'm missing.

Shirley Conran14:56

And it reminds me of my sons as well.

Speaker 415:01

They offered me the after summer neither show.

Speaker 415:06

They say I better take anything they don't

Speaker 415:11

Do you wanna make tea up for BBC? Do you wanna be? Do you really wanna be a charm?

Speaker 415:19

Carrier opportunity, the one that never knocked Every job I offer used to keep you up the dock Carrier opportunity, the one that never knocked

Presenter15:30

Career Opportunities by The Clash

Presenter15:33

You have a great social conscience, haven't you, Jolie? A few years ago you began a campaign against sexual discrimination. You had marches and rallies and sit ins and so forth.

Presenter15:44

Did it do good?

Shirley Conran15:45

Well, yes, it bill did. The bill had been thrown out five times before we started, and we were determined that if it was thrown out a sixth time, everybody wouldn't it wouldn't go down without being heard. And we wrote to nine hundred head girls who got nine hundred schools to send in petitions on exercise books. They came rolling in, and we wrote to one thousand women's organizations throughout the country, and we wrote to six hundred and forty-two MPs, and we had a torchlight rally from the House of Parliament to Downing Street.

Shirley Conran16:17

And we won the day. And I must say, it was amazingly easy, and we did it with amazingly few people.

Presenter16:24

What are you working on now? There's another project you've got.

Shirley Conran16:26

Yes, I'm very interested in nursery schooling, and I think it's appalling that the Government has done so little to follow up the recommendations of the Plowden report.

Shirley Conran16:37

The three to five year old period is a very important one in a child's life because it's when you prepare it to go to school instead of suddenly flinging it into school. And if you introduce a child gradually to the idea of work and the idea of discipline and the idea of meeting other people, then it isn't at all frightening and teachers in primary school say they can tell the first day whether a child's been to nursery school or not.

Presenter17:01

Yes indeed.

Presenter17:03

Record number six we've got.

Shirley Conran17:04

Oh well, I think for the next record

Shirley Conran17:07

I would like Mozart's Fortieth Symphony because it's got such clarity and balance, and I think I would never get tired of it. And I used to play it a lot in my first London bed sitter in Brixton, so I'd like to have it because it reminds me of Dave and the Lads at Trinity Gardens.

Presenter18:25

The opening of Mozart's Symphony No. forty in G minor, Daniel Baremboim conducting the English Chamber Orchestra.

Presenter18:32

What about Superwoman on a Desert Island? Do you think you'd be able to cope fairly efficiently in looking after yourself?

Shirley Conran18:39

Well, I'd have to, wouldn't I? And I mean, m my definition of a superwoman is somebody who doesn't try and do too much, who knows her own limitations and doesn't try and exceed them, so I'm perfectly certain she'd be quite able to cope on a desert island, although I don't think she'd need the book.

Presenter18:55

Would you try to escape?

Shirley Conran18:56

I would try and escape if there was some chance of escaping, but I mean

Presenter18:59

Ping.

Shirley Conran19:01

If Superwoman isn't too adventurous, I think I'd stay and enjoy myself on the sand.

Shirley Conran19:05

And uh

Shirley Conran19:06

Do a little sculpting in among the dunes.

Presenter19:10

Record number seven.

Shirley Conran19:11

Well, I think for that I would like Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, because it's very good music for keeping the chin up.

Presenter20:11

The beginning of the third movement of Beethoven's seventh symphony, Carry On conducting the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. Which brings us to your last one.

Shirley Conran20:20

Uh yes, for for that I'd like to choose a Billie Holiday record.

Shirley Conran20:23

And uh I've chosen my old flame, which is a wistful tear jerker. It's it's very feminine, very kittenish, and I never get tired of hearing it.

Speaker 420:40

I can't even think of his name.

Speaker 420:45

But it's funny now and then

Speaker 420:49

Now my thoughts go flashing back again

Speaker 420:54

To my old flame

Presenter20:59

MY OLD FLAME by Billy Holiday. If you could take just one disc, which would it be?

Shirley Conran21:04

I think I'd have to choose one of the classical ones and I think I'd choose the Beethoven because I've lived with it for so long.

Presenter21:11

and one luxury to take to the island with you.

Shirley Conran21:13

Well, I think a box of oil pints.

Shirley Conran21:15

Uh so long as you allowed me um

Shirley Conran21:18

Uh canvas, was that your

Presenter21:19

Well, or oil paper.

Shirley Conran21:20

Or other paper's fine, yeah.

Presenter21:22

Good.

Presenter21:23

And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare and big encyclopedias.

Shirley Conran21:27

Well, I'd find it very hard to choose between a specialist garden book for desert islands, but I think what I'd undoubtedly have is Light on Yoga, which has an introduction by Yehudi Miniuen and Anthony Gray, remember the journalist who was imprisoned so long by the Chinese.

Presenter21:42

Yeah.

Shirley Conran21:42

said he couldn't have survived, he thought, without a book on yoga.

Shirley Conran21:46

And I must say it's amazing value.

Presenter21:48

Light on Yoga

Presenter21:50

And thank you, Shirley Conran, for letting us hear your Desert Island Disc.

Shirley Conran21:54

Thank you very much, Roy.

Presenter21:56

Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 222:14

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.