Brigadier Peter Young

Brigadier Peter Young0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen seventy seven, and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:32

Our castaway this week is a soldier and a military historian, Brigadier Peter Young, DSO, MC and two bars. Now you've got yourself out of a number of tight corners during your career. We now present you with another one on a desert island. How does the idea strike you?

Presenter0:48

Why it gives me nothing but pleasure.

Presenter0:51

I should love to be on a desert island. Do you come from a m military family, Peter? Well, on and off. You know, my great-great-grandfather was a Vice-Admiral R. In, and, you know, there have been sort of military people around in the family since about the eighteenth century, but it's never been consistent in in one regiment or anything like that. Do you come from a musical family? No, I don't think so. I I shouldn't think most of them could whistle, let alone hum, you know.

Brigadier Peter Young1:10

Yeah.

Speaker 21:10

Yeah.

Brigadier Peter Young1:10

Dump.

Presenter1:17

Did you find it a difficult task to choose your eight discs? Only because there are so many things that I like. What's the first one? I thought I'd like a bit of company on this island, and I thought that if I could lure the local monkeys into coming down to meet me, I might build up sort of confidence and friendship with them. And so I thought I'd have the meeting call of uh Hulock Gibbon.

Speaker 31:45

Baby, baby, baby, baby!

Speaker 31:50

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 31:52

Yeah.

Brigadier Peter Young1:56

Woohoo!

Speaker 31:58

Bury, baby, baby, baby.

Brigadier Peter Young1:58

Boom, baby, baby, baby.

Presenter2:07

The Hulock Gibbon recorded at the London Zoo. What's your second choice?

Presenter2:12

Well, the second choice is that famous piece out of the Queen's Birthday Parade that they do on the Horse Guards Parade every year when the Huguenots comes into it. And this is a concession to my military career, and I think it's absolutely first rate.

Speaker 32:33

Yeah.

Presenter3:18

Part of the Trooping the Colour ceremony recorded on the Horse Guards Parade on june ninth, nineteen thirty eight, the bands of the household cavalry and the mass bands, pipes, and drums of the Brigade of Guard.

Presenter3:30

Now, Peter, you went to Monmouth School. What were your interests as a youngster? What did you want to be?

Presenter3:37

Well, I can't remember.

Presenter3:38

You know, I d I d I know that round about nineteen thirty four I got it into my thick head that there was going to be a war with Hitler.

Presenter3:48

But I certainly didn't decide to go into the army until round about 1938. You went to Trinity College, Oxford, I read history and I had military history as my special. And um I see now that I was sort of steering in that direction, but it took me a long time to make up my mind to it.

Speaker 33:56

What's the wait?

Speaker 34:00

Good.

Presenter4:10

In fact, you were commissioned in the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire regiment. That is so. And you served with the British Expeditionary Forces in France. Yes. You got up via Dunkirk, you were wounded.

Presenter4:22

Well, not very badly. I was wounded about a week before Dunkirk.

Presenter4:26

You then trained for a new kind of warfare. You joined number three commando. Yes, I did. I joined that in june forty as a second lieutenant, and I stayed with the commandos thereafter for the rest of the war.

Presenter4:41

You were in the raid on the Lfoton Islands.

Presenter4:44

There's a story of some of the British forces concerned sending telegrams to Hitler from a captured post office. Yes, this was the post office in Stamsund, which was in fact captured by my troop. And my subaltern, Dick Wills, sent a telegram to Hitler saying, you know, you said that wherever the British turned up in Europe you'd hurl them into the sea, where are you? It was that sort of line. In fact, that Lefoten raid had a very useful long-term strategic purpose, didn't it? Well, I think the Norway raids in general, I think Dvorzo, the other one, was probably even more important. The point was that Hitler was very sensitive to Norway and he doubled the garrison.

Presenter5:30

from one hundred fifty thousand to three hundred thousand, really as a result of the Vorgso raid in December forty one. And I always think that um

Presenter5:43

Had those extra hundred fifty thousand men been in Normandy or been in White Russia in that year, well, uh they might have made a hell of a lot of difference. As it was, they just hung about the uselessness of war. Exactly. I mean it was a economy of force, wasn't it?

Brigadier Peter Young5:56

Yes, I'm not sure.

Presenter6:00

And on D-Day you commanded number three commando at the Normandy landing. Were you in on D-Day itself? Yes. Three Commando went in at H plus ninety and um we um landed at La Brache, which is more or less the left hand end of the British front.

Presenter6:17

And that ended the war in Europe as far as you were concerned. Crossing

Presenter6:22

Normandy, you are now in command of a commando brigade.

Presenter6:26

I got command in a sense in that I went out to the Arakan and the brigadier went away after about a week and I commanded the brigade for some time, but I didn't in fact get command of a brigade until the middle of June forty five, and that was the brigade that I had been in in Normandy.

Presenter6:46

Let's have record number three. What's that to be? Well I think this time we will have a bit of nostalgia. This is Lily Marlena, which was extremely popular with the soldiers in Free Commando in 1943. And I think that this husky voice of Miss Anderson will be very evocative to some of my old friends.

Presenter7:38

Lilia Malena sung by Lala Anderson.

Presenter7:42

Now, you were arguably the the longest serving commando, officer, and and certainly the most decorated, I believe.

Presenter7:49

I expect I shall immediately be told that that isn't so. But I certainly did serve in them for a long time. What happened to you when hostilities were over? Oh, I went whistling back from brigadier to major in a few

Presenter8:04

The short

Presenter8:05

years and then gradually creeped up again to

Presenter8:09

In 1953 you were posted to the Middle East in command of the 9th Regiment of the Arab Legion. Was there a lot going on there?

Presenter8:19

Well, these were the days of Glabpasha, and um y yes, I think this is so. Th this is i at a time when the Jordanians held Jerusalem, or the old city at any rate, and a large part of uh Palestine. It was extremely

Presenter8:37

Exciting, yes, and interesting. You then wrote your first book, Bedouin Command. Yes. That's true. Long out of print.

Presenter8:46

And you formed the military history department at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. Had there not been one before? I had a predecessor, Professor Boswell, who was reader in military history and English, but he didn't have a department, and I was given the task of building up a department of military history. And in a sense, it's still there. It's now called the Department of War Studies, which isn't quite the same thing. But I was extremely fortunate in being able to recruit a band of really brilliant young military historians. And I think that it has been a very useful and successful project. How long did you run it? Ten years.

Presenter9:31

Record number four, please.

Presenter9:33

Well, the next record is a bit of um Handel's water music, chosen merely because I like it, and not because it has any particular amphibious connection.

Presenter10:41

An excerpt from suite number one of Handel's Water Music, The English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Raymond Lepard. About your books, Peter, you've written, what, thirty? Something like that. I think it's thirty-two now. All on military history, specializing in the Civil War, World War II, and two or three on the Napoleonic Wars. Yes, I'm very fond of the Napoleonic Wars, actually. I'm writing a book on Wellington's generals now, which the world I hope is waiting for with bated breath. I'm most impressed with the thoroughness of your research. Two books in particular about Civil War battles, Edgehill and Marston Moore. You practically name every combatant.

Presenter11:19

Well, when I was in Jerusalem in 1954, I started making a card index of everybody I could find of whatever rank, right down to the lowest, who had fought for Charles I or Charles II. And I suppose that there are about twenty thousand names in that now. Yeah. Surprising how good the records are in this country. And you can find the most extraordinarily obscure people in, for example, Port of Sessions records, you know.

Speaker 311:36

Even that's not

Brigadier Peter Young11:36

Pattern

Presenter11:50

Your latest book

Presenter11:51

is a dictionary of battles from 1860 to the present day. That that's a vast subject and in fact the first volume to appear i i is a vast book. Yes, we're backing into the limelight. We've published volume four first. There are going to be four volumes of it. Four volumes in it. How long is it going to take you? Oh uh the next volume, volume three, is practically ready.

Brigadier Peter Young12:06

Yeah.

Presenter12:12

Oh, we won't be too long now.

Presenter12:15

Which is your favourite battle in in English history? The book of course is worldwide, but in English history which is your favourite battle? Well I'm really very fond of the Battle of Edge Hill because I've researched it a lot and it's a it's very interesting. I'm very fond of the Battle of Vimeira because I played it as a war game with a friend of mine once and knocked out two of his guns in the first round. Where is Vimeira? Vimeira's up by Lisbon, up the road from Lisbon. It's a battle that Wellington fought when he first landed in Portugal in 1808.

Presenter12:49

You mentioned war games. You're very keen on war games, aren't you? Yes, I am. I wrote a book about war games, but I learned to play war games before the last one, before I was in the army, from an old army captain. And I found it very useful. I found that I learned a lot about tactics from it. And you'd never catch me, for example, being in a battle without having a reserve and that sort of thing, you know. How do you play on a sand table or how? Well, you can, yes, you can play it on a sand table or on a model. It doesn't really matter. The thing is to have rules that genuinely relate to what happens in war.

Speaker 312:52

Uh

Presenter13:26

We've got to record number five now. Yes, well now we've got Die Zauberfloater with um Dietrich Fischer Dieska and Lisa Otto singing a duet which I very much like and uh if Lisa Otto can't be in person with me on the island she might as well come and sing to me.

Speaker 313:59

Ha bump hop

Speaker 314:11

Papa Paki.

Brigadier Peter Young14:13

Yeah.

Brigadier Peter Young14:22

All right.

Brigadier Peter Young14:23

Uh

Speaker 314:26

Feiche Freulevilta Sein Feije Freulein Fein divertons per dengue kingdom line kingdom line

Brigadier Peter Young14:31

Mm-hmm.

Brigadier Peter Young14:38

Uh who shall be

Brigadier Peter Young14:40

So leave them climbing, keep them flying.

Presenter14:45

Dietrich Fischer Discow and Lisa Otto singing Papageno and Papagena in The Magic Float.

Presenter14:52

Now among your distinctions is the title of Captain General of the Sealed Knot.

Presenter14:57

Now the Sealed Knot was a royalist secret society in the interregnum period working for the return of the Stuarts to the throne. Well the Stuarts did come back to the throne, so what are you working for now? Well keep them there I suppose. It is in fact your private army. Well I suppose you could say that, yes. It's completely unpolitical, I hasten to add. But we've got about 3,000 members and it was formed in 1968 and it seems to have caught on and it seems to fulfil some, I don't know, atavistic feeling in our people. We stand for Old England, Roy. You reconstruct the sieges and battles of the Civil War period. Yes.

Brigadier Peter Young15:33

Is it

Presenter15:39

How many sieges and battles have you fought? More than eighty. I can't remember exactly how many, but really a tremendous number. And each member has his own uniform?

Presenter15:48

Yes. This is one of the things that has been a tradition with us, uh that they must be self-sufficient. This was a commando thing, you see. The people have got to be able to look after themselves. They're no use otherwise. What about the cavalry? They have to supply their own horses, too. Well, if they've got their own horse, that's that much better. But in fact, we hire horses. To some extent, we use our own horses, we hire horses. You use the original sights for these things. If we can. But we'll put things on in places uh otherwise for a spectacle.

Presenter16:19

Now, using pikes and muskets as a skilled trade, do people get hurt? Yes. We might have eight hundred people in a battle, but we don't get anything very much in the way of casualties. You use explosives?

Presenter16:32

Yes, in a controlled way. Who plays the enemy, the the parliamentarians? Oh, the enemy play the enemy. I mean, you know, we've got roundheads and royalists. Oh, you have. They're not all good. In the sealed knot, you've got the. Absolutely, yes. We're not all good people at all. Some of the parliamentarians have complained that the captain general doesn't allow them to win as much as a single skirmish. That's royalists all the way. Yes, that's true. That's true. Quite true. Actually, they do win sometimes. If in history they won, then they win. And sometimes, I'm so reasonable, am I.

Brigadier Peter Young16:41

Uh

Brigadier Peter Young16:43

Absolutely.

Brigadier Peter Young16:53

That's drawing the

Presenter17:04

uh so long as I'm not crossed, that um, you know, they win on the Saturday and we win on the Sunday.

Presenter17:11

That's how can you be fairer than that?

Presenter17:14

In addition to sealed knot battles and sieges, there are also sealed knot feasts. Yes, I'm told so. I don't go to them very much. I like to go into winter quarters around about the end of October and emerge when it gets warmer towards the end of March. But a lot of people go round in i in the winter time feasting, it's true. Record number six. Ah, now the Beggars' Opera. It's true that I know the Beggars' Opera practically from beginning to end, but um it'll sort of help me when I'm singing the whole thing through to myself and my monkeys.

Speaker 317:47

So soon the half years night would pass. Where I sold our inn and sire, soon as the burning day was closed, I would not the surgery toil when I my daughter's blessed repose. I would love you all the day. Every night would kiss and play. If with me you'd fondly stray over the hills and far away, where we lay in my arms and kiss my last. Over the main return of Russia, the half years night would pass.

Brigadier Peter Young17:48

Fear's light would pass

Brigadier Peter Young17:52

Many favours to

Brigadier Peter Young17:56

Before

Brigadier Peter Young17:58

The first person

Brigadier Peter Young18:15

Where I say dying is because I want to make my

Brigadier Peter Young18:25

Yeah.

Speaker 318:25

I would love you all the day. Every night would dissuade. If with me you'd find bliss the rest.

Speaker 318:39

Over the hills and far away

Presenter18:45

An excerpt from The Beggar's Opera, conducted by Richard Austin. Now, from what we've heard about your military career, I don't think you'd have any trouble surviving on a desert island. You could rig up some kind of hut, could you? I'm hoping that the monkeys will make a hut for me, or show me a cave, or something like that. But I could, I think, make a kind of dugout if there was a kind of um cliff face or something like that, you know. But I am not really very useful at making things. Have you done any fishing? Oh, no, no. What are you going to eat?

Presenter19:17

Well, I suppose the money monkeys will provide me with coconuts or something, won't they? I do hope so. Will you try to escape? No, certainly not. Certainly not. I hope I should be very comfortable and happy on your island. And if people want to get me out of the island, they can come and rescue me. And I mentioned this question to my dear wife. And she said, Well, I'd come up near the island and have a look at you. And if I didn't care for what I saw, I'd go away again. Bless her. Well, your dear wife, bless her, corrects your proofs and does all your typing. I know, I think she's entitled to a holiday, don't you? Record number seven.

Brigadier Peter Young19:21

We tried

Brigadier Peter Young19:43

Bless her.

Brigadier Peter Young19:47

Yeah.

Presenter19:53

What is Life? Well, what is Life indeed? But it's a beautiful song. I've only chosen this because I like it, and I adore the haunting notes of Kathleen Ferrer's voice.

Speaker 320:07

Tis the life movie will for to live.

Speaker 320:20

Tears Mars.

Speaker 320:24

We want to be the

Speaker 320:46

I give you

Speaker 320:48

You're a dear man.

Speaker 320:51

I hear.

Presenter21:06

Kathleen Ferrier singing What Is Life from Glux, Ortheus and Eurydice. What's your last record?

Presenter21:14

Ah Well, the last one is Ravel's Bolero. Quite different really to the other ones, but again this I think is a most marvellous um piece of music. It's tremendously vital.

Presenter22:27

The closing passage of Ravel's Bolero, Jean-Martinot conducting the Paris Orchestra. If you could take just one disc out of your eight, which would it be? I suppose I'll have to take the monkeys one to begin with, otherwise I shan't get any company. But um leaving that apart, I think possibly the Huguenots, because of its sort of military thing. One luxury. Ah! Now, I take it this is a sort of treasure island, isn't it? Yes, you can call it. Yeah. I thought about a ton of treasure. Mixed treasure. Yeah, sort of doubloons and pieces of eight and that sort of thing from around about 1642.

Brigadier Peter Young22:55

Yeah.

Presenter23:06

And then the monkeys and I could put this in piles and we could play war games with it and the Dutch against the Spaniards. It'd be great fun. And then if I my wife did condescend to come and rescue me, we'd be enormously rich for the rest of our lives. And I think that would be a very nice luxury, don't you? A ton or so of treasure. Right, that we'll organise.

Brigadier Peter Young23:23

Right, that will organise.

Presenter23:25

And one book apart from the Bible, Shakespeare, and big encyclopedias? Well, I think on the whole I shall have to have a great big book which is empty with a pencil sticking down the spine or something like that, and I will write down all that I think that I know. It's probably a bit tendentious, but it'll be fun doing it. Right. Write your own book. And thank you, Brigadier Peter Young, for letting us hear your Desert Island disc. Well, Roy, thank you for putting up with me. It's been great fun. Goodbye, everyone.

Brigadier Peter Young24:03

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.