Duncan Grant

Speaker 10:00

This download is the only extract the BBC has of this edition of Desert Island Discs. The presenter was Roy Plumley.

Speaker 10:08

Mr. Grant, you recently celebrated your 90th birthday and you're still working hard. In fact, you've had an exhibition in London of pictures you've painted during the last five years.

Speaker 10:19

Do you paint every day?

Duncan Grant0:21

Yes, for whenever I can.

Duncan Grant0:24

I have rather to arrange my life, a painting life, according to the weather.

Duncan Grant0:30

In the winter I can only paint up till about four o'clock. The light goes so early.

Duncan Grant0:37

But in the summer

Duncan Grant0:39

I can go on much later.

Speaker 10:41

and you have a retrospective exhibition at the Tate Gallery.

Duncan Grant0:46

Yes, that's true.

Speaker 10:48

Now let's go back to the beginning. You're a Scot, aren't you?

Duncan Grant0:51

Yeah.

Speaker 10:53

And you spent your early childhood in India. Why was there?

Duncan Grant0:56

Um well, my father was a soldier.

Duncan Grant0:59

And my mother and father moved.

Duncan Grant1:01

To India after he had to leave his

Duncan Grant1:05

first regiment, which was a bit too smart for him and but very which he couldn't afford.

Duncan Grant1:11

Unless he changed to a line regiment, which we did, and then found ourselves in India.

Duncan Grant1:18

till I was nine years old, which was the age when they sent boys and the girls back to England.

Speaker 11:25

What inspired you to take up painting in the first place? Obviously in your home you hadn't mixed with artists living in India.

Duncan Grant1:34

Yeah.

Duncan Grant1:35

Would

Duncan Grant1:36

No, not in India. Certainly not.

Duncan Grant1:39

But earlier on with school

Duncan Grant1:41

Maim.

Duncan Grant1:43

Cool lady.

Duncan Grant1:45

was sent a large and important book on Burne-Jones.

Duncan Grant1:50

And this was an absolute revelation to me. Feelings I had were purely settled ones, and I never had them before.

Duncan Grant2:00

So I think that was the

Duncan Grant2:02

a point in my life which was very important because it

Duncan Grant2:07

It um put me on the way.

Speaker 12:09

Van Jones was the first influence.

Duncan Grant2:10

First and foremost.

Duncan Grant2:16

Although I've had many other influences.

Speaker 12:19

You were destined for the army yourself, weren't you?

Duncan Grant2:21

My parents hoped I would go into the army.

Speaker 12:23

Don't How did you escape?

Duncan Grant2:26

Well, I was rel adamant.

Duncan Grant2:30

I wouldn't do such a thing.

Speaker 12:31

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:33

So from the army class at St Paul's, you went to art school.

Duncan Grant2:37

Yeah. Uh

Speaker 12:38

Who influenced you to paint? What what is the inspiration of that?

Duncan Grant2:43

Um

Duncan Grant2:44

Well, I luckily had a very

Duncan Grant2:46

Claire headed aunt, Leda Strechi, who was Lytton Stretchy's mother.

Speaker 12:51

Yeah.

Duncan Grant2:52

Who said to my master at Saint Paul's,

Duncan Grant2:55

Why do you keep him on here, in your class? He's doing no good. Why shouldn't he start by doing what he wants to do?

Duncan Grant3:03

So my mm schoolmaster was a sensible man and said, why not?

Duncan Grant3:08

He can go whenever he likes, if you find a place for him to go to.

Duncan Grant3:12

And so she said, All right, I'll go I'll send him to the Westminster School of Art.

Speaker 13:17

Yeah.

Duncan Grant3:18

Which she did and I started my

Duncan Grant3:21

training as an arts student there.

Duncan Grant3:23

When I was seventeen.

Speaker 13:25

I believe you were turned down by the Royal Academy School.

Duncan Grant3:29

Yes, I was. But that was

Duncan Grant3:31

I suppose natural. I I didn't particularly object to that.

Speaker 13:35

You've never exhibited at the Royal Academy during your career.

Duncan Grant3:38

No, never exactly.

Duncan Grant3:41

A picture that they had a right s to show because it was bought by the Contemporary Art Society, but it was never never shown as at an academy exhibition.

Speaker 13:51

When was it that you first felt that you were secure and and established as a painter? How early or late in your career did you think, well, I have now

Speaker 14:02

reached a point where I can consider myself established.

Duncan Grant4:07

I don't think I ever did.

Duncan Grant4:10

I I I sold at one sometime fair, I had an exhibition and sold a certain number. I mean prices in those days were so low.

Duncan Grant4:19

But it didn't mean I felt secure at all.

Duncan Grant4:22

But I felt more secure and more encouraged.

Duncan Grant4:25

But the fact that more people seem to care for one's work.

Duncan Grant4:29

But that didn't mean that I was an established figure in any way.

Speaker 14:34

You become a member of what was called the Bloomsbury Cetre, a group of friends, painters and writers and wits who exercised a lot of influence in artistic matters and had certain ideals in common. What were those ideals?

Duncan Grant4:49

Honesty and the love of truth, I think, which led to friendship between all the members. But I don't think it was the least self-conscious attitude.

Speaker 14:58

Who were the leaders?

Duncan Grant4:59

Believe

Duncan Grant5:00

Well, I should have said that

Duncan Grant5:02

Lytton Stretcher was one of the leaders.

Duncan Grant5:05

Virginia Wolf Another.

Speaker 15:07

Yeah.

Duncan Grant5:08

Clive Bell, and a great influence was Roger Fry.

Speaker 15:12

Where was the meeting place? In each other's homes and studios?

Duncan Grant5:14

Yes, no other place than that.

Speaker 15:17

Some good parties, one gap.

Duncan Grant5:19

Yes, excellent. Delightful and helpful.

Speaker 15:23

and some rather good practical jokes. There's a story about

Speaker 15:27

Some Abyssinians, was it, who decided to inspect one of His Majesty's dreadnoughts, and you were involved in that. W would you care to tell us their story?

Duncan Grant5:37

Well, yes.

Duncan Grant5:39

I was asked by Adrian Stephen, who lived in the same square as I did at that moment, in Fitzroy Square.

Speaker 15:47

Yeah.

Duncan Grant5:48

And although he didn't know me very intimately at that time, he knew me well enough to ask me if I would join the hoax.

Duncan Grant5:55

Which I said great fun, I said, certainly.

Duncan Grant5:59

And so he then told me all the different things I must do.

Duncan Grant6:03

And we will all be made up.

Duncan Grant6:05

by Clarkson, who was in a celebrated makeup for theatrical people.

Duncan Grant6:12

And uh

Duncan Grant6:13

Otherwise, I don't think that we were asked to do very much. We were sent

Duncan Grant6:18

Our robes, many wonderful jewels for our fingers.

Duncan Grant6:23

and told it to be ready to go at six o'clock in the morning.

Duncan Grant6:28

by train to Weymouth.

Duncan Grant6:32

None of us knew what was going to happen except that we were going to interview the Admiral on his ship, the Red North.

Speaker 16:37

and pretending to be Abyssinians.

Duncan Grant6:37

And

Duncan Grant6:39

The Emperor and his Suite, and Secretary and so on.

Speaker 16:42

Yeah, so who

Duncan Grant6:42

That's a whole draw.

Duncan Grant6:44

De Vier Cole, who'd organized the whole thing, was

Duncan Grant6:48

None that got up at all, just himself.

Speaker 16:51

Yes. And what happened when you got to Weymouth?

Duncan Grant6:54

At Weymouth we were encouraged because there was a red carpet put down at the station. A band played a tune we didn't know.

Duncan Grant7:03

and we will present it to naval officers in full uniform.

Speaker 17:07

Presumably this had been the Abyssinian national entry.

Duncan Grant7:10

I pres presumably suppose so.

Speaker 17:13

By the navel band.

Speaker 17:15

Yeah.

Duncan Grant7:17

I remember that I and Virginia Woolff were both dressed as princes.

Duncan Grant7:23

From Evisinia.

Duncan Grant7:25

But I afterwards heard that this the officer said that if they had only known she was a woman.

Duncan Grant7:32

They had a throne into the sea.

Speaker 17:34

That doesn't sound like naval gallantry somehow. And then you were taken on board.

Duncan Grant7:37

No, somehow.

Duncan Grant7:40

Yeah, yes. And um

Duncan Grant7:42

We were introduced one by one to the Admiral and his staff. And the first lieutenant happened to be a cousin of Adrian Stevens.

Duncan Grant7:52

and said, My wife, that chap is very much like my cousin Adrian.

Duncan Grant7:56

But it didn't go any further.

Speaker 17:59

We were given lunch.

Duncan Grant8:01

Uh the wind was so great that we couldn't eat in power in the open air with without our beards falling all in little bits and we whisked off in the sea. So we they were told that we didn't care to eat in public.

Duncan Grant8:16

And we would like to go downstairs.

Duncan Grant8:18

to be out of view of

Duncan Grant8:20

Most people.

Duncan Grant8:22

We were shown all over the ship, and even the most secret things we were shown.

Speaker 18:27

Very little security, it seems. How long did you keep up the hoax?

Duncan Grant8:28

How long?

Duncan Grant8:32

Well, I it went on. I suppose we arrived in about twelve and we didn't leave till

Duncan Grant8:38

From about f half or four or five in the evening.

Speaker 18:44

And did they ever discover it?

Duncan Grant8:46

Coal

Duncan Grant8:47

immediately went and told her.

Duncan Grant8:49

Daily Mail or something about it. So the whole secret was out next morning.

Duncan Grant8:56

I was furious, I remember

Speaker 18:58

Was there any official trouble? Did anybody complain or?

Duncan Grant9:01

I hope they complained a great deal.

Duncan Grant9:05

In fact, the Admiral was life was made miserable by the crowds in the streets.

Duncan Grant9:12

It's like singing out.

Duncan Grant9:14

Batoga, Batoga or something, that's because they thought that's the language we were using. And after that it was a technique.

Duncan Grant9:22

They're very unpopular in in in the

Duncan Grant9:26

House of Commons and so on and

Duncan Grant9:28

Uh King Edward heard about it.

Duncan Grant9:31

and sorted as a shocking fun making fun of his Navy.

Duncan Grant9:36

And if any of us ever wanted to go to Buckingham Palace, we shouldn't be admitted.

Speaker 19:41

You were jolly lucky not to be invited to the Tower of London. Well, I know what it'd be nowadays. For over sixty years you've been

Duncan Grant9:44

Well I know what

Speaker 19:49

A leading painter. Would you say you've been a prolific one?

Duncan Grant9:52

Yes, I think I would.

Speaker 19:55

If you were told that only one piece of your work was going to survive, what would you like it to be? A difficult question that.

Duncan Grant10:03

Well, I find it such a difficult question that I dr

Duncan Grant10:07

I really don't know that I could answer it.

Duncan Grant10:09

with any conviction, but there is a picture in the Tate Gallery which belongs to them.

Duncan Grant10:15

called the tub.

Duncan Grant10:17

which I think is is satisfactory, a satisfaction to me while I did it and it still is.

Speaker 110:23

Yes. That was while you were still very much under the influence of the post-impressionist.

Speaker 110:29

You were in those days something of a rebel. What do you think of the work of the young rebels of today, the people whose work seems

Speaker 110:38

To ask perhaps a little outrageous.

Duncan Grant10:42

I never feel that outrageous.

Duncan Grant10:45

But I think I should say that they were perhaps wrongly directed sometimes, but not

Duncan Grant10:51

Not all

Speaker 110:52

Not outrageous.

Duncan Grant10:53

I know.

Duncan Grant10:54

I hope they are.

Speaker 111:00

What do you like to do when you're not painting?

Speaker 111:03

Do you do you read a lot? Do you like pottering round the garden?

Duncan Grant11:08

Yes, I like pottery around the garden and I like r reading.

Duncan Grant11:13

And I have very little else to do, really.

Speaker 111:16

Well, if you do a full day's painting, that that's

Duncan Grant11:19

That's about it. I like talking to people.

Speaker 111:19

That's a bad idea.

Duncan Grant11:22

And

Duncan Grant11:23

My life seems very full. I mean, I don't find it empty.

Speaker 111:28

I'm sure of that.