Emma Grede

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the businesswoman Emma Greed. Until recently, she was the hidden powerhouse behind some of fashion's biggest success stories, from Natalie Portman as the face of Dior to the brands Skims and Good American, which she launched with the Kardashian sisters Kim and Chloe respectively. Last year, Forbes included her on their list of America's richest self-made women, putting her worth at a cool $405 million. Her fashion fairy tale began in humble circumstances. She grew up in Plasto, East London, the eldest of four children in a single parent family.

Presenter1:19

She got her first job at twelve and later dropped out of the London College of Fashion to pursue a hustle of her own. By her mid twenties she'd founded her first company.

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Lately her success has led her out of the boardroom and into the spotlight, with guest appearances on US show Shark Tank and the British equivalent Dragon's Den. That last is, she says, the only show biz gig she's ever chased down. She wanted to impress her nan.

Presenter1:43

She says, we've built this notion that things happen quickly, that you can be an overnight success, and also that you'll be happy all the time while you're trying to get there. I've done jobs I love and jobs that have been miserable. All that has brought me to where I am today. I just want to be realistic about what it takes to get to the very top. Emma Greed, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Oh, thank you, Lauren. I'm so happy to be here. I can't even tell you. Well, we are delighted to have you. Let's start at the very top, Emma. What does a typical day look like for you at this point in your career? Oh, good lord, what a place to start. It looks exhausting, to be perfectly honest. You know, I still go into the office every single day, five days a week. And, you know, I'm a mum of four. And so in the morning, like, my day starts early. If I'm going to get any semblance of like a minute alone, that has to start at like 5 a.m. And then the chaos ensues. And honestly, like, it goes like that for the rest of the day, if I'm honest. No one comes to me when everything's working out. You know, it's like my day is a series of problems. Okay. And when everything's perfect, no one says anything. But the minute there's a problem, it's my problem. You call yourself, Emma, an ambitious little monster. It's an accurate description. Is that drive still as strong as it ever was within you? You know, when you're from East London, it's gritty and you feel like I'm bought on this earth and I'm going to work. I came out of the womb, like leaning in, bite things off, tear it up. And I don't think that's going anywhere. It's not like with success that I've become complacent. I'm almost like, wow, there's so much in the world and there's so much stuff to do. And there's so many, honestly, like there's so many problems. And so in a way, I just think, oh, like, if not me, then who? I know you're a habitual planner. Always have fear. How far ahead do you like to look? What's always important to me is to have a vision for yourself. What type of woman do I want to be? What do I want people to know me for? And so that's like a really long-term thing because I think of my life in like these decades. You know, I had a 30-plan and the 40-plan, I've got the 50-plan. But I like to have a plan for the year in front of me. What's important? Important to me right now in my life. Like, where am I trying to get? And right now, what's the word for 2026 if there is one? I brand every year because I'm like forever a marketeer. I was like, this will be my breakout year. Breaking free from the idea of what I am because, again, you get a lot of rejection as a woman, and especially a woman in business where there's any kind of idea of what it is that you've done, how you've become successful. I would like to break free of some of those notions. Your husband Jens works with you on several projects, and I did notice that on your podcast, you spoke out about comments people have made about the two of you working together and the idea of you marrying well. Yes. Do you know what? It's so funny because when you write a book, it's very considered. And so I fully expected that there would be debates around some of the things that I'd said. But when a lie comes out, when someone says she married into wealth, or you know, she took an elevator to the top, I was like, absolutely won't have it. And I would have, you know, really put my hand up and gone, yes, darling, I married well. But it's just like, I absolutely didn't. We definitely became successful in parallel to one another, but there's no such thing as, you know, a shortcut in this life. I would have been successful regardless of who I married or if I ever married. And for you and Jens, I mean, as you work together, how much shop talk is allowed at home? Oh, all of the talk, all the time. I love fashion and I love what I do. And I'll go home and I'll be like, oh my gosh, Jens, you know, I found this shop and this is what the rent is. And he's like, that's going to be too much. Like, you need to go and talk to this person, you know, and it's like, we do, we do that all the time. And of course, we're going to hear your music. Tell us about your first track, Emma. What's it going to be? So the first one is The Diana Ross.

Speaker 22:53

His dad drives

Emma Grede3:23

Oh yeah.

Emma Grede3:59

And I

Presenter5:23

Version of Ain't No Mountain High Enough. As opposed to the Marvin Gaye, as opposed to the Marvin Gay one, which please don't people send me. It's like I love both, but you know, I am like an advocate for all things female. I am obsessed with Diana Ross. I thought she was so beautiful. There weren't that many black women on the TV. And so to me, I was like, oh, when I am a big girl, like, I'm going to look like Diana Ross. I'm going to have those sparkly outfits. I'm going to like move like that. But this song, particularly, you know, there's a part in the song where it's just spoken. And the words are so beautiful. And I used to imagine that somebody was speaking them to me. And so it just has like such a special place in my heart. I love it. I listen to it all the time.

Emma Grede5:27

As opposed to the Marvin Gaye one with

Speaker 36:25

We find the

Speaker 36:29

Please note.

Speaker 36:31

Keep it.

Presenter6:33

Diana Ross, and ain't no mountain high enough. So Emma Green, let's go back to the beginning, shall we? You were born in 1982 in Plasto, East London. Tell me about the area that you grew up in, because I know it's important to you. How would you describe it? Well, it is really important to me because I think being from East London is so much a part of my identity as a person. I think that it was a precursor for the type of woman I'd become, but also the type of business person I'd become. Well, you couldn't talk.

Emma Grede6:58

Yeah.

Presenter7:00

Crap in East London. Like your word was king, right? If you said something, then you better do it or else basically. So suffer the consequences. But also there's this part of trust, really trusting the people that were directly around you. I grew up in like a cul-de-sac and so you knew every single person's business in that cul-de-sac. But then there was also this thing of respect for your elders, of like really being a sort of like member of a community. But they were also like, I don't want to say scary, but you know, it was a really tough neighborhood and you had to have your wits about you and you had to think and sort of behave in a way.

Emma Grede7:18

In that

Presenter7:39

That meant that you weren't a kid for very long. Do you know what I mean? It's like my mum left the house every day. She went out, she went to work. I was left with my three sisters. And so there was a lot of um

Emma Grede7:41

Chinoido

Presenter7:50

I didn't experience it as pressure, so I won't say it's pressure. There was just a lot of responsibility on me at a very young age. And so you grow up really quickly. You described yourself, I think, as a parentified child. The joke in the family is that my mum's the dad, I'm the mum, and we've got three kids together. Right. So, what kind of things did you have to do for your little sisters and at what ages? I mean, I mean, first of all, you know, so much of it was a plus. I could make a full roast dinner for six people by the time I was 12. Like, no one was like, mind the pots and pans. Like, you know, use an oven glove. It was like just expected of me. So I used to get up in the morning, I'd make three pack lunches, I'd iron three school shirts, we'd get off to school. How old are you at this point?

Emma Grede7:55

Yeah.

Emma Grede8:14

No what?

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And I will do you

Presenter8:26

I'm like 10, 11, 12. Blinding. Like, do you know what I mean? But again, I never saw it as an imposition. You were just helping your mum. So, let's talk about your mum, Jenny Lee. She worked long hours on a trading desk at an investment bank. She was amazing, and she is amazing, my mum, because look, she had me when she was 21, so she was a kid herself. So she was someone under immense pressure with very little means to look after us all. She was just trying to get through the day. I think what she gave me was a lot more than she took away. She gave like really clear values: you're going to work hard, you are capable of everything. And you know, I always talk about this one line that she gave me, which was, Emma, you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And so, when I grew up and started going into these like work placements and hanging around with sort of like a different side of like London society, I really believed that no one was better than me.

Emma Grede8:56

She got

Emma Grede9:18

Yeah.

Presenter9:20

Your mum and dad split when you were five, I think. Yeah, so how much contact did you have with Steve, your dad? Not a sausage. And you know, depending who you ask, they'll have a different story. My dad was like, I was always trying to see you. Mum's like, he didn't give it, you know, he wasn't around. At the end of the day, you know, I go, it was what it was. And I have an amazing relationship with my dad now, but that didn't really establish itself until I was in my late teens. And that is really difficult, you know. And I had an amazing uncle, my uncle Joe, who was so.

Emma Grede9:22

Yeah, yeah.

Emma Grede9:43

Mm-hmm.

Presenter9:50

Big in my life, and again, still is to this day. My granddad, who's passed now, but they were the men that really were around me. So, I had a lot of male influence. I just didn't have my dad around like in those early years. Your mum's white, British, your daddy, exactly. So, were you able to kind of connect with that part of your own heritage growing up, or did that come later? No, my mum was amazing at connecting us to that side of our lives. We still had a relationship with our grandparents. My mum later had a boyfriend that she was with for 10 years who was Jamaican. And so, like, when it came to the culture that is so much like around food and family and celebration, like I was very, very connected specifically to Jamaican culture, which is why I'm such an amazing chef, by the way. Um, you know, with the jerk chicken and the rum cake and all the traditions that I learned from my stepdad's family, right? But my mum, I think she was very purposeful in saying, You are always going to be seen as a black woman, right? I'm mixed race, half white, half black. I remember going to her office the first time and people not understanding that we were her kids, so like being left at the reception for a long time. And we're like, We're here for Jenny Lee, like we're Jenny's kids, you know, and no one could quite put it together. But it's interesting as a kid when that's a good thing. You know what? Again, I don't know if I just lived in a bubble, just never took it personally, never thought it was about me. I had supreme confidence. I was like, What a loser! Like, how ridiculous that you have this out? I don't know. I think that my mum was just really good at explaining things. She was like, Yeah, like some people are ignorant. You're just gonna dash yourself off and move on. Good fab, yeah, she's good. I mean, she's a force, she's a thing.

Emma Grede10:00

Just didn't have my

Emma Grede10:32

Which is the bottom side.

Emma Grede10:34

Yeah.

Emma Grede10:40

Right.

Emma Grede10:43

Okay.

Emma Grede10:46

Right.

Emma Grede10:54

Yeah.

Emma Grede10:55

I'm gonna go.

Speaker 310:56

Yeah.

Speaker 310:57

Like which

Speaker 311:02

But it's interesting as a kid when that's

Speaker 311:15

We can't figure that out.

Speaker 211:26

Yeah.

Presenter11:32

All right, let's have some more music, Emma. It's your second disc today. What's it gonna be? From one superwoman, my mother. All right, so this song, Karen White, Superwoman, me and my sister sung this on a home video when we were very little. Like I must have been nine or ten or something like that, all in these perfect white dresses. But it's so much, you know, those songs in the late 80s, early 90s, they all had this like beautiful narrative, like they were telling you a story. And this, it's a beautiful, sad, depressing story in a song that for some reason my 10-year-old self really felt all four of you should perform. I was like, do you know what? Like, we should just stand up and sing this one.

Speaker 312:13

You're a simple woman

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I'm not the kind of girl that you can let down and think that everything's okay. Boy, I am only human

Speaker 312:33

This girl needs more than occasional hearts as a token of love from you and me.

Presenter12:41

Karen White and Superwoman. So Em agreed, you had lots of responsibilities as a kid, it's fair to say. Tell me how you got on at school. You know, it's such a shame because I'm such a smart girl, really. You know, I didn't do that well at school, but I don't know if that was like the dyslexia. I don't know if I had a bit of a bad attitude. I have such an appetite and a thirst for learning. Like, it's one of my things. I just don't think they did a very good job of piquing my curiosity. But, you know, I'm very social. So there were other parts of school. You know, like, I loved playtime. I loved chatting with the teachers. And you started working pretty young. I mean, 12. Really young. As you said. So you got paper round first. Then what other kind of stuff? Oh, my goodness. I did, I feel like I've done every job on the planet. Paper round I loved because it was like all about the mornings, right? And I saw a different side of life. I was like, look at all these people that get up super early and they go out to work and they have like these must have such an important job. And then it was like, I worked in a deli, I worked in the corner shop, I worked in a lot of different clothing shops. And I really believed that I could work my way out of.

Speaker 313:19

Well

Speaker 313:21

Yeah.

Presenter13:46

East London out of plasto and into like a better circumstance. And I think you also were quite up for learning whatever each job could give you. Like, you know, the deli job, for example, you know, you said that you learned quite a lot from that, even though you haven't ended up making toasty. The best looking cheeseball on the planet, I can do. But it's like I was even entrepreneurial then. I remember saying to the owner, she was like, We don't make enough money, like these sandwiches. I was like, Hey, you need to put the prices up because this is ridiculous. Our ingredients are so good, and the amount of palm of ham I put in there is crazy. I was like, Why don't we make Christmas hampers? You know, I'd put all these things in, you'd have 80 quids worth of stuff, and she'd be like, So 89.99. I'd be like, No, let's charge 125. Like, what are you doing? That was just me. Like, I was always trying to figure out how do you make a buck, how do you take something that's like you've got not a lot and you have to stretch it. And that comes from my background, right? Like, I'd have to do that with a chicken to feed four kids and my mum when she got home. And so, you do exactly the same thing. I just have a way of like stretching. And there's also like the idea of you know, whatever it is that you're doing, do a really good job. Like, if you're making a toastie, make the best toasty. Oh, and I talk about this all the time because I think that people are obsessed with like what's coming next. Well, people only notice you when you're excellent at what you're doing, and you'll be given other opportunities to do other things when you are meticulous. And I think that I can apply that to anything. You know, I made the best sandwich and the best cup of coffee in the same way that right now I make the best snickers and I make the best jeans. So, Emma, at 16, you enrolled in a business course at the London College of Fashion. You said you were certain that you could run Top Shop someday. Where did your self-belief come from? There's a certain part of it that is like in you, right? Like, that's innate. But also, I never imagined that anything I failed at would kill me because I saw so much failure around me. And so, for me, I had no choice but to tell myself another story because otherwise, I would just be like just totally inactive. Like, and that would never have worked for me. So, I had to tell myself a different version of what was possible. And my mum was right. Like, I'm not better. Than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than me. And I knew that because when I got out into the real world, I was like, these people are all making it up as they go along. You were out on your own pretty young. I mean, super young. So 16, I think, when you were at college, you were sleeping on a friend's couch because your mum at that point had moved to Spain with a partner. I mean, that is very young to have all of that responsibility. But by the same token,

Speaker 313:59

You know, you haven't ended up

Emma Grede14:00

Making toast

Speaker 314:01

Best looking

Emma Grede14:02

Uh

Emma Grede14:35

God have to do

Emma Grede14:44

Yeah.

Speaker 314:44

And there's also like

Speaker 314:50

Oh.

Emma Grede14:51

Uh

Emma Grede15:06

You know, I

Emma Grede15:32

And so

Emma Grede15:38

And that

Emma Grede15:55

Yeah.

Emma Grede16:01

Yeah,

Emma Grede16:05

It was a very

Presenter16:08

There was an element of freedom because, for the first time in my life, I only had me to think about. There was a tremendous sense of guilt around that as well, because I was like, My sisters really need me. Like, who's gonna sort them out? Like, who's gonna make sure they get to school on time? But I also knew that.

Emma Grede16:09

Mm-hmm

Speaker 316:10

Uh

Emma Grede16:10

Uh

Presenter16:24

I had to have a go at all the things that I wanted to do. And so I slept on my friend's couch. It was like a safe haven for me. A, I can save. B, I can have a crack at working and doing work experience. And I have got to find my way into full-time employment. And actually, it didn't take two years because I quit college. I was like, this ain't going to work for me. I went working full-time. And after like... a bunch of work experiences I had a bunch of job offers and I was like oh this is magic like I'm gonna go into one of these well I want to find out about all of that next but first I want to hear your third track today what's next for a summer what good timing talking of me in my teens okay so the next one is Robin S show me love banger try not to dance when you hear this song and I have such memories because clubbing was such a part of our lives like the club was like church peak club scene as well and we were going out to me it was like a magical time no phones right so you just you would dance until your clothes went like see-through and you didn't give a and you know what we didn't even care about what we wore there was no like it was completely free and easy and unabandoned like fun and this song for me like just sums it all up and also the intro was really good because there's like an extended version so like if you couldn't find your mates you'd be going around in the intro being like where's she at where's she at what's it there's you you you and you'd gather all your mates and then you'd get to the dance ones to bring everyone together to the dance people like bring them all together and then like it would drop and it would just be like stop it it was so good this song to me this song is like the best thing ever

Emma Grede17:14

He's like peak.

Emma Grede17:15

Hey, Krubson and we

Emma Grede17:25

Definitely.

Speaker 317:29

There was no like

Emma Grede17:45

Speed up.

Emma Grede17:50

So to bring it to the

Emma Grede17:51

And it's gotta get down because it's gotta go big.

Emma Grede17:55

Yeah, yeah.

Emma Grede17:57

Fix that.

Speaker 318:21

Pay more than my share.

Speaker 318:27

Tired of giving my

Presenter18:31

Robin S and show me love. So Emma Greed, as you mentioned, you dropped out of London College of Fashion before the end of your first year. Why?

Presenter18:40

What a loser. You know, I just couldn't make the money work, you know. I had to get in the club, I had to like buy champagne, you know, all the things. I do remember doing the sort of mental mathematics, going, all right, how much am I going to make if I do this college course and then have to go into a job versus how much am I going to make if I leave now? And I was like, same thing. I'm still going to have to start at the bottom. And I was like, let's just shortcut it, go in now, just start working. So that was what you did, and a series of unpaid internships, including landing at a luxury concierge company. I mean, it sounds like quite a rarefied world that you were moving in. How did I find? It's so, so random. The story is: I worked at a clothes shop, met a guy. The guy was trying to do a return for something he hadn't bought in the shop. And he's like, if you do this return for me, I'll invite you to some fancy party. I was like, I don't want to go to the party. Where do you work? And he said, I work at Quintessentially. I said, get me an internship. And so he did. So that's a sort of, again, another bit of an unlock moment. This is a different one. It was a huge unlock because I was sitting there with, you know, like these absolute Tufts that were so nice to me. It was unimaginable. Like, I was like, they're going to hate me because of the way that I speak. And I got there and I was like the most popular person in the office, but they'd just started this company. And so for me, it was this insane opportunity where like crazy stuff was happening. And yes, you'd have to unpack a box and then they'd be like, Emma, darling, we're hosting an event tonight on behalf of David Hockney. Could you come and like be there? And I'd be like, what? Like, I couldn't even understand that that was an opportunity that would be given to me. And in the end, when they offered me a job, I was like, I kind of want to work in fashion. Like, this isn't really what I want to do, but I really need the money. And you did move into fashion. You moved to a company that produced fashion shows. Oh, yeah. Did you feel like you were living the dream? I literally felt like I was living the dream because to me, that proximity to

Emma Grede19:01

See you.

Emma Grede19:11

Yeah.

Emma Grede19:14

Yeah.

Speaker 219:15

Ah

Speaker 219:35

It's a different world.

Speaker 219:38

The guy was

Emma Grede19:45

Nicole, like I said

Emma Grede20:14

This is a

Emma Grede20:20

Oh yeah.

Emma Grede20:22

Did I

Presenter20:26

Those types of people that were creative, and you're talking about like the glory days of British fashion, right? Vivian Westwood, Alexander McQueen, Julia MacDonald, Matthew Williamson, all of these designers. Now, I was laying the wood for the catwalks that everybody would step on for the show that I wasn't invited to, but that didn't matter to me because I was like, you are in it, you were making contacts, and I fundamentally started to understand the way the business worked. I was like, well, what's happening at these shows? They're selling the clothes. On one side is the press, on the other side are the buyers. And because I'm nosy, curious, we call it in business, I just ask people loads of questions. Fashion is a business where you know a lot of businesses will fail. Were you seeing that and thinking, okay, I'm learning. I was seeing so much of it. I was really dismayed actually by the lack of money. Turns out, like, some of these people that perhaps, you know, owned certain companies were making all the money, but certainly wasn't the British fashion designers that were invoked. And it wasn't trickling down to you, either. It certainly wasn't. There was just no money. And I really had a fixation on the fact that I didn't want to be poor. And I had equated the fact that more money would mean more power for me, more decision-making, more freedom. And so I just kept going and going and going and trying to understand where is the money? Like, where are people making money? And that's how I landed actually in the sponsorship division at that company. I can see how those brands see a benefit from the association with the designer and where the money actually goes. And so that started my business almost as a marketeer and the idea of what it meant to create these partnerships between brands and designers, between brands and artists, and the underpinnings of what a commercial relationship looks like. And you realize at that point that you've got a real knack for that. You are a really good saleswoman. Yeah, she's got the gift of the gab. And you know what? I learned what negotiation was about because I think that where I came from, it was like, let's try to get the most money for the least amount of work. And I was like, that isn't it. The thing is to have two parties that find something mutually advantageous where everybody believes they won. And if I can be the middleman that leaves you the the brand and you, the designer, both feeling like you won in the negotiation, then my job is done. And you were happy to advocate for yourself right from the beginning. You actually left the company you were working at after being refused a pay rise. Now lots of people, especially women, feel uncomfortable asking for what they're really worth.

Emma Grede20:50

Was that what

Emma Grede21:04

I'm thinking, okay, I'm learning.

Emma Grede21:16

Anyone?

Emma Grede21:18

It certainly was

Emma Grede21:30

More to say

Speaker 222:01

Yeah.

Presenter22:43

What made you able to do that? Well, you know, it's so interesting because when you're in a job where you see the money, meaning you bill, you see the percentage that's coming to the company, you understand the flow of how it works, it becomes really obvious. This wouldn't happen if it weren't for me. So it was like I had no problem with attributing my value and my work into what was being made. And I think that's the first part that women often don't do because they'll attribute it to everything else but themselves. The circumstance, the climate, the thing that happened before them, the reputation. Like, so no, no, no, no, no, center yourself. Emma, it's time for your next disc, your fourth choice to do. What are we going to hear? So, my next song is Ryuchi Sakamoto, Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence. I used this in my wedding, which was just such an amazing. I wish I could just go and get married again, actually, as I think about this. But it is just the most beautiful piece of music. And I'm a little bit of a frustrated, non-instrument-playing person. And so, in my head, when I'm listening to this, it's me on the piano, which is like I have zero musical talent whatsoever, so it's not possible. But that's how I imagine it. And I just think it is the most beautiful thing. And I use this like in meditations, and I think about my wedding day, and I just love it. I love it so much.

Presenter24:31

Riuichi Sakamoto and Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence. So that was used at your wedding to Jens Greed. You met him, a Swedish businessman, and it was business at first for the two of you, wasn't it? Absolutely. So a friend had arranged a meeting between the two of you. He was with a marketing company called the Saturday Group. What was your pitch to him? Because you were pitching to him, I think. Again, I had nothing to lose. I'd left this job that I was at, and I'd heard that these guys were doing really interesting things and they had this little agency. And so I went in with all the chat like I would anyway. I was like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to build this company. The company's going to be amazing because I genuinely felt like I would. It turns out I did. But at that time, I had nothing. All I had was my reputation. With that, there was enough there for them to say, This is somebody that we should invest in. And then I just hustled. I got on the phone. I drummed up business. I started from scratch. It was just me for about four months. Then I got an assistant. Then I hired somebody, and the company just grew and grew and grew and grew. So I had, you know, offices in New York, in LA, in Paris. It was just, it was so crazy now. I look back on it, but it was my naivety that actually was my single best thing. That and my work ethic. So Jens obviously saw your business vision. And what about the two of you? At what point did you realize that there was more to that relationship? I loved him immediately, but that wasn't appropriate. It was clear that I loved him because he wrote the offer on a piece of paper in my Mooji notebook that I still have to this day. So I like kept it like a you know sap. You know, it was very difficult because I understood that Jens and his business partner were really so instrumental in me being able to make a success of what was going to become my first company. And so there was that part of it. But then I also just was like falling in love. And so over, you know, the next kind of year, that happened and it was wonderful. So you founded your first company, ITB, independent talent brand, and you were an early adopter of social media and really very quickly understood the power of Influence. How did you, how do you explain that power to the unconverted? Having started from the very beginning was a real advantage because I worked on celebrity partnerships, traditional celebrity partnerships, where you would get, you know, Michael Kane or Natalie Portman, Angelina Jolie, into a campaign with a big brand. And what happened is the influence, meaning the ability to influence people to buy things, started to shift from all of those names we knew to a bunch of names that we didn't know because the internet was making people famous who had never had an opportunity before. And so for me, what happened is instead of doing these big giant deals, we started doing a volume of like lots and lots of smaller deals. So we still worked for the same clients, L'Oreal, Calvin Klein, HM, but we were booking hundreds of talent. These people are far more relatable. We didn't call them influencers then, they were bloggers. You're gonna, they're gonna create these sort of like little micro-communities. And so if you had a brand that were trying to get to a fly fishing community, you could use the internet to do that. And I just saw that. I was like, this is going to be huge. And more than that, it was cheap. So if you had a brand you couldn't afford Natalie Portman, you could say, Do you know what you can have instead? And that was part of me as a wheeler dealer, part of me as a deal maker, but really seeing into the future and clearly understanding that nobody owned that territory because none of these people had agents, managers, publicists. You were dealing with their mum or their boyfriend. I'm amazing with both mums and boyfriends, by the way. So I'd be like, hi, your daughter's amazing. And I wonder if I can pay her like $5,000 to do this thing. And it was like the Wild West, but I created an entire business. I was like, let's go. As you say, it grew really quickly. But obviously, the tricky thing about that is that as your successes get bigger, so do your failures. And obviously, not everything works. You opened a branch of ITB in LA and that didn't work out. How did you respond? How do you respond when things don't go to plan? I'm not going to lie and say I just dusted it off. I think what I did really quickly was understood that it wasn't about me alone. And also look at. At the bigger picture here, because actually, what it did was set me up for Good American to be hugely successful because I understood where I went wrong. I understood what LA was. What I always want to say, specifically to women, is when you internalize messages about what you've done and where you've failed, and you chalk them all up to being only about you, you do yourself a massive disservice because it's never about one thing. So, you've got to have some distance from a situation to say what actually happened here, and what was because of me, and what was because of other stuff. And then you can figure it out and you just move on. We'll find out where that journey took you after this next track. What is it? Disc number five. Talking of LA, I mean, I, first of all, I'm a huge rap fan. And when I first ever went to LA, so I went when I was about 12 years old because my aunt was a nanny for some celebrity, and we got to stay in his house while he was away. I don't think he knew. And I learned two things.

Emma Grede24:42

Absolutely.

Speaker 225:45

Right the two

Emma Grede25:49

Um

Emma Grede25:58

So I like kept

Emma Grede26:12

Yeah.

Emma Grede26:29

Oh really?

Emma Grede27:13

So we

Emma Grede27:49

Mm-hmm.

Emma Grede28:04

Yeah.

Emma Grede28:09

Uh

Speaker 328:09

But obviously.

Speaker 328:14

And obviously not

Speaker 328:18

Yeah.

Presenter29:28

Tupac and Warren G. And it was like, to me, in my life, was like the birth of the West Coast rap scene. And this song has been in my life, like ever since. It's Regulate Warren G. And Warren G had such a beautiful face. I just loved him. I just like, I literally loved him so much. I still love him. Yeah.

Speaker 329:47

Hell no.

Presenter29:47

It was a clear black night, a clear white moon. Warmer G was on the streets, trying to consume some scourge for the E, so I And get some phones rolling in my ride. I'm chillin' out Just hit the east side of the LBC On a mission tryna find Mr. Warren G Seen a car full of girls, ain't no need to tweak all of you

Emma Grede30:06

So I hooked select on 2-1 and Lewis. Some brothers shooting dice, so I said, let's do this. I jumped out the rock and said, what's up?

Presenter30:16

Warren G and Nate Dog Regulate.

Presenter30:21

So Em agreed. Your career was thriving, but alongside all of that, you also wanted to start a family. How easy was it for you to decide that it was the right time?

Presenter30:30

It's something that I talk about a lot actually because you know the idea of when to start a family or if to start a family as the case might be for so many people is something that really plagues women. Like I feel like I spent my entire 20s just trying not to get pregnant and then when I had my third and fourth kid I was like it's not even my choice. Like number one and two I had like literally you know like so easily like the dream scenario decided to get pregnant was pregnant. When it came to the third and fourth kid I really really struggled and you know had issues with infertility and it's so heartbreaking when you go through that but the decision for me was easy because I had a really supportive partner. Like Jens is Swedish and Swedish men are the whole society like Sweden is a really matriarchal society and there was never this thing of like I'm gonna have a baby. It was like we and our family have made a decision to have children and I always knew that I was gonna have a real partner in that. The day I had Gray, I'd never even been more ambitious. This is your first son. Because I literally was like, oh, now I know what I'm doing this for. It's not even all about me. Now you've got somebody to show things to and hand things down to and it all kind of made sense to me. Not once did I ever think that I would need to sacrifice who I was because I'd become a mum. I was like, oh, like being a mum is actually going to make me so much better because I'm just going to be like smarter and more decisive and more clear with my time. And I think all of that has been true for me. And the whole family went on the journey with you. I mean, literally, you relocated from London to LA. Can you believe it? I mean, how does it feel as an East London girl to be raising American kids? You always imagine your kids are going to be like little versions of you and mine are nothing like me. They are so chill, like so chill. It's like California A, like kids, like so. I'm like, come on, come on, come on, come on. Faster!

Emma Grede31:45

Uh

Emma Grede32:09

And

Presenter32:31

I remember getting to LA and watching some woman that worked for me stand up from her desk and walk to the printer and I was like, I'm not going to be able to live here. She's just too slow. No, but my my kids are different and you know what I've realized is that I can't manufacture hardships for them, right? Like I can't go out of my way to create obstacles because they are

Emma Grede32:48

And I talked about it.

Presenter32:52

Living a very, very different life to the reality of how I was raised. And so I used to really torture myself. How can I like a bunch of kids who were raised in Belair? Like, I'm never going to enjoy them. And the truth is that they are amazing and they're just their own people and they're entirely separate from me. So, Emma, in 2016, you launched a denim brand called Good American and you co-founded it with Chloe Kardashian. It was your idea initially. What was the opportunity that you'd identified? Having worked in this brand partnership landscape, there was so much performance happening. You know, people would cast, you know, a campaign so it looked super diverse. They would, you know, bring in models of all different sizes. And the reality is, none of the clothes actually worked for them. And the plus-size business, you know, specifically in America, I think the statistic is that 68% of women are technically plus-sized. And, you know, the average height of women is 5'4. Well, all clothes are cut on a 5'6 model. And when I started doing my research, I was like, well, who made the rules? Well, guess who made the rules? Like a bunch of dudes who don't wear the clothes. And so I understood within that that there was an opportunity to create something that would cater to different types of bodies. And, you know, when we started Good American, I never imagined what happened with that company. Because it was what it meant to people, I think. It was that people felt seen, heard, and represented. We were the first people to, if you chose a size 14, you could see it on a size 14. Because guess what? It doesn't look like it looks on a size 4. And it was a huge hit, as you say. You and Chloe were both very successful with that. And then in 2019, her sister Kim approached you and Jens to launch the shapewear brand Skims. I mean, what's it like collaborating with a family whose every move makes tabloid headlines? Well, you know, there's pluses and minuses to any of these things. And I think at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the product. You can have a shortcut to a customer, meaning you can market and get the attention and the audience of that individual. But if you sell them a bad product, all that you've got is a microphone for what isn't working. And the problem and the beauty of the internet meant there's this whole new way to reach customers, but there was a whole new way to amplify customers' voices when they were dissatisfied. So we were lucky because, like, we were pleasing people, but there's a double-edged sword, right? The minute you get something wrong, the internet will go absolutely mental. Let's have some more music, I'm agreed. Your sixth choice today, what's next? You know, like music does things to you. So, if Warren G kind of takes me back, and if Robin S like just gives me like this, like, throw your hands up in the air, this song is so soothing to me because it's like a lullaby for adults. Like, I feel like somebody is like rubbing my head and telling me it's going to be all right. When this music comes in and the strings come in, like, you could cry. I could cry even thinking about it. It is Stand By Me, Benny King, and I think it is.

Emma Grede32:53

To the reality.

Emma Grede34:07

Because it was what it meant.

Emma Grede35:10

Yeah.

Presenter35:39

Beauty.

Speaker 335:42

When the night

Presenter35:44

Yeah.

Emma Grede35:44

Has come.

Emma Grede35:47

And the land is dark.

Emma Grede35:50

And the moon

Emma Grede35:52

Is the only light we'll see?

Emma Grede35:58

No, I won't.

Emma Grede36:00

Feel free, oh I won't

Emma Grede36:04

Be afraid.

Emma Grede36:06

Just a norm

Emma Grede36:08

As you stand.

Emma Grede36:10

Yeah.

Presenter36:10

Then bye.

Presenter36:12

Benny King and Stand By Me. Emma Greed, in recent years you've decided to start growing your public profile on TV as an investor on Dragon's Den. You were also the first black woman as an investor on the US equivalent Shark Tank and you've written a book and launched a podcast. Why did you decide to step out from behind the scenes like that? Even as you say it, like you made the decision, it was almost like the decision was made for me. Because what happens when you become successful, people start to write your story. There was almost like this imagined shortcut that I turned up in America, switched on a light and went, hello, like, here's me, the billion-dollar baby. And I was like, people don't understand that. I've had a job since I was 12 years old. And I almost felt like I was kind of doing a disservice, especially to young women who were like, I want to be like her. I want to work with celebrities. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, because there was years before that of grafting and toiling and making mistakes and building and failing. And so here's what it actually took. And I think specifically because we're in such a social media landscape now, the way that everything is kind of boiled down into these 30-second clips, I've watched some of them about me and I'm like.

Emma Grede37:11

Uh Records.

Speaker 237:19

Doesn't that?

Presenter37:21

Who's that chick? I wish

Presenter37:24

Do you know what I mean? So, in my own way, I thought it will be way more useful, specifically to women, to demystify the idea that I wake up in the morning, roll out of bed, that my hair is done, that my children are done, you know, I've taken them all to school and done all the things, and I'm like, ta-da! Because it's like my life is a series of trade-offs, and the way that I work is there's so many sacrifices within all of that. I mean, the book obviously is connected with people, hugely successful. It was interesting the way that some elements of the press have picked up on something you said about motherhood: that you're a max three-hour mom.

Emma Grede37:24

Thank you.

Emma Grede37:48

That was

Emma Grede37:52

It was interesting

Emma Grede37:56

Yeah.

Presenter37:59

Did they misinterpret the point that you were making? No, no, they didn't. They wish they misinterpreted it because what everybody wants you to do is go, No, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean that. I'm like, I love my children and I want to spend every waking hour with them. I do and I don't. Of course, I love them, but I also didn't like pop out kids and turn into some other version of myself. I'm still me. Like, you don't become me and then suddenly be like, oh, do you know what? I just want to stay at home and like trad wife it. I don't. I love my kids, but I don't love Legos. Plenty of people feel that way. They just don't want to say it because the bad mum connotations are too much to deal with. And I refuse to accept that. I refuse to say that actually, because I go out and I work really hard and I have an amazing relationship to work and I really, really love what I do. That doesn't mean that I'm not equally a fantastic parent. And so I thought, do you know what would be better? Instead of me like lying to everyone, just tell the truth and talk about the help that you have honestly. Because I'm like, of course, I have four kids. I have loads of money. Of course, I have nannies. I'm not hiding them. Like, they are there.

Emma Grede38:33

Do you have a

Presenter39:04

All the time. And you're happy to have the conversation. I mean, what about the debate that sparked when you said that working from home is career suicide? That work-life balance is the employee's responsibility. You would have thought that I'd killed somebody. I was telling the truth of my experience, which is to say that what has worked for me is proximity to incredible people that have been able to help me. What's worked for me is visibility, being in an office where people could see how I move and they could say, Do you know what? She's great and we're going to work with her, invest in her, give her business. What's worked for me is to be really honest about the fact that post-COVID, and I know that people really enjoyed the freedom that working from home and the flexibility that they gave them, which I give in all of my companies and expect for myself. I leave the office every day at 5 p.m., every single day, without fail.

Speaker 239:11

It's not working.

Presenter39:53

But to imagine that some of that doesn't come with a trade-off, that you can still expect an incredible career without incredible effort is just not true. And I understand that working from home and having that flexibility is so incredibly important, specifically for women. But let's have an awareness of what we're trading off. Okay, Emma, it's time for some more music. It's disc number seven. What have you chosen? It's Oasis Morning Glory. As an English girl that grew up when I grew up, Oasis was just it. I could have chosen so, so many people. Did you see them live recently?

Speaker 340:27

Did you see the ma

Presenter40:29

Okay, can I tell you? Of course I did, but I saw him in LA. Biggest mistake of my life. And this is like one of the trade-offs, like a board meeting. So I couldn't get back to England to like come to one of the shows here. And all my friends were going and I had the tickets and I'd done the sweep, had the whole thing ready, couldn't do it. So I was like, just a manoruma, you'll go in LA. So I went with like all my best English things.

Presenter40:51

It just wasn't the same. It was amazing, but it wasn't what I'd seen on the Tinternet. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's 100,000, just everyone singing. And so that annoyed me a little bit. But still, me and my darling friend, Jamie Girdler, we sang for two hours. We swear. You were representing the UK. Oh, was I? I was like waiting for everyone else just to sing Wonder Wars like you losers. But anyway, this song, I just love this song so much.

Emma Grede40:56

Everyone

Emma Grede41:06

You would represent in the UK.

Emma Grede41:08

I was out waiting for

Presenter41:16

Need a little time to wake up

Speaker 341:19

Need a little time to wake up, wake up Need a little time to wake up

Speaker 341:26

Need a little time to rest your mind. You know you're shut, so I guess you might as well

Speaker 341:37

What's the story running glory where?

Presenter41:43

Oasis and Morning Glory. So Em agree, the through line in your story has, I think, been self belief. You had it from the beginning, but do you think it's something that you can grow, that anyone can cultivate?

Presenter41:57

Yes and no. You know, it's something that, like anything else, you have to work on it because you've got to teach yourself.

Presenter42:06

What type of person you want to be. I think we're all in training to become the type of person that we want to be eventually. And so you have to be deliberate about it. And so often I think I found myself in my life just like,

Emma Grede42:12

Yeah.

Presenter42:18

Behaving the way that I'd like to feel. Like, you know, I'm not a gym person, but I want to look like one, so I just got.

Emma Grede42:25

Yeah.

Presenter42:27

You know? And you mentioned your vision statement for each decade of your life. I mean, you've still got a while to go, but you did say that you'd started working on your vision for your 50s. Yeah, I think that's what I've done. Well, you know, my fifties, I always thought about being in a position because, again, I come from a family where everybody worked a job to pay the bills, right? Like nobody worked in some passion or like something that they felt like, you know, was their purpose. And I feel like, goodness me, like, what a

Emma Grede42:30

For each decade.

Emma Grede42:37

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter42:55

joy to be in a position where

Presenter42:58

I mean, I don't even need to go to work, right? I go there because I absolutely love it. I love the people. I love the smell of the place. I love the work. I love the culture I've created. And so there's a sense of responsibility, right? Because when I come back to England, I feel really kind of indebted to the place that gave me so much as a kid that, you know, somehow there's like some.

Emma Grede43:09

Because when I

Presenter43:20

Some way that I could be impactful and use the success that I've had to actually do something that actually makes a difference. And thinking back to that little kid, to little Emma making those pack lunches, what would you think of all that you've done if you could see it? You know, I would be so proud of me. You know, when you're little, you're like, oh, you know.

Presenter43:42

I just want to make all my dreams come true. Like, I literally feel like I do that every day, and I do it with so much heart. Do you know what I mean? It's like every day, I'm really a thoughtful person. I like to make like a perfect cup of tea, and I like to see things looking beautiful in my office. And I like to have a good meeting, and I like to leave people feeling like, oh, that was like a good use of two hours of my time. Do you know what I mean? And so, if you put the maximum amount in, effort, attention,

Presenter44:12

Care, kindness, like whatever it might be, like you're bound to get that back. That's just the way the universe works, right? And so I feel like if I keep doing that, then that's just what's going to come back to me. Well, this leads me to your island experience because I think you're going to relish it and you're going to give it your. Imagine I would be setting that island up. We'd be making something. What are you picturing? I think you'll be there, like you'd be building, you'd be getting. 100%. It would be like an industrial megaplex by the time I'm finished. So what do you think will be the biggest challenge on the island? You will be totally on your own, fending for yourself. How do you think you'll get on? Well, we know I can do that. Like that part's easy. I think that the hardest part for me.

Emma Grede44:33

What you

Presenter44:57

You know, what a waste. I'm such a good chow. Yeah.

Presenter45:01

Yeah, that energy, that firecracker. Yeah, you know, it's so funny because I'm such a person who thrives around other people.

Speaker 345:01

Yeah, that energy, that

Emma Grede45:02

Buy a car.

Presenter45:08

Well, we'll let you take one more track with you before you go. It's your final choice, Emma Greed. What's it gonna be? I am obsessed with Adele. I love her so much. You must have met her out in LA as well. Coursebabes are like best mates. No, we are not best mates, but I have met her a couple of times. But she'll be like, hi, Emma.

Emma Grede45:19

Yeah.

Emma Grede45:20

So we are

Emma Grede45:22

Met her a couple of times.

Presenter45:26

So exciting. I have hung out for her at party, and I sat next to her and I was like, this is so cool because I'm chatting to Adele. But she knows I was thinking that because I was really drunk. Anyway, so I love her. I'm a humongous fan. But this particular version of the song is like so me because it's Adele, but it's like a drum and bass remix, which again, when I was a kid, that scene of sort of like jungle, house, garage, like those unmistakably British music was like such a massive part of my upbringing. And of course, I chose Hometown Glory because I'm in my hometown.

Emma Grede45:27

Sorry, I

Speaker 346:01

I like it in the city when the air is so thick and no pain I love it to see everybody in the short skirts, shorts and shavings I like it in the city when two worlds alive get the people and the

Presenter46:29

Adele and Hometown Glory, the high contrast remix. So Emma Greed, it's time to cast you away to your desert island. I'm giving you the books to take along with you. You can have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one other book of your choice. What's that gonna be? Okay, so the book that I chose is The Prophet by Kahilge Bran. And you can imagine that for me, I really wasn't brought up.

Presenter46:52

Like with any kind of spirituality or religion specifically, I certainly wasn't like exposed to poetry or literature in like a big way. And so this was given to me by my uncle's girlfriend who, you know, she was just the most beautiful thing. She looked like Bridget Bardot, and I thought she was so beautiful. And she was like, really hippie, and she like did, you know, tarot cards, and she was just so so cool. And it was just really formative for me because I never heard some of the ideas that were presented in that book. The one that I think about now is.

Presenter47:29

When he writes on children, like your children are not your children, they're the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you. And even as I speak and I think about my kids, I think, oh my god, like how crazy that that could be written. And that sat in me. And at the time, I was such a kid, I was like, Yeah, mum, like, I am not, you know, like from you, I'm not of you. I just am my own thing. And, you know, it's actually kind of amazing to think how writing can be so timeless like that. And words have a way of doing that. Like, I could be like so transported by a song or a book. And that was one of the things that for me was like lifted me out of where I was in Plaster and made me think, like, oh, there's so much more stuff in the world. It's going to take you out of yourself on the desert island too. Yeah, can you imagine? I'll be like right wherever I need to be.

Presenter48:19

Perfect choice. You can also have a luxury item. What's that going to be? I have a little confession to make on this one. So, my darling friend Christopher Aspinall, who is exceptionally excited for me to be on this show because he listens to every single episode. His luxury item was so good. I'm nicking it. His was slightly different, so I'm just building on it. His was a mattress, and what I really want is the mattress and clean sheets as like one. Like beautiful, you know, high-thread count, Egyptian cotton, white.

Presenter48:52

Pressed, don't give me any out the tumble dryer. I want them like sharp. Do you know what I mean? Like clarities, fresh, like

Presenter49:00

Pressed sheets. Can I have like as many as I want? Yeah, you can. So I just want like an infinite supply of clean sheets and a mattress of very high quality.

Emma Grede49:03

Yeah, he does.

Presenter49:09

It's yours. What a fabulous luxury. Well done, do you? Thank you. And finally, which one of these eight discs would you save from the waves first if they began to be washed away? It's a really unfair, rude question. That's why we ask it last. I am going to go.

Emma Grede49:11

Thank you.

Emma Grede49:20

That's why

Presenter49:24

For stand by me. Okay, that's interesting. So you're going for the song that's soothing, that you said was like a lullaby.

Presenter49:30

Yeah, I'm going to do that because that song is full of heart. And I think at the end of the day, you know, when you think about like, what do you always need? What do you always want? What do you come back to? That song to me is like very, very heart full. And so I'll take that one. Perfect choice. Em agreed. Thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you. What a joy.

Presenter50:08

Hello, it was lovely chatting to Emma and I hope she has a great night's sleep on our island in those freshly pressed sheets. There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to. We've cast away many other fashion leaders over the years including Stella McCartney, Vivian Westwood and Paul Smith. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Discs website. The studio managers for today's programme were Steve Greenwood and Never Missyan. The production coordinator was Susie Roylands and the editor was Mugabe Turia. The producers were Hannah Hufford and Christine Pavlovsky. Join me next time when I'll be casting away the neurologist Professor Dame Pamela Shaw.

Emma Grede51:14

This Cultural Life from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 251:17

I will never go into anything so deep like that again.

Emma Grede51:19

The world's leading artistic figures reveal their creative influences. Disobey, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson, and my recent guests have included the sculptor Anish Kapoor, photographer Annie Liebovitz, the actor Kristin Scott Thomas,

Speaker 251:33

It has made me good at telling stories about people who have a secret suffering.

Emma Grede51:38

And former children's laureate Frank Cottrell-Boyce. If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say: look, this is your world, it's insane.

Emma Grede51:48

Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds.