Sir Roger Deakins

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the cinematographer Sir Roger Deakins. He's arguably the greatest and most influential cinematographer alive. His extraordinary 50-year career has shaped the evolution of modern cinema. 1984, Sid and Nancy, The Shawshank Redemption, 1917, Fargo, Skyfall and Blade Runner 2049 all bear the hallmarks of his artistry behind the camera. He's known as the Master of Light and his talents have been acknowledged with a knighthood, five BAFTAs, two Oscars and 14 more nominations. But his passion for cinema began a world away from the glamour of Hollywood in the sleepy seaside town of Torquay. After losing his mother at a young age, he was desperate to avoid the job in a bank that his teachers had suggested when he applied to art school. He says, I could never have imagined having such a rich life when I was 10 years old and thinking life's a bitch. You don't give up because life leads you on a path. If you take the opportunities, it's amazing what can happen. Sir Roger Deakins, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Roger Deakins1:46

Thank you. Thank you. You've said it all right there, haven't you? Yeah.

Presenter1:48

There are you.

Presenter1:49

Well, listen, we've got a lot to talk about today, Roger, especially your attitude to your job, because there's a contradiction at play with you, isn't there? You describe yourself as quite a private, not very confident person, not much of a people person. But there you are on set leading huge teams on gigantic projects. How easy has it been to find your groove in doing that, to kind of find a way to own that?

Speaker 12:02

But

Roger Deakins2:14

I've always felt most confident when I've had my eye to the eyepiece of a camera.

Presenter2:19

Your wife James, who works with you today, once said that looking through the lens removes you from reality, Roger. Is that something you agree with?

Roger Deakins2:27

Yeah, you're you're you're escaping in a way. The reality is is now through the lent it's slightly distanced maybe. Maybe you're a bit of a voyeur and and the rest of the world disappears. You know, it is. There's a s a certain yeah, distance, I suppose, from what you're looking at.

Presenter2:37

Um

Speaker 12:40

Yeah.

Presenter2:44

A sense of protection, even though it might be illusory. So how do you deal with nerves on set then? I mean, you have said that you feel terrified when you first walk onto a film set.

Roger Deakins2:46

Even though it might be illusory.

Roger Deakins2:55

I do. It's new people and a new situation. Until I get comfortable with the people, I I find it very difficult. But but on the other hand, if you didn't feel stressed and you didn't feel that kind of pressure,

Presenter2:59

Yeah.

Roger Deakins3:09

Then I don't think you'd be trying to do your best, you know.

Presenter3:12

It means you don't care.

Roger Deakins3:13

Yeah,'cause that's what it's about.

Presenter3:13

Yeah.

Roger Deakins3:16

I want to feel in myself that I've done something that I feel is part of me, you know.

Presenter3:22

Yeah. And to what extent are you thinking about the audience and your responsibility to them when you're working?

Roger Deakins3:31

I'm not directly thinking of the audience at all. I'm thinking about the story and I'm thinking about the director's needs and wants for the story. And I kind of see around me a lot of images that are purely eye candy. They're not really servicing the story anymore. They're just kind of there because they're their own individual beauty or something.

Presenter3:54

So you've got to beware of an aesthetic then?

Roger Deakins3:56

I think so, yes.

Presenter3:58

And do you

Roger Deakins3:58

I think there's a danger in that, is get carried away in a sort of camera move or a certain kind of glossy sort of lighting. And that's not necessarily what you'd you know, is best for the story.

Presenter4:04

Mm.

Presenter4:11

And let's go back to that idea of the eye to the lens, because that's very literal for you. You like to operate the camera yourself, and I think that's quite unusual rather than handing it over to a camera operator or director. Why does it that work for you? Why do you prefer to do it that way?

Roger Deakins4:29

I just like the connection with what's in front of me. I like to be the one responsible and I'm the one to blame if I don't like the shot. I mean, and I can see the limitations of the lighting and I can work the lighting in balance with the frame and the camera move.

Presenter4:47

Does that mean that you can't work with certain directors? Does it rule certain people out?

Roger Deakins4:51

Yeah, without mentioning names. I've had wonderful interviews and conversations with some directors and at the end we've said, yeah, well, it's not going to work, is it really?

Presenter5:00

I read that that you're quite good friends with Ridley Scott, but this meant that the two of you, you couldn't work together on a project because of the project.

Roger Deakins5:06

Yeah, he was somebody that talked quite a number of times, but that that one particular interview was, yeah, yeah. He was operating at the time, so that was even even more of a

Presenter5:13

Yeah.

Roger Deakins5:18

A rift between the three he was operating and uh

Presenter5:20

Because

Speaker 15:20

He was up.

Roger Deakins5:22

Yeah, and shooting on zoom lenses and yeah, you know, all the things I don't really like.

Presenter5:28

Let's get started then with your first tell us about disc number one.

Roger Deakins5:32

Well, Lennet Cohen I first heard, I guess, when I was a teenager in Torquay, and most of the music, early music I heard was on Radio Luxembourg.

Roger Deakins5:43

Which was very strange because my brother and I we'd come back from school and we'd sit by the radio waiting for Radio Luxembourg. I think the hour of like rock music came on at six o'clock. But before that, it was interesting. There was a a guy called Garner Ted Armstrong would talk about the Apocalypse. It was a religious programme. Well, I mean pseudo-religious.

Presenter6:05

With

Presenter6:09

So you go straight from that to an hour of like Leonardo.

Roger Deakins6:11

Yes, so you know we're talking about the kind of in the middle of the Cold War and we're all worried about being bombed, you know. You turn on the radio and this this this guy is talking about Armageddon starting on the plains of Israel. It was all very bizarre. And then we went into rock music. So I think that's where I probably heard Leonard Cohen for the first time. And the album would have been The Songs of Leonard Cohen. And I think the most well-known track is Suzanne. But I really liked the track One of Us Cannot Be Wrong because it's just so wry and kind of amusing. And yeah, I love the lyrics. I mean I like stories and there's a real story behind this.

Presenter6:13

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter6:16

Yeah.

Speaker 16:39

I'm not sure.

Roger Deakins6:56

Yeah.

Speaker 16:56

I lit a thin green candle.

Speaker 17:01

To make you jealous of me

Speaker 17:07

But the room just filled up with.

Roger Deakins7:09

With mosquitoes

Roger Deakins7:13

They heard that my body was free

Speaker 17:18

Then I took the dust of a long sleepless night And I put it in your lip

Presenter7:26

Leonard Cohen, and one of us cannot be wrong. So, Roger Deakins, you were born in Torquay, Devon, in nineteen forty nine, the youngest of two boys, to William and Josephine. I know that your parents met during the Second World War, so tell me about them. Let's start with your mum. She was a London girl originally, wasn't she?

Roger Deakins7:44

Yeah, I mean I quite honestly don't know that much about her life, but I know she was standing for Ann and Eagle on the West End stage. I know she appeared in a film and she was a model. And I know she met my dad on an army base where there was a p they had a party and they had decided to get married just before my dad went back to the war and he was working under Paddy Main and the SAS and they went went to Germany at the end of the war and then my dad and my mother got married when when he came back.

Presenter8:27

So they settled in in Torquay where you were brought up and and you know I know that your your memories are affected because you you lost her when you were just nine?

Roger Deakins8:35

Yeah, I think I was nine or ten.

Presenter8:37

So what what do you remember of uh your your own memories?

Roger Deakins8:41

I don't remember much. Um

Presenter8:41

Yeah.

Roger Deakins8:43

I remember when she was when I was a bit younger, when she was a little better, you know, she went through stages.

Presenter8:52

She had her mess, didn't she?

Roger Deakins8:54

Yes, she had MS. It was diagnosed actually the year I was born, so that was kind of strange. I don't think there's any connection, I hope not. Anyway, but I remember us going to the beach, and I remember my dad having to carry her to the beach and carry her back to the car at the end of the day. I remember sitting on a bed and drawing dinosaurs, and she used to draw the and paint the birds that came to a feeder that dad had put outside the window so she could have something to look at.

Speaker 19:02

Yeah.

Speaker 19:10

At the

Roger Deakins9:27

Yeah, it was kind of traumatic time really.

Presenter9:30

It must have been tough. It must have been really tough. I mean, and especially as so so she'd been a you know, a model and an actress when she was younger. How much have you found out about that subsequently? Have you seen the film that she was in?

Roger Deakins9:42

No, I I don't want to see it. I kind of like uh I keep seeing photographs of her. There's a very very famous photograph of her taken on a fun fair in South End. Sometimes it's advertised as uh a shot taken at the end of the war and th these girls celebrating, but it apparent I believe it was taken in 1939, just before the war, and she's on this um fun fair ride with her skirt up and she looks like Marilyn Munro, you know.

Presenter10:11

I recognised that image straight away when I saw it when I was doing the research for this programme. I can't believe that's your mum's. So she's kind of on this, it looks like a roller coaster and the wind's blowing her skirt up. She's pushing it down and laughing, but you can kind of see her suspend us. And that picture, as you say, it's become a a a classic image really. Have have you seen it as it popped up in your life?

Roger Deakins10:13

Everyone knows too.

Speaker 110:19

Yeah.

Roger Deakins10:19

Yeah.

Speaker 110:21

Please push now.

Speaker 110:22

But if you talk about it.

Roger Deakins10:24

Yeah.

Roger Deakins10:28

Yeah.

Roger Deakins10:31

Oh yeah, the last well I've seen it since, but one of the times we saw it, we were working on Skyfool up in Glasgow, shooting at the duckside there. And we went for a trip to the coast, had lunch in a pub, and we sat down and right next to us on the pub wall was this photograph of mum. I couldn't believe it. So we see it a lot of places. But otherwise, I don't really know that much about her. And I say the last couple of years of her life, probably, I didn't really see her much at all because she was in bed.

Speaker 111:03

Yeah.

Presenter11:03

Appreciate it.

Roger Deakins11:06

She was really, um

Roger Deakins11:09

Yeah.

Roger Deakins11:10

It was sad.

Presenter11:11

She had a really hard time.

Roger Deakins11:12

She had a real hard time with it. And I think partly because the life she started to have before the war and w what she'd come to, I it's so sad, so sad.

Presenter11:13

Yeah.

Presenter11:20

Hmm.

Presenter11:23

Do you remember about how you coped, how you dealt with what happened?

Roger Deakins11:28

Um

Roger Deakins11:30

Not very well. I think my dad at one time told me later that he thought I they were gonna take me to a specialist, a mental specialist. Yeah, I didn't deal with it very well.

Presenter11:30

No.

Presenter11:38

Yeah, I didn't

Presenter11:40

Yeah, of course not. Were you able to go to her funeral?

Roger Deakins11:45

Uh, it kind of wasn't allowed, I think. Yeah.

Presenter11:50

It's time for your second track. What have you chosen?

Roger Deakins11:53

June Tabor

Roger Deakins11:55

I just love everything she does. So I've chosen a song called Akaba.

Roger Deakins12:02

It's partly it's partly June's voice, it's partly that kind of idea of it's basically about Lawrence of Arabia and the battle of Aqaba, and there's something really haunting about it and the way she sings it.

Speaker 312:19

Out o'er the silent wastes

Speaker 312:23

No friends, no quarter The blood is up, the senses race

Speaker 312:30

At last dawn is breaking

Speaker 112:34

Bring over the sleeping host

Speaker 312:37

Uh

Speaker 112:38

The unsuspecting

Speaker 312:39

Shadows

Speaker 312:42

When Mars a desert ghost, The Pale Ride away

Roger Deakins12:52

Ah, come on.

Roger Deakins12:54

Yeah.

Speaker 112:54

All my life.

Speaker 112:57

Turns on you.

Speaker 113:01

All my life returns to you.

Presenter13:10

Akabar, Junetable. Sir Roger Deakins, you just said to me that that track makes you think of your father, William, and his war story, which is pretty incredible. He was an explosives expert with the Royal Engineers and he served under Lieutenant Colonel Paddy Mayne. Now many listeners will have seen the fictionalised version of him in the BBC's SAS Rogue Heroes. What did your dad tell you about his experiences?

Roger Deakins13:35

He used to tell me stories actually when I was in the bath mainly as a very young kid and he would tell me stories about northern Africa being behind German lines. But I think the most dangerous was that my dad was part of a group that landed in Sicily in the middle of the night to climb the cliffs and blow up the guns and this was before the Allied invasion of Sicily. And he said they blew the guns up and they sat on the cliff tops and watched all these ships coming in. But the most harrowing part, he said, when they were in the landing craft going towards the shore, there was a lot a lot of troops were going to go in by glider and they'd all missed the land. So the sea was kind of crowded with broken wings and dead soldiers that had been

Presenter14:30

Death.

Roger Deakins14:33

Going in by um glider, yeah.

Presenter14:36

So I'm I'm imagining you as a little boy hearing these stories and and wondering what that did for your sense of who your dad was. I mean this mythic kind of

Roger Deakins14:45

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well it it I just think he was one of so many. I mean, he was like early twenties taken from a small town in South Devon and suddenly he's there behind German lines uh in a totally different world, you know.

Presenter14:46

Here uh

Presenter15:00

Uh

Presenter15:03

And w and your relationship, the the two of you, were you close to your dad?

Roger Deakins15:07

Um probably in truth

Roger Deakins15:10

Not so much.

Presenter15:12

Was that just a generational thing, do you think? He's obviously affectionate and wanted to share his stories with you and tell you what he'd seen and what he'd done.

Roger Deakins15:19

What he'd seen

Roger Deakins15:21

I think he was very traditional country man.

Roger Deakins15:26

But I think the whole experience with mother I think was bad. Very difficult. And then he got remarried not so long after my well, it didn't seem like very long after my mother died.

Presenter15:29

Very difficult.

Roger Deakins15:36

And that did not go well.

Presenter15:39

What happened?

Roger Deakins15:41

She was there for about a week and disappeared. I don't know whether it's'cause my brother and I did not like the fact she was in the house. I I don't know. It was not a very nice time.

Presenter15:50

Not great.

Presenter15:52

Your dad must have been under a lot of pressure, so he ran his own business as a builder. How did he manage bringing up the two of you, making ends meet after losing your mum?

Presenter16:04

Um

Roger Deakins16:04

Well, he put himself into his work. I mean, I don't think his business was, you know, hugely successful. It was a little, you know, painting and decorating company, really, and he had a little ironmonger shop. And he put a lot of effort into that. So, yeah, he'd drop us off at school in the mornings, but we might not see him then until eight or nine at night. And especially if I went fishing, because I'd come home from school and just go straight down onto the rocks fishing. You know, that was me.

Presenter16:33

So that was a passion for you from the beginning?

Roger Deakins16:35

Yeah, it might be my way of escaping it all really, you know.

Presenter16:38

Yeah.

Presenter16:39

And I think your dad introduced you to film as well, didn't he?

Roger Deakins16:43

Well, he did it in a strange way. Yeah, this was when I might have been four or five, five or six. Dad had brought back a little projector, I think, from Germany after the end of the war. You know, they all brought things back. And you could rent little reels of cartoons from the local post office. It was really strange. I think they were like nine and a half millimetre reels of you know, there was Popeye and there was Felix the Cat and there was Mickey Mouse, early Mickey Mouse cartoon.

Presenter17:16

So where did you have it set up?

Roger Deakins17:18

Oh, he had it in he had it in the attic of our house when we lived. This was when mum was still alive. In the attic of our little house in Wellswood, which is on the outskirts of Torquay, or was the outskirts then, it's all one thing. But um, yeah, it was a dusty little attic and there was a little wooden ladder that went up to it. It was quite frightening. But um, yeah, we'd watch uh my favourite was Felix the Cat. You know, we watched that reel so many times it was like just made up of splices, I think, because it kept broken in in the projector, yeah.

Presenter17:49

And

Presenter17:52

It's time for some more music, Sir Roger Deakins. Your third choice today. What's it going to be, and why are you taking it to your island?

Roger Deakins17:59

Okay, twentieth century schizoid man.

Presenter18:01

Oh wow. This is going to be a noisy one.

Roger Deakins18:02

This is going to be a noisy one.

Roger Deakins18:04

The Court of the Crimson King. I I think when I first heard this album it really got to me'cause it was kind of the anger and the feeling of the world falling apart. But the and it was so unconventional, the song, at the time, you know. I must have heard it when I was at art college really, because what what year did it come out?

Presenter18:21

How old were you when you you had a moment?

Presenter18:27

It's uh I think late sixties, very late sixties.

Roger Deakins18:30

69, yeah. Well I was I was at art college by then'cause I went to Bath Academy of Art in Cauchom.

Presenter18:30

Yeah.

Presenter18:37

And was that what you felt? That you felt angry, you felt, you know, that things were falling apart?

Roger Deakins18:39

Yeah.

Roger Deakins18:41

Yeah, I mean both personally and in terms of the world, you know, and I think it's really relevant today.

Presenter19:19

King Crimson, twenty first century schizoid man.

Presenter19:23

Now, Roger, after your mum died, I know that your dad moved you and your brother further out of Torquay. Where did you go? Where were you living?

Roger Deakins19:31

tiny little bungalow, but out overlooking Tor Bay, more or less at the time by itself, and now it's surrounded like it could be Florida or something, you know, with great big mansions. But it was a a little bungalow and it was quite a long way from

Speaker 119:40

Yeah.

Presenter19:40

Great.

Roger Deakins19:45

Town

Presenter19:46

How is it for you living out there somewhere so isolated but with amazing views presumably? Yeah, amazing.

Roger Deakins19:51

Yeah, amazing views, and it was really close to the ocean, so I could go fishing in the mornings before school and after. But it was quite a long walk home from school. Dad would drop us off at school, and then we would walk home. It was a pretty wonderful, idyllic place to grow up. But on the other hand, just I think socially it was awkward because I think my dad cut himself off from the rest of the family at that time.

Presenter20:14

Because I

Presenter20:20

Why did you do that?

Roger Deakins20:23

Yeah, I wish I could ask him, but I I you know, it was just I think a reaction to my mother's death and uh

Presenter20:29

Uh

Roger Deakins20:32

Yeah, it was just strange. I've never quite figured it out myself, but it was just like a way of him protecting himself, I I think. But it meant, you know, we were quite isolated and when we were living in Wellswood, I'd go up and help deliver newspapers with a post office or something like that, you know, little things. But um, yeah, then that all dropped away. So I bet I became, yeah, became a bit more of a lonely person then I think.

Speaker 120:32

Yeah, with

Speaker 120:36

Yeah.

Speaker 120:39

Hmm.

Speaker 120:49

Yeah.

Presenter20:49

Uh

Speaker 120:49

Uh

Presenter20:49

Hello.

Speaker 120:49

Yeah.

Speaker 120:54

Yeah.

Presenter20:58

So that interior world is all kind of coming together at this point for you. What about the rest of the time? Did you make friends? People that you knew locally?

Roger Deakins21:04

I did have like a couple of friends that um we would go out drinking at night, yeah, a bit too much drinking, um and uh I had some friends I used to go fishing with, but I I and honestly uh I spent most of my time by myself and preferred it that way, especially when I was fishing.

Presenter21:07

Hmm.

Presenter21:22

And how did you let off steam? You know, you you mentioned the anger that connected you to King Crimson later, but that must have been there since since you lost your mum.

Presenter21:31

How did that impact your your teenage years? You said you were drinking too much.

Roger Deakins21:36

Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't think I've ever become an alcoholic or anything like that, but I I certainly wasn't particularly stable as a kid, no. I was very angry, but it all went interiorly, you know, so yeah, I kind of

Presenter21:41

But I

Speaker 121:42

Yeah.

Speaker 121:45

No.

Roger Deakins21:52

Perceiving insight.

Presenter21:53

Oh, it's even worse in a way though, isn't it?

Roger Deakins21:55

Yeah, really. Kinda I guess obviously now I think, well, if it had been somebody that I could have vented to or something, it would have been maybe different, but no.

Presenter22:04

Um

Presenter22:05

I know that cinema became a a big passion in your teenage years. Was that an escape for you?

Roger Deakins22:11

Yeah, I think that was very much an escape, yeah. There was a little film society opened up when I was, I guess, seventeen, just before I left school. And talking in the winters back then and probably now, it was a very, very quiet place. So I went to this film society with a friend all the time and we would see kind of amazing films like, you know, Alphaville and Last Year at Marriumbad. I think I saw there many, many wonderful films, but particularly Peter Watkins' War Game, which actually really affected me, not only because we were all at the time afraid of the Cold War and a bomb dropping, but just the fact that you could make an angry film like that about kind of a real political social issue like that. I thought that was really phenomenal.

Presenter22:14

Yeah.

Speaker 122:45

Now

Presenter23:00

Wasn't that film banned? How did you see it?

Roger Deakins23:02

It was funny because it was shown at film societies and film clubs for a few months and I actually won an Academy Award for Best Documentary, right? But yes, the BBC banned it and I could see why because the screening in this little it was a gas showrooms and they had a little portable screen and projector, this film club. And these in the front row was two little old ladies who'd come in because it was raining and they thought maybe they'd see something like the sound of music. And halfway through Wargame when the bomb dropped and everything, people get blown away, they fainted, both of them.

Presenter23:41

But what was your reaction? So you're you're behind these two fainting old ladies watching this thinking what?

Roger Deakins23:47

I just thought it was amazing that the what cinema could do, you know, what you could do with, yeah, fictional creation of images like that that give a sense of reality that was so powerful, you know, and and make a comment on the madness of the world, much like King Grimson, you know.

Presenter24:06

Roger Deacons, it's time to go to the music. Your fourth choice today. What's next?

Roger Deakins24:11

Yeah, well this is probably a song that I heard much later in life by Lucinda Williams. I love Lucinda Williams, American folk country rock singer. And this song's called Soldier's Song and it's very much about a wife and kid back home and a soldier at war and their sort of dual realities.

Speaker 124:16

Yeah.

Speaker 124:33

I'm not my enemy.

Speaker 124:40

Baby, speak a little one out to play.

Speaker 124:47

You know what I mean?

Roger Deakins24:47

Shot to my body's down.

Roger Deakins24:54

Baby rides alone

Roger Deakins24:57

There you go round.

Roger Deakins25:02

Yeah.

Presenter25:02

On the post, don't you stand and go?

Presenter25:06

A Soldier's Song, Lucinda Williams. Roger Deakins, you retained the artistic streak that your mum had encouraged in you as a kid, but as I mentioned, your school had other ideas.

Roger Deakins25:17

Career guidance council said but I I should get a a job in a bank locally and I'd do all right because I was quite good at maths and academically I was quite good. But I just didn't want uh a nine to five job. I you know, I was angry. I didn't want to be part of society as I saw it. You know, I was angry, yeah. So I kind of refused to go that direction, didn't know what I was going to do.

Speaker 125:38

You know

Speaker 125:40

Yeah.

Roger Deakins25:46

Spent the summer after school fishing. Dad would say, Oh, university, you know.

Roger Deakins25:53

And by the time I said, Okay, it was too late to apply to university, but there was a chance to apply to art college, the Bath Academy of Art in Cawsham at the time. It's now part of Bath University.

Speaker 126:07

Uh

Presenter26:07

Mm.

Roger Deakins26:08

Yeah, so I got in there and went there for four years. It was really good.

Presenter26:12

And was your dad supportive of that decision?

Roger Deakins26:15

He was. I I do think he thought, well, I would just get it out of my system, the anger out of my system, throw some paint at a wall or something and come back and work work with him on his business. But that was never going to happen.

Presenter26:29

So tell me what did happen. You discovered photography at art school.

Roger Deakins26:33

I did. I mean, I I wanted to paint, I wanted to do fine art, but I didn't know, but they put me in the graphic design programme.

Presenter26:42

Why was that?

Roger Deakins26:43

I've no idea. But I s started taking photographs just to record, you know, objects for design programmes. But then this photographer, Roger Mayne, came to do a few days' teaching.

Presenter26:56

And he was quite well known, so Roger Mayne was the first real.

Roger Deakins26:58

Roger Mayne was the first real street photographer. He's known for doing first photographs of the streets of Notting Hill. And the first thing he said, he said, I can't teach you how to take a photograph. He said, just get out there on the street and do it. So I would hitchhike to Bristol or Bournemouth. You know, I love the seaside. So I remember going to Bournemouth and spent the Saturday and Sunday. I slept on the beach and started taking photographs. And when we got back, I developed them in the dark room. I had a key made for the dark room so I could work in there at night without anybody knowing and bothering me. And we all put all the students in the class put photographs on the wall.

Roger Deakins27:46

And I remember Roger coming over and said, Who took that? He pointed at this photograph, and I I was so embarrassed. I I said, I did. He said, That's almost a perfect photograph. I wish I had had the guts to ask him why almost.

Presenter28:02

What was it? What what was the image?

Roger Deakins28:04

It was an empty beach with a pile of stacked deck chairs, and there was one lonely little figure, an old lady, walking along the shore line. And just the balance was, I thought, really nice. But I wanted to know why it wasn't perfect.

Presenter28:13

Yeah.

Presenter28:19

But you're too shy to ask.

Roger Deakins28:21

Oh well it's

Roger Deakins28:22

I was so blown away that he liked it at all, you know.

Presenter28:26

In 1972, you got a place at the National Film School in Beaconsfield. You'd applied the year before but didn't get in. Why not?

Roger Deakins28:34

When I got rejected I went to London and I met with Colin Young who was the principal who was starting up the film school at the time.

Roger Deakins28:41

And it was very funny because he's sitting in this office, and I'm sheepishly sitting down, and he said, Roger.

Roger Deakins28:49

Your photographs, they're very nice, but they're not cinematic. He said, this photograph is cinematic. On the wall behind him was a shot of a dray horse pulling a beer barrels in a cart. And it was a time shot, so it was slightly soft because of the movement and created this blur. And I said, I don't think that's any more cinematic than my photographs. It's just out of focus. And I mean, you know, it was kind of a casual conversation, but I left thinking, well, I've blown that. But when I was leaving, one of the other teachers that was going to be a teacher at the film school said, apply next year, I think you'll get in.

Presenter29:14

And

Speaker 129:15

Uh Uh

Presenter29:30

All right, Roger, it's time for some more music. I think your fifth choice. What's it gonna be?

Roger Deakins29:35

It's gonna be bat out of hell meatloaf.

Presenter29:37

So what does this track mean to you by AOFL? You loved it at the time.

Roger Deakins29:41

Yeah, I mean it'd be it's also like teenage angst and the album and uh yeah, my wife James and I sometimes we would drive from LA to Wilmington in Carolina for a Huzzah proxy for instance or something like that. Late in the evening we'd put our bat out of hell and turn the volume right up and it was yeah.

Presenter30:02

Yeah.

Roger Deakins30:02

I have a

Presenter30:03

And I mean this is wide screen, isn't it? You talk about cinematic, it's like this is this is cinematic music.

Roger Deakins30:05

But cinematic, it's like

Roger Deakins30:07

This is the

Roger Deakins30:09

It's yeah, it's um rock ennio morricone, isn't it really, you know.

Presenter30:20

Uh

Roger Deakins30:20

Uh

Presenter30:20

Come on in.

Roger Deakins30:26

We don't control.

Speaker 130:29

Hey, hey, let me talk.

Speaker 130:32

I'm not sure.

Speaker 130:35

When the day is dawn and the sun goes down and the moonlight's shining blue cinema

Speaker 130:44

Before the gates of heaven are controlling all

Presenter30:51

Meatloaf and Bat Out of Hell.

Presenter30:55

So, Sir Roger Deakins, you graduated from the National Film School in 1975, and as you were leaving, I heard that you received some advice from a film producer. What happened?

Roger Deakins31:06

Yeah, a film producer who was one of the governors of the film school said.

Roger Deakins31:12

Yeah, you know, really you should apply for a PA job in your local T V station. And and they said asked me where I was from, and uh he said, Well, Plymouth, Plymouth T V. Maybe in uh six or seven years you could work your way up to a sort of camera operator or something.

Presenter31:29

Did you heed his advice?

Roger Deakins31:31

Obviously not. And and it was I think it was only about seven years later I was shooting a film that he was a it was his company that was producing it. So.

Presenter31:42

How did that go down?

Roger Deakins31:44

Well, I never mentioned what he'd said to me but

Presenter31:48

Are you willing to tell us who he was?

Roger Deakins31:51

David Putnam.

Presenter31:53

So he was the producer behind movies like Chariot of Fire, Midnight Express.

Roger Deakins31:57

Yes, yeah. And you know, I I I still to this day, and I never asked him whether he was saying something like that just to kind of stir me up, or actually if he really meant it. I I've no idea, but it made me very angry.

Presenter32:13

So you didn't take David's advice, you moved to London instead. What was your first gig that you got as a cameraman?

Roger Deakins32:21

I was doing like a few little documentaries, little arts programmes, but then I would wander around Soho and knock on doors and try and show people my showreels. And I knocked on one door and this guy said, Yeah, I usually do music videos, but I'm not doing any at the moment. I like your work, but I'm doing an independent feature film. So thank you, but I'll keep you in mind. And before I left, I kind of I don't know why I got the strength to do this, because I'm a very shy, nervous person. I said, well, I'll shoot that.

Roger Deakins32:57

And he thought for a minute. He said, Yeah, okay.

Presenter33:00

So what was it? What kind of phone?

Roger Deakins33:01

It was called Cruel Passion. It was kind of like a bit risque kind of thing. It started so racy. A little racy nowadays. It wouldn't be thought of as anything.

Presenter33:05

So

Presenter33:10

So tell me about starting on that job then, your first feature. What was it like the first day on set?

Roger Deakins33:17

Well, the first day on set, we were shooting on the back lot of Bray Studios, I think it was, in this kind of forest. And I always go to work early. And these two guys turned up and started talking about this ex-film school student who was going to be cinematographer on this film. And who was the director anyway? He'd never done anything. But so why has he got a film school student? He's not going to last more than a day, you know. And they're chatting away and not noticing me. And then one looks around and says, Oh, who are you? And I said, Well, I'm that film school student. I said, Who are you? He said, Oh, I'm the AD, and this is a standby carpenter. So I said, Okay, you're the AD. Can you get a PA to get me some aspirin? And to the carpenter, I said, Can you put a beam up under the ceiling of this set piece so I can hang some lights?

Speaker 133:56

I said, Who are you?

Speaker 134:13

Uh

Presenter34:13

Hmm.

Roger Deakins34:14

And once they left, I went around the back of the set and vomited. I was really sick.

Presenter34:19

Oh, bless you. But that was quite a gutsy reply for you to say that's me that you're talking about. Good for you. Yeah.

Roger Deakins34:22

That's me that you're talking about.

Presenter34:26

And there was another turning point that that followed. In the early eighties, you were working on Michael Radford's film of George Orwell's novel, nineteen eighty four. Now that was an amazing feature, starring Richard Burton as O'Brien, John Hurt as Winston Smith.

Presenter34:41

And I think that was the moment that you started to think of yourself as a cinematographer.

Roger Deakins34:48

Yeah, it was it was the first film that I thought, yeah, I'd found a place where I felt comfortable and

Roger Deakins34:57

Yeah, I mean there was a number of things though. There was a scene on Salisbury Plain that kind of I remember we were taking the corridor of the Ministry of Truth I guess it was taking the corridor to build it on the top of this hill in Salisbury Plain so we could get the view out the door, the door that opens to room 101. And so this was Winston Smith's sort of vision of you know the perfect England. But it was actually sitting with John Hurton and Richard Burton at the lunchtime that I kind of felt just being part of that. I mean Richard Burton is.

Presenter35:38

It was his last screen roll, wasn't it?

Roger Deakins35:39

It was his last screen roll. He just did the final post sync sound just before he died, yeah. He had been on the on the shoot a couple of days, and uh the A D went round during the day to all the crew and said Mr Burton wants to address everybody at the end of the day.

Roger Deakins35:57

And we were all terrified because we thought we'd get abollicking, frankly, because what had we done wrong? And he came out of this little trailer, one was a tiny trailer like Granny would go to the seaside in, you know. And he came out and said, I just want to thank you for a wonderful, wonderful day on set. He said, when I came on the set and saw all such young faces, he said, I was terrified. But you made me so welcome. And he went on to say, I'm so grateful at this stage of my career to work on a project like this with you. And he said, I look forward to tomorrow.

Presenter36:35

I mean, for someone who was and is a nervous person, that must have meant a lot to you to hear that.

Roger Deakins36:40

Well, all of us as well, you know, all of us. Everybody wants to do their best and everybody wants to do justice to a good project, so you're nervous and that's that's only natural.

Presenter36:45

Uh

Roger Deakins36:53

Yeah.

Presenter36:53

All right, Roger, let's have some more music, shall we? Your sixth choice.

Presenter36:58

What is that?

Roger Deakins36:58

Oh, the sixth choice, yeah. The island, Paul Brady. Paul Brady started off singing Irish folk songs basically, but then his work became more and more political. And um this is one of his I find most haunting probably but one also one of his most political songs.

Roger Deakins37:19

It well, it parallels the war in Lebanon with the troubles in Ireland, but it's basically about this guy who wants to go to this island with his girlfriend and just pretend it none of it exists.

Presenter37:31

Perfect track to take to your desert island.

Roger Deakins37:34

It would be.

Presenter37:34

Yeah.

Roger Deakins37:35

Yeah.

Presenter37:35

Uh

Roger Deakins37:36

They say the skies are level burning

Speaker 137:38

Don't let

Roger Deakins37:42

Most mighty cedars beating in the heat

Roger Deakins37:48

That's true.

Roger Deakins37:50

Pictures on television.

Roger Deakins37:54

Women and children dying in the street.

Roger Deakins38:01

Now we're still landed in our own place Still trying to

Presenter38:07

Paul Brady and the Island.

Roger Deakins38:08

Yeah.

Presenter38:09

Sir Roger Deakins, in nineteen ninety one, one of your key creative relationships began, or should I say two of your key creative relationships, on the film Barton Fink, written, directed and produced by the Cohen Brothers. You went on to make twelve films together and you're known as the Third Brother. Why do the three of you make such a good team, do you think?

Roger Deakins38:27

Yeah, that was funny for a while. I mean, they were very kind to credit me with so much of a contribution. But yeah, I don't know. It was funny because the previous film I'd done to Barton Fink, I didn't have a good time. And I basically put my place in London on the market and moved back to Devon. Yeah, I didn't know what I was going to do. Maybe I'll work on the Odd Independent film, but I didn't think I was going to be that much involved anymore. And then the phone rang, and my agent said, you might not be interested. It's a very weird script. It's like two different scripts cobbled together in the middle. And I said, well, who's directing it? And the agent said, Cohen, Cohen Brothers. So I met with Joel and Ethan in Notting Hill, a little cafe in Notting Hill, and was struck that they didn't really talk much, and nor did I. And we got on really well, saying not a lot. And yeah, and then they rang around directors to ask about me.

Presenter38:30

Oh.

Speaker 138:55

Hmm.

Speaker 139:25

Well saying not a lot and uh

Roger Deakins39:32

And the previous director I'd worked with and not had such a good time with said all these things like well, he doesn't like working with multiple units, he likes to work single camera, he doesn't like shooting on zoom lenses, he l always operates the camera himself. These were being said as though they were

Presenter39:51

Negatives.

Roger Deakins39:51

Yeah, derogatory of me, but actually Joel said this was years later, Joel said, Yeah, and we listened, it was everything we wanted out of the cinematographer, so that that's how I ended up in the cafe in Notting Hill.

Presenter40:00

So

Presenter40:04

So that was it, you got the gig. And one of my all time favorite films of yours followed that, O Brother Where Art Thou came out in two thousand. And that was an interesting one from a technical point of view as well. What was the initial brief for that film, the look of that film?

Roger Deakins40:20

Well, they wanted this kind of feeling of a a burnt out landscape, as if it was a hand-tinted postcard kind of thing. And and I said, Well, when when are you going to shoot and stuff? And they said, Well, August. And I we talked about, oh, well, where are you going to shoot? Maybe Arizona or something, I'll be burnt out. They said, No, Mississippi. And I remember saying to Joel,

Roger Deakins40:42

Mississippi in August. Hm, July, August. That's going to be a little bit green and they don't want green.

Presenter40:48

And they don't want green.

Roger Deakins40:49

I said, well, that is the problem.

Presenter40:51

So how did you achieve the luck?

Roger Deakins40:53

So James and I, my wife and I, we looked into the idea of digitising the whole negative, all the negative shot the cut negative, and then timing it that way. And we did some tests and they were pretty awful, but it showed what could be done. And Joel and Ethan said, Yeah, but we'll have a year between when we start shooting and the time the film is released. So maybe the technology will have advanced enough by then that we can make it work. And the worst thing is that we were kind of watching dailies down in Jackson, Mississippi in a theatre every evening on the shoot. And the image comes up and it's all full colour, like it's in a bright technicolour, fifties looking. And Joel kept saying to John Tatura and the actors, it's not going to look like this, isn't it?

Speaker 141:34

Like it's you know bright technicolor fifties look

Roger Deakins41:45

And we're going, yeah, well, maybe it won't look like this, who knows?

Presenter41:45

I don't know.

Presenter41:49

Indeed it didn't. Luckily it all worked out.

Roger Deakins41:50

That's how it worked, yeah.

Presenter41:52

Um you've described yourself as a purist, Roger, someone who's hesitant to change. Did you have a bit of an internal wrestle before agreeing to go down that colour correcting route?

Roger Deakins42:02

Yeah, I did, yeah, but it's all about the final image and really.

Roger Deakins42:07

The trick, I think, being a cinematographer on a film set is to know about the technology and kind of work out all the things you need and work out those technical challenges, but then forget about it and put your eye to the eyepiece and figure what's in front of you and what you're trying to express, you know.

Presenter42:18

Hmm.

Presenter42:26

I know that when it comes to effects, you prefer effects that are captured through the lens, so that's called in camera, rather than those which have been added in post production. What do you miss when you're not creating these things together on set?

Roger Deakins42:32

Roll the

Roger Deakins42:40

It's having that personal control over it. But also, I mean, there's so many things you miss. I mean, 1984 was the last film that had any effects type imagery in it that was all done in camera. We even did a glass shot where you put a piece of glass at 45 degrees in front of your camera lens and a painter will paint in what you want to appear in the background, additional to what the camera's seeing. I mean, it and then obviously you have to have it all in focus, otherwise it wouldn't work. But it's just like having it there.

Roger Deakins43:17

Uh

Presenter43:17

It's time for some more music, Roger, your seventh choice today. What's next?

Roger Deakins43:20

Disc seven is um sun comes up, it's Tuesday morning, cowboy junkies.

Presenter43:26

And what does this track mean to you? Why are you taking it to the island?

Roger Deakins43:30

Kind of well, it's a about a breakup, but it's about somebody, you know, a girl in this case, waking up and trying to figure out the day that's full of things you don't want to face and the things you're looking forward to, like the coffee or whatever. And it's just the little things of life. And I think I I just love that, the the yeah, the feeling of the little things.

Speaker 143:52

Sun comes up, it's Tuesday morning, hits me straighten me out Guess you forgot to close the bl

Speaker 344:00

But last night, oh that's right I forgot it was me

Speaker 344:10

Yeah, should've missed the smell like from coffee in the morning

Speaker 344:15

And the sound of water splashing all over the bathroom And the kiss that you give me even though I was

Presenter44:24

Cowboy Junkies and sun comes up. It's Tuesday morning. Roger, in the industry you're known as the master of light, and you've said that to be able to light you are. You have to understand how it makes you feel. Can you tell me more about that and about your emotional relationship with the light?

Roger Deakins44:44

I don't know if I can. I really, because it is feelings, isn't it? And you can't describe it. I don't know why I compose the way I do. I don't know. I and I don't really want to. I think that's the magic of it in a way.

Presenter44:56

Is there a film that you're proudest of? Would it be possible to pick one?

Roger Deakins44:59

No, I think that's really hard to say. I mean, I don't know if you have children, we don't, but I mean, if you had children, you wouldn't say which one you were proudest of, would you? I don't think so. The experience of making them is the most important thing. It's part of your life. It's what's there. It's memories, you know. I mean, like there's memories. There's memory of a childhood. There's memories of shooting Javier Bardem in his funny hairdo on No Country for Old Men. You know.

Speaker 145:16

Yeah.

Presenter45:23

Yeah.

Presenter45:25

That Bob, it's right on trend. It's just great.

Roger Deakins45:26

Yeah.

Roger Deakins45:28

Great, great experiences, you know.

Presenter45:31

Well, I'm about to send you to a new landscape for your consideration. The light of the desert island awaits you. What would you like to have as your vista there?

Roger Deakins45:41

I I think of all your guests, maybe I'm somebody that would apart from not being able to take James with me, I think that would be awful. But uh, you know, me on a desert island, I could maybe be quite comfortable with that.

Presenter45:54

I quite like it.

Presenter45:56

All right, Roger. Well, we'll let you take one more track before you go. What's your final choice for the Desert Island?

Roger Deakins46:01

You know, I was never a big fan of the Beatles. I know that's a terrible thing to say. But there's one track that George Harrison wrote. The Beatles didn't record it. He recorded it on his solo album, All Things Must Pass. But as I say, the Beatles themselves vetoed it from their joint albums. And it's called Isn't It a Pity? But I'm choosing it sung by Nina Simone, who added her own words to it and expanded a song which is about people not getting on, basically, and hurting each other.

Roger Deakins46:37

But she expanded it to be a broader comment on the human condition really and capitalism, and uh it's a haunting, beautiful song.

Speaker 146:47

In a pity

Speaker 146:53

You don't know what I'm talking about yet, but I'm gonna tell you soon. It's a pity

Speaker 147:02

Isn't it a bit easier?

Speaker 147:11

Isn't it a shame?

Presenter47:20

Nina Simona and Isn't It a Pity?

Presenter47:23

So, Roger, I'm about to cast you away to the island. I'm giving you the books to take with you, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What's that going to be?

Roger Deakins47:33

I think I'll choose Moby Dick. Great choice. Because I've read it a number of times and it still gives back. There's still more in it I can.

Presenter47:35

Great choice.

Roger Deakins47:41

Learn.

Presenter47:43

It's a perfect choice. You can also have a luxury item. What will that be?

Roger Deakins47:47

Well, I'd like a boat, but that's a bit of a cheat, isn't it? It's a bit too proud.

Presenter47:50

It's a bit too practical, I'm afraid, yeah.

Roger Deakins47:52

I'd like to take my fishing tackle'cause and I could go fishing, couldn't I? I'd be quite happy then.

Presenter47:57

Mm.

Presenter47:58

Yeah, that'd be lovely. Oh, no, absolutely. What do you need? What do you what do you require?

Roger Deakins48:03

Well, I need some kind of light weight spinning rod. I need some light line, maybe ten or eleven pound strain line. Okay. And um some lures because I presumably wouldn't be able to find any bait. So I need some artificial lures, I should think.

Presenter48:07

Mm-hmm.

Presenter48:18

Okay. Yeah, I mean you might have some splendid birds dropping feathers on the island. You could start making your own.

Roger Deakins48:23

Stop making your own. Make my own jig feathers, yeah.

Presenter48:26

We'll send you away with plenty.

Roger Deakins48:28

Okay.

Presenter48:29

And finally, Roger Deakins, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first if you needed to rescue them?

Roger Deakins48:36

That's the hardest of all choices. But I think I'd take Akaba. Just the sound of uh Junetables voice, I think, would echo across the sand. It would be quite wondrous.

Presenter48:48

Sir Roger Deakins, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Roger Deakins48:52

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Presenter49:16

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my chat with Roger. We've cast away many filmmakers, including directors Steven Spielberg and Christopher Nolan, John Hurt, who starred in 1984 in our archive too, along with the producer David Putnam, who gave that career advice to Roger all those years ago. We didn't take it up. The studio manager for today's programme was Duncan Hannant, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the content editor was Mugabe Turia, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the businesswoman, Emma Greed. I do hope you'll join us.

Roger Deakins50:14

This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I will never go into anything so deep like that again. The world's leading artistic figures revealed.

Speaker 350:21

Their creative influences. Disobey, disagree, disavow. I'm John Wilson, and my recent guests have included.

Roger Deakins50:28

Included the sculptor Anish Kapoor, photographer Annie Leibovitz, the actor Kristin Scott Thomas.

Speaker 350:33

It has made me good at telling stories about people who have a secret suffering.

Roger Deakins50:38

And former children's laureate Frank Cottrell-Boyce. If art's got one function, it's to point to what's wonderful and say, look, this is your world, it's insane.

Roger Deakins50:47

Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds.