Shania Twain

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the singer and songwriter Shania Twain. Her achievements as an artist are extraordinary. Her nickname may be the Queen of Country Pop, but her success transcends genre. She's one of only two artists in history to have three consecutive Diamond albums, including 1997's Come On Over, the biggest selling studio album by a female solo artist in music history.

Presenter1:09

She dominated the charts in the nineties and early noughties with anthemic and empowering hits like That Don't Impress Me Much and Man, I Feel Like a Woman.

Presenter1:18

Back then few people knew how much steel there was beneath the leopard print. She had already survived poverty and abuse in her early years in Canada, as well as the premature death of her parents in a car crash.

Presenter1:30

There were more challenges to come, a painful divorce from her music collaborator husband, and a battle with Lyme disease that stopped her singing for the best part of a decade. But triumphs too. A comeback album, Las Vegas residencies, and the Glastonbury Legends slot. She says, My whole life has been like a series of country songs, but with a nice happy ending, I hope. Shania Twain, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. You've said that your songwriting often starts from quite a melancholy place. Even, you know, breezy, upbeat tracks can have a kind of sadder story behind them. I think people might be really surprised by that. Something like, you know, Man I Feel Like a Woman actually comes from a sort of deeper, sadder, more reflective place.

Shania Twain2:13

Yeah.

Shania Twain2:15

My songwriting always starts as me time, alone time.

Shania Twain2:20

I'm just playing around on the guitar, uh playing around with s I'm just being creative and I'm not considering where the song would end up or even if I will finish it as a

Presenter2:31

You know, we'll talk today, I'm sure, about how often you've rejected the stereotypes of what women are supposed to be or were supposed to be in country music. How determined were you in the early days to just Break out of that mould.

Shania Twain2:45

I was thirty when I had my first top ten record.

Shania Twain2:49

I'm already f quite mature at this point now, but I'm I'm still leery of the of the man that sees me as

Shania Twain2:56

An object.

Speaker 32:57

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain2:58

Yeah.

Shania Twain2:58

Because I start singing in bars so young. I'm a girl as I start developing, I'm starting to notice that it's.

Shania Twain3:05

An object.

Speaker 33:06

Yeah.

Presenter3:06

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain3:07

In my teens I would you know, I love to play football and and sport and I would wear two bras just so that I didn't bounce and s you know, I didn't want to get the attention of the boys.

Shania Twain3:19

So by the time I'm in Nashville.

Shania Twain3:21

And I'm writing songs like

Shania Twain3:23

any man of mine and man I feel like a woman and that don't impress me much.

Shania Twain3:28

I'm feeling confident, more confident and liberated to push back.

Shania Twain3:34

through the music. And those are my

Shania Twain3:37

My songs of

Shania Twain3:39

I'm happy to be a woman and I love men, just don't.

Shania Twain3:44

Try to dominate me. It's really that. Janaya, you're going to be sharing your eight discs with us today. Tell us about your first choice. My first choice is a Carpenter's song and record because it was written and produced and recorded by the Carpenters. We've only just begun.

Shania Twain4:05

I would need

Shania Twain4:06

a piece of music like this because it takes me back to

Shania Twain4:11

When I first discovered

Shania Twain4:13

Harmonizing Vocal harmonizing.

Shania Twain4:17

Because the carpenters with their beautiful blend, brother sister blend,

Shania Twain4:21

and the arrangements, the chord progressions, the complexity of the layers.

Shania Twain4:28

I was mesmerized. I still I would have to listen to it every day for the rest of my life to really figure it out. And then maybe I would try it myself in different keys and I would it's it's a song that

Shania Twain4:40

An arrangement that I could experiment with forever. And this is what I did when I was a kid. I learned how to harmonize. I would try to.

Shania Twain4:47

Find parts that weren't in the record. I would never pick the melody because I was more intrigued by what.

Shania Twain4:54

Harmonies were missing. I wanted to be part of the arrangement.

Speaker 35:05

Sharing horizons that are unclear to us

Speaker 35:11

Watching the signs along the way Jumping it over just the two of us

Speaker 35:22

What?

Speaker 35:22

Together day today

Presenter5:27

The Carpenters, and we've only just begun. So Shania Twain, let's go back to the beginning. You were born Eileen Edwards in Windsor, Ontario, august nineteen sixty five, but you moved to Timmins, which is a remote mining town after your parents divorced when you were very small. What was life in Timmins like?

Presenter5:46

It's fairly remote.

Shania Twain5:46

remote because the nearest

Shania Twain5:51

Main city is, you know, thirteen hours drive away, depending on your speed limit.

Shania Twain5:57

And

Shania Twain5:58

There's a lot of wildlife.

Shania Twain6:00

No one lives far from

Shania Twain6:02

The woods, everybody's on the outskirts of the forest. So when you say wildlife, are we talk we're talking bears? Bear, moose.

Shania Twain6:10

Beaver, you know, all kinds of bird life. So it was all about nature.

Speaker 16:15

Uh

Presenter6:16

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain6:16

This is a town that was founded on gold mining. Tough people.

Shania Twain6:22

You know, whether you're a woman or a man, you you need to know how to

Shania Twain6:26

Jumpstart a car.

Shania Twain6:28

There's a lot of practical things that make life ch

Presenter6:31

Challenging in Timmins. So when you were four, your mother Sharon met Jerry Twain. They married. Uh he adopted you and your two sisters and and gave you his surname.

Presenter6:41

Tell me about your dad first then. What what was he like? How would you describe him?

Presenter6:45

My dad

Shania Twain6:45

Dad adopted us when he was twenty two years old, so he was very young.

Shania Twain6:51

Dad and

Shania Twain6:53

My parents then had a child of their own together.

Shania Twain6:57

He's an Indian, Canadian, who native, was not always easy at that time to get jobs.

Shania Twain7:05

With his little education, he had a high school education.

Presenter7:07

And because of his background?

Shania Twain7:08

Yeah.

Presenter7:09

But in f

Shania Twain7:09

Yeah. Uh sure. In the North there's definite, you know, issues with racism. My parents being a mixed couple, we sort of lived a double life in that sense. I went to school with primarily town kids and then on the weekends I would play with my cousins on the reserve. You know, my parents were always juggling and

Shania Twain7:32

running away from bills.

Shania Twain7:35

We were always on the run, it felt. High pressure situations. Always high pressure. Yeah.

Speaker 17:38

Uh Oh wait

Shania Twain7:39

And never mind.

Shania Twain7:41

Feeding us.

Presenter7:42

Yeah.

Shania Twain7:43

And putting clothes on our back. And when you live in a really cold climate like Timmins, Ontario.

Shania Twain7:50

You need seasonal clothing for real. It's critical.

Presenter7:54

Cool. Or you get frostbite. So an incredibly high stress environment for your parents. And and as you say, you know, your dad very young as well. And I I know that your home life back then was very volatile. In your memoir you've described some horrifying scenes, the the violence between your parents, including watching your dad beat your mum unconscious.

Presenter8:14

How as a little girl did you make sense of what you were seeing, what you were witnessing? Yeah.

Shania Twain8:18

Yeah.

Presenter8:18

Uh

Shania Twain8:18

As a little girl, living in a violent home is very confusing. It's scary.

Shania Twain8:24

I remember.

Shania Twain8:27

being four, and my little sister was two, and my older sister was six. Us girls ran out on to the porch in the snow, but we were in our pajamas in our bare feet. So it was really cold. I mean, we were freezing out there.

Shania Twain8:43

And we're watching the this fight.

Shania Twain8:46

The fights going on inside the house were watching from the doorway, on the porch.

Shania Twain8:50

And I just remember the feeling of my feet in that snow, and then the loud footsteps of the the police officers coming up the wooden stairs, squeaking in the snow.

Shania Twain9:01

To save us. You said that it wa it wasn't drinking or drugs or anything. It was always about money. It was always about the struggle to get by and the pressure they felt as young parents with all these kids.

Shania Twain9:12

We talked about it as a family too, and my parents would obviously say, Never say anything because we're going to get the you know, children's aid is going to come in and and take you all away and you're all going to get separated. They weren't threatening us.

Speaker 19:23

Hmm.

Shania Twain9:27

From time to time, if the fight was loud enough, then it would be

Shania Twain9:32

The police showing up at our door. I never remember once them ever taking my mother to the hospital to get

Shania Twain9:40

Uh a medical check.

Shania Twain9:42

And she was obviously

Shania Twain9:45

you know, had been beaten.

Presenter9:47

And what about school for you? Because you were moving a lot, as you said. I think you went to seventeen schools over the course of your school career. D was there anywhere there where you could find a foothold, where you had a place that you you felt like you belonged to, you felt happier?

Shania Twain10:03

There was no place that we ever stayed long enough to f ever feel that

Shania Twain10:08

It was

Shania Twain10:10

permanent that oh we're good now

Shania Twain10:12

Shania, it's time for your second disc. What's it gonna be? Goodbye, Yellow Brook Road. Me and my two sisters in the winter, which it is many months a year in Timmins, Ontario, Canada.

Shania Twain10:24

We would go skating on Saturday nights.

Shania Twain10:27

This is where we could hear pop music.

Shania Twain10:32

'Cause when we were little

Shania Twain10:34

My parents only played country music around the house. My favorite Floating in the Clouds song to skate to was Goodbye Yellow Brick Road by Elton John.

Shania Twain10:45

For that.

Shania Twain10:46

three hours in that evening on Saturdays. We were

Shania Twain10:51

No, you were with

Speaker 110:51

But

Shania Twain10:52

everyone else doing what everybody else did.

Speaker 311:01

Uh

Speaker 311:11

So for my yellow little road where the Dark Cloud Society House

Speaker 311:19

You can't let me house going back to my clouds.

Presenter11:26

Elton John and Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. So Shania Twain, your mother Sharon, tell me more about her as a person. We've heard a lot of the struggles that she faced, but but who was she underneath that?

Presenter11:40

Well first I

Shania Twain11:40

I want to explain what she looked like. She was

Shania Twain11:46

Very, very thin, thin lady. She was tall.

Shania Twain11:52

And

Shania Twain11:54

was

Shania Twain11:55

extremely flexible. She would sit at the

Shania Twain11:59

table and sometimes just to make us laugh she would pull her leg up around the back of her head.

Shania Twain12:06

In the

Shania Twain12:07

She had a sense of humor and loved to dance around the kitchen. She loved to dance. She loved music. She had a terrible singing voice. She was a chain smoker.

Shania Twain12:18

And lived on coffee and cigarettes is sort of the way I would describe her.

Shania Twain12:23

but was f very fragile and I alwo always saw her as my little bird. So you felt you had to protect her. And I did have to protect her because, you know, when my her and my dad would get into fights

Shania Twain12:34

I would have to do dramatic things. It's like when two dogs are fighting. I mean, what do you how do you get in the middle of that? And I would have to maybe hit a chair over his back to get his attention and then run away.

Speaker 112:44

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain12:46

It was bad, like he would choke her a lot and do things that that often don't end well.

Presenter12:51

Such an interesting contradiction, your mum, though, because yes, all that's going on, but from an early age she is also absolutely convinced that you're going to be a singer and you're going to be a massive success. So so where did that conviction come from?

Shania Twain13:06

Yeah.

Shania Twain13:07

Oh boy, if she would wake me up around eleven thirty to take me to the bar to sing,'cause, you know, kids are not allowed in in liquor premises that doesn't like like a bar.

Shania Twain13:17

So they kind of wait for last orders. Wait for last orders. That could be your song. Load up the table with drinks and then I can go in and sing.

Presenter13:17

So

Presenter13:18

That could be your load up.

Shania Twain13:24

But before we would go out my mother would make me do her hair and make up, because

Shania Twain13:30

I mean, her skin was often bruised, she was very unhealthy looking, and she'd put on some lipstick and then we would go. My mother was so determined that I was going to get my big break and get discovered on a a bar stage.

Shania Twain13:45

By some record executive. How old are you at this point? What kind of age? Oh, this starts at eight years old.

Shania Twain13:51

But we made it to those bars.

Presenter13:52

What were the shows like? That experience like?

Shania Twain13:56

Uh

Presenter13:56

Uh

Shania Twain13:56

I took it very seriously. I learned a hundred songs. People would yell out songs and I was very proud to be able to sing that song. And so we're talking, is it all country and western at this point? At the age of eight, it's all country western. And you know, at the age of ten and eleven, it's still country western. But then it starts getting a little more progressive and modern with

Shania Twain14:18

A Rhinestone Cowboy, you know, Glenn Campbell is now bringing to

Shania Twain14:24

The country western music, a more modern sound. Then you've got a Living Newton-John that makes country records.

Presenter14:32

The gigs must have been rowdy. I mean, you've got people in there who've been drinking all night. They're piling up the drinks for to continue going while you're performing. How was that for you? Were you scared? Was it an intimidating environment? How did you feel about that?

Shania Twain14:48

The environment was very, very smoky.

Shania Twain14:51

I'm just up there with my guitar.

Shania Twain14:53

I was usually up there a lot of the time by myself because the band was now done. Sometimes they would stay and play some songs with me, which would be really great.

Speaker 114:57

Summed.

Shania Twain15:02

Sometimes they would be strippers.

Shania Twain15:04

And there were two sides of the bars, two stages. They would be

Shania Twain15:09

a stripper side and a music side, live music side.

Shania Twain15:12

They would alternate when who was on. And I remember thinking that the strippers were so beautiful and

Shania Twain15:19

And their costumes glittered and the way they carried themselves and they were wearing

Shania Twain15:24

They looked beautiful to me, I didn't understand the context.

Presenter15:28

Yeah.

Shania Twain15:28

Two.

Presenter15:28

Oh yeah. It's time to go to the music. Tell us about your third choice today. What are we going to hear next and why are you taking it to the island?

Presenter15:37

Yeah.

Shania Twain15:37

We're going to hear Kansas dust in the wind.

Shania Twain15:41

At this age I'm twelve.

Shania Twain15:44

The music teacher at the time understood that I had a talent and I asked him, I said, you know, do you mind if I play guitar?

Shania Twain15:53

Between classes and just practice, or if I, you know, when I get off the bus, if I could come straight in.

Shania Twain15:58

Sit down and play guitar'cause there's this new song I really want to learn. It's called Dust in the Wind. And it was quite complicated at my age to play this song on guitar.

Shania Twain16:07

And he was kind and read through the lines, but did understand that I had a legitimate interest in learning this song on the acoustic guitar, and I was able to skip recess.

Speaker 316:18

Close by

Speaker 316:24

Only for a moment and the moment's gone.

Speaker 316:29

Oh my dreams.

Speaker 316:34

Passed before my eyes a curiosity

Speaker 116:35

Yeah yeah.

Speaker 316:40

Just in the wind.

Speaker 316:44

POMI There is dust in the way.

Presenter16:48

Kansas and dust in the wind. So Shania Twain. You were learning that at twelve and and that was the time that your older sister Jill left home. And then the following year, nineteen seventy nine, when you were thirteen, you decided that you just had enough. So you packed the car,

Presenter17:04

You got your mother out of bed and you told her to drive you and your remaining siblings to Toronto. What was the plan?

Shania Twain17:12

I knew my dad was going to be gone to work.

Shania Twain17:15

And not back till late.

Shania Twain17:18

This gave me time for the kids to get back from school. While they were gone, I skipped school that day.

Shania Twain17:24

While they were gone.

Shania Twain17:25

And my mother was sleeping all day anyway, so that she was um not aware.

Shania Twain17:30

Packed up the clothes I thought the kids needed.

Shania Twain17:34

It's so interesting that you call them the kids as if you're not one of the kids. True.

Shania Twain17:38

Back up the kids in the back seat.

Shania Twain17:42

Put my mother's grandfather clock.

Shania Twain17:45

straddled over their laps, and my mother

Shania Twain17:47

That was going to make a difference. If that clock was there, she was going to be it eased it a little bit that it was precious to her. It was coming to us with us. Yes. And the crucifix as well.

Presenter17:52

It was precious to her.

Shania Twain17:57

that my grandmother had always hung up above her door.

Shania Twain18:01

So

Shania Twain18:02

The car's packed. Go to my mom, give her a cigarette in bed. Mom, your coffee's ready.

Shania Twain18:08

She gets up, comes to the table.

Shania Twain18:10

drinks her coffee and I explain to her, You're gonna get dressed.

Shania Twain18:14

And we're going to Toronto. And the kids are already in the car. Everything's ready to go. She didn't even.

Shania Twain18:20

Argue.

Shania Twain18:21

She got dressed and

Shania Twain18:24

got behind the wheel and wanted us to start a new life.

Shania Twain18:29

I said, Let's go, let's drive. So we drive.

Shania Twain18:32

And we get to the city. Once we get inside the city limits, we don't know where we're going. We don't have a clue.

Shania Twain18:38

I say, well, you know, let's stop at a phone booth, or we'll stop a police officer or something.

Presenter18:43

Did you have friends, connections, anybody that you were going to stay with or anything like that?

Shania Twain18:48

No, there was nobody. So phone booth, open up the yellow pages and there's, you know, like shelter. So I call the shelter and they don't really take me seriously'cause I'm I've got this child's voice.

Presenter19:03

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain19:04

I say, Mom, you're gonna have to come and you're gonna have to

Presenter19:06

Yeah.

Shania Twain19:06

Do this yourself.

Presenter19:06

Like it was in the dynamic was such that it was natural for you to make that phone call because people might not get that. You know, you had been f filing the tax returns for your family, you'd been getting the kids ready for school, so that that's not something that your mum would have done to to pick up that phone and

Presenter19:22

Normally.

Shania Twain19:24

Uh

Presenter19:24

Tip.

Shania Twain19:24

running the household. My mom just never for l m sometimes months did not leave the house, unless I did her hair and makeup when she was taking me to the bar.

Shania Twain19:33

So she came to the phone the phone booth.

Shania Twain19:37

spoke to the lady.

Shania Twain19:39

And we went to our first shelter. So this goes on and then then school starts, the kids get registered. So that by finding you a job, now they can move you out of the shelter and they place you in a home with one other mother.

Shania Twain19:54

And now you're two families. Then we were finally down to one. And it was just awesome.

Presenter19:57

How was that how did it feel? And how did the change affect you and your mum too? My mother did well.

Presenter20:05

Yeah.

Shania Twain20:05

I thought. She played by the rules and she

Shania Twain20:09

Was enjoying the camaraderie with the other mothers and the understanding that.

Shania Twain20:16

It happens to all kinds of women. They were from all walks of life.

Presenter20:20

Your mum did eventually go back to your dad.

Presenter20:23

In 1981, do you understand why she did that, why she made that decision?

Presenter20:28

My father came

Shania Twain20:29

I'm looking for us.

Shania Twain20:31

A lot.

Shania Twain20:33

After a certain time away, once the kids had understood what they were and were not desient, you could speak to your dad.

Shania Twain20:38

'Cause mm-hmm.

Shania Twain20:40

It's still your father, right?

Shania Twain20:44

Uh so one day I tell my dad I got a job at McDonald's on Kipling.

Shania Twain20:52

And I was so mad at myself, but he narrowed it down slowly as to where we were

Speaker 321:01

Hmm.

Shania Twain21:03

I don't know how it happened, but maybe in a conversation with my mother, he said, I know you're in this area, and I really you know, whatever he was saying after a year.

Shania Twain21:15

and a half or whatever it was that she made it through not going back, but she broke down and they went they did go back and I stayed that second summer.

Shania Twain21:24

By myself.

Presenter21:26

Shania Twain, I want to find out what happened next, but I also want to hear your next disc. It's your fourth choice today. What's it going to be?

Presenter21:34

One of my

Shania Twain21:34

My Grandmother's Favorite Songs

Shania Twain21:37

My grandmother, Eileen,

Shania Twain21:38

And I'm named my birth name is Eileen.

Shania Twain21:41

was El Paso.

Shania Twain21:44

And Marty Robbins played in our house a lot to country music. It brought the Western to the country. It was.

Shania Twain21:53

Country and Western.

Shania Twain21:56

And I loved all the minor chords and the jangles on the nylon strings and his voice and the harmonies.

Speaker 322:06

Out in the West Texas town of El Paso, I fell in love with a Mexican girl.

Speaker 322:15

Night-time would find me in Rose's cantina, Music would play and Ferdinand would whirl.

Speaker 322:25

Blacker than night were the eyes of Felina, Wicked and evil while casting a spell.

Presenter22:32

Marty Robbins and El Paso.

Presenter22:37

So, Shania Twain, alongside everything that we've been talking about, you were songwriting. From the age of ten, you were writing your own material. You've described writing as thinking out loud and feeling out loud, a way of downloading yourself. What were you writing about as a young person?

Presenter22:54

I see.

Shania Twain22:54

Young person I was writing about Places I didn't know about yet. I was creating worlds, I was creating characters.

Shania Twain23:02

I would sing with made up

Shania Twain23:05

Accents

Shania Twain23:07

of how I imagine other people might speak in different places of the world. I was transporting myself.

Speaker 123:12

Mm-hmm.

Shania Twain23:13

Songwriting transported me through my imagination.

Shania Twain23:17

to anything. It was my way of colouring.

Shania Twain23:21

with words and sound.

Presenter23:24

So music a real passion for you from from such an early age? So much so that when you graduated from high school in nineteen eighty three, you actually skipped the ceremony and the prom. What were you doing instead?

Presenter23:36

Yeah.

Shania Twain23:36

It was before I

Shania Twain23:37

Even could write my exams to graduate in high school. I

Shania Twain23:43

was offered

Shania Twain23:44

To be the lead singer in a band that was traveling. And it was traveling to a different part of the country. It was going to the East Coast, which I had never been before.

Shania Twain23:53

And I go to my principal and I ask him if I can

Shania Twain23:57

Write them early.

Shania Twain23:59

And I do. I pass. If you pass, you can go. So I leave.

Shania Twain24:06

A few weeks before.

Shania Twain24:08

my graduation before even the exams.

Shania Twain24:12

And I break it to my parents that I'm going

Shania Twain24:15

to travel with a band that I do not know.

Shania Twain24:18

And we are gonna jam into a

Shania Twain24:22

little cube van and go to the east coast.

Shania Twain24:27

Two play synthesized rock music.

Shania Twain24:30

And and how did they react?

Shania Twain24:32

They weren't happy about this. They really thought.

Shania Twain24:36

It wasn't gonna go anywhere.

Shania Twain24:38

Yeah.

Presenter24:38

So Shania, you were making your way. You went to Toronto to try and get a a record deal. You were working hard, but then on the first of november nineteen eighty seven, you got a phone call that completely changed your life.

Presenter24:51

Your parents had been killed in a head on collision with a lorry.

Presenter24:55

You were just twenty two. What do you remember about that night?

Shania Twain24:59

I collapsed hearing that news over the phone.

Shania Twain25:06

My sister called me and I could hear

Shania Twain25:09

My little brother howling.

Shania Twain25:11

In the background.

Shania Twain25:13

We were all just wailing.

Shania Twain25:15

Together the kids could not be separated.

Presenter25:18

Hmm.

Shania Twain25:18

After that accident they needed to stay together.

Presenter25:19

We need to

Presenter25:20

And and so then at twenty two you become responsible for for them, for the whole family, also for dealing with the the personal and business affairs of of your parents and and their you know their their working life.

Presenter25:33

How did you get through the time that followed? It must have been so difficult.

Shania Twain25:37

I leave Toronto, of course.

Shania Twain25:40

back in the family.

Shania Twain25:42

the last family home that we had.

Shania Twain25:45

and that my the kids were still living in and when my parents died and moved back in.

Shania Twain25:51

My older sister was still gone. You know, now she's got two children. She's married and

Shania Twain25:59

has her own life in another town.

Shania Twain26:02

I have to do a lot of things I know nothing about. Like.

Shania Twain26:08

Take out a second mortgage for the house to sustain what's going to happen next.

Shania Twain26:14

until the business equipment can be sold from the

Shania Twain26:18

tree planting and I'm selling vehicles off and I'm

Shania Twain26:22

In lawyer's office regularly dealing with the insurance because.

Shania Twain26:28

The passengers in the vehicle were suing, and the truck driver was suing, and everybody was, there was so many.

Shania Twain26:34

Uh

Shania Twain26:35

complexities to the

Shania Twain26:37

Accident itself, I had to understand the accident reports, things I nobody would ever want to have to ever.

Shania Twain26:45

you know, we have to go through step by step, you know, the body positions, the the everything, just terrible. And I wasn't allowed to grieve'cause I'm thrown into this state of guardianship. You're the one who's holding everything together. And I'm the executress.

Shania Twain27:01

Plus, I don't have a job. First thing I do is I rent the upstairs apartment of the home the home. It was just a little apartment.

Shania Twain27:09

And then I'm I say to the kids,

Shania Twain27:11

I not too long after find a singing job.

Shania Twain27:15

In a a town.

Presenter27:17

South.

Presenter27:18

I want to come to that, Janiah. But first, I want to hear your next disc. This is your fifth choice today. Tell us about this next piece of music and what it means to you.

Presenter27:29

Oh boy

Shania Twain27:29

Boy.

Shania Twain27:32

Annio Morricone.

Shania Twain27:34

Besides being a music genius, Stop Me in My Tracks.

Shania Twain27:39

I had to pull over on the side of the road.

Shania Twain27:43

Because I could no longer see through my tears.

Shania Twain27:48

to be able to continue listening through this piece.

Shania Twain27:51

I'd already seen the movie.

Shania Twain27:54

The mission?

Shania Twain27:55

But I'd never absorbed

Shania Twain27:58

the soundtrack until I didn't have the visual and I was just in my car.

Shania Twain28:03

Driving.

Shania Twain28:05

My parents have not long passed, and I'm overwhelmed with so much responsibility.

Shania Twain28:12

And Gabriel's oboe comes on in the soundtrack.

Shania Twain28:18

And I'm just paralyzed and I just cry my face off for

Shania Twain28:22

I don't even remember how long I was just numb.

Shania Twain28:24

and it was like a dam had broke.

Shania Twain28:28

I've always realized how powerful music is, but

Shania Twain28:32

Gabriel Zobo is still. I really have a hard time getting through that whole soundtrack without.

Speaker 128:38

Without

Shania Twain28:39

crying and I think everybody needs a good cry.

Shania Twain28:42

If I'm

Shania Twain28:44

I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life on a deserted island, and there's one piece of music I need when I need a good cry.

Shania Twain28:52

It's Gabriel Zomo.

Presenter29:25

Gabriel Zobo from the film soundtrack to the mission by Enyo Morricone. Shania Twain, after your parents died, you'd had to give up on music, really. You were just overwhelmed by dealing with what had happened and looking after your family. But then your mother's friend, the woman who would become your first manager, Mary Bailey, found you a job. It was at the Deerhurst Golf Resort in Ontario. What did it involve?

Shania Twain29:51

Singing.

Presenter29:53

Yeah.

Shania Twain29:53

in a cast of four other singers.

Shania Twain29:56

The band had a horn section.

Shania Twain29:59

I was very thrilled with that because I played the trumpet in high school. So I'm in this variety show.

Shania Twain30:07

At this golf resort, uh, six hours from our hometown of Timmins. So we're quite far south now. And I had to move the kids to Huntsville, to this town, because

Shania Twain30:19

I had an income that was steady.

Shania Twain30:22

And I could still sing. I couldn't travel around and leave the family. So I was very lucky to have this find this job. Now, Mary Bailey, who is a uh country music singer,

Shania Twain30:33

From my youth.

Shania Twain30:35

Is a woman that my mother reached out to when I was about 11.

Shania Twain30:40

It was a backstage thing. You know, my mum said, you know, you know, could always use your help and

Shania Twain30:46

Would you mind exchanging numbers and

Shania Twain30:48

Mara was always very kind and sweet and generous. And when my parents died,

Shania Twain30:53

I called Mary and said, I'm quitting music.

Shania Twain30:56

There's just no way I'm going to ever be able to earn anything in the bars in Timmins. They they'll never hire.

Shania Twain31:03

Constant. They're all they always have live music moving in and out of out of town, and I can't move anywhere. The kids are still in school.

Shania Twain31:10

So she said,'Just a minute, I've heard of this place. Would you just come with me and see what it's about'? Well, I'd never heard of Huntsville.

Shania Twain31:18

I go with her just over a two-night thing.

Shania Twain31:21

And I'm right in that moment. She says, Why don't you audition? They've got big feather boas and they're wearing fish nets and like make up. I mean, I know all the music, but this is just not what I do.

Shania Twain31:37

And

Shania Twain31:38

Then there was a lounge she took me to.

Shania Twain31:41

And then there was a rock bar. So there were three stages in this resort. So three different genres, different gigs. Exactly. And she said, Yes, but you would be doing the piano lounge, which you could play your guitar and do all the folk stuff you like. And then you can go in the rock bar and do all the rock stuff you like. You know, then you do the variety show.

Shania Twain32:02

And you could live in one place.

Shania Twain32:05

And I went home, told the kids that this was the only way I could make a living still singing with the

Shania Twain32:12

You know, let's do this.

Shania Twain32:14

I move the kids and we end up further south.

Shania Twain32:20

I'm no further from getting a contract, yet, as far as I'm concerned.

Shania Twain32:25

at least in a permanent, steady job.

Shania Twain32:28

and we all us kids can stay together.

Presenter32:32

But at one point Mary arranged for someone to come from Nashville to watch you perform. Tell me about that. How did it go?

Shania Twain32:39

Uh

Presenter32:40

Uh

Shania Twain32:40

So for the three years that I'm singing at the resort, I continue to write music. Of course, writing, songwriting is at my core. That is what I that's my joy.

Shania Twain32:49

And, you know, the stage paid the bills and the songwriting was my love and the dream.

Shania Twain32:57

I kept sharing my demo tapes with Mary.

Shania Twain33:00

You know, she became like a second mother, honestly.

Shania Twain33:04

And she would give me feedback. She sends the demo to somebody she knows in Nashville from her early days.

Shania Twain33:11

He's a Nashville music lawyer, and he's blown away.

Shania Twain33:15

To the point where he comes all the way to the resort to see me sing live.

Shania Twain33:21

And when I sang the song

Shania Twain33:24

Wind beneath my wings. He just couldn't believe it. And now at this point, I've been at the resort for a while. I can sing in stilettos. I can wear a sequin gown.

Shania Twain33:38

I can present more like a world class performer. So you've learned the skills of the trade, really? I learned so much at this resort.

Shania Twain33:48

I thought I would be there forever.

Shania Twain33:50

Paying bills.

Shania Twain33:52

which I was grateful to be able to do. I knew eventually the kids would go away.

Shania Twain33:57

and it would be too late for me to have a career.

Shania Twain33:59

And I was only thirty when I had my first top ten song. So the stall was there in my efforts to become a recording artist.

Shania Twain34:10

But

Shania Twain34:11

The heavens opened

Shania Twain34:14

Because

Shania Twain34:16

I was finally discovered. Finally. Like a proper discovery. It was a proper bigwig comes from Nashville, Tennessee.

Presenter34:24

And offers you a big fat record contract. It's the dream. The dream.

Shania Twain34:27

And I go to Nashville, Tennessee, and I sit around that big round conference table, and they say,

Shania Twain34:33

Little Miss Twain, please sign your name.

Shania Twain34:36

Shania, I am desperate to know what

Presenter34:38

happens next. But you know how this programme works. We've got to make room for the music too. So it's your sixth choice now.

Shania Twain34:43

Next. Tell me about this one. Gentle on My Mind, Glenn Campbell.

Shania Twain34:49

And Glenn Campbell is an artist that I did tell him this in person when I met him. I said, if I.

Shania Twain34:54

I think it was just a very awkward moment, to be honest. But I said, if I had been born a boy, I would have wanted to have your voice.

Shania Twain35:02

He has the most perfect voice.

Shania Twain35:04

A music story like any story

Shania Twain35:08

Needs to have peaks and valleys and climax. And General of My Mind had none of that. It was just, but it was so perfect and it was.

Shania Twain35:17

Something I wanted to learn how to do.

Shania Twain35:20

And so I was fixed on this song.

Shania Twain35:22

As a musician?

Shania Twain35:24

Because of the guitar playing.

Shania Twain35:26

and the nature of the writing of the song.

Speaker 335:28

It's knowing that your door is always open and your path is free to all.

Speaker 335:37

That makes me tend to leave my sleeping bag rolled up and stashed behind your couch.

Speaker 335:46

And it's knowing I'm not shackled by forgotten words and bonds, and the ink stains that are dried upon some line.

Speaker 335:56

That keeps you in the bal

Presenter35:58

Glenn Campbell and Gentle on My Mind. Shania Twain, in nineteen ninety three you signed an autograph for a record producer called Mutt Lang. Six months later, you were musical collaborators and husband and wife. How instant was the connection between you?

Shania Twain36:15

Uh

Presenter36:16

Yeah.

Shania Twain36:16

Over the phone, the connection was instant, but it wasn't a love at first sight sort of thing. It was a music connection.

Shania Twain36:23

He was a fan.

Shania Twain36:25

Of my voice, and said, I really love this Karen Carpenter quality in your voice.

Shania Twain36:32

I thought, whoa, he's got a very

Shania Twain36:35

sensitive ear because he has no idea that I've

Shania Twain36:39

Been emulating in the earliest years of my vocal development Karen Carpenter.

Shania Twain36:45

We actually chat for many hours about music and he says, Do you write music?

Shania Twain36:50

Because I would love to hear what

Presenter36:52

What you write. Shania, you were, as you say, had this instant music connection and.

Presenter36:59

Created some huge hits together. The Woman in Me, your first album with Mutt, came out in February 1995. Come On Over followed in 1997. I mean, that album has some amazing statistics. Twelve hit singles, four Grammys, 40 million copies sold, and it still holds the record as the biggest selling studio album of all time by a female solo artist. You were in a whirlwind by this point. Your success was stratospheric. Did you get to enjoy it?

Shania Twain37:27

Yeah.

Presenter37:28

Yeah.

Shania Twain37:28

I certainly enjoyed the songwriting. I had.

Shania Twain37:31

A real indulgence in the songwriting because now I had a different purpose for it. It wasn't

Shania Twain37:36

To get the record deal it was to record my own.

Shania Twain37:40

original music that Mutt so respected and

Shania Twain37:45

And of course, by now I know how enormous he is successfully as a talent.

Shania Twain37:53

Thinking, wow, this guy really sees me as a a co-writing equal.

Shania Twain37:59

All of those records, there were three diamond tr you know, triple consecutive diamond records in a row, and all of that songwriting was just so great and fun. But the

Shania Twain38:07

the part where I the departure where I had to go off and then tour and promote and all the videos I had to make, the singles kept coming. I was excited and grateful, but I'm

Shania Twain38:20

Thinking.

Shania Twain38:22

I

Shania Twain38:24

I'm now in a workaholic mode. I am.

Shania Twain38:28

Just

Shania Twain38:29

only living for

Shania Twain38:31

The music that I've

Shania Twain38:33

Recorded. The recording becoming a recording artist is now this kind of trap.

Shania Twain38:40

Kinda like a hamster wheel.

Shania Twain38:42

That you can't get off.

Presenter38:43

Yeah.

Shania Twain38:44

By default, it was just so successful.

Presenter38:47

We'll find out what happened next after your next track, Shania. It's your seventh choice today. What is it and why are you taking it to the island with you?

Shania Twain38:54

Yeah.

Presenter38:55

Yeah. Sir John.

Shania Twain38:55

Stevie Wonder.

Shania Twain38:57

I will never get tired of hearing this song, this track, this arrangement, the production.

Shania Twain39:04

The genius of Stevie Wonder?

Shania Twain39:06

I always dreamt.

Shania Twain39:08

as a child that I would some day become his back up singer.

Shania Twain39:13

And I will forever.

Shania Twain39:15

Be trying in my own shower to be Stevie Wonder's backup singer.

Shania Twain39:21

You must have sung with him, by this point, have you?

Shania Twain39:24

I have sung with Stevie Wonder, and it was such a joy.

Shania Twain39:28

He's so famous among uh singers for his vocal agility. It's ridiculous. And then, you know, being able to sing with him in person was um a highlight of my entire life.

Speaker 339:41

Music is a world within itself With a language we all understand

Speaker 339:50

With an equal affirmative for all to sing, dance, and clap their hands.

Speaker 339:59

Just because the record has improved, don't make it in the group But you can tell right away

Presenter40:08

Stevie Wonder, and Sir Duke.

Presenter40:11

Shania Twin, in 2003, while you were out horse riding, you were bitten by a tick and you contracted Lyme disease. The illness damaged the nerves in your vocal cords and you lost your voice for what turned out to be a decade. When did you realize what was happening with your singing voice?

Shania Twain40:29

on a horse ride, which was always what I did when

Shania Twain40:33

when I wasn't on a bus or on stage. I got bit by a tick in the forest and contracted Lyme's disease. I got very ill.

Shania Twain40:44

And I was able to get through the initial infection by many, many weeks of antibiotics.

Shania Twain40:52

But the damage that it does to you within that once it's still in your when you're in that infectious

Shania Twain41:01

Phase, initial phase, stays with you. But then I was not to get on a stage again for many years.

Shania Twain41:08

And

Shania Twain41:09

Of story and beginning of a new wonderful phase of being able to sing again. I have open throat surgery, they open your neck, you're awake.

Shania Twain41:19

And they they put a big clamp in your neck.

Shania Twain41:22

And they open it up and they

Shania Twain41:24

Push your larynx to the side.

Shania Twain41:26

And they

Shania Twain41:28

Look at the nerves. Euphonate again.

Shania Twain41:31

And they can see so you have to stay awake during the surgery so that you can do that, presumably. Wow, okay. Sing for me. That's what I had to do. I had to sing and.

Shania Twain41:40

All the bell sounds, everything.

Presenter41:42

Everything.

Presenter41:44

Oh, it's terrible. I'm glad that you said you know the start of a new chapter because it was it really was all changed during this period. In two thousand eight, while you were still struggling with change in your voice, you discovered that your husband Mutt had been having an affair with your closest friend.

Presenter41:59

And then in the in the fall out of the marriage break up, you found love in an amazing twist of fate with her ex husband, Fred.

Presenter42:10

So when did you and Fred realize that you were falling for each other?

Shania Twain42:12

I barely knew Fred. I don't know one to one.

Shania Twain42:16

Friendship level.

Shania Twain42:18

He was, you know, my friends.

Shania Twain42:20

husband, and I knew her before I'd ever before they even met.

Shania Twain42:27

I was in a very isolated scenario because I was always on tour and when I was home, I had one friend. You know, that's all I had time for.

Shania Twain42:36

And she worked for us. And we uh both end up having uh pregnancies at the same time, parallel time.

Shania Twain42:46

And now I get to know Fred a little bit better because we're now more like two families together because we've got the kids together. And we start going out to meals together and, you know, go places together. But

Shania Twain42:58

Her husband, Fred, is very busy. He's you know, he's an executive at Nespresso and it's he's running around the planet managing. And I'm I don't have my voice at this point now. And I'm I'm enjoying being mom. I'm enjoying still writing music and

Shania Twain43:15

being in the garden and being, you know, loving my nesting.

Shania Twain43:19

By the time the blinders come off I mean it I don't even know what's anything's going on, but Fred

Shania Twain43:25

takes the blinders off.

Shania Twain43:27

Fred, my friend's husband who

Shania Twain43:30

is Joanna's father, you know.

Shania Twain43:33

My the kids love Fred. This is how I know Fred.

Shania Twain43:37

He takes the blinders off, tells me what's going on, and I don't believe him. And I tell him that I really think that he's he's just, I think the actual language was.

Shania Twain43:46

I just thought he was imagining things delusional.

Shania Twain43:49

You know, it turns out it it just was never gonna end and and so friend and I we collapse and go, you know, at some point we just gotta.

Shania Twain43:59

let it go, and in that time we found each other.

Shania Twain44:04

And it was really great to say, Well,

Shania Twain44:07

There's no hope?

Shania Twain44:09

So

Shania Twain44:12

And in knowing that, you know.

Shania Twain44:14

I found out what a beautiful person he was. The person I didn't know. The man that was this incredible.

Shania Twain44:22

Partner

Shania Twain44:23

I think you need to be my partner.

Presenter44:26

Yeah.

Shania Twain44:26

I'll treat you better.

Presenter44:27

Yeah.

Presenter44:28

Shanair, it's time for the music, your final choice today. What's it gonna be and why? Bobby Gentry.

Shania Twain44:34

O to Billy Joe and this is a childhood song, a folk song, and it was a story that.

Shania Twain44:44

I considered a mystery.

Shania Twain44:47

You know, and she was very

Shania Twain44:49

Descriptive.

Shania Twain44:50

I could I was there.

Speaker 344:53

Was the third of June another sleepy dusty delta day?

Speaker 345:01

I was out chopping cotton and my brother was baling hay.

Speaker 345:09

And at dinner time we stopped and walked back to the house to eat.

Speaker 345:17

And mama hollered at the back door, Y'all remember to wipe your feet.

Presenter45:23

Ode to Billy Joe, Bobby Gentry.

Presenter45:26

Shania Twain, I'm going to cast you away to your desert island now. I'm going to give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book with you. What have you chosen? I've chosen Life is Fair.

Shania Twain45:38

Yeah.

Shania Twain45:39

I read

Shania Twain45:41

This book

Shania Twain45:42

when I was just feeling really desperate.

Shania Twain45:46

I think this was the biggest thing with my divorce. I just, I felt like I was losing.

Shania Twain45:52

My a family again. It's like a shotgun, you know. There's just you cannot put those you just can't get it all back in the shell ever again. It's it's sprayed and spread out and

Shania Twain46:04

Lost, so I felt that way after my divorce.

Shania Twain46:08

And

Shania Twain46:10

Life is fair.

Shania Twain46:12

It's about a man who loses his son to cancer.

Shania Twain46:17

And

Shania Twain46:18

The bravery and the courage of his child.

Shania Twain46:23

taught him that you just need to

Shania Twain46:27

Put on your big boy pants. He was crumbling, this father and of course any father would, but it's the way his son managed it.

Shania Twain46:36

and managed it for the father and I thought, Well, you know, I I can find I can

Presenter46:45

and find courage to get through this.

Shania Twain46:46

Yeah.

Presenter46:46

Life is Fair by Brian Hines Then Is Yours. We'll also give you a luxury item. What would you like to take?

Presenter46:54

Well I think

Shania Twain46:54

The most deadly thing.

Shania Twain46:56

Out in nature anywhere in the world.

Shania Twain46:59

are the insects. They're the biggest threat. I know this because I come from Timmins, Ontario, where bla the black flies can eat you alive. That's what we always say. They bring down the biggest animals. They'll they'll bring a moose down. Uh if I've got the right music.

Shania Twain47:13

I've got some great books.

Shania Twain47:16

But I will not ever survive if I do not have insect repellent.

Shania Twain47:22

No way. Do not ever send me anywhere in any nature without insect repellents. I won't survive, I admit it.

Presenter47:31

Well, we're going to give you the insect repellent, absolutely. And finally, which one of your eight discs would you rush to save from the waves first, if you had to? Dust in the wind.

Shania Twain47:41

Yeah.

Presenter47:42

What?

Shania Twain47:42

Okay.

Shania Twain47:43

Because dust in the wind reminds me it's being aware of mortality and never taking

Shania Twain47:52

a minute for granted by staying in that awareness.

Shania Twain47:58

Is why you will survive.

Shania Twain48:00

It's a melancholy song, but it in the end it's just a folk song, and that makes me happy.

Presenter48:06

Shania Twain, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Presenter48:10

Thank you.

Presenter48:24

Hello, it was lovely chatting to Shania and I hope she's comfortable on her island with that insect repellent. There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to. We've cast so many other musicians away over the years including Adele, Bruce Springsteen and Debbie Harry. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Disc's website. The studio managers for today's programme were Emma Hart and Jackie Marjoram. The executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The content editor was Mugabe Turia and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when my castaway will be the cinematographer Sir Roger Deakins.

Speaker 149:22

Hi there, I'm Dilly Carter and this is everything you need to know about my new podcast. On Sort Your Life Out Unpacked, I interview a different celebrity every episode. They bring me in three items from their home that reveal the most about them and we unpack the stories behind those items. And I give you a few tips and tricks along the way. Some of the guests that I'm going to be interviewing are TV presenters like Lorraine Kelly, reality stars like Kerry Katona, podcast royalty like Elizabeth Day and of course our very own Stacey Solomon.

Speaker 149:52

Oh, and let's not forget the wonderful host of Desert Island discs, Lauren Laverne. I think, as with everything Sort Your Life Out-based, you are going to get so much motivation, inspiration and ideas for your own home. Sort Your Life Out Unpacked presented by me, Diddy Carter. You can watch us on iPlayer and listen on BBC Sound.