Paul Farmer

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:45

My castaway this week is the charity leader Paul Farmer. He spent his working life campaigning, fundraising and changing the national conversation around some of the most challenging issues in our society. He was a graduate with a history degree from Oxford when he found himself working for a heritage center. He fell in love with the charity sector, moving to the Samaritans. His experiences taking calls from those struggling with their mental health made him a campaigner.

Presenter1:12

Determined to do more than listen, he eventually moved to Mind, where he became CEO. As well as leading successful fundraising efforts that changed the scope of what the charity could do, he effectively lobbied the government, leading a 15-year campaign that helped to change legislation and the national conversation about mental health. His latest challenge is what used to be called old age, though we should probably use later life. He's taken the helm at Age UK and is determined to do the same with the conversation about ageing as he did for mental health, calling out ageism, campaigning for older people and encouraging all of us to prepare and plan for a happier, healthier, later life. He says, Day after day, I see the belief and hope that many charities bring to the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in this country. The volunteers and the voluntary sector staff are the belief makers. Paul Farmer, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Paul Farmer2:08

Thank you very much, Lauren. It's great to be here.

Presenter2:10

So I think we should start with belief-making, Paul. Tell me about that lovely phrase.

Paul Farmer2:15

I'm fortunate enough to work in a sector that brings hope and optimism to so many people's lives. It's creating that sense of belief that we can do things differently, we can make things better. And for me, it's changing big issues, it's changing causes that is the thing that I've really enjoyed doing so far.

Presenter2:35

And the latest big issue, of course, is aging. So you want to change the way that we talk about it, the way that we think about it and experience it. So you said that in many ways, we're in denial about the realities of aging. What are we not seeing?

Paul Farmer2:50

We've got this extraordinary situation now where people live for 20 or 30 years, even longer sometimes, after retirement. I'm not sure that we spend enough time thinking about how we want to spend that later life for our own well-being. There was a tradition in this country that people just moved to the seaside. And increasingly we're hearing that people were saying, well, what? I'm not sure I want to do that because I don't know anybody there. I don't have friends. Actually, the things I really want to do are go to art galleries or spend time with my friends or with my family. So we're not planning in that way. It's a little bit like the work we did in mental health. There's this sort of stigma about it, so people don't talk about it as much.

Presenter3:30

Yes, and I know that loneliness is a really big focus for you. Almost a million older people report that they are often lonely. That's a really sad statistic, isn't it?

Paul Farmer3:40

It's a terrible indictment of how many older people feel and how our society thinks about the loneliness and isolation of older people. In the world where I've come from, in mental health, it feels to me when I'm hearing older people talking about loneliness and isolation, it's the equivalent of younger people talking about depression and anxiety.

Presenter3:58

Yeah.

Presenter4:02

Well, and and it's we hear about it from younger people too, don't we, that sense of isolation. So so what do we do about that, about those older people and the feeling disconnected, feeling isolated?

Paul Farmer4:12

Connection is a huge part of what we do at Age UK. We connect people. Many of them are volunteer befrienders who give their time to spend a little bit of time with an older person. A lovely man called Stanley sadly died just this year, who I met in Lincoln at our local Age UK. His wife had died and he had lost all connection with his community, really. A befriender found him, they found each other, and he started to rediscover the thing he loved doing the most, which was to play the piano for people. Went along to a session and he was at the piano.

Speaker 44:47

Uh

Paul Farmer4:50

And there was a singing session with other older people singing. They got me to sing very badly. And you could see his sense of pride in what he was doing.

Speaker 14:53

They got

Speaker 14:55

Play

Speaker 14:59

Uh

Presenter4:59

Mm.

Paul Farmer5:01

He was connected back into his society.

Presenter5:04

And music. I mean, it's just such a healing force, isn't it, in those circumstances. Speaking of which, Paul, you're going to share yours with us. So I think we should get started with your first choice today, disc number one. What is it and why is it going to the island with you?

Paul Farmer5:12

The mess.

Paul Farmer5:19

So my first disc is Aretha Franklin, Think. She's the queen of soul, of course. For me, this is music at its very best. Her range, her voice, her experience. And it's a song obviously about freedom. And so for me, it's a clarion cry for campaigners on all kinds of issues. It's a reflection of what so many of us do in the charity sector to empower people to have a voice, to be more free. And so this is such a powerful wake-up song for all of us to think about what we can do.

Speaker 45:52

Be a

Speaker 45:54

Let your mind go, let yourself be free. I'm only a

Presenter6:17

Aretha Franklin and Think. So let's go back to the beginning, shall we, Paul Farmer? You were born in nineteen sixty six in Oxford, the eldest of two boys, to David and Anne. How would you describe family life when you were a little boy?

Paul Farmer6:31

So we were quite a quiet family, quite private family in many ways. We had a lot of sport in our life. You know, we have very fond memories of the summer of 76 where we spent a lot of time running around, playing lots of cricket, and then we're going to be a little bit more. Boiling hot. Boiling hot, exactly. Boiling hot summer. The other part of it was, I suppose, this kind of immersion in history because my father was an academic, history, academic, medieval historian. And so family holidays always involved castles, abbeys, private. Absolutely. Except in 1976, where it was always hot and sunny, but every other year it was nearly always pouring with rain somewhere. But that just gave me a sense of the heritage of this country.

Presenter6:43

Boiling hot the boiling hot

Speaker 16:44

Boiling hot exactly, boiling hot signs.

Speaker 16:58

Abbeys, property.

Speaker 17:01

Yeah, got it.

Presenter7:04

Every

Presenter7:12

Oh, how wonderful. Well, I had one of those childhoods too, so I can relate to that. So but your dad's story was very unusual, wasn't it? Because before he became an academic and a historian, he'd been a a monk, a Benedictine monk, for, what, twenty years?

Paul Farmer7:24

Yes, so not many people have a monk as a father. He was a Benedictine in an abbey in the Isle of Wight called Quaw Abbey. He was one of eight children, a large Catholic family, four of whom at some point or another were in religious orders of some description. It was a healthy contribution. He joined the Benedictines and was there as a monk for 20 or so years. His main focus academically was on saints, and he wrote a very well-known book, now The Oxford Dictionary of Saints, which

Speaker 47:39

Is there some description?

Speaker 47:40

Firstly,

Speaker 47:42

Yeah.

Speaker 17:42

Yeah.

Presenter7:51

Yeah.

Presenter7:55

Still in print.

Paul Farmer7:56

Still in print, it was one of the proudest things for me to do to help him produce the last edition. And I was his sort of junior researcher going off into using the internet to source some content for some of the newly canonized saints. And would he pull out?

Presenter8:04

Using

Presenter8:10

And would he pull out examples? Was it like, you know, oh, well, St Pancras wouldn't have approved of you doing, you know.

Paul Farmer8:15

His all-time favourites were Saint Bede and Saint Cuthbert.

Presenter8:19

Oh, that's the North East, a North East Catholic here, I've got to agree. Yeah, so I remember.

Paul Farmer8:19

That's the northeast view.

Paul Farmer8:23

So I remember being taken by my parents and three of his PhD students in a tiny car on what was described as a holiday to Jarrow, Monk Wehrmouth, to Durham, and having all the stories of Bede and Cuthbert instilled into me. And, you know, these incredible people whose connection to God was very powerful, but actually their ability also to communicate that to others.

Speaker 18:34

Uh Jarrah

Speaker 18:36

To Durham.

Presenter8:49

And as you said, you know, your dad lived a very long life, and you've described his experience as a guide star for the work that you're doing now. In what way?

Paul Farmer8:57

Well, he finally passed away only a couple of years ago, aged ninety eight. Very sadly, my mother died when she was in her mid sixties, so he spent nearly forty years of his life.

Presenter9:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Farmer9:07

On his own. There were about nearly 10 years between them. In many ways, what I saw in him, particularly in his later life, was somebody who both celebrated the opportunities that being older was. I remember one day he told me, I'm going on holiday, and I was very good, where are you going? Zimbabwe. I thought, okay, interesting. So he did embrace that kind of sense of opportunity. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 49:30

Yeah.

Paul Farmer9:31

But I also remember remember we ti I took him to Bruges for a weekend and we were standing on St Pancras station. He was probably in his mid eighties at that point, so he was a little bit shaky, I suppose. And

Speaker 19:41

Uh

Paul Farmer9:42

The train was called, and everybody just poured round him.

Presenter9:46

Yeah.

Paul Farmer9:46

As though he was a bag.

Presenter9:48

Mm. I've seen that. I've seen that before.

Paul Farmer9:50

And I thought before, oh gosh, you know, we're not really thinking, are we, about how older people are being treated. So that's a very strong image. And when I think we talk about ageism, that's a kind of an image for me about how do we make sure that in all our hurry and our rush to get on with our lives that we don't just ignore people.

Presenter10:11

So, I think we should have some music, Paul. It's your second choice today. What have you gone for?

Paul Farmer10:15

I grew up with a plain chant and polyphony on the record player. So this is the Annus Day from the Mass for Five Voices by William Bird. William Bird was writing this for recusant Catholics in the time of Elizabeth I. And if you can imagine small numbers of people in a tiny space worshiping in the face of real challenges.

Presenter10:39

So these are people what in secret chapels were singing this together.

Paul Farmer10:42

Yes, they're hiding from the authorities who are chasing after them in many ways. And it's such a strong, powerful voice of what faith feels like, I think. And in this piece it brings together these five voices and rises to a crescendo at the end in the the dona nobis pace which is give us your peace.

Presenter10:48

Yeah.

Presenter12:05

Part of the Agnes Day from William Bird's Mass for Five Voices performed by The Sixteen with Harry Christophers conducting.

Presenter12:13

So, Paul Farmer, we've talked about your dad, who just sounds wonderful. Tell me about your mum, Anne. How had she met your dad in the first place?

Paul Farmer12:20

Her father had died when she was very young during the war. It was a very traumatic experience. She was an only child and her and her mother were left on their own. And she was really very affected by this. And so she actually joined a convent herself and became a nun. So she was in a convent for a while and re-emerged in the 1960s. My father re-emerged in the 1960s and

Speaker 112:33

Um

Presenter12:46

Instant common ground.

Paul Farmer12:48

I think you uh you could kind of join the dots fairly easily. They found each other in Oxford. My father was teaching and researching, my mother was teaching as well. So they they connected they obviously had quite a lot in common. And so this is one of the things that both my parents had maybe as a result of their experiences with whilst they

Speaker 112:59

Yeah.

Paul Farmer13:05

Had a really strong connection to their faith and encouraged us to do the same. They were also quite rebellious, so they didn't necessarily see the institution of the church as something to just simply adhere to. So they would encourage us to think in a quite a constructively critical way, I suppose. My mother was a teacher in a convent school for a while until the day that she decided that she should wear trousers. So this would have been in the early 70s, I suppose. And at that point, that wasn't something that was approved of. She left the school because she wanted to make a stand about the ability of women to be able to wear whatever they wanted to. And I think it was quite a good example of how she and my father were prepared to say, yes, there are all these rules and so on and so forth, but don't.

Speaker 113:17

So they

Speaker 113:24

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 113:30

Mm-hmm.

Paul Farmer13:50

Don't just say they're the rules and you've got to follow them.

Presenter13:53

Yeah, so encouraging that critical thinking in you and your brother. So you were obviously, Paul, a very enthusiastic student. How did you get on at school? School was.

Paul Farmer14:03

I arrived in the school. I was very young. I got a scholarship into the school. So they they sort of decided that the

Paul Farmer14:10

What they called the third year, which was the equivalent of year nine, wasn't really worth bothering with. So I was propelled into the year ahead.

Presenter14:17

They just skip your head into what is that at the beginning of GCS? Yes. Oh, no.

Paul Farmer14:20

Yes. Oh no. I don't think that was very good for me, actually, because I was in a class with lots of people who were a lot older than I was, and I arrived.

Presenter14:23

See, um

Paul Farmer14:28

12 and most of the other people in the class were 13 and a half. You're physically small as well. Yes, I am physically small. And that also meant that you're, you know, I think you can become a target because you're different, you're standing out. But, you know, I think actually it was the learning and sport that probably carried me through. What was your sport? I would play anything, probably as an escape, to be honest. But I would play rugby, football, cricket. As I stopped growing, I would become further and further in the backs in rugby. I was quite quick.

Speaker 114:32

It doesn't sound like a lot.

Presenter14:47

Yeah.

Presenter14:58

And you're still it's sporty now, aren't you?

Paul Farmer15:01

So important for my mental health.

Presenter15:02

Didn't I hear that you've been doing walking cricket?

Paul Farmer15:04

Walking cricket. Well, so Lauren, we need to talk about walking sports. Can we just do that for a minute? Yeah.

Presenter15:07

Can we just do that for a minute? Yeah.

Paul Farmer15:10

So walking spores.

Presenter15:11

As a not naturally fast person, I'm all in. Go.

Paul Farmer15:13

Well, so walking sport is something which is as you can imagine is a kind of slightly slower version of running sports. Walking football, walking rugby, walking tennis, walking cricket and walking golf, or golf as it's called.

Paul Farmer15:30

And we encourage this because it's a really great way for older people to stay physically active. But it's also something that, again, creates that sense of connection because you go and spend time with other people and you have an argument about the score or whatever it might be. And in fact, I was up in Newcastle with our local AGK doing walking football. And my goodness, me, it's competitive. It's pretty serious.

Speaker 115:37

Dave.

Presenter15:53

Taking it seriously. They're not going fast, but they mean it. Oh, I love the sound of that. Definitely going to be getting involved. All right, Paul, let's have some more music. It's your third choice today. What's next and why?

Paul Farmer16:04

So my third disc is from the Communards. We're in the 1980s. This was my kind of awakening decade when it comes to music. The voice of Jimmy Somerville is just extraordinary. Of course it's the Reverend Richard Coles doing some of his finest work. And for me it was a student disco classic. It's Don't Leave Me This Way and it just reminds me of the Common Room in St Peter's, Sound of the 80s, the student discos, the sort of smell of lager.

Presenter17:01

The Communards and don't leave me this way, taking you back, Paul Farmer, to your student days. So I think that's where we should go next. You studied history at Oxford. Were you following in your dad's footsteps?

Paul Farmer17:12

Definitely. I think it was almost meant to be that I would do history. It was definitely my favourite subject at school and it's the only thing I really seriously thought about applying for. I went to St Peter's, which is a very unpretentious, lovely space and immediately I just found my home. I felt the combination of the people and being able to really immerse yourself in the subject was an utter joy.

Presenter17:37

Yeah, you've called it your best possible liberation. So from what?

Presenter17:41

Well, I think

Paul Farmer17:42

I was looking for something, and I hadn't found that something at school. School had did improve, but I definitely hadn't found my people. I hadn't found the kind of conversations, I suppose, that I really wanted to have. And so that Oxford was that place where suddenly you're surrounded by people who are similarly

Speaker 117:59

And

Paul Farmer18:05

really curious about the world, incredibly bright. They've also all got all everybody had all the insecurities that you have when you're 18 of not really being sure, not really knowing, but being curious to try and test things and being encouraged to do that was something that it just felt like a place, you know, where you could be yourself.

Speaker 118:21

Uh

Presenter18:21

Mm.

Presenter18:27

So, what if we'd met you back then? Who would we have been encountering? What would we have seen?

Paul Farmer18:32

Oh, terribly badly dressed. Awful hair.

Presenter18:36

What was the airline?

Paul Farmer18:36

Large glasses.

Presenter18:37

So big glasses, what was the hair doing?

Paul Farmer18:38

It was sort of long not not long, long, but just a bit just messy, really, a bit floppy. Eighties floppy. Yes, exactly. I'd like to think. I don't think it was as nearly as fashionable as that even.

Presenter18:42

Messy really, a bit floppy.

Speaker 418:44

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 418:48

Was that even?

Paul Farmer18:49

You would have seen somebody who was up a lot. I mean, both up awake a lot, but also engaging with people. I met some fantastic people, and I met a group of friends who are the most important friends I've had because they are still with me. There's a dozen of them, and we're all still going strong. And that is such an important foundation.

Presenter19:09

And that

Presenter19:12

And you also met your future wife, Claire, while you were there.

Paul Farmer19:15

I did.

Presenter19:15

How did it happen?

Paul Farmer19:17

My only friend from school who came to Oxford at the same time was at Lady Margaret Hall, Richard, and Clare was at Lady Margaret Hall and I met Clare through that group. I think I fell in love with her immediately. I think it's fair to say it took a while for us to get together.

Presenter19:31

So on her end she was there was a a bit of work to do.

Paul Farmer19:31

So one error

Paul Farmer19:34

There was work to do.

Presenter19:35

What was she studying?

Paul Farmer19:36

She was studying geography. She had um come back from doing a year's work with Mother Teresa in Calcutta. It was in awe of that and we were the closest of friends for a long time, in fact till after university, when we finally got together and everybody breathed a sigh of relief.

Presenter19:56

So you graduated in 1987 with your degree in history, but you didn't have a clear career path at that point. So what did you do?

Paul Farmer20:04

I did what everybody who has no idea what they want to do, go travelling. I went travelling with two of my Oxford friends, with Richard and Joe, for a year. We covered a lot of ground, eighteen countries. It was a joy. We had scrapes and fun along the way to become an adventurer and turn up in Cairo, our first stop. It was this extraordinary city. It was just sort of a sensory overload.

Presenter20:29

And what did you learn about yourself? Because you painted a picture of yourself at the beginning of Uni as being, you know, quite shy and a bit unsure of yourself, like enthusiastic, but not quite knowing who you were yet. Did that help you find yourself?

Paul Farmer20:43

I think definitely. You just have to open up your eyes and look at the wonder of the world. And no internet in those days, just a rather kind of dogged, lonely planet guy to help you find your way. And so I think you learn the art of conversation and you learn the art of asking people for help. And how do you, again, create that kind of sense of connection with other people who, in the first instance, you might not have anything in common with, but actually, then, through that incredible hospitality, you sit down, you have a cup of tea with people.

Speaker 121:01

And

Paul Farmer21:14

And you find a way to communicate.

Presenter21:15

It sounds like a fantastic trip, and I'm sure you learned a lot about yourself. We'll find out where it took you next in a moment. But first, I think we should have some more music. Your fourth disc. What's next and why?

Paul Farmer21:26

The Beautiful South have been a part of my life for a long time. They're definitely the kind of songs that we'd play in the car and car journeys, going on holiday with the children, and they've certainly always been there. And I love the witty lyrics of Paul Heaton and that beautiful voice of Jackie Abbott. So this song is Rotterdam, and they've actually chosen it because it talks about being alone in a city. And loneliness and isolation is something that I personally experienced, but I think I've also seen it so many times in my work in mental health and now with older people. And so for me, it's that kind of sense of really understanding what facing isolation can feel like.

Speaker 422:12

The whole place is pickled, the people are pickles for sure And no one knows that they've done more here than they ever would do in a job This could be Rotterdam or anywhere, Liverpool or Rome Cause Rotterdam is anywhere, anywhere alone

Speaker 422:35

Anywhere

Presenter22:39

The Beautiful South and Rotterdam.

Presenter22:44

So Paul Farmer, after university and after travelling, you found your way to working in a a historic trust, your history degree coming in very useful, and you fell in love with the charity sector. So after that you joined the Samaritans, and I know that that was a formative experience for you. Tell me about it. Why?

Paul Farmer23:01

I arrived at the Samaritans as a press officer. I think I'd be honest and say I didn't really know very much about what that entailed. But as soon as I walked in the door of the organisation I felt like I'd found a true home. It was clearly fulfilling a really important function in society.

Paul Farmer23:21

And it was doing it very quietly, actually. It was just doing its job. 25,000 volunteers.

Speaker 123:23

Right.

Paul Farmer23:28

Millions of calls from people who were lonely, isolated.

Paul Farmer23:33

feeling suicidal. I suppose my job was to try to tell that story to a wider audience, to try to encourage people to call. That task of picking up the phone.

Paul Farmer23:45

And ringing the Samaritans is not easy for somebody.

Speaker 123:47

Hmm.

Speaker 123:48

Mm-hmm.

Paul Farmer23:49

So how could we make that easier for people, and to give people that sense that there was somebody there, even in the middle of the night, even in your darkest moment?

Presenter23:57

And for you, you know, you were that person for people who called in sometimes. What was that like for you? I know that's the experience that you say made you a campaigner.

Paul Farmer24:06

Yes, I became a listening volunteer. I learnt two things actually. The first thing was the power of listening. I think as a leader, it's incredibly important to be a good listener and not just to listen to the words, but to listen to what's going on in between the words, to listen to the gaps and the silences. And the second thing I learnt was.

Speaker 124:22

See?

Paul Farmer24:28

The experiences of many people who were calling were that they had mental health problems, and Samaritans could do something to help.

Paul Farmer24:38

But we could only do a certain amount. So that connection to those callers was an absolute driver for campaigning work in mental health.

Presenter24:46

And how easily did you adapt to having those conversations? I mean, you must have been still quite young to talk to people in crisis, in their most difficult moments. That's no small thing.

Paul Farmer24:57

I've always felt like I can listen to people.

Paul Farmer25:01

Maybe it's living in a quiet house or maybe it was being at university, it was probably all of those things. But I kind of felt like I could listen, I can give people time in that sense, and being able to give people time as a Samaritan volunteer is precious.

Presenter25:21

So Paul, you then moved on to Rethink Mental Illness, which was formerly known as the National Schizophrenia Fellowship. Tell me a bit more about making that move from listening to actively campaigning.

Paul Farmer25:33

So I loved the Samaritans dearly. At the time, as an organisation, they didn't really see themselves as a campaigning organisation, and I was getting very fired up about the need to do some campaigning. So I got a job at Rethink and was able to again learn the art of campaigning and influencing. I turned up at Rethink in 1997. I went to my first party conference, the Labour Conference of 1997. We had a fringe meeting to talk about mental health and mental illness. There were more people on the panel than there were in the audience. Oh my god, so how many in the audience then? What? I mean, three. Three. And it was 1997. There was quite a lot of partying, I think, given the nature of where the Labour Party were at the time.

Presenter26:03

Oh my god.

Presenter26:06

Tray.

Presenter26:08

Yeah.

Presenter26:12

They're all listening to Dee Ream and all of that at that point. Conceivably. So it couldn't be more different now. You know, what did that tell you about how far you had to go, where things were?

Paul Farmer26:14

Conceivably.

Paul Farmer26:20

So I think we knew that mental health was hugely stigmatized.

Presenter26:24

I mean, would we even have used the phrase mental health at that point? I feel like it was, you know, mental illness you would hear about, but it wasn't even in common usage.

Paul Farmer26:32

We definitely didn't think about the idea that we all have mental health. Mental illness was something that other people had. In kind of tabloid terms, it was schizo, knife, axe, murderer, that kind of language. So people were pushed to the margins. And despite the fact that one in this is not a new number, but one in four people experienced mental health problems, the image in the public's eye, in the media eye, in the politicians' eyes was of this group of people who were dangerous, basically.

Speaker 126:53

Yeah.

Presenter27:02

Mm-hmm.

Paul Farmer27:03

And therefore people didn't want to talk about it, they were frightened.

Presenter27:05

Alright, Paul, it's time to go to the music. Your fifth choice today. What are we going to hear?

Paul Farmer27:10

It is Nina, it is Nina Simone, it's feeling good.

Paul Farmer27:14

I'm going to be 60 this year. I'm absolutely fully embracing the whole idea of later life and it's a tribute actually for me to helping to age gracefully or maybe age disgracefully. And for me it's also that reminder of that positive contribution that older people can make.

Speaker 427:34

Fishing sea, you know how I feel.

Speaker 427:40

River running free, you know how I feel.

Speaker 427:46

Blossom on the tree, you know how I feel.

Speaker 427:51

It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

Speaker 427:57

For me and I'm feeling good.

Presenter28:04

Nina Simone and Feeling Good. So Paul Farmer, in two thousand six, you landed what you called the best job in mental health as the CEO of Mind. What attracted you to the job?

Paul Farmer28:15

I'd already fallen in love with mental health as a cause. The MINED job was just the job to do in the sector. And MINED has got this fantastic heritage of being a campaigning organisation that stood up against all kinds of injustices over many decades. And it was absolutely a dream job for me. But it was time to get going because the issue to tackle was stigma. Because everything went back to the stigma around mental health. This dark cloud that hung over the narrative, the conversations that we're having publicly, but much more importantly than that, the dark cloud that hung over individuals' lives on a day-to-day basis. Trying to get a house, trying to get a job, trying to have a relationship. The stigma was blocking people from having a normal life.

Speaker 128:38

Because

Speaker 129:01

Yeah.

Presenter29:02

Mm.

Presenter29:08

So Paul, that was the Time to Change campaign, and it lasted for an unbelievable fifteen years from its launch in two thousand seven. What would you say were the key successes over that time?

Paul Farmer29:20

So we were tracking public opinion, and we could see that there was improvement happening. And in 2013, at Halloween.

Paul Farmer29:28

Asda put on their online store a costume for Halloween called Mental Patient. It was blood splattered, and you could buy for an additional two pounds ninety nine a plastic cleaver. Our campaigners spotted it.

Paul Farmer29:44

And this is in the early days of social media, and celebrities like Alastair Campbell and others and Stephen Fry, who was supporting us at the time, came into the campaign. Two hours later, the product was withdrawn.

Speaker 129:46

Uh

Paul Farmer29:58

And at that moment, we thought we're onto something here. The tide was changing. That costume in previous years, nobody would have batted Nylid about. Now,

Speaker 130:02

Hmm.

Presenter30:08

That

Paul Farmer30:10

It wasn't acceptable.

Presenter30:11

So you were doing a lot of work at this point, and you were on a work and pensions panel that you actually resigned from in twenty twelve, and that was over the work capability assessment. You said you had a moral dilemma. Why did you decide to walk away? What was that dilemma?

Paul Farmer30:27

So for lots of us as charities, we have to make sure that we retain our independence. Our independence is hugely important to the way in which the people who support us see us, and we have to really hold that very strongly.

Paul Farmer30:43

But we also want to deliver change and so when you deliver change you engage with any government, whatever political party is running it. And in this case we were engaging with a then Conservative government on changes to welfare benefits and I was invited to join a group to review the work capability assessment which is basically the way in which people's applications for benefits are decided with a particular focus on mental health. And it's sometimes the case that some departments in some governments at some time set up working groups in order to validate an answer, an answer which has probably already been predetermined and that's what it felt like. It really wasn't an easy choice. I think my instincts are usually to try to collaborate and create change from the inside but in this case it just became really apparent that wasn't possible. And I think ultimately probably better changes were made in the long term but it took a long time.

Presenter31:41

Paul, it's time for some more music, your sixth choice today. What's next?

Paul Farmer31:46

Well, we're going to Nick Cave into my arms. Nick Cave is an extraordinary singer and songwriter. I know you've talked to him here on Desert Island Discs.

Presenter31:56

Yeah.

Paul Farmer31:57

This song is just one of the most extraordinary songs. He described it as a mutual embrace and a lifeline that connects people in their humanity, mortality and love. And I saw him a couple of years ago. I was lucky enough to see him. And this song was one of the most powerful experiences I think I've ever had in a concert venue. It makes me think about the people I love. Claire, my boys, my family, my friends, and how grateful I am for their love and support. The song is about the power of connection, but it also describes how you feel when that love is absent.

Speaker 432:35

Into my arms.

Speaker 432:39

Oh no.

Speaker 432:41

Into my arms, O Lord.

Speaker 432:46

Into my own

Speaker 432:49

Uh

Speaker 432:49

Oh no.

Speaker 432:51

Into my own

Speaker 432:59

And I don't believe in the existence of angels.

Presenter33:05

Nick Ave and the Bad Seeds and Into My Arms. So, Paul Farmer, you married Claire in nineteen ninety four and the two of you had two sons, but in twenty seventeen she was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer, which must have been a huge shock. Did you know straightaway that her condition was very serious?

Paul Farmer33:23

Yes, it was the kind of best of times, worst of times as a year. I was doing a huge report on mental health in the workplace. Everything was going well. We got in the car, we were going to an event for one of our godchildren, and I remember just looked into her eyes, and her eyes were yellow.

Paul Farmer33:44

And I said you've

Speaker 133:44

Um

Paul Farmer33:45

Darling, your eyes are yellow. You look like you've got jaundice, and that's what it looks like.

Speaker 133:51

Mm.

Paul Farmer33:51

Immediately it was clear that something was very wrong.

Paul Farmer33:55

We got very quick help, actually a quick diagnosis of a rare liver cancer called bile duct cancer, which doesn't have a great survival rate, and I suppose we were always on an uphill struggle.

Speaker 434:10

Yeah.

Paul Farmer34:10

But you try, don't you? You try your best to try to find the right treatment, to get the right help.

Speaker 434:12

You're trying your best.

Speaker 134:13

Uh

Speaker 434:15

2.

Speaker 134:16

Yeah.

Paul Farmer34:17

to get the right support. Our oldest Ben was at university. Our youngest Tom was doing his GCSEs when in twenty nineteen, the worst day,

Presenter34:24

Yeah.

Speaker 134:25

Yeah.

Paul Farmer34:32

When she died.

Presenter34:33

Yeah. She was she went into treatment and sh she'd actually been made one of the first professors of human geography, hadn't she, while she was in hospital. You got the letter.

Paul Farmer34:36

Yeah.

Paul Farmer34:39

This is not a

Paul Farmer34:41

In the hospital, you got the letter? Yes. Claire's academic work was extraordinary. She was in many ways an academic before her time. She had done a PhD as a geographer back in the 90s on the experiences of young Muslim women in Watford. She grew into a very respected and highly renowned geographer covering faith. And we used to have loads of conversations about faith, about gender. She was a very strong feminist, and we used to have lots of conversations about that, about migration and youth. And whilst all this treatment was going on, we were in Hammersmith Hospital one day. She was in the hospital receiving some treatment and wasn't coping that well. And an email comes in, and she typically Claire, she would have her phone and still kind of be working, even though she really couldn't. And there was an email saying, you've been made a professor.

Paul Farmer35:35

which is a kind of definition of bittersweet moments. Hardly any women geographers as professors and here we were in this moment where she was being given this fabulous accolade. At the same time she was not really far away from death.

Presenter35:52

I mean, she sounds absolutely extraordinary, and it must have been devastating to to lose her for you and your boys, I can't imagine. But also, you know, the pandemic must have followed pretty quickly, so it must have been doubly traumatic and incr just surreal to to go through that while grieving.

Paul Farmer36:10

Claire died in july twenty nineteen, and I think it's fair to say that the next six months were a total blur, propped up by the support of friends, family, our local community in Hamwell and Ealing, but very much propped up, I think.

Presenter36:24

Pything.

Paul Farmer36:25

And then the pandemic.

Presenter36:26

Mm.

Paul Farmer36:27

Ben came back from university, there were three of us in the house, and that was really tough because it just felt wrong.

Speaker 436:34

Mm-hmm.

Paul Farmer36:37

we were in this space built for four, and there were three of us. But I think in some ways it was helpful because we were together as a three and we were able to talk. And I think we did quite a lot of our grieving in that space.

Speaker 436:39

Jupiter.

Speaker 136:39

There were three of us.

Speaker 436:41

Yeah.

Presenter36:51

And for you, I mean, obviously CEO of a large charity, on top of all that, how on earth did you keep going?

Paul Farmer36:59

I actually don't know. In hindsight, I mean, at the time, I just thought.

Paul Farmer37:05

We've got a mental health crisis facing the country, so and actually an organizational challenge because we didn't you know, the shops were shut, where's the money going to come from?

Speaker 137:13

Shops with sharp where

Speaker 437:15

Uh

Paul Farmer37:16

I I don't think I've ever worked so hard.

Paul Farmer37:18

I just actually don't know how I coped. I got by because of the people around me, my friends, the friendship group, the family.

Presenter37:25

The French

Presenter37:26

What did they do to support you?

Paul Farmer37:27

Do you think that's a good idea?

Paul Farmer37:28

I think the most important thing was that people were there and people would check in.

Presenter37:31

And they

Paul Farmer37:33

I probably was just a girl, that's really nice that they've got in touch. And as you reflect on it, you think people were really looking out for us. And that gift of generosity and hospitality from people around you is so, so important when you're

Speaker 137:42

Yeah.

Paul Farmer37:51

experiencing that very profound sense of grief.

Presenter37:54

And I don't know how the time lines for these things work for me, you know, thinking about the losses in my life. It's one of those things where you can't believe it's all that time and yet it feels like five minutes. I mean, has the way that you carry your grief today for Claire changed over that time?

Paul Farmer38:10

In a very deep sense, no. She's always there. She's in in my soul. She's in my heart. She's in my house. We have two brilliant boys who remind me every day of her and her.

Presenter38:24

You're saying this with the biggest smile, which is lovely to see.

Paul Farmer38:27

Both of them are just the most incredible credit to her. She was a brilliant mother and a mother who.

Paul Farmer38:36

cared deeply, deeply for both of them, and you just see the product of that in them, and that gives you a a leap of joy in amongst a sea of grief.

Presenter38:41

Um

Presenter38:45

Paul, I think we'd better go to the music. It's your seventh choice today. What are you taking to the island next?

Paul Farmer38:51

So one of the things that has really helped after Claire died has been the support of friends and in particular a group of men who got together and formed a music club and for me music and exploring new music has been really helpful for me personally as a place to go, something I probably didn't do that much of. And so this track is by a band that probably nobody's heard of called Westside Cowboy. I saw them at a festival and I've subsequently seen them at a gig and they're a new and up and coming band. Who knows if they're going to be the next best thing or not.

Presenter39:31

Well, if they're going on desert island discs, it's a pretty good start, isn't it?

Paul Farmer39:34

It's hopefully. They epitomise for me what happens when you go and listen to some new music and it opens your mind and it opens your heart. For me, also the support of the music club group was also a really important part of me as I was working my way through my grief. So this is Westside Cowboy, the drunk surfer.

Presenter40:24

Westside Cowboy, the drunk surfer. So Paul Farmer, you took over Age UK in twenty twenty two. Why was that the right time to move to your new role?

Paul Farmer40:34

I loved working at Mind. As I said, it was the best job in mental health. I'd been there for 16 years. I think that's a very long time for anybody to do a job. I think it was a moment for me to look for something different but close. A lot of the work we do at Age UK is in fact mental health work by another name. But I could also see the connection with the issues around stigma and ageism as a form of stigma, which prevents older people and society's perceptions of older people from getting to the kind of place that we really should get to. So huge challenge and I really wanted to walk into that challenge and see if I can make a difference.

Speaker 141:05

Button.

Presenter41:21

And for you personally, you mentioned that you are turning sixty later this year. Has being in that job and working on those projects helped you to look forward? Because your plans for yourself personally must have been completely upended in the years preceding this and losing Claire?

Paul Farmer41:25

Do you

Paul Farmer41:38

I think when I started to really think about this job and the cause of aging, first of all I immediately realized how little I'd really thought about it. I just made a sort of flat packed set of assumptions that you'd unpack at some point around me and Claire being together

Paul Farmer41:54

doing all the kinds of things that you do in retirement, but never had a conversation about it. But of course, as soon as you start thinking about that, you think about all the other older people who are in all kinds of different spaces. You've got people who are

Paul Farmer42:09

Despite the fact that people think that all older people are wealthy, there's so many people who face significant poverty. And although we're living for longer, we're not living more healthily for longer.

Presenter42:20

Yes, this is one of the really interesting statistics. So the Health Foundation published a study earlier this year and that talked about the healthy life expectancy of people in the UK, and that's declined by a couple of years to sixty one. So that's looking at this idea of health span rather than lifespan. I mean, why are we going backwards?

Paul Farmer42:40

I think there's a lot of reasons. There seems to be good recognition that diet, lack of exercise, the sort of pressures of modern life mean that we don't have the level of health that we did in a previous generation. As we age, there are some conditions which almost inevitably are more likely to come on. So you're more likely to have challenges with your eyesight or your hearing or dementia, which is one of the biggest challenges that we face in later life. And that impacts on the idea of healthy life expectancy. So we have to think about what we should do, and all of us, I'm encouraging all of us to do this, to think about our own health. So there's things we can do, but we have to tackle it because the consequences for the health service of a population that is increasingly unhealthy are huge.

Speaker 143:03

You more

Presenter43:36

I mean, we talked about belief makers at the beginning of the program. What beliefs would you like listeners to change or take away from our conversation today about older age and older people? What can we drop and what should we keep from today?

Paul Farmer43:51

I think we should keep the idea of the contribution that older people make to society. We should drop the idea that when you reach a certain age you should just sit in a corner and be quiet. And I think we should keep the idea of connection and we should drop the idea of loneliness and isolation being almost inevitable.

Presenter44:12

Well, speaking of loneliness and isolation, unfortunately for you, we are about to cast you away to the desert island, which might be a pretty lonely experience. How will you be all by yourself there? You are a collaborator by nature, I know.

Paul Farmer44:25

I'm a collaborator, I'm a people person, I'm really not going to like this very much, I don't think. I've got a few strategies in place to try to make the most of it, to also try and make the most of it, but

Presenter44:36

Talk me through the strategies.

Paul Farmer44:37

I think it'll be good.

Presenter44:38

How are you approaching it?

Paul Farmer44:39

Well, first of all, I'm always struck on designists that people rarely talk about Shakespeare and the Bible, which of course are the first two books. I need to perform. And I think I've decided I don't need an audience, so I will learn the entirety of Shakespeare's canon and perform them to the creatures that may or may not be interested.

Presenter44:59

Fantastic. Your falstaff will be unleashed. It will be incredible.

Paul Farmer45:01

It would be incredible.

Presenter45:04

So, what about any other strategies? I mean, will anything that you've learned with your work at mind, will that help you support your mental health?

Paul Farmer45:11

The things that I do to look after my mental health is physical activity and taking an interest in the world around you. So obviously I have this image of a kind of deep hinterland, lots of sort of jungle to explore and lots of nature. At mine, we did a lot of work on thinking about how good nature is for your mental health. I think we coined the term ecotherapy. So for once, it would give me a chance to slow down and take advantage of nature.

Presenter45:39

Okay, so that's the silver lining that you can look forward to on your island. Well, we will also let you have one more track before we send you there. Your final choice today, please, Paul Farmer. What is it?

Paul Farmer45:42

Cody Riley.

Paul Farmer45:48

So this is the song for Claire. It's The Proclaimers, Sunshine Unleith. We love The Proclaimers. It was their songs in the car on holiday. Claire's sisters both live in Scotland, so we've got this very Scottish connection. This song immediately reduced me to tears for quite a long time and still gets me very close. But it's my personal tribute to her.

Speaker 446:10

I will I'm what

Speaker 446:14

Reborn the Sun.

Speaker 446:29

Why of the chief?

Speaker 446:33

Sunshine on me.

Speaker 446:37

Oh.

Presenter46:39

Sunshine Unleith the Proclaimers. So, Paul Farmer, it is time you are off to the island. So, you will get the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, which, as we've heard, is going to be incredibly useful. And you can take one other book. What's that going to be?

Speaker 446:45

Yeah.

Paul Farmer46:53

So, I'd love to read more poetry while I'm on the island. I'd like to take some poems by Simon Armitage.

Presenter47:00

Another former castaway?

Paul Farmer47:01

who I love. The only problem is that Simon Armitage only produces very small books of poetry, and I'm a little bit worried about this. So we got in touch with his team and asked if he would contribute a boxed set of his collected works.

Presenter47:16

A complete work. So it'll have to be stitched together, mind you. I can't give you more than one book.

Paul Farmer47:17

Yeah.

Paul Farmer47:20

Well, he said that it would be specifically designed both waterproof and termite resistant, so I'm hoping, Lauren, you'll give me that.

Presenter47:25

So

Presenter47:27

Absolutely, I will, with pleasure.

Paul Farmer47:29

Okay.

Presenter47:30

You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Paul Farmer47:33

I love playing sport, cricket and tennis in particular, so I'd like a bowling machine, obviously solar powered, with about a hundred balls, fifty tennis balls, fifty cricket balls.

Presenter47:43

So you want them to be limited. You don't want unlimited.

Paul Farmer47:46

Yes, because when I hit them I have to go and get them and put them back in the bowling machine. So that will keep me active, keep me moving. I think my skills will just about get to making some kind of bat or racket. So that's why I'd be happy with a hundred or so. If you give me two hundred, that'd be even better.

Presenter47:53

Okay.

Speaker 147:53

Yeah.

Presenter48:03

Oh, fantastic. You can have as many as you like. And finally, which one track of the eight that you shared with us today would you save from the waves first?

Paul Farmer48:10

It uh has to be Sunshine on Leath by the proclaimers.

Presenter48:14

Paul Farmer, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Paul Farmer48:18

Thank you so much, Lauren.

Presenter48:32

Hello, it was lovely chatting to Paul Farmer. I hope he's very happy on his island, running, I mean, walking, walk, don't run, after those cricket balls. There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive for you to listen to. We've cast away many other campaigners over the years, including Marjorie Wallace, Julia Cleverdon, and Sue Ryder, Baroness Ryder of Warsaw. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Disc's website. The studio manager for today's programme was Jackie Marjoram, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the content editor was Mugabe Turia, and the producers were Sarah Taylor and Hannah Hufford. Join me next time when I'll be casting away the singer and songwriter Shania Twain.

Presenter49:39

Gods and monsters, wandering heroes and barefooted philosophers.

Presenter49:44

That's how we often think about ancient Greece, but it's much more varied and more curious than that.

Presenter49:51

I'm Mary Beard and in Being Greek, my new podcast from BBC Radio 4, I'll be telling the stories of the real people of ancient Greece.

Presenter50:02

From a mobster with dangerous ambitions if you're a would-be emperor then emperors have power to do whatever the hell they like really to the unrepentant husband who's murdered his wife's lover

Speaker 150:15

Those of us who go in first see him lying on the bed beside my wife. Those who came in in the second wave see him standing naked. Uh

Presenter50:23

The

Speaker 150:23

Subscribe.

Presenter50:24

But

Speaker 150:24

To being

Presenter50:24

Greek with Mary Beard on BBC Sounds.

Speaker 150:27

Yeah.