Norman Cook

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the DJ and musician Norman Cook. Perhaps better known as Fat Boy Slim, he's previously operated under many aliases. Pizzaman, Chiggy Boy, Freak Power, Sunnyside Up, the Brighton Port Authority, Beats International, the Mighty Dubcats, the House Martins, and before any of that, when he was growing up in what he calls suburban hell, but which you might know better as Rygate, Quentin Leo Cook. As a DJ, he's played everywhere from Bondi Beach and the Great Wall of China to the House of Commons. He's played every Glastonbury Festival since 1997, though he's famously never invoiced for a performance. His awards include the Guinness World Record for most number one singles by one musician in different acts, the Outstanding Contribution to UK Music from the Music Producers Guild, and a Gold Award from the Sussex Partnership Trust for the DJ workshops he provides to those struggling with their mental health in his adoptive hometown of Brighton. He has, to coin a phrase, come a long way, baby. He says, my love of music involves sharing it with other people. If I hear a new tune, I've got to play it with someone. Like a tree falling in the forest and no one hearing it. If I don't share these tunes with people, for me, they don't have a life. Norman Cook, welcome to Dazza Island Disc. Thank you very much. Can I just say I'm probably one of your more welcome castaways?

Norman Cook2:00

Thank you.

Presenter2:04

Just the sound of the inch alley. I'm throwing myself off the boat. I want to be castaway. I'm very, very honored to be here on this island. Well, what I love is that you're perfectly set up for life as a castaway because the Hawaiian shirt is your trademark and you get to have a turntable in records with you. So, till the next time. We were questioning what format the music would be in. I'm very honored to be here, Lauren. Thank you.

Norman Cook2:06

Yeah.

Norman Cook2:10

Yeah.

Norman Cook2:21

Yeah.

Presenter2:27

All right, Norman. Well, of course, another reason that you're perfectly positioned to take part in Desert Island Discs is that you are an expert selector. But I have been a bit worried in the run-up about you narrowing down your music choices to just eight. How has that been for you? It's a bit like saying, which of your children would you like to kill first? So there's so many tunes that I would love to have. But I think these are I've kind of picked eight that would endure and they would have some purpose rather than just

Norman Cook2:52

Mm-hmm.

Presenter2:56

It would have some purpose for me in the. At home you are a self-confessed vinyl junkie. How big is your collection?

Norman Cook2:56

They would have some purpose.

Norman Cook2:58

They are

Presenter3:04

It topped off at 8,000. It was basically kind of two walls. And then I kind of thought that should be it. So I would cull to stop it going. One in one out after that. Yeah, yeah. When vinyl kind of, you know, we stopped using it. And then I carried on using it until I, you know, I was like the last man standing. But when I went digital, I was like, what do I do with this? And then Zoe, my then-wife, said, you know, what are you going to do with all those records? You know, should we just bin them? And I was like, I can't. These are part of my life. Yeah. They really are part of my life. So I decided I would leave them to my son. And everyone said, like, oh, yeah, he's really going to love that. You know, like half.

Norman Cook3:12

Morning, morning.

Norman Cook3:32

Yeah.

Norman Cook3:40

You know, like half.

Presenter3:41

Half a ton of old, you know, completely redundant you know well just a redundant thing, but in the as he's grown up, vinyls sort of come back and now he absolutely love treasures my vinyl collection. So I'm glad I kept it. Oh, how lovely. It's meticulously um catalogued. As you will find out about me, I do like things in order.

Norman Cook3:41

Yeah.

Norman Cook3:43

You know,

Presenter4:00

Ah, I'm very excited to hear that. Okay. In a way, this challenge is kind of the opposite of the day job for you as well, because obviously, you know, being a DJ is all about creating a vibe for other people, reading the room, like responding to the audience, the people who are kind of there to see you play. But here on the island, there's no crowd to please. Has that been a nice part of it for you? No, no, that would be probably my worst nightmare about it. I mean, you know, I had a little of that during lockdown.

Speaker 24:19

Get out.

Norman Cook4:20

No.

Presenter4:28

You know, not being able to show off and perform and share my music was like that. It's kind of like this abyss of nothing. So, I know, I mean, I am a performer, I'm a show-off, and that defines me. So, I'm going to really struggle. I think this is why I need some of the music to really just chill me out and persuade me that everything's okay. Because, yeah, without an audience, I'm sort of not quite myself. And tell me a bit more about that role and the role of the DJ. I know that a friend of yours once described you as a shepherd of moments, which I think you quite liked. I thought that was very poetic, yeah. And when I see somebody really like having a musical moment or a couple absolutely snogging each other's faces off, I'm like, yes, my work here is done. It's a privilege to be doing the soundtrack to People's Nights How.

Norman Cook5:08

I mean I would

Presenter5:13

Lots of listeners will remember the Big Beach boutique shows. Two hundred fifty thousand people came to the two thousand two event, and you've been doing them periodically ever since. That one was the subject of a documentary. I mean, what's it like playing to a quarter of a million people on the beach in your hometown?

Presenter5:31

It was fought with difficulty because we had too many people there and because I'd spent all afternoon with the police explaining to them, you know, at one point they were going to call it off and then we realised it would be more dangerous not to do it than to do it. All right, Norman, let's get to the music. What's your first track today? The first track today is Grandmaster Flash Adventures and Wheels of Steel. This is a really pivotal record in my development from wanting to be in a pop band to wanting to be a creative DJ. So I'd been playing at school discos and weddings and nightclubs. But when I heard Grandmaster Flash DJ, he was doing stuff with the records that I'd never heard done before. So was this scratching for the first time that you heard? It was scratching, but it was more than that. If you listen to this tune, it's like it hops from one tune to another. And if you listen to this, you can hear a lot of where I got my influence from. Not so much. I mean, the scratching was great, but it has a bit of it. It's just mixing between two decks with different tracks and kind of putting them together. Yeah, making a collage, either playing them one tune on top of another one or just cutting between the two really quickly. And it just blew my mind. And from wanting to be, you know, bass player in a punk band for most of my sort of teenage years, now I wanted to be, you know, DJing in a nightclub. And it took that control of the crowd one step further. You're now manipulating the music in a way that's really like moving people's heads. So yeah, this record just changed my life. And Grandmaster Flash changed my DJing style. And I thank him for that.

Norman Cook5:59

Also tell me.

Norman Cook6:03

To re

Norman Cook6:11

They won't.

Norman Cook6:22

Yeah, that's a bit of a

Speaker 36:59

Excellent.

Presenter6:59

Uh

Speaker 37:00

You see

Speaker 37:01

Yeah.

Presenter7:01

He say, he say, he say, he say, he say one for the trouble, two for the time. Come on girls, let's rock that.

Norman Cook7:08

55 friends told me everybody's lied DJ is spinning, I said my mind Flash is bad, flash is bad, flash is bad Flash is cool, francois if I flush a don't do

Presenter7:19

He says one for the trouble, two for the time. Come on girls, let's rock that.

Presenter7:29

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, the adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel and I have to say amazing air scratching that you're doing there, Norman Cook. Yes, yes, some people play air guitar, but I know that record so well I can scratch the whole thing in midair. That was my party trick in nightclubs. So let's go back to the pre-Norman era.

Speaker 27:47

Reichelie, you were born.

Presenter7:47

From Quentin Lioko.

Speaker 27:49

broke in 1963. 63, the youngest of three children, to your parents, Ron and Rose, and they preferred you to call them by their first names, didn't they?

Presenter7:56

Yeah, my parents were quite liberal and progressive and especially my mum, she was kind of like a wannabe hippie. Right. And at some point when I was quite young, she did not want to be called mum and dad anymore. So it was Ron and Roz and I don't know, but they were quite progressive parents. My dad was an environmentalist and my mum was a teacher but one but who wanted to live in a commune. So did that progressive outlook extend to music and culture, the arts, all of that?

Norman Cook8:03

Is that

Presenter8:21

Dad was a consumer show-off. Oh, right. So that's where that comes from. Yeah. And he, yeah, would dress up and sing you a song at the drop of a hat. What would you dress up as?

Norman Cook8:24

Right, so that's where that comes from.

Presenter8:32

Women, quite a lot. What would happen? There'd be what, like a do on a party in the house, and then he'd go upstairs and yeah, he would go upstairs. And if it was our house, he would get his stuff out. Where if somebody else's house, he would go up and find some of their clothing, come back down in it. He would go upstairs and at someone else's house and rummage through the wardrobe. Probably with their permission. I don't think he wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't like a weird thing. And my mum would dress up. So, yeah, there was a lot of hijinks. I had a very happy childhood. You said that your dad was an environmentalist. He was actually known as Mr. Bottlebank. Yes. How did he earn the nickname? When he introduced Bottlebanks to England, he worked for a glass company and they were the first glass company to have a recycling plant. They said to him, You're going to be an environmental manager. There's this thing in Germany and Holland where people have bottle banks, and you've got to talk English people into saving all their old bottles and then once a week going down to a car park and putting them in a skip, which seemed like quite a difficult thing to do, but he kind of pulled it off. So, yeah, he introduced bottle banks to England. He got the MBE for it.

Norman Cook8:38

Yeah, he

Norman Cook8:42

Or somebody else is actually.

Norman Cook8:50

Probably

Norman Cook8:51

Oh my god.

Norman Cook9:01

Yes.

Presenter9:31

And I mean, what a story for your dad, really, to get the MBE because he had a story of social mobility, really. He'd been evacuated, hadn't he, and then gone to grammar school? Yeah, my granddad was a window cleaner and they lived in Newcross, very working-class family. But my dad got evacuated to a place just outside Lewis to stay in the stables of a really rich family. And the rich families took him under their wing, got him into a grammar school. And when the war ended, he came back. It's like, you know, Peter, I'd like to go to grammar school, please. And my granddad was like, what? So my dad went to a good school and became sort of middle class. And I've always been kind of stuck between one generation of my family become completely working class and then my dad being really middle class. Yeah, I want to hear your second disc now. What's your choice for this one and why?

Norman Cook10:13

Uh

Presenter10:19

Well second is we're harking back now to my childhood in the 60s. So this record will always remind me of my parents. And I was born in 1963, which is when they started. So literally that was the soundtrack of my early years. And then thought my uncle, Dennis, was in the Beatles. But why did you think that? He was in a pop band called The Fables and they used to rehearse in my nan's front room in New Cross. And when I used to go stay with my nan, they would allow me to sit in. And now this, for me, was just like the most exciting thing ever. There's a drum kit, there's amplifiers. So I watched them rehearse. And one afternoon, they spent the whole afternoon rehearsing Lucy in the sky with diamonds and ooh blah dee blah da. A couple days later, I hear ooh blah dee blah dah on the radio and I went, oh that's my uncle's band.

Presenter11:04

And they said, your uncle's in the Beatles. I went, oh, yeah, they rehearse at my man's house. And I wasn't aware of the concept of a cover version at this point.

Norman Cook11:06

To the Beatles.

Presenter11:13

If I have golden slumbers, it's going to go into carry that weight at some point. And in fact, right there, most aside twos are medleys, so I might be able to squeeze that onto the MP3 and get five tracks for the price of one. And you know, as life works out, Paul McCartney became your neighbour, yes, didn't he? What was that like, sort of sharing, you know, just looking over the garden fence and seeing Paul McCartney? That was quite bizarre. There's certain people, he's lovely, but there's certain people you just never get over the fact that that is Paul McCartney. But it was quite surreal because we live on the beach. He would just stroll into my kitchen wearing speed-offs and just say, oh yeah.

Speaker 311:18

Two trucks.

Speaker 211:33

Yeah.

Presenter11:47

I won't do an impersonation of him. Every time I talk to him, I would always be humming a Beatles tune in my head and think to myself, don't do it out loud. Don't do it out loud.

Norman Cook11:52

Yeah.

Norman Cook11:58

Dance numbers fill your eyes.

Norman Cook12:04

Thanks, Maa!

Norman Cook12:07

And go

Presenter12:07

Awake you wake you rise

Presenter12:12

Sleepy darling, do not cry.

Speaker 312:19

And I will sing on a bite

Presenter12:23

The Beatles and Golden Slumbers carry that weight. So Norman Cook, we've heard a bit about your dad. Tell me more about your mum, Rose. What did she do for a living? She was a teacher. She's lovely. I've lost both my parents in the last year. So it's weird. It's reflecting about them, but also it's the first time that I can actually speak honestly about them because especially something like this, they were always fairly proud of me, but most of what I did went above their heads or below their heads, below their radar. But every now and then I would be on something and they'd go, oh, you're in the Guardian now. It's like, so being on Desert Island Discs, there would be for them, you know, one of those moments where they understand how to be proud of me.

Speaker 312:44

Yeah.

Norman Cook12:53

Okay.

Norman Cook12:57

Now

Norman Cook12:58

Due to being

Presenter13:05

If we'd have met your mum when you were growing up, what what would we have seen? What was she like?

Presenter13:10

She was very open, very loving, very inquisitive and playful. She was an amateur dream analyst.

Presenter13:19

So she would love to hear about my dreams, but it was always something phallic. That's when I first heard the word phallic, you know, I'd say, I had this dream I was riding a motorbike. She went, that's phallic.

Presenter13:29

And so, yeah, this is this kind of, yeah, so she was a. She didn't have a dictionary or anything, it was just her interpretation.

Norman Cook13:32

Sh

Presenter13:35

Yeah, her interpretation and a few books she'd read about. No, I mean, she was quite into, you know, psychotherapy and stuff. Yeah, so yeah. Your parents were also members of the Cosmon faith. What did that entail? What did it mean for your family? It's kind of relative of Quakers. It means you don't have to go to church very often. We only have to go four times a year on the equinoxes. It was a very gentle.

Presenter13:57

Hands-off, lovely religion that just believed in unity and getting on with your fellow human being rather than starting wars. I did it till I was 14, and then when you're 14, you're emancipated as opposed to being confirmed. You're set free. It's like, well, whatever, you know, what your parents dragged you to church, now you don't have to go anymore. And it's up to you whether or not you sort of re-enroll. Whereas other churches, you get, you know, you double down. It's time, this is time to sign the paperwork. What about your parents' relationship with each other? Because they separated when you were 10, but kept living together in. They had an open relationship living in the same house. Okay. Yeah. It's weird. I can say that out loud in public now because they're gone. So they did that work. They wanted to stay together for us kids, but they didn't like each other anymore. So one day they stopped rowing and just had other partners. And then the other partners... Between the two of them, you said they didn't like each other. Wasn't that really weird? And I'm like, I said, they stopped rowing. They stopped screaming at each other, you know, every weekend. Yeah, so I had kind of two dads and two mums. And for you as kids, how was that? Because that really must have been unusual. People say that, but the thing is, that was all we knew. We thought that was normal. It was only when we sort of talked to other people, I said, isn't that weird? Well, I know that's all I know. From my name onwards, I was a child of the 60s. And there's a lot of very 60s influenced things. Where did the name come from? Who were you named after? Do you know?

Norman Cook14:21

You double down.

Norman Cook14:24

Design the paperwork.

Norman Cook14:31

Diamond.

Norman Cook14:33

Okay.

Norman Cook14:38

So how did that work?

Norman Cook14:47

The other partnership.

Norman Cook14:49

Yeah, it's not your

Norman Cook15:14

And there was a and there's a l

Norman Cook15:17

Where did the name come from?

Presenter15:20

When I asked my parents, I said, why did you call me Quentin? And they went, it was the 60s. It comes from the Latin Quintus, because I was the fifth member of the family. I was the third child. But I think they were just, you know, it was just like, you know. I could have been called Aquarius or something. So it was a little bit of that. Why and at what point did you decide to change it and why did you change it to Norman?

Norman Cook15:26

As if that was a

Norman Cook15:29

It's a third chart.

Norman Cook15:34

Don't you mean to

Norman Cook15:36

Slack

Presenter15:43

You have to understand that before Quentin Tarantino,

Presenter15:46

In the late 60s, in the early 70s, the only Quentin in people's consciousness was England's most celebrated homosexual, Quentin Crisp. Absolute hero. So being named, having the same name as him going through school was, you know, I got a lot of flack. And no one could spell it. My nan still couldn't spell it to her dying day. She couldn't spell it or pronounce it. And it was just a weird name and it was a stupid name. And so when I joined a band, then you get a chance to reinvent yourself. So it's like the first thing I'm going to do is change my name. It's like, get rid of that name. I'd grown up with a flamboyant, unusual name. And I just wanted a really normal name. So Norman Norman.

Norman Cook15:55

Collaborative.

Presenter16:25

Just had a good ring to it. All right, let's have disc number three from you, please, Norman Cook. Your third choice: what's it going to be and why?

Presenter16:33

Well, this is the contentious one, probably. Rainbow Connection by the Muppets. Which.

Presenter16:38

I think the only person probably who might have also chosen this would be my darling ex-wife Zoe because in our family this is just the tune that cements everything together. If you get over the fact that it's sung by a puppet frog, it's actually a very beautiful, soulful song. I can imagine it lifting my spirits on those days when I realise that I am on my own and I've got no one to show off to.

Presenter17:03

This is really one of those songs that would just make me smile and laugh and remember people. My dear old father in law, Rick, was it's just his favorite song. And so I would play this for Rick. I would remember him and I'd remember everyone who's who's danced round the room with me to it.

Speaker 317:20

What it's done so far

Speaker 317:25

What's so amazing that keeps us our gazing? And what do we think we might see?

Speaker 317:38

Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection, the lovers, the dreamers, and me.

Presenter17:49

Rainbow Connection from the Muppet movie soundtrack. So Norman Cook. You were brought up in Reigate and were in the same class at secondary school as the Prime Minister, Sakir Starmer. In fact, the two of you took violin lessons together. How did that go? I think I did it for one term until my parents couldn't stand the screeching noise any longer and I switched to piano. But yeah, no, it's quite funny because some people say, when they say, oh, you know, I was at school with so-and-so. It means like they were in a different year and, you know. But me and Keir were actually in the same form for five years. Wow, okay. So you must have known him quite well. I mean, were you surprised when he grew up and went into politics? Yeah. Yeah. I remember I saw him on TV when he was director of public prosecutions. I remember seeing him on the news thinking, there can't be more than one person called Keir Starmer. It's a weird name. And I suppose he probably had the same thing with me, only I would have changed my name. He's like, that don't look like Cook from 4K. I hadn't seen him since the last day of school. And then just to sort of watch his rise. Bizarrely enough, there was somebody in our school who was a real SWAT and he was brilliant. He was gifted and talented. And when you asked him what did he want, he said, I want to be Prime Minister. And no one laughed. We were like, yeah, you probably will. And we didn't realise that there actually was a future Prime Minister sitting right next to him. Right there. And what about you? You know, what were you like back then? What kind of kid were you? I was kind of rebellious. I kind of got put in a grammar school.

Norman Cook19:03

Right there.

Norman Cook19:08

What?

Presenter19:11

And didn't really want to be there and didn't really want to play their game. And then, as soon as Punk Lock came about, it's like, oh, this is what I've been waiting for: this sound of rebellion, how to annoy your parents, how to break, smash the system, break the status quo. And it had everything for me. So, yeah, I was sort of kind of half-rebel, rebel with a few jokes. You were DJing from when you were about 15, I think. Yeah, yeah. How did that happen?

Presenter19:37

It happened by mistake. I had all the records and before streaming, somebody had to physically have records at the party to have the cool music. And so I had this box of seven-inch singles and people used to invite me for my records. But also, I used to do weddings and stuff, so I had to play top 40 hits when I did weddings. In those days, it was a hobby rather than a career. DJs weren't treated well or paid well, and it was just something you did to fund your vinyl habit for a bit of pocket money. Alongside playing records out and building up your collection, you had a fanzine as well, peroxide. Yeah, I mean, I was just obsessed with pop music. I wanted to buy it, I wanted to play it, I wanted to talk about it. And younger listeners wouldn't understand what a fanzine was because there was no social media, there was no way of finding out about things, and necessarily in the mainstream. Well, it's the equivalent of an Instagram account or a TikTok account dedicated to like a fan account, I suppose. It's your own music magazine. Yeah, only in those days, we had to do it with a photocopying machine and a staple gun. Cut all the bits out and everything. So it was literally homemade magazines. But you had interviews, which, I mean, I had a fanzine, which was just stuff that we'd written. It was just silly. But you actually were tracking down artists and interviewing them.

Norman Cook20:26

Well it's the equivalent

Norman Cook20:36

Copying machine and

Norman Cook20:37

Cool.

Norman Cook20:38

Shall you

Presenter20:48

Basically, you would just if you could find the phone number of the record company and ring them up, you could just

Presenter20:53

Hopefully, get through to people. My most famous one was Adam Ant. Wow. I phoned up his record company. This is before he was really big when he was doing Dirt Wares White Socks. 78. And I just phoned up and I said, Oh, can I speak to you? You know, I want to get an interview with Adam Mant. And he just happened to be in the record company offices. And he's just, I just said, Can I do an interview for my fans? And he went, Yeah. He said, How about tomorrow? And I went, Oh, I'm kind of at school.

Norman Cook21:10

And it's just any more

Presenter21:17

And he's like, oh, okay, well, maybe come up on Saturday. So he just graciously gave me an interview without ever having heard of my fanzine or anything. And that's kind of carried with me because whenever somebody asks for an interview, if they say they're like at school or they're doing it for like a college thing, I tend more to say yes because I just think you should pay it forward. Because, yeah, I mean, it's you were that kid. You must have had so much going on. So you're in bands, you're DJing, you're actually meeting some of your heroes and interviewing them for your fanzine. How was your school work going at this point? Not so well. Yeah, I think it probably took a back seat in my mind. And I failed my A-levels because I was in a band with Paul Heaton. Oh, how did that go down at home? I didn't get a rollicking, but I but I so I yeah, I re-tick took my A-levels at email classes. But when I went to college, like Polytechnic College, I'd kind of said to myself, I mustn't be in a band with Paul Heaton. If I'm going to do the three years, there's no way that's going to work if I'm still in this band with Paul. We had to split up the band, which is a shame because we were, you know, beginning to be successful. But again, I got lucky because I threw myself into DJing for three years when I was at college, which stood me in great stead later on in my career.

Norman Cook21:39

Uh

Speaker 221:39

You were like,

Speaker 321:50

Yeah.

Presenter22:31

Well, I think on that swearing an oath never to get involved with Paul Heaton again is a good point to take a break for some music before we find out what happened next. Because obviously we know you didn't keep to it. Let's have your fourth disc, Norman. What's it going to be? Well, this is the sound of my young rebellion. The Clash still are my favourite band ever. They just, they had everything. They had ideas, they had attitude, they had the fashion, they had the politics. They had the swagger. They were just the best gang in town. Yeah, White Man in Hamsmith Palais, that would have been just when I started DJing. When punk wasn't thrashy really fast, it was experimenting with different genres. And this is kind of like it's about a white guy going to a reggae concert and being the only white man there, which I can kind of identify. I've been to hip-hop shows where I was like the only white person in the building. And so I've kind of identified with that. But the musical eclecticism of the Clash, but still with the greatest attitude and swagger ever.

Norman Cook23:06

It was expensive.

Norman Cook23:29

We got evidence to faith.

Norman Cook23:32

Many black is heavily fun.

Norman Cook23:36

But it was for the summer night with all cuts from days light

Norman Cook23:46

Hello, Davis, and God knows what I'm

Presenter23:57

The Clash and White Man in Hammersmith Palais.

Presenter24:01

So, Norman Cook, after Reigate Grammar, you went to Sixth Form College, and that was where you met Paul Heaton. You started a band, but not the House Martins. Tell me about the Stomping Pond Frogs. We build ourselves as an international beach band. But interestingly, it was the start of the Hawaiian shirts for me. That's what I was doing. Really? That was where I got. I first started wearing the Hawaiian shirts. Oh, wow. So, international beach band in the style of, what, the beach boys? So, close harmonies? We were sort of like a bastard offspring of the Buzzcocks and the Beach Boys, I would have thought. Yeah. Because I was in a band with Paul, I failed my A-levels, and then I made a promise to myself and my parents that I wouldn't be in a band with Paul if I was going to see through college. Get your head down, work hard.

Norman Cook24:17

Really? That was where I came from?

Norman Cook24:21

The internet

Norman Cook24:30

Yeah.

Norman Cook24:40

Gay head down

Presenter24:43

And so for three years, I learned how to DJ, and for three years, he went off to Hull and started the House Martins. And then at the end of that three years, he needed a bass player, and I was finished in college. So I rejoined him. And after dreaming of it since we were like at school, we were finally on top of the pots. I mean, what was that like? You were, you know, Paul McCartney in the dressing room next door, I think, 1986. Yeah, he seems to pepper my life, that man, doesn't he? Yeah. The first time we were on top of the pots, Paul McCartney is in the dressing room next door. And he came in and said hello. And we're like, he talked to us. And then we're like, well, we're one of him now. We're like, you know, in the gang.

Norman Cook24:49

Mm-hmm.

Norman Cook25:06

Yeah, I

Norman Cook25:08

Yeah.

Presenter25:18

So what was the kind of band approach? Paul kept you in check. What was the manifesto? You know, what was the goal back then? It was no pop style behavior, no stupid haircuts. Everything's about the band, it's not about you. And we were very political, we were very left wing. And Originally too uncomfortable to stay in hotels because we just thought they were, you know, bourgeoisie. So even hotels? Yeah, we used to sleep on people's floors. So it was very utilitarian. We had our own sleeping bags and we would just, at the end of the gig, we say, can someone put us up, please? I'm sure even Billy Bragg's not a stranger to a travel lodge. I mean.

Norman Cook25:40

Yeah, we used we used to sleep on p

Presenter25:54

Yeah, yeah. Even to this day, Paul is very uncomfortable with being famous and successful. He much prefers to be the underdog fighting for something. Yeah, but unfortunately, one of the most successful, prolific, brilliant songs. I know, it's one of those sort of things.

Norman Cook25:59

Uh

Norman Cook26:06

I know, he's one of those sort of

Presenter26:08

What I love is that I saw a drawing that Paul did when the two of you were kids of the two of you on Top of the Pops. Yeah, well, that was our dream.

Norman Cook26:16

That was our

Presenter26:17

You had a number one with Caravan of Love, released two albums and then the band split in 1988. You know, what was taking that decision like for you?

Presenter26:26

I think it was a relief for all of us because we'd had this dream and then all of a sudden it's going a bit sour. So we were all kind of going in different directions. And were you feeling the pull back to, you know, the DJing that you'd done, the music that you had? Well, all the people that I used to DJ with, like Cole Cutt and Tim Simon and people like that, they were putting records out because basically now they'd invented the sampler. Tim Simon, bomb the bass, yeah. I always felt as a suburban white kid from Surrey that I shouldn't be making dance records. And to make it, you had to pretend to be American or black or, you know. But then when they invented the drum machine and the sampler, it's like white kids like me could make this music in our own way without having to put on fake American accents. Let's have some more music, Norman. Your fifth choice. What is it?

Norman Cook26:34

And when you f

Norman Cook26:37

Well all the

Presenter27:11

In the midst of me being an angry punk rocker and in the midst of the disco sucks movement where disco was deemed to be like the devil incarnate, there was this one record by Donna Summer called I Feel Love that spoke to me. And I didn't like the idea of disco, but there was something about the electronics of this record. Beautiful, soulful song, but also acid house being invented 10 years early by Giorgio Amoroda. So this record, again, just has changed my life and has been a blueprint of me liking electronic music. And obviously on the desert island, I will be hopefully getting the Patrick Cowley 16 Mega Mix. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, if you listen to it, it's a house record that was accidentally made by Giorgio Moroda 10 years before House was invented.

Norman Cook27:49

Oh, so yeah.

Presenter28:31

I feel love, Donna Summer. So Norman Cook, after the House Martins disbanded, you went on to form Beats International and your hit Dub Be Good to Me brought together a clash bass line with a melody and lyric by Atlanta funk group the SOS band. It was the kind of unexpected combination that would go on to become your trademark. Tell me about finding samples. You must have developed a real magpie streak doing that over the years. Yeah, I mean, so... A, I'm a vinyl junkie, so I've got lots of records, but B, I just, I'm fairly OCD about collecting things. And so as soon as I started making records using samples, that sort of legitimized my crate digging even more. Ah, so that was a nice excuse to kind of categorize and collect. I remember on my first honeymoon with my first wife, we were... She wanted, we were in the South of America and she wanted to be Orlando at Disney World, and I wanted to be in New Orleans in second-hand record shops. But I justified it as a DJ and as a producer, I needed this, you know, source material. And in those early days, I mean, you were remixing so much as well. So you developed a real Midas touch, massive hits for Corner Shop, Groove Armada, a Bildchild, as well as music of your own. Did you feel like you'd hit on a winning formula? And did you feel like, yes, I've got this, I know what I'm doing? Yes. I kind of felt that after trying to be the bass player in an indie band, after trying to be the guitarist in an acid jazz band, it was like, or trying to be a producer managing a band and using vocalists. It's like, just me in a box of records is like kind of that's me at my best. And not having to explain to anybody else why I wanted to do it. It's just like, I think this sounds good. So, yeah, I mean, I definitely hit a very, very purple patch around the time of You Come a Long Way Baby with Fat Boy Slim and the remixes. And again, just being so prolific that I had time to do remixes for other people while I was doing my own stuff. And a new genre was minted. I mean, so successful that it became its own thing along with contemporaries like the Chemical Brothers. That sound that you were working on became known as Big Beat. The music in the music press back then were very into creating these genres and naming them in the 90s. How did you feel about yours? Well, it kind of was a thing. It took a while for us to coin the title because there was me and Tom and Ed, the Chemical Brothers, and we used to play together every week. And we used to call it this thing, this music. And then somebody tried to call it Trypno or Brit Hop. But I was very happy that they came on term Big Beat because that was the name of our club. The Big Beat Boutique. The Big Beat Boutique. And if you think that House Music was named after the Warehouse Club in Chicago and Garage Music was named after the Paradise Garage, like Big Beat was named after the Big Beat Boutique in Brighton, it just felt like being on the top of the wave. I don't surf, but I'm imagining when you're on the top of the wave, you're exhilarated, a little bit scared because you're not really in control of it, but you've just kind of rided that wave. You had a lot of adventures, good and bad, during that time. I'm not sure what I should ask about first: whether it should be the naked radio sessions in France or the time that you were rubbed at gunpoint while recording in the Bahamas, which sounds quite scary.

Norman Cook30:14

It's like

Norman Cook31:08

The big baby boutique.

Presenter31:44

Well, they were both the same band. So out of all the different bands they seemed that that band seemed Freak Power seemed to be the one that got in trouble. Freak Power aptly named that attracted the trouble, did it? Yes, yeah. That was probably my craziest time. The naked radio session, we were just.

Presenter32:01

We're being worked too hard by the record company and it's like, oh, and then you've got to do this radio session. And then we got to the radio station and there was like an audience of 20 people to do a radio session. It's like, well, what was the point of this? You know, we're playing to 20 people, it's on the radio. So we just thought we'd liven it up. We thought, if we play naked, then only those 20 people on the radio. This is before people had little in-worlds. Webcams in the webcams.

Norman Cook32:23

Webcams and all that.

Presenter32:25

So we just thought these 20 people would be enjoying themselves all the more for the fact that the band are totally naked. Did they? Did it? I mean, how was it for you playing naked? It was very quite liberating. If you're playing a guitar or bass guitar, you kind of got a little bit of a jump on some of the other members of the band. Yeah, if you don't want to be playing. You don't want to be playing a melodica in that situation, do you?

Norman Cook32:41

You do want to be positioned.

Norman Cook32:44

Situation

Presenter32:46

I'm glad we're fully clothed today, though, just to make it clear for the listener in the mind's eye.

Presenter32:51

Let's have some music norm to your sixth choice. What are we going to hear? The next one is Taj Mahal and Satisfied and Tickle To, which is one of my lesser-known choices. And so some of your listeners, but I think you'll agree it's a beautiful song. This would just remind me on the desert island of every lover that I've ever had, everybody I've ever fallen in love with. I've put this on their mixtape, I've sung it to them. It's a very pastoral feeling of being in love with someone. The sentiment of satisfied and tickle to, maybe just to know I'm in love with you. All the lovers and partners and wives I've had, I'm pretty much friends with still, and I love them still. And so I would dedicate this to this. This would be my memory of all the good times.

Norman Cook33:37

But now I'm satisfied Chicken Tu

Norman Cook33:41

Baby, just to know that I'm in love with you.

Norman Cook33:51

Yeah.

Speaker 233:51

Yeah.

Norman Cook33:51

Be mad.

Speaker 233:51

Um sad

Norman Cook33:54

Now take up to BB just to know that I'm in love with you.

Presenter34:05

Leave it now.

Presenter34:07

Taj Mahal and Satisfied and Tickled 2. Norman Cook, in 1994, you were living in Brighton in the so-called House of Love and you created another alias, Fat Boy Slim. How did you come up with a name? Well, as you know from Taj Mahal, if you're a blues singer, you normally have quite a strange name. Sure. And I used to collect old pre-war blues records, and I started writing this list of all the stupid names they had, like Snook Seaglin and Bo Weevil Jackson, Arthur Big Boy Cruddup. And if you were a fat blues singer, you would ironically be called Slim. So there was Pintop Slim, Memphis Slim, Bumblebee Slim was my favourite. So Fat Boy Slim is the oxymoronic blues singer who can exist. And it came out of a very, very long, drunken naming session. It was very weird to realise after trying to be in bounds with people and trying to collaborate that maybe I'm best on my own. And your album, You've Come a Long Way Baby, became one of the definitive albums of the decade. You married Zoe Ball, who was Rady One's breakfast show host at the time. The two of you had two children together. How did you handle the transition from being music nerds like me, famous, to being tabloid famous? Because it's a very different experience, those days. I only negotiated that change really with Zoe's help because there's one level of fame where you get recognised by people who like you.

Norman Cook35:22

Right.

Presenter35:31

And then there's another level where you get recognized by people regardless of whether they like you or not. And so if they don't like you, they still shout things at you. What was that like for you? It was weird, but Zo had been used to it. She'd been sort of tabloid famous for a few years before that. And she sort of walked me through it. And there's just certain things you just have to reset your head. That kind of thing. Not being freaked out that people stare at you in public. And we had our phones tapped and we had got followed around by trying to shake off photographers who are following you around. Things went really crazy when we got together. We became more famous than some of our parts.

Norman Cook35:37

Boop.

Presenter36:06

At the time when we were at our craziest. So there was a sort of acceleration to that. You talked about the the hedonistic side of the club scene and and everything that you were part of. You did eventually check yourself into rehab two thousand and nine, I think. What was the tipping point when you realized, actually, this isn't fun, I need to sort this out?

Presenter36:25

I was kind of aware for about a year before that that it wasn't fun, so much fun anymore and it was beginning to hurt. And people around me were saying, you know, you you need to wise up and, you know, and in the end it was just

Presenter36:40

One comment from Zoe and I realized that she was going to leave me unless I stopped drinking.

Norman Cook36:46

Okay.

Presenter36:46

And all she said was, oh, Norman. But she said it in such a way, it's like, oh, my God, you're going to leave me and take the kids unless I get sober. So yeah, that was my wake-up moment. And there'd been tons of people shouting at me before, but it was whispered very quietly in the end. Sometimes that's what makes the difference. It's when it lands with you. You must have been ready to hear it, I suppose, as well. I mean, addiction is such a weird disease. And it's like a parasite. It protects its own. So, you know, it knows that if you quit, it won't have anywhere to live anymore. So it will do things to you to keep you. Probably the last year of my drinking, I wasn't really enjoying it. And things were starting to fall off in my life. But luckily, I kind of managed to, you know, when I went in into rehab, everyone was like, you know, what have you? One of the questions is, what have you lost? And I said, what do you mean? And they said, you know, have you lost your driving license? Have you lost your wife, your kids, your freedom? Some of the people have been in jail. And luckily, I didn't actually lose anything. And I got in just in time. Was it easy to get clean?

Presenter37:50

Absolutely not, no. Um probably the hardest thing I've ever done, but

Presenter37:56

I couldn't have done it without going to rehab. I couldn't have just gone to meetings. I was too far gone for that. Yeah. So you needed to actually detox it. I need someone to bash into my head for a month. Was it quite a hardcore rehab then, by the sound of it? It wasn't one of those soft, fluffy ones that we read about with the toweling dressing gowns and things.

Norman Cook38:04

But it

Norman Cook38:16

No, no, no.

Presenter38:19

No, it was boot camp. It was like you had to live in a student digs with other fellow addicts and do your own cooking and then walk into the the centre every day and and and learn the stuff and then

Presenter38:31

Walk home and then walk to a meeting that night. Yeah, no, it's pretty hardcore, but it worked.

Norman Cook38:35

But it worked.

Presenter38:36

You've been sober for over fifteen years. How long did it take to get used to D Jing s when you were straight? It took about five shows. For the first five shows, I was so paralyzed, rigid with fear that I couldn't dance and I couldn't enjoy it. I couldn't. What was the fear? Can you explain to people?

Norman Cook38:48

Yeah.

Presenter38:54

Thinking, what are you actually doing? Why are you going to play that record next? And why are they going to react to it? And in fact, what are you doing? You know, they're all drunk, and you're a middle-aged man who's sober. Like, why are you even here? And what's your place? And why? Oh, God. And most importantly, why are you going to play that record next? Yeah. There's kind of.

Norman Cook39:08

Oh god.

Norman Cook39:11

Yeah.

Presenter39:13

instinct of DJing that just went out the window and I just had to fight for each new tune, go fight with myself going, Why are you playing that? And then one night I had this beautiful night in in Japan where the crowd were just so beautiful and so into it.

Norman Cook39:21

And then my

Presenter39:30

And they weren't even that drunk. They were just Japanese people, just really excitable when you get them going. And I just thought, oh, that's all, that's what it is. It's just making them happy. And everything sort of fitted into place. It all clicked. So you, but I think that'll be really helpful for people to hear that it wasn't immediate. It wasn't like that. You had to find a new idea. No, I had like kind of 30 years worth of stage fright that I hadn't had because I'd been drunk every night. All of those feelings that you just came crashing down on me in one go. Yeah.

Norman Cook39:42

And do I

Norman Cook39:48

You know what I mean?

Norman Cook39:52

Die

Norman Cook39:53

All of those feelings that you just came crashing down on me in one go.

Presenter40:00

What's it like now, now that you're past that and in a new phase?

Presenter40:05

I enjoy my this DJing side of my job more than ever. And I get to remember it all. And it is one of the greatest jobs in the world. You know, just to travel around the world watching people have fun and being part of their night out and and

Presenter40:22

The connection, I think during lockdown I realized how much as human beings we need this connection through through music or football or you know just all those things that we we tried to do virtually

Presenter40:34

on Zooms that didn't work. It's like, no, you have to be in the room with the people, you have to feel them and you have to feel the warmth of this common love of whatever it is. And and and music's one of the strongest, I think, one of the most powerful ways of bringing strangers closer together and just making you feel like you're part of this big

Norman Cook40:34

Yeah.

Presenter40:51

Warm, cuddly organism. Let's have some more music, Norman, to your seventh disc today. What is it? Right, so the next one is: if I'm feeling a little bit anxious and angsty about being on a desert island, then I must be in a good place now would be a good mantra to have. And one that if you listen to the lyrics, it probably works if you are on a desert island. Turning your desolation and your loneliness round into a positive thing.

Norman Cook40:57

Die.

Presenter41:17

Oh yeah, you're watching the sunset to this would be perfect, yeah.

Norman Cook41:19

Yeah.

Presenter41:20

And you'd need to do a bit of fishing.

Presenter41:23

Sunshine coming through

Presenter41:26

A rainbow coloured sky

Speaker 341:26

Rain

Norman Cook41:31

Uh

Presenter41:32

Paints pretty pictures in my mind

Norman Cook41:37

Yeah.

Presenter41:41

Oh what a good day to go fishing.

Presenter41:50

And catch the sunset.

Presenter41:52

Bobby Charles, I must be in a good place now. Norman Cook, you've been teaching people how to DJ as part of a mental health project in Brighton where you live. What does learning to DJ do for people and why is it something that you've been happy to pass on? It was something I was just asked to do by a friend of mine who works for the local NHS and I went along to one session and I just realised that power of music to unlock a mind or to soothe the troubled mind is a really powerful thing and it struck me that you know people who were really quite nervous or or shy or troubled would walk out an hour later.

Presenter42:31

Literally, physically, you can see that they're a weight off them. I mean, I don't really teach them to DJ. We just mess about with the decks and we like play with the filters and we mix tunes and we, you know, but it just seems to help people to relax or escape. And I've had issues with mental health myself. I know it's like anxiety can just hang over you for no reason whatsoever. And then it just takes one of this, just like one squelching noise to banish that anxiety just for a few hours. And is music one of the ways that you've dealt with your anxiety? Absolutely. I think in my...

Presenter43:08

Deepest Depression I heard an Elvis Costello song.

Presenter43:12

And it was like, Oh my God, you're worse than I am.

Presenter43:16

You're worse than I am and now you're all right. And it's a bit like, you know, that thing of blues music. You know, there's always somebody worse off than you. If I'm really down, I listen to someone who's more down than me.

Norman Cook43:21

No, there's yours.

Presenter43:25

Well, Norman, as you said, you know, your selections are really going to help you on the desert island. It's almost time to cast you away there. How do you imagine life as a castaway? What do you picture?

Presenter43:37

I'm dreading the the solitude.

Presenter43:40

I think I'd be quite happy to right now in where I am in my life, to live my life on a desert island and just take it a little bit easy. And that's probably the only thing that would make me reti that let me retire, enforced retirement. But there's the solitude bit. So I would as uh aside from learning how to fish and light fires and build shelters, I would always be gazing on the horizon for another castaway.

Norman Cook43:53

But this

Presenter44:04

So just a threat, like one person. Just, yeah, one other. One other, I think, would do it. I mean, it'd be nice if it could be a bit a few.

Norman Cook44:05

A fret.

Norman Cook44:06

So we should just

Presenter44:12

I think that's interesting that you're not looking for rescue, you're just looking for someone else who's coming to you. I don't know that's just in this whole process. And then talking about my book choice, my book choice is definitely all about the other people that hopefully are going to come and join me. Arrive at the island? I don't think anyone's ever said that to me. I'm imagining an influx of other castaways. Right, well, I think we'll give you one more disc before we send you away to your desert island, Norman Cook. Your last choice? What is it?

Norman Cook44:16

Yeah, yeah.

Norman Cook44:17

Dream it.

Presenter44:40

It had to be something that would remind me of the clubbing experience. It would have to be an anthrav, something that made the hairs of my back and the neck stand up and my grimace turn into a smile. So it's born slippy. On the desert island, there must be some kind of room for a bit of a jump around. I can't just be reflective and pastoral and seeing the beauty in it all. At some point, I would have to have a leap around, and this is one of the best records of leap around that has ever been invented.

Presenter45:11

Yeah, this is uh Born Slippy by Underworld.

Norman Cook45:29

In angel boy in the doorway, boy, she wasn't sixty boy, she wasn't beautiful, boy. And tears, boy, and all in your inner space, boy, a head and girl, boy, and still

Presenter45:45

Underworld and born slippy. So, Norman Cook, it's time to send you away to the island. I'll give you the books to take with you: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one other book. What are you going to choose? I'm going to choose The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressel. For a few reasons. I put a lot of thought into this. It was a book that, when I was recommended by Captain Sensible.

Norman Cook45:59

Oh.

Presenter46:08

When I interviewed him for my fancy and he just read it and he was like, oh, you've got to read it. And it's basically, it's a kind of introduction to socialism.

Presenter46:17

About some painters who get together and look after each other rather than because they're not being treated well by their bosses. But it's a very gentle introduction to socialism. I read it when I was 18, and that politicized me and set my political beliefs in action. But I think I could probably read it again. It's quite a long book and one that I've never gotten around to reading again, so obviously I would have time to read it. But also, it's kind of the antithesis of Lord of the Flies.

Norman Cook46:38

Mm.

Presenter46:48

Yeah.

Norman Cook46:48

Sh

Presenter46:48

So when the other people arrive, I can get them to introduce them to the book, and then we can build this utopian socialist society where we're all equal.

Presenter46:58

And not end up as Lord of the Flies where we're stabbing each other. Fantastic. You've really thought this through. My musical choices, it's not like, do I like this now? It's like, will I like this after 50 lessons? You know, I'm going to forgo the Bible if that's all right with you. So my new utopian society will be based around the ragged trousered philanthropists. You can also have a luxury item, Norman. What's that going to be?

Presenter47:21

It would be a label maker, please. Like a a one where you print it on and then it prints out the sticky label.

Presenter47:29

Wow, that's very specific. Um a man who's had so much chaos in his life and he's found peace through labeling things. There's peace and order and compartmentalizing.

Norman Cook47:36

There's

Presenter47:39

Yeah.

Presenter47:40

And obviously, while I'm setting up this new utopian society, I'll have to have everything in order, the different.

Presenter47:48

Washing up area, and you know, I'll know where everything is, but also, I mean, I could write my memoirs depending on it being a solar-powered printer and you giving me unlimited refill cartridges. Oh, yeah, obviously, I could actually write my memoirs on it and then like a ticker tape of memoirs. Yeah, and also, most of all, I would just label everything on the island just to make me smile every time I walk past. And it gives you that sense of order. So, if I came to your house, like, is it if I opened your cupboards, is everything labeled?

Norman Cook47:49

Binner?

Norman Cook48:01

Oh, yeah, obviously.

Norman Cook48:03

Like a ticket to

Norman Cook48:05

Yeah, yeah.

Norman Cook48:12

Take it.

Norman Cook48:16

Oh yeah.

Presenter48:19

Not everything, just things where they needed to be. Certain areas will be over-labeled. People who know me won't be surprised that I have a label gun on my desert island. I also have a label maker. I feel a sense of peace giving you this luxury item within. I'm very happy to make it. Excellent, I'm glad that you appreciate the power of the power of the power of order. Oh, because I'm pretty sure that it's going to be quite a distressing experience being on your own on a desert island. So anything that can preserve order and a feeling of well-being. And for me, it's labelling things. That's it. Let's get labelling. Just what the Victorians did. Why not? It's basically what Darwin was doing. And finally, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you needed to?

Norman Cook48:36

Excellent.

Norman Cook48:37

You appreciate it.

Norman Cook48:40

Oh no, it's

Norman Cook48:42

Pretty sure that is

Norman Cook48:53

Shaw.

Presenter49:04

Oh, having listened to them back, I think I feel love.

Presenter49:09

Inspire gave me the most emotion. Yeah, I'm going to go for I Feel Love. Norman Cook, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Well, thanks for having us. Like I said, from the goose pimples I got when I heard the opening theme tune, it's been a pleasure to finally be here.

Presenter49:37

Hello, it was a lovely chatting to Norman and I hope he's very happy on his island labelling.

Speaker 249:41

Everything.

Presenter49:43

There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to. We've cast away many other musicians over the years, including Norman's former neighbour, Supp.

Speaker 249:51

Paul McCartney and his former classmate, Sakia Starmer. Norman's second wife, Zoe Ball, is also on the island too. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Disc's website.

Presenter50:04

Yeah.

Speaker 250:04

The studio managers for today's program.

Presenter50:05

Grammar was Steve Greenwood and Giles Aspen, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylence, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the content editor was Magarbi Turia, and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when I'll be casting the scientist Professor Liz Morris away to the island.

Speaker 250:23

Yeah.

Speaker 350:45

So, Alice Loxton, I'm here for the history.

Speaker 250:48

Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality and that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share. Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets?

Speaker 351:05

Well, in our new podcast, Here for the History, we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today.

Speaker 251:11

Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question.

Speaker 351:15

Listen on BBC Sounds or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History.