Joe Bugner

Presenter0:00

This download is the only extract the BBC has of this edition of Desert Island Discs. The presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:08

Joe, you were born in Hungary, weren't you? That's right, yes. How old were you when you left?

Presenter0:12

Um I was six years old.

Presenter0:14

It was rather a a dangerous trip getting hard, wasn't it?

Joe Bugner0:17

Well, it was as f you know, as far as my mother was concerned because

Joe Bugner0:21

If she was caught at the time, she would have uh been imprisoned, and I believe the

Joe Bugner0:26

The sentence was something like ten years, for endangering the children's lives should there be any children involved in the escape.

Presenter0:32

Yes. But how many children were you?

Joe Bugner0:34

Well there was um

Presenter0:34

It was a one

Joe Bugner0:36

my two sisters and myself, and of course a few months before that my second eldest brother escaped with another friend.

Presenter0:43

Yes. Do you remember it all very vividly?

Joe Bugner0:46

I can remember certain incidents, you know, for instance where um I had to carry the machine gun. Once we crossed the border,

Joe Bugner0:54

and the Yugoslavian soldiers took us from

Joe Bugner0:58

the border to the s railway station where we got onto a train and went to a certain place.

Joe Bugner1:03

Um, I had to carry his machine gun and of course being a six-year-old kid, you know, I thought what a fantastic great thing, you know, carrying a machine gun.

Presenter1:09

Yeah.

Presenter1:10

And whereabouts did you settle?

Joe Bugner1:12

Well, at first we went to London, from there we moved to Wiltshire.

Joe Bugner1:17

And then

Joe Bugner1:19

We were stationed to Bedford, where we made we made our home for eleven years and of course now moved into Cambridgeshire.

Presenter1:26

Yes.

Presenter1:27

You began doing rather well at sports. You became the English school's discus champion.

Joe Bugner1:33

That's right, yes, um.

Joe Bugner1:35

I was very, very proud of that because

Joe Bugner1:37

I I always loved sports. I never did like studying.

Joe Bugner1:42

Angle son.

Joe Bugner1:44

Been the biggest boy in classroom.

Joe Bugner1:46

Everybody sort of looked upon me as one of the

Joe Bugner1:49

The heroes, you know.

Joe Bugner1:51

If anybody was fine to me with another boy, they always say, I'll come and call Bagner over if you don't want shooting on something like this.

Presenter1:55

Something like this. Uh when did you start boxing?

Joe Bugner1:58

I started boxing at the age of about twelve. That's when I was first introduced.

Presenter2:03

Yes.

Joe Bugner2:04

But then being t too big for other boys of my age group.

Joe Bugner2:08

And and I didn't really concentrate on boxing until I was about sixteen.

Presenter2:12

Yes. How did that start again?

Joe Bugner2:14

Um it started um

Joe Bugner2:16

Once I was an apprentice in Bedford.

Joe Bugner2:18

Apprentice at what? I was uh an apprentice marine engineer. Yeah. And I had a friend there who

Joe Bugner2:25

always talked about the Lord brothers who who came from Saint Ives, Huntingdonshire, the Rabi A champion and so on.

Joe Bugner2:31

British Representatives.

Joe Bugner2:33

And of course at that time they were professional.

Joe Bugner2:36

And he says, Would you like to come and meet them, and their manager, mister Andy Smith? I said, I'd love to very much indeed.

Joe Bugner2:42

So I went along one Sunday morning to his gymnasium and he looked at me as uh

Joe Bugner2:47

No, some kind of Hercules because him is only about five foot six and he's

Presenter2:52

Uh

Joe Bugner2:52

So he looked at me, he says, What can I do for you, son?

Joe Bugner2:58

I said, Well I said, I'd just like to have a look at your training and everything.

Joe Bugner3:03

He says, Fine, fine, he said you got your kit, you know what I mean? So I says, Great, yes.

Presenter3:06

Yeah.

Joe Bugner3:07

We're going get changed. So I go and get changed, put my stuff on and started training and

Joe Bugner3:12

He says,'Well, Son, he says,'I'll tell you what,' He says,'I'll take you to London with me on Tuesday, and see Billy Walker fight'.

Joe Bugner3:18

I believe it was Ray Patterson at the time.

Joe Bugner3:21

This is going back to nineteen sixty-six and ever since then we've been together.

Presenter3:25

Yes, and quite soon he said, You should be a professional fighter.

Joe Bugner3:30

No, it didn't actually. It was

Joe Bugner3:32

A typical Scott attitude, you know. Come back again and we'll see.

Joe Bugner3:36

Uh in fact Mr. Smith was the type of person that would um

Joe Bugner3:40

you know, see potential, but wouldn't tell you about until he was absolutely sure.

Presenter3:45

Mm-hmm.

Joe Bugner3:46

And I was very p pleased about this.

Presenter3:47

Yes. And when he was absolutely sure, how old were you?

Joe Bugner3:52

Um seventeen.

Presenter3:54

That's about as young as it's possible to fight professionally.

Joe Bugner3:57

Well at that time this was uh I mean let's face this is going back five years. Um the limit to turn professional at that time was seventeen, but of course since then they've put it up to eighty.

Presenter4:06

Yes.

Presenter4:07

And you were already married.

Joe Bugner4:09

Um, well, I wasn't married till

Joe Bugner4:11

I was nearly eighteen.

Presenter4:13

So you had responsibilities.

Joe Bugner4:14

I mean, I had responsibilities right from the start I left school because

Joe Bugner4:19

Having no father,

Joe Bugner4:20

Um it was a sort of thing that one had to depend upon himself.

Joe Bugner4:24

Because coming from a large family, essentially you sort of worked for yourself, you

Joe Bugner4:30

You made sure that everything you had you

Joe Bugner4:32

you had it, you know, you you went and grasped it, you wouldn't sort of

Joe Bugner4:36

Say, oh well c it happened again or something. You when you had something you kept hold of it.

Presenter4:41

What was your very first professional fight?

Joe Bugner4:44

Oh dear You hit a sore point there now

Joe Bugner4:47

Uh that was against Paul Brown.

Joe Bugner4:49

whom uh ended rather disastrously because

Joe Bugner4:52

I got knocked out in the fourth round.

Presenter4:55

Now, after coming unstuck in your first professional fight, you you plugged away. It was a matter of getting experience, really, first of all, wasn't it?

Joe Bugner5:02

Yes, it w um I think in every profession as far as

Joe Bugner5:06

Entertainment is concerned, you know, it practice, practice is the most important thing in everything.

Presenter5:09

Yeah.

Presenter5:10

Among your early fights, which one do you remember in particular?

Joe Bugner5:14

It's a it's a very difficult question really because

Joe Bugner5:17

Um, I was so involved, you know, in my boxing.

Joe Bugner5:21

that as far as individual contests were concerned, I couldn't really pick up on one as being the most enjoyable and the most exciting.

Presenter5:30

Well, after about three years, you had your first really big chance, a title fight against Henry Cooper.

Joe Bugner5:35

Nobody thought you had much ch

Presenter5:36

I did.

Joe Bugner5:39

I I feel that my manager and myself, we thought that I had a sixty-forty chance of winning.

Presenter5:45

Yes. It was a very close thing, a a a narrow point decision, so close that there was a bit of a dust up.

Joe Bugner5:51

I really agree upon this, but

Joe Bugner5:54

I mean, I knew it was up on the last round.

Presenter5:56

Yeah.

Presenter5:57

And you took the British and Commonwealth and European heavyweight titles from it.

Joe Bugner6:02

That's right, yes.

Presenter6:03

But you only held those titles a few months.

Joe Bugner6:06

Naive another so poor.

Presenter6:07

They were taken off you by a chap called Jack Bottell.

Joe Bugner6:12

Who? Who was that fire again?

Presenter6:13

You've heard of him, yes.

Joe Bugner6:15

Yes, I have actually.

Presenter6:16

Yes. In fact, you hit a very bad batch. You had your jaw broken by a not particularly well-known fighter.

Joe Bugner6:23

I don't think I'll agree upon that, Roy, because this Larry Middleton was rated, I believe, somewhere in the top ten when he came over to Britain.

Presenter6:30

When he came

Joe Bugner6:31

But of course he wasn't known.

Presenter6:33

Hmm.

Joe Bugner6:34

Uh but that doesn't make you know any excuses as far as the contest was concerned, but although I thought to myself that I did enough to win.

Presenter6:41

Did it mean you had to start all over again, no?

Joe Bugner6:43

No, it doesn't, in fact, it's quite the opposite.

Joe Bugner6:46

Because relating back to my very first contest when I got knocked out.

Joe Bugner6:50

Um

Joe Bugner6:51

Should you suffer a defeat, instead of going back to square one, you don't, you just try and plod on and on, because progress is the best way to cure a headache.

Presenter7:00

Well, after Larry Middleton, you took on five American boxes, one a month, and demolished all of them.

Joe Bugner7:05

Well that was our intention because that's something to give you confidence.

Presenter7:07

That's something to give you.

Presenter7:10

Well then you had a shot at getting one of your titles back, the European Championship.

Joe Bugner7:15

That's right, yes. I mean, that was um one of my proudest moments because

Joe Bugner7:19

Mike Barrett, the London promoter for the Albert Hall, gave me this chance, and let's face it, promoters don't give you a lot of chances.

Joe Bugner7:27

But this one did, and he trusted me because

Joe Bugner7:30

He thought I could do it.

Joe Bugner7:32

And I went back and did it.

Presenter7:33

Yes. And you defeated Jürgen Blinn.

Joe Bugner7:36

That's right, yes.

Presenter7:37

and then three distinguished figures.

Presenter7:40

an American, an Italian, and a Dutchman.

Presenter7:43

And that brought you the chance to fight Mohammed Ali at Las Vegas.

Presenter7:48

Uh

Joe Bugner7:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Presenter7:48

You weren't meeting him for the first time. You did know him socially quite well.

Joe Bugner7:52

Yes, I I must admit I must be one of the fortunate fighters to have met Ali on something like five occasions.

Presenter7:58

Yes. And um you'd sparred with it.

Joe Bugner7:58

And um

Joe Bugner8:00

I have smiled with him on on four previous occasions, yes.

Presenter8:03

Now

Presenter8:04

He's a he's a loud-mouthed, blustering character, full of threats of knocking you cold. Now does that sort of thing, I'm gonna get that bum in the seventh round, does that have any psychological effect? Does that make you worry about the seventh round? Is this showmanship or is it gamesmanship?

Joe Bugner8:21

I think it could have a tremendous worry on a person who's a bit narrow-minded and and you know, it can't sort of adapt to

Joe Bugner8:27

The person who's gonna join us

Joe Bugner8:30

ability to talk you into the ground.

Joe Bugner8:32

But I I think once you stand up to your rights and and tell him, Knock it off, mate, what's up? You know what I mean?

Presenter8:38

You know Amory?

Joe Bugner8:39

He knows that I only believe a certain amount of his his arrogance.

Presenter8:44

Mm.

Joe Bugner8:44

And his in his chat, you know what I mean?

Joe Bugner8:46

To me it's just a lot of hot air.

Presenter8:48

You had Henry Cooper with you in Las Vegas.

Presenter8:51

He was what adviser?

Joe Bugner8:53

Uh

Joe Bugner8:54

Uh sort of, you know. I think Henry enjoyed the golf very much.

Presenter8:59

Haha.

Presenter9:00

Joe, what did you think your chances were in that fight?

Joe Bugner9:03

We went there on a fifty-fifty basis because, I mean, we felt confident. We also knew that Mahmoud Ghani was a is is a great fighter and he still is.

Joe Bugner9:12

And

Joe Bugner9:13

I think this was sufficient because I mean if you don't have confidence in yourself then you might as well not go to places like that.

Presenter9:18

Well, he hit you hard and often, but you stayed on your feet for for twelve runs, and he wasn't indulging in any clowning in that fight, was he? He was taking it very seriously.

Joe Bugner9:26

No, I mean it

Joe Bugner9:28

He knows me as well as I know him that I went there to destroy him.

Joe Bugner9:34

But unfortunately I wasn't gonna let the British flag drop to the ground because of a katai, so I thought I might as well keep it at three quarter mast.

Presenter9:43

Mm.

Joe Bugner9:44

Um and make sure that we don't sink.

Presenter9:46

Now Joe, on this programme last week my guest was a very distinguished lady, Baroness Somerskill, who's been campaigning for many years to get professional boxing stopped in this country because it's dangerous. What do you say to that?

Joe Bugner10:00

Um, I find it very difficult to, you know, to to chat about this sort of thing, Roy, because

Joe Bugner10:06

Today the the British Boxing Board of Control are so strict on boys' healths.

Joe Bugner10:12

to maintain that these boys keep fitting mentally as well as physically.

Joe Bugner10:17

that whether the boy has a knock out

Joe Bugner10:21

or whether he goes the distance. I believe I I'm I wouldn't be certain on this, but I believe it's something like

Joe Bugner10:26

Seven to fourteen days rest after the contest.

Presenter10:30

That's a fairly new development. In other words, things are very much better for fighters than they used to be. They're looked after much better.

Joe Bugner10:36

Well, the lady that's supposed to be trying to ban boxing obviously is talking about an era that I haven't been around.

Joe Bugner10:42

We we must be going back to something like 1935, 1940, where

Presenter10:46

Wait.

Joe Bugner10:47

I believe boxing booths used to run shows somewhere like four times a week.

Joe Bugner10:52

And you could bet your life that half the fellows that fought on there fought four times a week in the same booth. Okay.

Joe Bugner10:58

I I I think personally now that uh

Joe Bugner11:01

With them being so strict on the medical side.

Joe Bugner11:05

There's not really much else they can do unless they ban it completely, but I don't think they should.

Presenter11:09

Joe, at home in in your mother's house, you of course you all speak Hungarian and you have Hungarian food.

Joe Bugner11:15

Oh yes. That's the one thing that um mum sticks to because

Joe Bugner11:19

She f we normally find that you see Mum doesn't speak fluent English.

Joe Bugner11:24

We normally find that when we get into the house, should anything upset her during the day, it comes out, and it comes out like a oh

Joe Bugner11:31

And it hits us l like if it were throwing rocks at us.

Joe Bugner11:34

And it's all in Hungarian.

Joe Bugner11:36

And of course

Joe Bugner11:38

Being European.

Joe Bugner11:40

Everything is done in shouting.

Joe Bugner11:43

I mean there's no such thing as mellowness, like in the British West.

Presenter11:45

No other statement.

Joe Bugner11:47

Two.

Joe Bugner11:47

But no, he sort of settled down.

Presenter11:48

Uh

Joe Bugner11:50

Don't lose your head, you know.

Joe Bugner11:53

Keep the cool she is the opposite.

Presenter11:54

He is the opposite of

Joe Bugner11:56

Being educated in Britain, um I find that I'm British all the way through and I'm

Joe Bugner12:01

And I must say this, I'm very, very proud of it because

Joe Bugner12:05

Britain has done a lot for me, and and for my family.

Joe Bugner12:08

And

Joe Bugner12:10

I think British and I feel British.