Joseph Cooper

Joseph Cooper0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than on the original broadcast. The presenter is Roy Plomley. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:27

This week, our castaway is the pianist, lecturer, and broadcaster, Joseph Cooper.

Presenter0:33

Joe, how would you view the prospect of a desert island existence?

Presenter0:37

I don't think I'd like it very much, Roy, because I'm a very dependent, gregarious sort of creature, and always get other people to do the dirty jobs rather than doing them myself. Oh, dear. Any special aspect of civilization you'll be glad to have escaped from? Yes, I think the noise of traffic and the noise of airplanes. I think you'll find the noise of seabirds maddening. Well, I quite enjoy those, actually. How did you set about choosing your ape discs?

Presenter1:05

Well, that's a very awkward question because I had about 40 or 50 before I came to my final process of elimination and in the end, I've chosen things that have given me the most pleasure in my life, plus pieces of music which have got romantic and pleasurable associations connected with them. Splendid. What's the first one? Well, the first one is the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, and I especially like the last movement.

Presenter2:31

The closing passage of Haydn's trumpet concerto

Presenter2:35

The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, directed by Neville Mariner and the trumpeter, Alan Stringer. Let's go straight on to your next record.

Presenter2:43

My next record is the Elgar First Symphony.

Presenter2:47

And this has really played a very important part of my life, going right back to my early childhood. I mean, can you bear to hear about my early childhood? By all means.

Presenter2:57

Well, I was born at West Breontrim, which is now a suburb of Bristol. Then it was really a small country village, and it is separated by the Downs from the main part of Bristol, these glorious Downs. But anyway, in West Brontym, where I was born, my mother was a very good pianist and liked music, but the music in the household tended to be rather kind of Amy Woodford Findon, Pale Hands I Loved, and Until, and all these things, and I had an aunt who used to come and play the violin, but all the music tended to be rather kind of slushy. Then I got a scholarship to Clifton College, and the music director was then William Mackay, who became afterwards organist of Westminster Abbey. And then I suddenly heard a completely different kind of music. I heard the great works of Bach played on the organ, and I bought a little portable grammar phone.

Presenter3:56

and I started collecting my own records and

Presenter3:59

Mackay was responsible for introducing me to great music and the Downs act as a kind of gulf. I mean I had to accept no rose in all the world in Westbury-on-Trim and a beautiful Bach fugue the other side of the Downs at Clifton College. And this particular work, the Elgar First Symphony, I'm proud because Mackay didn't find it for me. I was chasing around music in the record shop and I put on this music and I thought this is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard and I still think so.

Presenter5:30

The closing passage of the slow movement of Elgar's first symphony, the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt.

Presenter5:38

You won a music scholarship to Clifton. How early did you start learning the piano?

Presenter5:44

I would think either the age of three or the age of four. Not absolutely sure which. As I said before, my mother was a good pianist and I used to like to sit under the piano on a cushion so that I could get the maximum volume, things like the Rachmaninoff Prelude in C sharp minor. At Clifton, when I got this scholarship, Mackay used to take us down to the Coatston Hall to hear all the great artists of the time. And we heard Corto, we heard Mara Hess many times, adored Mara Hess.

Presenter6:12

And on one occasion, there was a little boy.

Presenter6:16

playing the violin in shorts and this was Yehudi Menuin.

Presenter6:21

And uh I

Presenter6:23

started an an affection and a respect for this man.

Presenter6:27

that I've had all my life and uh

Presenter6:29

When his D minor concerto came out, I say his, I mean the Bach double D minor, which was played by Yehudi Menyon and his teacher Ernesto, I pounced on it and wore it out. I thought it was so beautiful. And by this time, my Bach had become a passion with me through the organ after William Mackay. And then through this double violin concerto, I saw Bach from yet another light. And I'd like to hear the part of the first movement.

Presenter7:57

Part of the first movement of the Bach double violin concerto, Yehudi Menouin and Georgianesco.

Presenter8:04

After Clifton, you were an organ scholar at Keeble, weren't you? You went up to Oxford. Yes. What happened to you when you came back?

Presenter8:11

Well, I became an organist a little bit. I went to Blackheath and I was an organist at St Margaret's Lee, but I decided for one reason or another that the piano was the instrument for me rather than the organ.

Presenter8:23

You worked with the GPO Film Unit for a while, didn't you? Yes, for conveniently, they had their headquarters in Bennett Park in Blackheath.

Presenter8:30

And when I decided to give up the organ job, I thought I'd try my hand at writing film music.

Presenter8:36

And working alongside me was Benjamin Britton.

Presenter8:40

And this was an astonishing experience because I realized, you see, he was then quite unknown. I realized what a genius this man was. I mean, I remember it took me three weeks, you know, and...

Presenter8:53

Baths of perspiration to write music for Spring on the Farm where Britain would think nothing of doing about three films in two days and to be alongside a genius like this was very awe-inspiring. And of course you started doing concert work. Your London debut? My London debut was fixed for October the 8th, I think it was, 1939. But unfortunately the war had broken out by then and was cancelled. Yes, you disappeared into the Royal Artillery for a long time. Yes, it was until well after the war, actually, in 1947, I finally gave my Wigmore Hall, my first Wigmore Hall.

Presenter9:30

Let's have uh record number four.

Presenter9:32

Well, one of my great loves, and that is Delius. And this again, I'm afraid it's sort of tripped down memory lane. Most of us at Oxford, most of the organ scholars at that time, became, I think, really attached to the music of Delius. And I particularly liked on hearing the first cuckoo in spring. And recently, my wife and I actually were coming up the canals of France, and we got to the... Loine Canal, L-O-I-N-G, difficult to pronounce, Loine Canal. And I said, oh gracious, the Delius house isn't far from here. Turn left. And so we steered the boat left into the little river Loine. We couldn't get very far because we hadn't got enough draft. I mean, our draft was too deep. So anyhow, we put the boat by a bridge and we found out where Delius's house was.

Presenter10:18

I called on the owners and they were very friendly and asked us in.

Presenter10:22

And Delas' old gramophone was there, just as he'd left it. And I listened to Beecham's recording of Cuckoo in Spring, actually in the room where it was composed, and I found it jolly moving.

Presenter11:35

On hearing the first Cooko in Spring conducted by Sir Thomas Beacham.

Presenter11:41

Now, rather belatedly, you were launched in London on your career. Did engagements come in thick and fast? No, I wouldn't say thick and fast, no. Actually, I would like to go back a little, Roy, if I may, and tell you what led up to my going back onto the concert platform.

Presenter11:57

When I was in the army

Presenter11:59

I went over to Aramanche, rather late by the way, I'm not indulging in any false heroics, to the Normandy beaches with a light ACAC regiment.

Presenter12:09

As I say, not on D-Day a month later, but it was still quite unpleasant.

Presenter12:13

and eventually arrived in Brussels and managed to get myself

Presenter12:16

Onto a sort of rather cushy staff job in Brussels. I really had had enough of discomfort and I got myself to a position where there were two colonels and I used to play Smoke Gets in Your Eyes to one colonel and Jesus Joy of Man's Design to the other. I had two sessions after lunch and all my inefficiency as a staff officer was more than covered by my lunch hour concerts.

Presenter12:37

And one day my major said to me, oh Cooper, there's too much V Deem among the troops. Go down to 21 Army Groups, see the chap down there and get some of these deterrent films. I think they're American. That'll put them off.

Presenter12:52

Yeah.

Presenter12:53

Clicked my heels, down I went to 21 Army Group.

Presenter12:57

Knocked on the door and expected to hear a male voice and I heard to my astonishment and horror a female voice. So I went in and very charming blonde girl, very pretty, said, What can I do? I said, Well, my name is Captain Cooper and I want some films. And she said, What kind of films? Well, I simply couldn't say. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I saw this girl quite a lot and liked her very much indeed. Her name was Jean Gregg. And then...

Presenter13:28

The war in Europe ended and we all went up to Germany and I didn't see her again and we didn't exchange addresses, but I was playing the harmonium in the Garrison Church at Hereford, which was one of the places where we were. I was doing a very important job on the canteens.

Presenter13:45

As a preparation for my return to the musical profession. Very harsh, hush. Very hush, hush. And suddenly there was Jean Gregg singing away in a front pew. And so we became friendly again. And one day she came into the mess and said, oh, Joe, do you happen to know a tune that goes like this? Dee, da, da, da, dee, da, da, da, dee. I said, oh, yes, that's the 18th variation from Rachmananoff's rhapsody on a theme of Paganini. She said, well, I heard it from the proms on the wireless last night, and I'm still swooning about it. Well, I didn't tell her, but I had managed, by taking a great deal of coffee to the Steinway factory in Hamburg, I managed to persuade them to lend me, mind you, only lend me a beautiful Steinway, which I put in the back of an army lorry and drove down to Hereford. And so I asked senior commander Greg if she would like to come and have a little coffee. And I sat down and I played the 18th variation, and I can tell you I made the piano sound as though I had six orchestras on that occasion.

Presenter15:46

Well, I think that did the trick actually, that playing of that variation on the Steinway. And I didn't see her again because she went back to England. And then I came back to England and made moves in her direction. And at the time, Cyril Smith and Phyllis Sellick were going to play an arrangement of Vaughan Williams' single piano concerta for two pianos at a Cecilia State concert at the Albert Hall. And I knew Cyril and Phyllis, and they asked me if I would make the arrangement in collaboration with Vaughan Williams himself. And a friend of mine down in Somerset offered me a room in his house. And so I went down there and worked on this thing for three weeks. And Vaughan Williams would send me suggestions if I got stuck. Then the music was copied by a copyist in Bristol. And it was all going splendid. And I thought a little diversion would be to ask Jean Gregg down to come and stay in this house. And I actually proposed to her on a bus between Bath and Shepton Mallet.

Presenter16:47

And she said, I'll accept that I will not marry you unless and until you have actually given a recital at the Wigmore Hall, because you're not just going to mess around arranging bits of music, you are going to become a professional pianist. Yes, and that was your London debut.

Presenter17:02

And I'm interjecting at this point to point out that that rhapsody on the theme of Paganini, that variation was played by Vladimir Askonazi with the London Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter17:14

So you began your very successful concert career. You played a lot at the proms and then of course a lot of recording and broadcasting. A great deal of your professional career has been devoted to musical lectures. How did those start? I think they started by...

Presenter17:29

Jean, my wife, and my realizing that quite honestly, the nervous strain of trying to

Presenter17:35

Keep up this concert performance was gradually killing me. I think largely because I'd started so late.

Presenter17:44

It meant that my repertoire was always practically being learnt in public. You know, I mean, instead of letting things mature in one's brain, one was having to mug things up terribly quickly, and this is an awful strain.

Presenter17:56

And I think that though I applaud her for making me go back to the piano, I was very glad when she noticed how

Presenter18:03

green about the gills I was always before going onstage and I thought of uh some way of getting round this and this idea of talking about the lives of the composers came to us.

Presenter18:15

But I didn't want just to do what I'd done in the army, which was to sort of busk the talk, you know, do a little ad-lib chat and say, you know, this is how it went. So we actually employed a script writer whose name is Jim Douglas Henry, who's done a lot of film documentary work on television, and he writes the scripts. Jean is the tape recordist. She operates the backstage orchestra. Yes. And I talk and play. And we've been taking these things all around England now for the last two or three years. And we travel sometimes as much as seven or eight hundred miles in a week. I don't even call it lecture recital now. I call them concert biographies. I think lecture recital sounds really rather dull. And you've done a lot of broadcasting in programs like record review and panel shows. Call the tune. That was the sound radio one you did with it. That was the radio quiz. That was the original music quiz, yes.

Joseph Cooper19:03

Never

Presenter19:08

And of course on television now you've had a great success in In Face the Music. You've just started a new series. Yes. Let's have record number six.

Presenter19:18

Well, this is actually this is a little bit of the opera Arabella by Strauss.

Presenter20:25

These are della casa as Richard Strauss's Arabella.

Presenter20:30

Now on this desert island

Presenter20:31

All on your own.

Presenter20:33

How are you going to manage?

Presenter20:35

You do a lot of sailing, Joe, don't you? Yes, very keen on sailing. Could you build a boat?

Presenter20:40

Mm.

Presenter20:42

I dare say I could. Are you a good cook?

Presenter20:47

Um, well, I'm a very good cook with a tin open.

Presenter20:51

And I'm let's get back to music.

Presenter20:55

Nothing more to say. Record number seven.

Presenter20:59

Well, the record number seven is the Schumann Fantasy, and I would like to take a record of someone like Richter playing it, who plays it absolutely immaculately. And, you know, I don't feel any grievance about it. I mean, there are people who cannot play tennis without serving double force. I cannot play the coda and not split a few notes. Richter plays it absolutely beautifully, and so this is the one I should like to take.

Presenter21:59

Richter playing the closing passage of the second movement of the Schumann fantasy. Now we've come to your last record. What's that? Well, it's the Beethoven number four piano concerto, which has always been a very great favourite of mine. I think it was Dame Mara Hess playing the number four at the Colston Hall of Bristol that first made me fall in love with it. Is she playing it on this record? No, she's not, because unfortunately there's no extant recording of her playing the number four, but I have chosen one which I think is as good as anybody's in the world, and that is Gillel's.

Presenter23:33

The closing passage of the Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 4 with Gillels as soloist.

Presenter23:39

If you could take only one of the eight records you've chosen, which would it be?

Presenter23:43

I think for sentimental reasons it would be the 18th variation of Rachmaninoff.

Presenter23:49

And one luxury to take with you?

Presenter23:52

I take my dummy keyboard.

Presenter23:55

You can have a real piano if you like. Yes, but you see, I can't tune a piano, and the piano would go very much out of tune. And I think that with the dummy keyboard, I have got perfect pitch, so that I can imagine all the performances. And what's more, I can keep my technique in order for the time when I'm rescued when that ship appears on the horizon. Right. And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare. I think I've thought about this a great deal, and I've come to the conclusion that I should enjoy most a collection of poems called Come Hither by Walter de la Maire. It's a very comprehensive collection, and incidentally, it includes a few poems by Shakespeare. Well, you've already got Shakespeare on the island. We don't bother him, it's just so many people asked for him. He's been installed. He's been already there under that palm tree.

Joseph Cooper24:37

Yeah.

Joseph Cooper24:38

He is broad.

Joseph Cooper24:39

Yeah.

Presenter24:41

And thank you, Joseph Cooper, for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. And thank you very much for inviting me. Goodbye, everyone.